Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

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Proposed revision: links within quotes[edit]

As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader.

Despite being called into question time and again,[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] the above rule remains essentially the same as when it was added in Oct 2006 following a discussion. When I look at these conversations, it doesn't even look like the rule was ever built upon a clear, unanimous consensus in the first place, or has ever since been firmly supported, established or enforced.[8] I think this obscures its overall validity as a WP:POLICY as well, as expressed in the last comment at this discussion by Pmanderson.

I also couldn't agree more with the last comment about this issue on this talk, by SMcCandlish: "it's more helpful to say 'do this' than just 'don't do that'." So here's my proposed revision, in which I attempt to elaborate on the current rule rather than to alter it:

Version 1

Wikilinks within quotations must be kept to a bare minimum. Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion—that is, usually a proper name or technical jargon—except when it is universally recognized and therefore easily understood by most readers (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking § Overlinking).

Excessive: Smith wrote, "The [[1990s]] [[German]] [[film]], [[Cinematography|shot]] on [[70 mm film|70 mm]], is [[Epic film|bigger]] and more [[Film budgeting|expensive]] than ''[[Ben-Hur (1959 film)|Ben-Hur]]''."
Modest: Smith wrote, "The 1990s German film, shot on [[70 mm film|70 mm]], is bigger and more expensive than ''[[Ben-Hur (1959 film)|Ben-Hur]]''."[9]

If such a subject is mentioned somewhere else in the article, however, then link those instead of the one inside the quote (see also Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking § Repeated links). And even if not, consider adding or moving a mention of the subject to the surrounding encyclopedic passage.

Confusing: "[[Paris, Texas|Paris]] still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007. (Reader must click on link to discover that the obvious interpretation of "Paris" is incorrect.)
Acceptable: "[[Paris, Texas|Paris[, Texas]]] still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007.
Better: "Paris still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007, referring to [[Paris, Texas]].[10]

Most importantly, never give links to words that are remotely semantically ambiguous or use piped links to direct to articles whose subject is significantly broader or narrower than the displayed text (Easter egg links). This is to avoid leaving any room for original research or violation of text–source integrity.

Bad: [[United States Declaration of Independence|Four score and seven years ago]] our [[Founding Fathers of the United States|fathers]] brought forth on [[North America|this continent]] a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that [[all men are created equal]].
OK: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.[11]

Clunky (?) examples aside, I think this generally sums up the points discussed in this talk before (as cited). What I would love to find out is if people think this is overall in the right direction or not, whether they might agree or disagree about some minutiae. Nardog (talk) 08:14, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Notes

  • It's about time we tackled this idiotic provision. Without mulling it carefully (bedtime!) the above is a great start; subject to the OP's permission of course, I added a note to one of the examples.
  • Re "Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion—that is, usually a proper name or technical jargon": Too strong, I think. There's no difference between linking within a quote and linking in a paraphrase of that quote: we need to be sure that what we're linking to reflects what the source was referring to; beyond that, if the link helps the reader understand the quote, that's no different from a link that helps the reader understand a paraphrase.
  • Re "except when it is universally recognized and therefore easily understood by most readers": Isn't this just trying to say what WP:OVERLINK says, and (I say again) the guiding principles for linking don't need to be any different inside quotes than they are outside quotes, so they don't need to be restated here in different ways.
  • Here's another example that might be useful:
The outer of the two rooms is of Alabama marble, with fluted columns and Ionic capitals.
EEng 08:45, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I am certainly being conservative here. My approach as a starting point was basically to fist clarify, paraphrase, and elaborate upon the current rule to bring it closer to the reality of what editors do. Nardog (talk) 02:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I definitely support this change, whether or not the above word is perfect or eventually changed. (It's a #honour to have inspired something.) To be honest, I completely forgot this policy existed. I linked something in a quote the other day. That's just one example of how this policy is widely ignored and not supported by consensus. It definitely needs to be changed, whether or not it's changed to the above specifically. McLerristarr | Mclay1 08:49, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support (with some copyedits). We've needed to rectify this for a long time. Pretty much no one follows the current rule; it's surely the #1 most-triggered WP:IAR, because there are very few circumstances where adding explanatory text outside the quote to provide link points for the words already used in the quote produces better material. (The "Paris, Texas" example is good, because "Paris" by itself is confusing, and per WP:REUSE we cannot depend on an explanatory link to be available.) It instead usually results in redundant and repetitive material that is frustrating for editors and brow-beating and intelligence-insulting for readers. All rules in MoS and other guidelines (and policies) are not followed some of the time by some editors, because people just show up and start editing without reading all these rules first (and we want it that way; these rules are primary for clean-up gnomes). However, we should not retain a bogus rule that is intentionally ignored as nonsense by virtually all editors who are well aware of the rule; it's a matter of WP:CREEP and WP:COMMONSENSE (and WP:POLICY, which tells us these pages exist to codify actual best practices, not try to force changes that no one actually practices).

