Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies

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Sherbourne Health Centre[edit]

Not sure if this is the right place to give a headsup, but Sherbourne Health Centre was newly created today, about a health care facility in Toronto, Canada, which provides healthcare and services with a focus on the LGBT community, especially youth, among other things. A trigger-happy editor has twice nominated the article for deletion while its creator is still applying better sources, and it's now at AFD. Am hoping that by bringing this here, someone could possibly help or point in the right direction for categorizing the article appropriately and improving it. Admittedly, the article needs work, but deleting it outright shouldn't be the answer. Echoedmyron (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Why not just delete it? 172.56.35.90 (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

It certainly doesn't meet the speedy delete criteria. I'll comment to the AFD tomorrow.Naraht (talk) 22:21, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately, in the interim the article's creator appears to have panicked in trying to save the article, and has been blocked for sockpuppetry, which certainly doesn't help their cause. It is certainly a worthwhile organization but establishing notability may prove to be difficult. Echoedmyron (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Worthwhile to what and how exactly? This is surely why encyclopedic notability is difficult to establish! 172.56.35.90 (talk) 16:04, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Executive Order 13672[edit]

Hey, I'm not normally a Wikipedia contributor at all, and I have no idea if I'm doing this right. If I'm not, i apologize. I thought there were normally Talk pages behind articles, but when I looked for one on this page, it just showed some related projects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13672

This seemed like the most relevant project, so I'm posting here.

Anyway, the page has a "Reactions" section that consists almost wholly of religious conservatives attacking the order and sometimes attacking trans people as well. Obviously, this didn't strike me as neutral.

I hope this is helpful to someone. Thanks.

Hi - you can add content to the relevant talk page by clicking "New Section" in the tab at the top. Funcrunch (talk) 04:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Support sought[edit]

I've just added a section on Sexuality to David Thoreau's page because there was absolutely nothing in the article, which I found astounding -- unless of course it was deleted some time ago. Ditto for the article on Thomas Eakins: also incredible given that his sexuality is Topic A in Eakins scholarship. I'm reasonably happy with the Eakins entry now. But you may want to keep on eye on both.

Main reason for posting is: a few months ago I wanted to add a wee mention in the article on Gary Cooper that he had shared an apartment with the flamboyant homosexual Anderson Lawler who played a significant role in introducing him to Hollywood society. There was no way I could get it in without it being deleted: if you want a wry laugh, and have the time, you can read the entire sorry saga on the article's Talk page.

Another problem I had was trying to get a proper good page up for Scotty Bowers. The current one defaults to the book, and it's poor. I wrote a terrific entry but it was deleted. Again, the entire saga is on the article's Talk page.

Does anyone want to provide some support to turn these pages around? Engleham (talk) 13:56, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

  • You are a homosexual Wikipedia editor
  • This is the page homosexual Wikipedia editors can come to, whenever their insistence on reflecting the homosexual pov meets with any resistance, and here they can canvass and recruit other homosexual editors in order to go back into "the battle" with, at least, the appearance of a popular majority
  • Is that pretty much it?

208.54.37.225 (talk) 14:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Actually, this page is open to all, and includes people who are interested in issues surrounding homosexuality, regardless of their orientation or beliefs. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Rowan Blanchard[edit]

Rowan Blanchard, a 14yo actress, has made somewhat ambiguous statements about her sexuality and reliable sources have picked this up. There is an edit discussion about what or if that should be included in the article at Talk:Rowan Blanchard#Concerning edits about Blanchard's sexual preference. Also how to categorize the article. This could use some more input by people more knowledgeable about how to handle this type of issue. Geraldo Perez (talk) 01:45, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Support vs Distortion[edit]

I asked up-thread for some Watch support in my attempt to ensure a few articles were balanced. This included adding the Anderson Lawler to the Gary Cooper article - this time in an innocuous way, without any reference that something something sexual may have occurred between them. As you can see on the Talk Page for the article, even this is being rejected. So, by posting here I hoped that a few people who viewed the change positively would go across and support the new inclusion.

