Wikipedia talk:Ignore all rules
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This page was nominated for deletion on 26 March 2008. The result of the discussion was Speedy keep. |
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Contents
Changes[edit]
Can people please stop messing around with a one sentence major policy and propose changes here first? --NeilN talk to me 01:22, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Come ON! ... Staszek Lem (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Jokes aside, it is way no longer a major policy. Pray tell me how many a time you told a newcomer to use it? In my practice I was always telling NOT to (mis)use it. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- I rarely advise new editors to use it... but I do remind experienced editors that they can use it. Blueboar (talk) 02:09, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yep, it's a good reminder that one does not have to learn wikilawyering unless there is a controversy. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:30, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- I rarely advise new editors to use it... but I do remind experienced editors that they can use it. Blueboar (talk) 02:09, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
I think that it has an immense impact by merely existing. North8000 (talk) 14:50, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- What is this discussion about? Should the page be protected or frozen, as is, if some editors are intent on changing it by themselves? It is the fifth pillar of Wikipedia, and is actually a non-policy policy, and, as the fifth pillar of this entire encyclopedic project, has a long history and certainly has its uses. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:52, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
I read it as saying that too often people are making big changes to a core policy without any discussion. North8000 (talk) 14:58, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- That's what the pillar protects against. There are so many rules and regs being written and voted upon that only one or maybe a handful of people are aware of each individual change or even of major policy shifts, and this pillar is a protection against anyone using the policies and guidelines for their own agenda, especially those which are little known or worded in a wiki-lawyering way. Enough people seem to be watching this to protect it against vandalism, so my question is, to save those watchers time, should it be permanently protected so someone can't just wander in and change a word or two. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:06, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- And stop doing nonsense like this. And you're right about what you wrote above. It also ties into the 'B' part of WP:BRD. For example, if a newbie adds some good content but puts the source as an external link alongside the text, I'm not going to revert and yell at them for breaking the "no external links in the article body" rule. A thank you and some guidance are much more in order. --NeilN talk to me 15:11, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Why the freaking heck is it nonsense? Every policy and guideline has a "nutshell" hatnote. This one was missing. Your revert with edit summary 'come ON!' is hardly enlightening. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Repeating the entirety of the policy in the nutshell is unneeded and makes us look like unthinking robots. --NeilN talk to me 22:17, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- This is your (I'd say reasonable) opinion. However in my opinion this repetition only stresses the policy. I do not think that the added nutshell will increase the number of people thinking "this is nuts" after reading the policy, as this very talk page proves. (Anyway, I am not insisting on my change.) Staszek Lem (talk) 22:28, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Repeating the entirety of the policy in the nutshell is unneeded and makes us look like unthinking robots. --NeilN talk to me 22:17, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Why the freaking heck is it nonsense? Every policy and guideline has a "nutshell" hatnote. This one was missing. Your revert with edit summary 'come ON!' is hardly enlightening. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
The whole struggle to keep this haiku of a policy in the form of an deep-thoughtful hauiku despite numerously reported misuses smacks of religious dogmaticism. The very fact that the shortest policy ever collected the longest talk archive is telling. It has much become like a verse from Koran which probably made sense to wild nomads back then, but today requires lots of tafsir freaking lots of Wikipedia essays to explain it. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:53, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- "There is a good reason for the KISS text of the policy" someone once said :-) But any changes should be suggested and workshopped here, instead of making policy changes on the fly. --NeilN talk to me 22:26, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes there is. But there is probably an equally good reason why time and again new generations of Wikipedians are coming to try and "fix" it. Could it be a good idea to add a disclaimer-like hatnote to this talk page, compiled from talkarchives, as a quick reference to aspiring improvers of this policy? Staszek Lem (talk) 22:41, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- Would be a better idea to just fully protect the page. The good faith addition of a nutshell which repeats the pillar in full would bring consistency to the site-wide use of nutshells, but because all it does is repeat the policy directly under it, it's not needed and makes the page look unusually repetitive. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:15, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes there is. But there is probably an equally good reason why time and again new generations of Wikipedians are coming to try and "fix" it. Could it be a good idea to add a disclaimer-like hatnote to this talk page, compiled from talkarchives, as a quick reference to aspiring improvers of this policy? Staszek Lem (talk) 22:41, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
The difference is it's brevity. If you don't count other links, it's just one sentence. So ANY change is a major change. I don't know about protecting it, but as a minimum we should add something making that point and saying that any changes to core wording are major changes to a core policy and would first need a strong consensus in talk. North8000 (talk) 01:33, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Have a look at the current edit notice and if there are tweaks we can agree on, I'll make them. --NeilN talk to me 01:39, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Potential addition for discussion[edit]