    Copyedits: Do not use <tt>...</tt>. This element has not even existed in HTML for years (and if you're habitually using it, please stop - cleaning up after it is a maintenance headache). The correct element in this context is <code>...</code>, and it should wrap the entire example that represents wikicode, not just the part with linking brackets. "Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion—that is, usually a proper name or technical jargon—except when it is universally recognized and therefore easily understood by most readers" doesn't flow right. Try "... or technical jargon. Do not link something that is universally recognized ...". Use {{Crossref}} around crossreferences. "If such a subject is mentioned somewhere else in the article, however, then link those instead of the one inside the quote" doesn't have plurality agreement, and we generally do not want people to link multiple instances, remember. Compress the verbiage; e.g., that entire string can be replaced with "If the term is used outside the quote in the article, link it there instead". Other parts of it can similarly be compressed. The whole segment that starts with "Most importantly, never give links to words that are remotely semantically ambiguous" suffers from this problem. We should also not introduce anything like "never" and "remotely", per WP:BEANS; they're just drama-generation tools (see other thread on this talk page about terrible idea for a rule against "inconsequential" changes). Guidelines do best with "do" and "do not" wording versus "always" and "never" (which seems to deny that WP:IAR exists), and subjective pronouncements like "remotely" and "inconsequential" and "most importantly" incite interpretational disputes. "This is to ..." wording is awkward; it's better to integrate policy rationales directly into the rule's sentence. That whole bit should probably be rewritten. We also don't need to provide the "OK" example that just shows no linking. I think part of our point here would be that well-known quotations are often best left without linking inserted into them. It makes more sense to just say so that to provide an "un-example" with no links in it, for no clear reason.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  13:10, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm not an experienced editor here on enwp, let alone its policies, so this is very helpful stuff. So please feel free to make changes below. Nardog (talk) 02:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
This is tangential and rather applies to the entire MOSes, but my problem with <code>...</code> is that it totally butchers the {{xt}}/{{!xt}} styling (at least with the default CSS). I found this template {{Plaincode}}, can we use this within {{xt}}/{{!xt}}'s? Nardog (talk) 02:43, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
We've not needed to do this, and have {{mxt}} (green) and {{!mxt}} (red) for this. The main problem is mix-and-matching styles on the same line; just use one:
{{em|Excessive}}: <code>{{!mxt|Smith wrote, "The <nowiki>[[1990s]] [[German]]</nowiki> ...}}</code>
gives:
Excessive: Smith wrote, "The [[1990s]] [[German]] ...
In this case, it's neither necessary nor desirable to show this markup, though. Just use plain {{xt}} and allow the links to link. This will illustrate the "sea of blue" effect in the quoted material.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:54, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Version 2 (currently waiting for SM to edit in his suggested changes)[edit]