So what happens? Trystan posts a link to WP:CANVASS, and then, with stunning rudeness, shuts down the thread, as if no one might wish to further comment. Well, golly gee: oddly enough, I at least do. The Canvas page states: "In general, it is perfectly acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, provided that it is done with the intent to improve the quality of the discussion by broadening participation to more fully achieve consensus. However, canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is considered inappropriate. This is because it compromises the normal consensus decision-making process, and therefore is generally considered disruptive behavior. There's a fundamental problem here with the wording. EVERYONE brings a personal agenda to Wikipedia - it's what drives motivation, and seeking support for an edit on a gay WikpediaProject page, or Christian WikipediaProject page or whatever, implicitly means you want people attitudinally skewed in that direction to influence the outcome. Yes, ideally for the purposes of arriving at a more balanced article. On the Cooper article presently, what I believe is happening is a consensus of bigots. So, some gay skew to drag that consensus into more more neutral territory is needed. That's why I requested some supporting comments "in some form" if you agreed with the suggestion. Is this unreasonable? Or is this project page being white-anted by straights with an agenda, and the anonymous poster who earlier queried my Gay Card credentials is rightly suspicious of posters here? To the unsigned user who snarkingly queried 'is for my morale': try posting without a sock. Engleham (talk) 04:39, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Yes, actually, what you did was off. If you came here and asked us to voice our opinion on the matter, that would be appropriate... but you came here and asked us to voice your opinion. That falls under the canvassing concern. --Nat Gertler (talk) 07:06, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, I'm sorry if my desire was misinterpreted. I simply sought input from a gay perspective regarding my proposed edit on the Cooper Talk Page. Given the edit, it would be reasonable to assume that such gay perspective opinion would be likely to be in agreement with the edit *in some form* at least. If not, fine. But at least there would be some alternative opinions. I phrased the request in a casual manner and presumed people would make reasonable assumptions, and not be pedantic, but clearly not. Finally, I note User: Trystan who sought to shut down the discussion isn't even listed as a member on the Project Page, and the other unsigned replies have only ever posted once. So I'm beginning to think that this is a Project that's under Watch, but not by gay people or their sympathisers. That goddam Gay Agenda: it's like the Trump Campaign with better hair. Engleham (talk) 07:22, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
You're still here? Well if you don't like us non-gay editors being able to read this page and freely comment maybe it's you who are in the wrong place? 172.56.34.26 (talk) 13:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Hi Engleham. Sorry if my hatting of that portion of the above thread came across as a bit brusque. I did deliberately limit the hatting to a portion of the conversation only, so that the rest of the thread could continue. Canvassing is something that gets taken quite seriously on Wikipedia; I wouldn't disagree that sometimes it is taken too seriously. But I think the general principle, that invitations to provide input to a discussion should be neutral and not presuppose support for a particular position, is a good one.--Trystan (talk) 15:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
Please do go on. Because minorities always adore those from the majority who invite themselves in, and inform the untermenschen of their opinions. Policing them? That's even better. Because it's not like you would have anywhere else to go. Engleham (talk) 23:09, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
You seem to have some confusion about what this page is; this isn't some sort of "gay editors discussion spot", it's for people who are involved in editing LGBT-related articles, something that Trystan definitely qualifies as. I have no idea whether he would qualify for the other, and I suspect that you don't either; trying to snark him away from conversation on the basis of your assumption of his sexuality is wrong in multiple ways. He is welcome here, and has been participating on this talk page for years. Did he squash a canvassing attempt? Yes, because that's the appropriate thing to do under our guidelines, whether those guidelines are convenient to your goals or not. Yes, he's not listed as a member of the project... and neither are you. "Membership" is not required to participate on this talk page. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:48, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