I think the IAR policy would benefit from including a caveat... something to warn newer editors that ignoring the rules can be controversial. We should make it clear that there may be disagreement as to whether ignoring a particular rule actually does "improve or maintain" the article. Thus, when ignoring a rule, editors should be prepared to answer questions, to engage with others on the relevant talk page. They should be prepared to explain how (in their opinion) ignoring the rule will improve or maintain the article... and finally, something that says editors should defer to consensus if others disagree with their opinion. Blueboar (talk) 15:13, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- I'd like something that says, "If IAR is the only justification you can provide for your actions, then you're using the policy wrong". --NeilN talk to me 15:17, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Good point / explanation. But is there really a problem to be solved there? And the cost would opening the floodgates of cluttering up this policy.North8000 (talk) 15:30, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Exactly, and any of these concerns can be covered in the See also section if they're not already. The minimal text of the page seems fine as is, and any tinkering or explanations will only add or subtract to the policy (actually one of the Five Pillars of Wikipedia), and thus subtly or unsubtly change it. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:34, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Good point / explanation. But is there really a problem to be solved there? And the cost would opening the floodgates of cluttering up this policy.North8000 (talk) 15:30, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- This is a thinning of the herd rule... if people don't have the common sense to understand it....I don't think they should be editing here at all. No need for change.....it allows us to see who has common sense to edit here.... if someone needs more of an explanation they shouldn't be here.--Moxy (talk) 15:53, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Well, some people grew up and exist in pretty regimented environments so I have some sympathy when they ask, "what the heck is this?" --NeilN talk to me 15:57, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
- Your right in a way.... the old days of Wikipedia our gone....we no longer are filled with academic individuals but people with their own point of view and causes. But we have many essays that cover this.--Moxy (talk) 16:01, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
Merge content from essays[edit]
I don't see why this policy should remain at just one sentence. The essays under See Also are quite useful in improving the policy. Proposing to add content from Wikipedia:You can't follow all the rules, all the time, Wikipedia:Ignoring all rules – a beginner's guide, Wikipedia:Understanding IAR, Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means, Wikipedia:Ignore all rules/Versions. KingAndGod 15:00, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- IMO, in general, such would detract from / dilute it. North8000 (talk) 17:32, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Talk page archives are bulging and bursting with suggestions akin to yours. The answer was always "No".
I don't see why
-- read the archives. Staszek Lem (talk) 22:28, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Should not IAR be worded "Use discretion when applying the rules"?[edit]
That's what it seems like to me in the enforcement region. Ellenor2000 (talk) 02:05, 1 September 2018 (UTC)
Columns and templates[edit]
Sorry, but I think some of the formatting on this page looks weird, so I wanted to discuss it and maybe fix it. Let me start with the least controversial part: I want an asterisk before {{wikiquote-inline|Rules}} so that it appears as a member of the list rather than as a paragraph. I previously got a WP:LISTGAP fix undone and then redone on another page, so I try to be more careful this time.
Next, why is the see also section written in two columns? And why did you put the __NOEDITSECTION__ template in there? I'm guessing the columns were added because of the length of the section and because it contained lists, and the section editing links removed because getting them in the middle of columns is confusing. But really, something with headings in it looks weird when split into columns. If you really want columns, I'd suggest applying them to individual lists and making sure each list is visually separated from the others. Template:div col can be made to insert horizontal lines between the sections, but I think these lists are so short it might look better without columns entirely. And why is the table of contents explicitly removed? The page is short enough that it won't have a TOC by default anyway. Only users who set an option in their preferences to display it will be affected by __NOTOC__. So why do we have it then?
I feel like the noeditsection thing was probably to make it slightly less obvious how to edit the page so it wouldn't get vandalized as much. How much vandalism it stops could probably be seen by looking at the edit history before and after that template got added. But notoc doesn't do anything, so it probably shouldn't be there. So is it okay if I remove notoc and the columns and to add the asterisk before the last list element? If I can't get rid of the columns, could I at least make the number of columns react to the width of the screen, as they actually look cramped when I resize the window or change the default font size? Div col should be able to do that. – Pretended leer {talk} 19:26, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- The wikiquote stuff has gone and that seems desirable. NOTOC is not doing anything at the moment but if there were more (short) sections it would useful because the point of this page is to be an exception to how things are generally done, with a focus on the very short point of the policy. Similarly NOEDITSECTION is just right here. Maybe fiddle with the columns if there would be some material benefit, however it should be two columns on a desktop-sized screen. Johnuniq (talk) 03:37, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Seems like a third user decided to make it three columns in the meantime. Forced three columns, that is, so these will be even narrower on small screens. The third column was for the read aloud version, which isn't really a "see also" thing. If they want it back in the see also section, they can explain why here on the talk page.
- As for NOEDITSECTION, it makes all but the lead section hard to edit on mobile. Try editing this if you want to see for yourselves. Most people wouldn't want to edit the lead section anyway, whereas See also and it subsections actually have stuff that people will change from time to time. If it's there to make some people think the page can't be edited at all, you could say that. – Pretended leer {talk} 18:57, 2 November 2018 (UTC)