SMcCandlish, instead of everyone else wading through all your suggestions, why don't you just edit them into the version I've helpfully pasted in below, in a series of self-contained quanta? Start with the most obvious, unobjectionable ones, leaving the ones people may want to discuss or modify for the last. Then people can step through your edits, follow your reasoning in your edit summaries, and revert or modify for further discussion here. (Nardog, I hope you won't object to this approach.) I've already added the "Alabama marble" example, just so it doesn't get lost. EEng 18:37, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Per suggestion below, I've made some edits [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style&diff=738826688&oldid=738825763to the V2 text. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:08, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
V2

Wikilinks within quotations must be kept to a minimum. Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion—usually a proper name or technical jargon—and not a common term easily understood by most readers. (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking § Overlinking.)

Example: The outer of the two rooms is of Alabama marble, with fluted columns and Ionic capitals.
Excessive: Smith wrote, "The [[1990s]] [[German]] [[film]], [[Cinematography|shot]] on [[70 mm film|70&nbsp;mm]], is [[Epic film|bigger]] and more [[Film budgeting|expensive]] than ''[[Ben-Hur (1959 film)|Ben-Hur]]''."
Appropriate: Smith wrote, "The 1990s German film, shot on [[70 mm film|70&nbsp;mm]], is bigger and more expensive than ''[[Ben-Hur (1959 film)|Ben-Hur]]''."

Where possible, link a word or phrase elsewhere in the article instead of in the quotation. If it is appropriate to link a word or phrase that does not appear elsewhere in the article, consider mentioning and linking it in text near the quote.

Confusing: "[[Paris, Texas|Paris]] still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007. (Reader must click on link to discover that the obvious interpretation of "Paris" is incorrect.)
Acceptable: "{{bracket|[[Paris, Texas]]}} still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007.
Better: "Paris still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007, referring to [[Paris, Texas]].

Most importantly, never give links to words that are remotely semantically ambiguous or use piped links to direct to articles whose subject is significantly broader or narrower than the displayed text (Easter egg links). This is to avoid leaving any room for original research or violation of text–source integrity.

Bad: [[United States Declaration of Independence|Four score and seven years ago]] our [[Founding Fathers of the United States|fathers]] brought forth on [[North America|this continent]] a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that [[all men are created equal]].
OK: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
  • OP here. I support this because the whole goal was to just suggest a starting point to revise the current rule, so that you, more experienced editors, can improve it. So please be WP:BOLD. Nardog (talk) 02:18, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

