Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria

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Featured Article promoted in 2013, nominated for deletion[edit]

2012 tour of She Has a Name, Featured Article promoted in 2013, has been nominated for deletion.

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2012 tour of She Has a Name.

Thank you,

Cirt (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Suggested step in review process[edit]

I suggested some talk page review as part of the GA review, but because there is currently no talk page criteria for Featured Articles, it seems we couldn't currently change anything. As such, I'm now suggesting some sort of minimal review of the talk page as part of the FA review. Mark Hurd (talk) 04:17, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Mark Hurd, updating class entries is done if the article passes, but if the article doesn't pass we don't necessarily know what its class should be - we have had start-class articles nominated, for example, and some projects have B-class or A-class criteria or reviews that others don't. As to topics having priority levels set: as editors commented at the GA discussion, this is not feasible for all topics, and as some said there I don't really see a need for this. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:27, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


Where appropriate[edit]

"where appropriate" links to an essay "Wikipedia:When to cite". I think this is a mistake it should like to policy (WP:UNSOURCED) Wikipedia:Verifiability#Responsibility for providing citations. The links in the criteria ought to link to policy not to how to pages and essays. -- PBS (talk) 09:23, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

high-quality is undefined and non-consensual[edit]

Too paraphrase Humpty Dumpty in Through the Looking Glass

    "I don't know what you mean by 'high-quality' " Alice said.
    Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
    "But 'high-quality' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
    "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
    "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
    "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

Unlike the "Reliable sources" the phrase "high-quality" does not appear in Verifiability policy and (as far as I am aware) it not defined in the guideline Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Leaving it in this project page, allows it to be used as a bludgeon without needing to define what it means, because after all "Aunty knows best" and "it means just what Aunty choose it to mean—neither more nor less". If there is a disagreement over the suitability of the inclusion of a source and "high-quality" is invoked then its evocation tends to be non-consensual.

So I have been bold and removed the phrase. -- PBS (talk) 09:23, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