@Engleham: your comment white-anted by straights with an agenda is rather out of line. This project is (1) not just for LGBT people and (2) not just for gay people. Those last two letters exist for a reason. Any project will have its followers who disagree with it (e.g., WP:XX has plenty). But accusing editors who disagree with you of being "straights with an agenda" is out of line. If you have a dispute with one editor, go to WP:DNR. If you have an issue on an article, start an RFC. If people still disagree with you, you just have to go with it. That's how it works here, for better or worse. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:19, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
"your comment white-anted by straights with an agenda is rather out of line." Everyone has an agenda - whether aware of it or not. "this isn't some sort of "gay editors discussion spot" Well there clearly needs to be one. Because minorities only drive genuine change when they unite in anger. ACTUP proved that forever. Handholding overly-inclusive care groups of trigger-sensitive flowers get nowhere. Including on a team-built Wiki where it only takes two or three bigots to stonewall a positive change. And more than 36 hours has past and not one outsider has contributed a comment to a Gary Cooper Talk page on a simple edit that one would reasonably expect gay people with a passion for bringing balance to articles would have contributed to – in whatever form the original request for support was phrased. Engleham (talk) 07:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I've had a read through of the discussion on the Cooper talk page. The good thing is that the sources were explored and relevant quotes examined, so none of that gets lost if anyone wants to refer back to it. The unfortunate truth about people's love lives before the 1980s, is that it gets incredibly hard to find sources for LGBT relationships unless the subject spelt it out in a later autobiography, or were accused either in court or in the press of a gay sex scandal. Mentions in other people's biographies or accounts would have to be much more than hearsay to make it into a good quality article on Wikipedia. One unfortunate aspect to the Cooper discussion is that Cooper's love life was quickly marginalized as controversial, meaning that it then became almost impossible to use the quotes from the sources unless there was overwhelming proof. For a biography of dead person, there is more tolerance for information about their love life, rather than sticking to standards that are more relevant to biographies of living people, this point could have been made more strongly.
I suggest you leave Cooper unless you find new sources to discuss. Consider looking at improving other articles where sources for LGBT material are a lot stronger. There's plenty to do without having to overturn entrenched views.
Take care to avoid using any language that might be read by others as an allegation of homophobic motivation, this always gets jumped on and makes further collegiate discussion impossible. It may be worth you dropping by our m:LGBT user group to keep an eye open for collaborative projects over the summer. -- (talk) 09:32, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for actually commenting on what I asked. Appreciated. As you may have seen, I've given up suggesting anything sexual between Lawler and Cooper, but now wish to post a line stating that there was housesharing and best friendship between them, appropriately referenced. I'd welcome your opinion on Talk:Gary_Cooper on whether you think the suggested sentences I've provided should be included, or any other thoughts you may have. Yes, will keep on eye on other stuff. Hollywood stars aren't really my thing, but this entry just seemed wanting. Oh, and naturally I welcome anyone else commenting on the Cooper entry on its talk page. For gaining consensus it would be helpful if you could precede your comments with the words INCLUDE or EXCLUDE. Engleham (talk) 12:16, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
"Well there clearly needs to be one. Because minorities only drive genuine change when they unite in anger." I would strongly disagree with those assertions of 'genuine change', perhaps we ought to reiterate what the NPOV policy actually means, and explicate to what extent Wikipedia's goals coincide or should be perceived to coincide with your "anger" which as Mr Spock would say is highly illogical 172.56.34.26 (talk) 14:27, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Permit me to quote you. As you so charmingly phrased it up-thread, in your entitled "non-gay editor" mindset: "You're still here?" Engleham (talk) 17:58, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Your comments are bordering on WP:HARASS. Stop addressing people's identities outside of the issue of POV. Should the voices of LGBTQ folks be considered a bit more thoughtfully here? Yes as they have experiences and knowledges on the topic that non-LGBTQ folks do not necessarily have. However, this project is not about or for gay users or LGBTQ users either... please stop ignoring the rest of us... much more than just "gay". It's about LGBT Studies and articles related to it. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:37, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
"Stop addressing people's identities...please stop ignoring the rest of us... much more than just "gay". Bless. Engleham (talk) 22:21, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Molly house at WP:PR[edit]