@Jayaguru-Shishya: notified me and others of this discussion and thinks it should be at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking. I don't agree, since the impugned statement is on Wikipedia:Manual of Style whereas Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking has nothing about quotes. As regards the substantive issue; I am in favour of not having any "rule" on this and letting editors use their discretion. I am sure some readers find links within quotes to be ugly, but they are a minority who need not be accommodated. Sometimes wikilinking in a quote is convenient and transparent. It shouldn't violate WP:EASTEREGG, but that's not specific to quotes. jnestorius(talk) 16:14, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if Jayaguru-Shishya thinks it should be at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking, because it DOES have something about quotes: one sentence in WP:LINKSTYLE. And I actually sort of agree a written rule about this is redundant, but that was already once dismissed (years ago, though). But wouldn't you agree a revision would be at least better than leaving the current rule (Nirvana fallacy)? I think a change is more easily attained when it's gradual than when it's drastic. Nardog (talk) 16:49, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
So you have already tried proposing this at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking, but it didn't end up that well and now you are posting it here? Did I get it right? That'd be WP:FORUMSHOPing, I am afraid. Posting the same thing over and over in hope to "have better luck next time" isn't advisable either.
Anyway, this is the wrong place to discuss the changes concerning WP:MOSLINK. I bet the majority of the editors there aren't even aware of this discussion. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:59, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm afraid but no, you didn't get it right. I honestly don't even know how one could possibly get such an impression. I proposed this here first, then linked to this discussion on MOS:LINK where it virtually has the summarized version of WP:MOS#Linking (because I had the exact same thought as you that editors there might not notice) only to be reverted by you, so I started a discussion there on WT:MOSLINK as you suggested when reverting. I don't know how that's forumshopping or "posting the same thing over and over". Nardog (talk) 18:29, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
If it's going to affect the wording at the main MoS it's better to discuss it here. See below; an RfC at MOS:NUM is now leading to dispute here because the RfC didn't take into account the wording at this page only at MOS:NUM. In general, any non-trivial MoS-related discussion is probably better held here, because far more people watch and comment at this page than at something like WT:MOSLINK.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  03:13, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Re: request to edit in changes – Okay, but I'll have to come back to it later. The "give me PoV-pushing quote boxes or give me death" stuff further up the page has soured my appetite for editing here today, and I'm focusing on article copyediting, category cleanup, and template work.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  03:13, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I've no objection to discussion here about important changes to MOS offspring guidelines, as long as they're section-linked at the offspring talkpage. Is the green-background text above the existing, or has it been edited? I don't really want to encourage editors to use awkward square-bracket placements, although it's not exactly wrong to do it. "Paris[, Texas] still has the best" might be better as [[[Paris, Texas|Paris, Texas]]]. Also, we might consider suggesting that wherever it's convenient to link an item in the vicinity of a quotation rather than withing it, that might be preferable. Tony (talk) 03:47, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
If you mean the block beginning Wikilinks within quotations must be kept to a bare minimum with the vertical bar at the left (I ask because to me it looks more bluish than green), it's all new; the current guideline says simply As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader. I'm editing your suggestions into Version 2, subject of course to others' approval
  • You'll notice, if you look at the rendering of your own post just now, that triple brackets don't work the way one wants -- you have to use {{bracket}}.
  • I added Where possible, use linking elsewhere in the article to make linking inside the quotation unnecessary.
I have to say, though, that someone's suggestion that we might simply drop the current guideline is an attractive one. If trouble arises, then we can add guidance along the lines of what we've been discussing. EEng 04:08, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
There are other approaches than {{bracket}}; I use &#91;[[Link here]]&#93; because I memorized those HTML character entity codes years ago. You can also do [<nowiki />[[Link here]]]. In all cases, it's fiddly, so we don't want to advise it (no one will comply, and it will be easily broken).  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I should have said, "You need to use {{bracket}} or something." If this basic proposal gets traction, then we can talk about what markup to recommend (since, when you think about it, inside a quote is major use case for a bracketed link). I'm glad we've got back the old Sandy McCandlish we know and love. EEng 21:31, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I think the biggest argument against removing the rule entirely would be precisely because it has existed for so long. So instead of paraphrasing or elaborating on it, it may be just enough to say something along the lines of "With regard to linking, quoted texts are no different from any other types of texts. But since they are more susceptible to a violation of WP:NOR or WP:EGG, see to it that they adhere to MOS:LINK." Nardog (talk) 08:20, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Thinking it over, I'm thinking we might keep the first and second examples above, drop the third, and drop the explanatory text in favor of something much shorter such as what Nardog just suggested. But to not confuse things too much, let's wait for SMcCandlish's edits to Version 2, then think about what to do next. EEng 00:16, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
You all can just integrate what I suggested if you want; I probably can't get to this until tonight or tomorrow.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  17:17, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I think we'll all be happy to wait for you. You know best what you have in mind. EEng 19:45, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Some sugestions:
  • bare minimum should be minimum. The word "bare" adds no semantic value.
  • instead of
Where possible, use linking elsewhere in the article to make linking inside the quotation unnecessary.
use
Where possible, link a word or phrase elsewhere in the article instead of in the quotation.
  • In
that is, usually a proper name or technical jargon
the juxtaposition of "that is" and "usually" seems wrong. I suggest just deleting the former, ie:
... entity or notion—usually a proper name or technical jargon—except ...
  • The sentence
Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion ... except when it is universally recognized and therefore easily understood by most readers
is potentially ambiguous. The "except" clause could be read as being an exception to "only" rather than "link". I suggest instead:
Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion—usually a proper name or technical jargon—and not a common term easily understood by most readers (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking § Overlinking)
Mitch Ames (talk) 07:11, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Version 2: comments