If you can provide an example of a FAC where it has been misunderstood, mis-applied, or "used as a bludgeon" at FAC, we could have a discussion about whether to delete the long-standing, well-applied phrase. I've restored it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:27, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
If it is understood then please explain what it means. -- PBS (talk) 09:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia I did a search on high-quality prefix:Wikipedia:Featured article candidates the second on in the list gives an example of the phrase being used by you without you defining what you mean: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/German Type UB I submarine/archive1 "Highest quality sources are required for Featured articles ... We need independent review of ship articles, but we get ship editors consistently supporting ship articles, with little independent review-- sourcing still needs to be resolved." If that was to be written as "Reliable sources are required for Featured articles ..." then people would have something defined to discuss. That "editors here have yet to establish that the authors of this website are published experts", is a question of reliable sources not "Highest quality sources". The whole push of your argument is from an intangible start and you continue it further down the same page where you write "Are high-quality reliable sources consulted?" why not ask the question "Are all the sources cited reliable ones?". That is something covered by policy your question is not. Ealdgyth make the point on that page "about a year ago, sourcing requirements for FAs went from 'reliable' to 'high quality reliable'." -- PBS (talk) 10:08, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I've read Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/German Type UB I submarine/archive1, and do not see a problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
That is the problem! You ask the questing is it a high-quality source. You do not ask the question is it a reliable source. The answer you get back is yes I think it is a high quality source. as high quality is not defined the person is under no obligation to say more. If you asked the question is it a reliable source you would be encouraging the person who replies to explain how they think the source meets the requirement of a reliable source. The point is that high quality is a distraction. -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
If you read that FAC closely, Sandy FIRST asked if the source was reliable, and then about whether it was the highest quality. Karanacs (talk) 20:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I've worked to the principle that "high quality" relates to the definition of a Featured Article, which, as per the top of the page, says that the article should be "distinguished by professional standards of writing, presentation, and sourcing." Featured Articles are intended to exemplify our very best work and it seems a reasonable requirement to me. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:21, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Reliable source has a specific definition and so when there is a discussion about whether a sources is reliable it is something that can usually be agreed upon (although occasionally there will be disagreements particularly when the source is a person). Your comment does not answer what is a high-quality reliable source as opposed to a reliable source. Also is there an example of a reliable source being rejected not because it is unreliable but because it quality is not high enough? -- PBS (talk) 10:41, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
If you're uncertain about the meaning of the words "high quality", I'd recommend consulting a dictionary; there are a few available on-line. Hchc2009 (talk) 11:08, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for that advise, but I don't think it is much help because the OED states
"With the sense ‘having, characterized by, or operating with a high degree or amount of (the specified quality or activity)’." and the examples it gives of usage are:
"high-quality adj."
  • "1881 E. Matheson Aid Bk. Engin. Enterprise Abroad II. xv. 40 To make the pieces lighter by the use of high quality material (such as steel), or by subdivision, to make them lighter because more numerous."
  • "1910 Westm. Gaz. 21 Apr. 12/1 Until plenty of high-quality beet is procurable."
  • "1948 Wireless World Jan. 2/1 Most high-quality radio receiver units will provide an output of well over 4 volts."
  • "2012 Independent 28 May 21/2 Colour coded chopping boards plus four high-quality, full tang knives."
None of which explain what is meant by high-quality here. Do you know of an example of a reliable source being rejected not because it is unreliable but because it quality is not high enough? -- PBS (talk) 12:58, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
One example would be sourcing medical content to websites like Mayo Clinic instead of recent journal reviews when those are available. Another would be sourcing any article to generic websites, when journal reviews are available (I know that happened in earlier versions of The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (film), and if the sourcing had not been upgraded to higher quality journal articles, that article would not have likely passed FAC). I think the greater question remains: do you have any example of where this requirement has created a problem? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
(1) I have no idea what "Mayo Clinic" so please explain is it a reliable source? (2) what are "generic websites" and are they reliable? I think the first example I gave above with the use of high quality instead of reliable source created a problem, but you have said that you do "not see a problem". -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
That a source be reliable is a minimum standard. But obviously there is a spectrum of different quality sources for a given claim. FAs should use the highest possible quality of reliable sources. A competent editor can be expected to realize which sources are better sources than others for a given claim, and if there is doubt about it it can be decided by consensus on the talkpage or during the review.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:42, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Also helps if you ... use the archives. Look at Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria/Archive 9 where the addition was discussed (to death) and dealt with. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you I had already looked through that and I do not think it was discussed to death, indeed it was hardly discussed at all. -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I write a lot of history articles. I could source them to a book written by in 1910, or a book written in 2013. Both are reliable sources. The latter is, quite obviously, a higher quality - more information has been discovered about the topic in the century between those works. Another frequent choice: a book about the topic written by a lawyer and published in 2010 by a popular press ... or a book published by a university press in 2000 and written by a professor whose focus of work is this topic. Both are reliable sources; the one published by the university press and written by the professor is likely the higher quality source. I could find a dozen newspaper articles that talk about topic X ... or I could use a book written by an engineer and published by a popular press. The latter is probably the higher quality source for the type of articles I write. Karanacs (talk) 18:13, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the variable quality of reliable sources is an issue across all sorts of fields. And we can't assume editors will pick the higher quality choices without having it in the criteria. I've seen material sourced to a popular magazine review of an academic book, rather than to the book itself. The editor who chooses that clearly knows a better source is available. I've even passed GAs when I knew there were better sources, because GA only requires RS without reference to quality. So the requirement does matter. --RL0919 (talk) 21:58, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks @Ealdgyth for the link to the Archives. There was a clear consensus in 2009 that "high-quality" was an important element of Featured Article criteria. I agree with that result's setting a high bar for Featured Articles. SteveMcCluskey (talk) 03:57, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@Karanacs this is not necessarily true it depends. Take for example the decision by the ONDB not to to include so much information about families compared to the older DNB articles, or the fact that they do not place their citations inline as is done with many 100 year old DNB articles. So for both information about a subjects marriages etc, and for information on the primary source or the secondary source used for a specific fact, the older DNB may be the more suitable. There is also the issue of availability and the ability of readers to check if the cited work supports the fact. Clearly when the ONDB and the DNB disagree then one ought to use the ONDB for all the reasons you have put forward (see for example Apocryphal biographies in the Dictionary of National Biography), but the ONDB has restricted access while the DNB is now fully on line at Wikisource, if the same fact is supported by both which is the better sources to cite for Wikipedia readers? But the main point about high quality is that is is not defined. You have taken it on your self to define high quality in a certain way, as far as I am aware no such definition exists on Wikiepdia. However WP:SOURCES covers the issue so AFAICT there is no need for "high quality" before "reliable sources" as a link to WP:SOURCES covers what you discuss under "high quality". -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree that the modifier "high-quality" is important. The fact that it is not defined is not a problem - it depends on the topic, and is subject to consensus like so many other things. Any attempt at a strict definition would turn out problematic in practice. A FA should be expected to use the best possible sources for the given topic, no less.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The terminology "high-quality" should be removed. I think it is understood that all assertions should be adequately supported by sources. Sourcing is of paramount importance, but there are still other factors that are important in constructing a good-quality article. In fact, just because something is sourced, is not a conclusive argument that it should be in an article. It is understood that sources must be adequate. But a "Featured article" is one that excels in ways that can't easily be defined for all cases. I have seen "Featured articles" that contain well-sourced information that in my opinion did not belong in the article. Therefore I consider the terminology "high-quality" to be overemphasis. Bus stop (talk) 00:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I dont see any relation between the premises of that argument (not all sourced information should be included + sources is not the only important aspect of article quality) and the conclusion (therefore we need not require high quality sources for FA).·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:17, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
It goes without saying that sources must be good quality. I don't think it is necessarily the quality of the sources that makes an article that excels. Certainly a Featured article shouldn't use poor quality sources. But an article can for instance use excellent quality sources to go beyond an appropriate scope or to give undue weight to one area of an article. These are the problems I have encountered with articles of supposedly "Featured article" quality. An article should be "lean". The reader doesn't have all day to wade through an overly long article. So, I see this emphasis on "high-quality" sources to be misplaced emphasis. We should be thinking about many things. Bus stop (talk) 01:43, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
There still is no coherence in the argument. Listing "high quality sources" as a requirement does not mean that this is the only requirement and that we shouldnt think about the other requirements as well. An article that doesnt use the best possible sources for the topic should not be an FA, that is why we need to include this as one of the criteria. Noone is sayin that using excellent sources automatically makes an article FA - but it is one of the necessary requirements.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 01:47, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Is sourcing really the problem that articles have to overcome to attain Featured article status? In my admittedly limited experience it seems to me that the shape and balance of an article is of utmost importance. It is easy to fill out one area of an article and leave another area underdeveloped. Bus stop (talk) 01:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Do you read the comments that you respond to? ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:06, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
We don't know what "high-quality" means. We do know what reliable sources means. Why add a term that is not defined for Wikipedia purposes? Where do we find a definition for "high-quality" sources as distinct from "reliable sources"? Bus stop (talk) 02:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Through consensus at the relevant talkpage and in the context of the relevant topic.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 02:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • +1 to what Sandy is saying. Tony (talk) 02:49, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • A Featured Article, as a representative of "our finest work" should be using the highest-quailty sources, for that topic, as we can muster. The term high quality has a regular meaning that serves our purposes, so we don't need a Wikipedia-specific definition. It is also not the only aspect of an article to be judged, and certainly not judged in isolation, so I don't see what the fuss is about. Imzadi 1979  03:27, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Per various comments above, especially maunus, I believe we should leave "high quality" in the criteria. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:35, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