Mary Rozet Smith[edit]

I recently created an article on Mary Rozet Smith. I did not categorize her nor tag her for this project, though possibly that should be done in light of her 30+ year relationship with Jane Addams. My concern is that while we have Jane's voice on what their relationship was to her, we do not have Mary's that I have been able to find. Anyone have a perspective on how historic people should be treated in this situation? Thanks! SusunW (talk) 03:21, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Not sure about categories, as the test for those can be quite strict, but I would definitely go ahead and tag the article for this wiki project. The test for that is only whether or not the topic would be of interest to this project's participants, and I think it easily qualifies.--Trystan (talk) 23:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Trystan. That sounds logical. SusunW (talk) 00:02, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Reliable source for Tate Taylor?[edit]

Can someone please add a reliable reference saying that he is gay? I can't find one on google. If we can't find a reference, the LGBT categories should be removed. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 10:16, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I can't find any WP:RS for this either. Categories removed, per policy. -- The Anome (talk) 00:23, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Victoria A. Dooling[edit]

Of possible interest to some of you.Zigzig20s (talk) 13:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Guydykes and Girlfags[edit]

I've encountered these neologisms and learned their meanings only recently, but the concept (paradoxical as it seems) does seem to be notable in gender and LGBT studies. Guydykes and girlfags, by definition, do not identify as transgender, but eventually they may come to do so, or come to identify as genderqueer instead. There is certainly an element of gender or gender-role transgression in there. Girlfags may also enjoy performing femininity in an exaggerated drag queen style, i. e., like a faux queen. Can anyone help? I wasn't the one who wrote the article, but I just found it and I think Wikipedia should cover the concept in some form. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:28, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I've known of these terms for some time. I don't believe they are currently notable enough to merit a separate article. It would make more sense to possibly add them to one of the existing pages on gender. Funcrunch (talk) 21:55, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
The usual notability criteria apply here. Do you have suitable cites from multiple reliable sources to hand to demonstrate the notability of these terms? -- The Anome (talk) 22:00, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Funcrunch gets it. I said "cover the concept in some form". I neither insist on these exact terms (but there do not seem to be any better-known ones) nor on the necessity of a separate article. But the phenomenon exists, is interesting, has been commented on and that's why I think Wikipedia should mention it. The only reliable source in English I'm aware of is Janet Hardy's article in The Fair Observer. However, the German Wikipedia has an article with more citations, as I've found just now. I'm not very up to date on LGBT media such as magazines and books, so I'm not the best person for this job, but for example "Bijou", No. 29 (June 2014), a German magazine, has an article on p. 24 – there is even an English-language version available here, but I don't know if Bijou magazine counts as a RS. From reading this non-RS, mentions of the phenomenon go back to Magnus Hirschfeld, and it appears to me that "girlfags" (unlike "fag hags") and "guydykes" are definitely best thought of as some kind of genderqueer or gender variant ("transgender" in a broad sense), as most do not identify as fully cisgender. Maybe they could therefore be mentioned in the Genderqueer article. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:04, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
From the sound of this, I think you're probably right about this being a valid subtopic for genderqueer. -- The Anome (talk) 22:48, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
It has occurred to me that the phenomenon that a female-assigned person feels that their desire for men is like that of a gay man and may even fantasise about being a gay man having sex with other men, but at the same time identifies not as transgender but as a (cisgender) woman, and is quite happy being a woman – and conversely in a male-assigned person –, could mean that the person's gender identity could be described as something like bigender (or multi-gender) specifically. It does seem from the Girlfags website, especially the survey mentioned there, like most "girlfags"/"guyduykes" do accept that they could be described as some kind of genderqueer (if not outright transsexual/transgender) and many do identify as such. The cis/trans distinction is certainly muddled by such experiences. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:18, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DataLounge[edit]

There is currently a deletion discussion of the article DataLounge at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DataLounge. -- Softlavender (talk) 09:37, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

Featured list candidate[edit]

More input is needed on this FLC. Thanks. Lapadite (talk) 17:46, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

"GBT men" in military[edit]

I made a comment over at Sexual orientation and military sources regarding on the description of this file two weeks ago, with no response. I think it's a pretty awkward issue and would like some input. ~Mable (chat) 20:40, 10 February 2016 (UTC)