  • "If such a subject is mentioned somewhere else in the article, however, then link those instead of the one inside the quote (see also Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking § Repeated links). And even if not, consider adding or moving a mention of the subject to the surrounding encyclopedic passage.."

    What is "such a subject"? What does "those" refer back to? And even if not what? Even without addressing those points, a better opening might be: "However, if such a subject is mentioned elsewhere in the article, link those ..."

  • Is "most importantly" necessary? ("Never" is already intensive.) "Remotely semantically" is a little clumsy, and what does "semantically" add here? Either remove altogether or replace with "at all ambiguous? Tony (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Mitch Ames, Tony1: Will you please just edit your ideas directly into V2? A series of small edits, each with a clear edit summary, will allow others to follow your changes. Likely most if not all will be uncontroversi, but if someone dislikes something we can discuss it then. EEng 07:56, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
please just edit your ideas directly into V2 - Done. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:10, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
This edit to the V2 text might address the first of Tony1's points. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:26, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

More Version 2 comments[edit]

Version 2 now has changes made by Mitch Ames, which look good to me. Others should feel free to continue modifying it, or if there are concerns that can't be addressed by simple editing, comments can be added here. SMcCandlish, I'm sure we'd all like for you to edit in anything you still want to see changed. (If such edits are extensive, you might want to start a V3.) EEng 21:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, we're waiting. (And similarly at MOSDATE, too.) Can you please make time for this? EEng 08:33, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Briefly, on linking from quotes. This should still be minimised as much as possible. The point of a quote is usually to transmit something in the voice of the person giving the quote (i.e. not in Wikipedia's voice). Linking distracts from this. If something is important enough to link from within a quote, then 99% of the time it will be mentioned elsewhere in the article, or should be mentioned elsewhere, and can be linked from there. In many cases, an explanatory footnote, with links, is better than linking from the quote itself. The reason this is rarely done appears to be because many editors are not familiar with how to generate actual footnotes containing text (as opposed to citations and references). Linking from within a quote is, IMO, a lazy way of explaining things to the reader. Taking the time to write the surrounding text so that things are explained without the need to link, is usually better. This is difficult to express in a guideline, though. Wikipedia:Nesting footnotes is useful to explain the 'reference within note' and similar approaches (hands up who uses the obscure methods 'Subnote within note' and 'Subnote within reference'?). Carcharoth (talk) 13:52, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Is there anything you think should be changed in Version 2? EEng 14:15, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
It is difficult to engage with the examples, because they lack the context provided by the surrounding text which would in many cases suggest ways to avoid linking at all. Example three, I would add the year the quoted text was uttered/published and explain that 'Four score and seven years ago' is 87 years ago and that it is referring to the US Declaration of Independence in 1776. Or even simpler, when attributing the quote, just link to Gettysburg Address (1863). That should be sufficient for most readers. This is why the context of how you are giving the quote is important. Made-up or truncated examples (stripped of their context) don't really work here. Carcharoth (talk) 15:01, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I would prefer simple text: "Be especially careful with wikilinks in quotations, ensuring that they are unambiguously appropriate to the text. As editors we do not impose additional meaning upon the words of others, except through the editorial voice, and only then when supported by reliable sources."

Why? Because these same problems can arise with wikilinks in article text. An incorrect or biased link from a quote is hardly more damaging than misleading contextual links. ...is widely considered [[Nazi|right wing]].... We can put words in someone's mouth but we can't put a link in their mouth.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 21:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC).