@Imzadi1979 Two points first of all I personally do not think that featured articles necessarily represent "our finest work", I think that comes from the breadth and not necessarily depth. For example I have been writing articles on the movement of armies in the Napoleonic Wars. The big advantage of such articles today over similar articles written 10 years ago, is the breadth of other articles that have now been written allows for hyper linking to give a far better overview. The breadth of topics automatically increases the depth of an individual article thorough hyperlinks to articles that only use reliable sources and meet policy requirements, which in my opinion is "our finest work". A Featured Article, as a representative of "our finest work" should be using the highest-quailty sources, for that topic, as we can muster. The wording is not "highest-quailty sources" but "high-quality reliable sources". Can you name an article where editors have gone "I am going to remove a source that meets the requirements of WP:SOURCES and replace it with a less reliable source" and other editors have gone "well OK then as this is not a featured article it does not matter if unreliable sources are used". Of course not! The point being that if one follows the advise in WP:SOURCE and WP:RS the one uses the most suitable sources available in any article not just featured articles so the phrase high-quality is unnecessary and just clutter. -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

The truth is that most objective editors strive to use reliable sources to meet the policy requirement: to "Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation" (WP:CHALLENGE) That is a totally different requirement from "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate;". What does "claims" mean what does "high-quality" I think that this clause would be far better phrased in such a way that it unambiguously met the requirements of WP:CHALLENGE -- something that a featured article editor should find easy to pen. -- PBS (talk) 20:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

While the phrase "high quality" is in the criteria it is possible for a reviewer to challenge sources on quality, and not just reliability. If for example an article about a scientific topic is sourced to reliable science journalism instead of to actual scientific papers or academically published books on the topic, the reviewer may object and say that for the article to pass review it must incorporate the highest quality sources. If the phrase is removed, then the reviewer will not have policy backing for requesting the article to do a better job at including the highest quality sources, and the nominator can argue that sources being reliable is the only requirement. Again, the policy requirements are minimum standards for any article, if the FA standard is not higher than the minimum standard then there is not much point in having FAs. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I would in fact suggest making the criterion even stricter: We should also require the article to include as broad a selection of high quality sources as possible. It should not be possible to pass an FA that leaves out prominent high quality sources from the literature section. This is the same way that an article will be rejected on a journal for failure to site broadly from the relevant literature.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 20:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Maunus, your second point is covered by the wording in the criteria, "... a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:58, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Good point, it is. Doesnt that almost also cover the quality though?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
No, they were intended as two separate things. It was quite a debate when Awadewit pushed it through, and you can read the archive that Ealdgyth linked. I'm speaking as a former delegate, in terms of how it is enforced at FAC -- one thing is quality of sources, another is whether a thorough survey of the literature (as in, to locate those sources) has been done. I don't know how well this is enforced at FAC these days, but the intent was two separate items, as I understood and enforced it when delegate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:35, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

@·maunus when asked above "Where do we find a definition for "high-quality" sources as distinct from "reliable sources"?" you replied Through consensus at the relevant talkpage and in the context of the relevant topic. This contradicts your more recent statement While the phrase "high quality" is in the criteria it is possible for a reviewer to challenge sources on quality, and not just reliability. because you have said that "high quality" means in the words of Humpty Dumpty "just what [a random local consensus among a few editors] choose it to mean—neither more nor less." — This is contary to WP:Local consensus "participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope", in this case the wording in WP:V.

It is much clearer and within the framework of WP:Local consensus to meet your objectives by using the wording in WP:CHALLENGE and and the definition in sources WP:SOURCES. "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. ... If available, academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources, such as in history, medicine, and science", rather than using an undefined phrase "high quality". -- PBS (talk) 14:10, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

That is total nonsense. Local consensus always decides how a given policy is interpreted in a given case. There is nothing strange in that at all. It is always local consensus that decides whether a given source is reliable for example, thereis no strict rule that can define what a reliable source is outside of the context of a specific claim in a specific article and a specific local consensus about its reliability. Furtemore FA criteria is not a policy, it is a set of criteria for awarding FA status within a review process. The FA criteria, and the way to interpret them in a specific case are decided by local consensus in the review and they work independently from the policies that decide the minimum criteria for what an article needs to be like.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

What does "claims" mean in the sentence "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources ..."? -- PBS (talk) 14:10, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

"Claims" means assertions made in the article. I can understand questioning "high-quality", since there are Wikipedia-specific questions of judgment there, but "claims" is being used in its ordinary English meaning. --RL0919 (talk) 14:33, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
"Reliable sources" is sufficient. Our wording does not have to say "high-quality reliable sources". Our wording presently reads: "Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate". Strictly speaking the wording "high-quality" is superfluous. We are looking for sources appropriately supportive of an assertion (or "claim"). The only exception to this, that I can think of, is the instance in which sources contradict one another, or are at odds with one another, to one degree or another. To properly word our article we would need to evaluate the quality of different sources in order to give proper WP:WEIGHT to each source. Bus stop (talk) 17:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I disagree that the qualifier is superfluous. A featured article is supposed to reflect wikipedia's best work, and this phrase is showing that as part of "best work" we mean the best sources for that topic. It can't be more specific, because each topic area is different. It shouldn't be less specific ("reliable sources" only) because no one really wants to see a history article sourced exclusively to newspaper articles instead of scholarly histories. Karanacs (talk) 18:04, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
That is why I am using the words "appropriately supportive". I think "high-quality" means The New York Times as opposed to The New York Post. Bus stop (talk) 20:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
"appropriately supportive" doesn't mean anything to me - I would just interpret that as the source supports the claim. That is not good enough for a featured article, at least in the majority of articles about history. "High-quality" means more than that. And depending on the topic, it might mean NYT instead of NY Post, or it might mean neither is appropriate. Karanacs (talk) 20:55, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