Version 3[edit]

This integrates Tony1's comments (I hope). Rich Farmbrough, I'm uncertain how to integrate the changes you're talking about above. Can you edit that into V3 for us? EEng 04:27, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Wikilinks within quotations need special care, and for this reason are often worth avoiding altogether. Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion—usually a proper name or technical jargon—and not a common term easily understood by most readers. (See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking § Overlinking.)

Example: Opulent Architecture said, "The outer of the two rooms is of Alabama marble, with fluted columns and Ionic capitals."
Excessive: Smith wrote, "The [[1990s]] [[German]] [[film]], [[Cinematography|shot]] on [[70 mm film|70&nbsp;mm]], is [[Epic film|bigger]] and more [[Film budgeting|expensive]] than ''[[Ben-Hur (1959 film)|Ben-Hur]]''."
Appropriate: Smith wrote, "The 1990s German film, shot on [[70 mm film|70&nbsp;mm]], is bigger and more expensive than ''[[Ben-Hur (1959 film)|Ben-Hur]]''."

Where appropriate, put a link in nearby text instead of in the quotation; consider adding suitable text where none exists.

Confusing: "[[Paris, Texas|Paris]] still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007. (Reader must click on link to discover that the obvious interpretation of "Paris" is incorrect.)
Acceptable: "{{bracket|[[Paris, Texas]]}} still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007.
Better: "Paris still has the best", food critic John Smith said in 2007, referring to [[Paris, Texas]].

Don't link to words that are ambiguous or use piped links to direct to articles whose subject is significantly broader or narrower than the displayed text (Easter egg links). This is to avoid original research or violation of text–source integrity.

Bad: [[United States Declaration of Independence|Four score and seven years ago]] our [[Founding Fathers of the United States|fathers]] brought forth on [[North America|this continent]] a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that [[all men are created equal]].
OK: Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

I have made some revisions to the above. I am inclined to remove the advice that applies to all links in running text, such as overlinking. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:33, 24 September 2016 (UTC).

I've made minor correction to the punctuation in Rich Farmbrough's new text. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:56, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

This link [1] shows the changes from V2 to V3. I'm fine with them. Comments? EEng 06:14, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with this change:
Only link a word or phrase that is create links that are unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion...
In the original wording the word/phrase in the quote must be unambiguously referring to a specific entity, implying that the link target must be that specific entity. The newer wording says that the target must be a specific entity but does not say that the quoted word/phrase must be unambiguous, allowing the editor to infer the meaning of an ambiguous quote - which we ought not allow. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:41, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
Hmmmm. You may have a point. EEng 06:58, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
There being no further comment, I've edited V3 to undo the change Mitch Ames dislikes. Pinging everyone who's participated so far so see how close V3 now brings us to agreement: Mitch Ames, SMcCandlish, Tony1, Rich Farmbrough, Nardog, Mclay1, jnestorius, Jayaguru-Shishya, Carcharoth. EEng 08:40, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
I support V3. Nardog (talk) 10:30, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
Well, I support V3 in that I consider it better than the current one, but I don't disagree with any of the comments below. Nardog (talk) 14:44, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Oppose I don't see anything in the V3 "bad" examples that is specific to quotations. Overlinking is overlinking wherever it occurs; ditto for eastereggs. There are three cases:
  1. A snippet where the wikilinking is acceptable whether or not the snippet is a direct quotation
  2. A snippet where the wikilinking is unacceptable whether or not the snippet is a direct quotation
  3. A snippet where the wikilinking is acceptable if the snippet is ordinary running text but unacceptable if the identical wording is a direct quotation
Examples of type #1 and #2 are useless in helping editors see the point and scope of a quotation-specific policy. So advocates of any policy need to focus on finding examples of type 3. jnestorius(talk) 10:37, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't like it. I generally disagree with the whole "avoid it" thing. The point of linking in any case is so that readers can gain an understanding of the context. This is no different in quotes. The only thing that needs to be avoided is linking to something that the person quoted didn't mean. However, there will be many, many cases where it is obvious or explicit what the person meant. It may even have been explained in another part of the quote that is not given in the article. So I don't agree at all that links "are often worth avoiding altogether". If someone's talking about the Beatles, we know they're talking about the Beatles. There's no need to avoid that outside of the rules that apply to normal linking. There's no reason readers will be any more or less aware of terms used within quotes. I would just delete "and for this reason are often worth avoiding altogether". "Wikilinks within quotations need special care" says enough. This bit – "Don't link to words that are ambiguous" – is either unclear or wrong. If the word (I think term is better) is ambiguous in that it requires interpretation that could be incorrect, then, yes, a link should be avoided for the all the stated reasons. However, if a term is ambiguous in that a reader may misunderstand it, but it's actually certain what the person was referring to, then that's a very good to reason to include a link. If a person says (and hypothetically no previous context was given), "I really hate spam", then "spam" needs to be linked to explain whether the person means the food or junk emails. Without that explanation, the quote is pointless. Yes, you could put an explanation in [brackets], but there may be situations where it's better to link. McLerristarr | Mclay1 14:14, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I find Jnestorius' and Mclay1's points appealing. I wonder if we may be heading toward something very minimal, like a simple statement like "Wikilinks within quotations need special care..." and maybe just a bit more than that, and maybe or maybe not an example. But let's take this a bit at a time. How about if we start by changing
Wikilinks within quotations need special care, and for this reason are often worth avoiding altogether. Only link a word or phrase that is unequivocally referring to a unique and specific entity or notion—usually a proper name or technical jargon—and not a common term easily understood by most readers.
to read
Wikilinks within quotations need special care. Only link a word or phrase that unequivocally refers to a unique and specific entity or notion—​​usually a proper name or technical jargon.
I don't think we need to xref to MOS/Linking § Overlinking because that applies to all links. Can we all agree on that change, for starters? EEng 18:20, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree with jnestorius, or if there must be a version of the rule, with Mclay1. Direct quotes are not so frequent that overlinking or easter-egg linking won't be easily enough spotted. Harfarhs (talk) 20:16, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree with the recent comments that examples which are clearly just overlinking, whether in a quote or not, and examples that are clearly appropriate links, whether inside quotes or not, aren't helpful. Of the three example types, only the third is useful, the example of linking that would be okay in regular prose but unhelpful inside a quoted passage. I agree with the "keep is simple" trend; just using that sort of example and suggesting that quote linking should be handled with more care is probably sufficient, at least for now. If a specific, identifiable pattern of overlinking in quotes arises, it can be addressed more narrowly later. I think our goal here should be to acknowledge that whether there was ever a consensus to completely avoid linking inside quotations (dubious), there no longer is one, just concerns about "mangling" quotations with over- or inappropriate (e.g. PoV-pushing) links. Since we already have material on avoiding both of those generally, it would be instruction creep to re-explain that here specifically about quotations in any detail. Just saying not to overlink or use misleading links is probably sufficient, since we can link to the existing broad advice against doing that.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  10:23, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

A bold alternative[edit]

I'm losing hope that we'll be able to agree on particular examples, at least for now. How about if we start by simply replacing the current

As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader.

to

(Version EE)' Wikilinks within quotations need special care. Only link a word or phrase that unequivocally refers to a unique and specific entity or notion—​​usually a proper name or technical jargon.