OK I have laid out my wears and I am disappointed that at the moment there is not a consensus for change. So I see little point in continuing this discussion at the moment. However consensus can change and I hope that in the future this can be revised with an outcome that favours wording more in harmony with WP:V. -- PBS (talk) 12:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with PBS that the phrase is in need of further definition, and I dislike the tone of this discussion. It seems to me to be a rather simple matter of putting some of the points raised here into a footnote or separate document, if they are not already covered by WP:RS or WP:V. If they are covered by WP:RS, then there is indeed no need for the additional phrase, "high quality" in that sentence. Samsara 06:16, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

OPINION: "High-quality" is fine and necessary as a check and balance in the Featured Article criteria, a phrase that is easily understood and at the same time open to interpretation on a per case basis. Attempting to codify overly restrictive interpretations of Wikipedia's broad principles, policies and guidelines only leads to more forms of wikilawyering, and less reliance on actual discussion to resolve issues. One of the critical Five Pillars remains: "Wikipedia has no firm rules." --Tsavage (talk) 08:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed on the last point - which means that extra phrase is not needed. Samsara 14:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

the meta:cite format is recommended[edit]

Perhaps I am being overly critical- but what does that mean. Shouldn't it be deleted?

  • It seems to me that, at the heavy end of Wikipediaa, there are two styles of references- the legacy style, and the Harvard sfn style. the wording is recommended suggests that unknown method 3 (meta:cite )is to be preferred over and above the former.
  • I followed the link- it seems to be a page on the Media Wiki cite explaining how to add the cite function to a personally hosted wiki using a legacy distro. The section that might have contained some info on style was correctly hat-tagged as having being over technical (read: gobbledy-gook). It might be worthy as a {{efn}} but it seems symptomatic of the habit of straying off focus- and not challenging the work of legacy editors who only put it there to demonstrate they had read around the topic.

Discuss. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 11:24, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

It says "for articles with footnotes, the meta:cite format is recommended" (emphasis added). There are other ways to create footnotes besides using "<ref>" tags, such as using the {{ref}} template. Referring to "meta:cite" is basically recommending to use "<ref>" tags instead of one of the less common alternatives. I do agree that the link is not particularly useful. It appears that the target page on Meta has been redirected, and formerly had details more similar to what is at our Help:Footnotes here on en-wiki. I'd suggest updating the link to just go to Help:Footnotes. --RL0919 (talk) 15:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I would simply remove the whole meta:cite phrase after the semicolon. The linked info is too technical as mentioned, and the vast majority of editors at this stage will already have a basic knowledge of referencing and a preferred personal style anyway; they don't need that advice (atleast not as part of FA-criteria). GermanJoe (talk) 15:57, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

... and not challenging the work of legacy editors who only put it there to demonstrate they had read around the topic ... This is the oddest comment, and it looks so far like there is little understanding in that statement about why that clause was added. In particular, well before the page it links to generated to gobbledy-gook. I suggest that people seeking to remove something might want to review archives to understand why it's there. The bottom line, in spite of all that, is that GermanJoe gets it pretty much right. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:40, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks SandyGeorgia, I will go ahead and remove it. You were interested in my comment- perhaps I should explain. I am down to do an edit-a-thon to a learned society of mathematicians in a months time. The questions that one is asked at these events can be banale or they can be challenging- preparation is essential just in case, I have an hour to convert a wiki-newbie with multiple PhDs into a committed expert editor. Having looked at the the help files, and then at the manual of style, it is hard to see any real pattern. The next step is to look at FAC reviews - and the criteria themselves. All the time keeping the focus on improving maths, and maths biography articles. Take my point, when looking at a help article I am assessing it from the point of view of my mythical student, and not searching for a tutorial or essay- when looking at a MOS article I am looking for mandatory instructions, recommendations, prohibitions and not rambling discussions. The fact I enjoy writing rambling text, histories and philosophies- diving to archives and chasing the latest hare means I am as prone as anyone to lose focus. Researching how we arrived at this point is off-focus. There are big questions that need asking elsewhere. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 23:53, 4 March 2015 (UTC)