Can we agree to just do that for now, and then someday, if it seems needed, reopen a discussion about adding some examples? (We can tinker with the exact text, of course, but what I'm looking for here is agreement on the basic idea that for now we're just going to do something simple similar to what I just gave, not all the examples and stuff.) EEng 05:12, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

  • Not an objection... just tossing in a thought (feel free to ignore if it complicates reaching agreement). In my experience, when a quote contains a word or phrase that could be linked... that word or phrase will almost always also appear elsewhere in the article - ie in the running text of the article. When this occurs, I think it is better to place the link in the running text, rather than in the quote. Blueboar (talk) 12:17, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that's one of the points made in the more elaborate guideline that's been stalled, so when that discussion's revived that will be in the mix. EEng 02:45, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Blueboar, would you be able to support the text proposed in this subthread? EEng 05:41, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
  • I support this inasmuch as I think the point is, as I mentioned when I started this proposal, that the current rule has been called into question numerous times, and an overwhelming proportion of people seem to think that it at least needs to be replaced (the weird thing is, some of the criticisms raised against the proposed versions are also applicable to the current version). If so, we can just replace it with a minimal, least controversial version to start with, and revise it if necessary whether boldly or via discussion. Nardog (talk) 15:56, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Pinging SMcCandlish, Mclay1, Mitch Ames, jnestorius, Tony1, Rich Farmbrough, Harfarhs, Jayaguru-Shishya, Carcharoth. EEng 02:45, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Agree with Blueboar's point. Also, the points to not clutter quotations and not mislead or confuse the reader shouldn't be lost. I agree with the goal of replacing the current poor advice with better advice, with or without examples.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  05:33, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, if you can find it in your heart, can you support the simple text I proposed at the beginning of this subthread, so we can make at least some definite progress after all this work? EEng 05:40, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Not a matter of heart, just a matter of that wording not, as Mclay1 points out, including any rationale why quotes should be linked with care. The more I read it, the more I don't think it addresses the nature of the beast. I'm not sure "a unique or specific entity or notion" is really the heart of the matter. We could make it simpler yet, e.g. with: "Avoid linking from within quotations in a way that may mislead or confuse the reader, or when the same link can be provided earlier in the article or immediately after the quotation." (This would also address Blueboar's point.) I don't have an outright objection to working in the other material, e.g. with "Most often, an appropriate link in a quotation will be to a specific entity or notion." ("Unique" and "specific" are redundant.) We could also address the most common forms of misleading/confusing the reader, e.g. with: "In particular, avoid linking anachronistically to an article on a term that has changed meaning since the quotation was originally published, or to a general topic when a more specific subtopic was intended by the original speaker or writer. Piped links can be used to direct readers to specific sections of general articles."  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  07:26, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. Blueboar may be right, but I don't think it needs stating in the guidelines. However, I think it does need to briefly state WHY links within quotes need special care, i.e. to avoid POV interpretation. The current (the one currently in the MOS) explanation is not good, and I disagree with the concept of clutter (blue or black text – who cares?). McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:04, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
  • If we consider that the cluttering part is already covered by MOS:LINK and its concerns about overlinking, then we're still left with including concerns about PoV/misleading/confusing; you say "Support", but simultaneously point out the need to say why handling with care is required, which the proposed language doesn't do.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  07:26, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
  • Support (in case that isn't obvious). EEng 06:37, 3 October 2016 (UTC)


OK, per Sandy McCandlish, can we all get behind

(Version SM) Wikilinks within quotations need special care. Avoid linking from within quotations in a way that may mislead or confuse the reader, or when the same link can be provided earlier in the article or immediately after the quotation.

--as a first step? EEng 08:00, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't object... however, I think we are really dealing with two separate issues: 1) whether to place a link within a quotation in the first place (vs elsewhere in the text)... and 2) when we do link within a quotation, taking care that the target is appropriate to the quote.
So... I would flip the suggested wording around... to something like: Best practice is to avoid Wikilinks within quotations. See if the desired link can be placed in the main text of the article (either earlier in the article text, or soon after the quotation). If this is not possible, use care to avoid linking to targets that may mislead or confuse the reader. Blueboar (talk) 11:47, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
I would support Blueboar's wording, or something very similar. Carcharoth (talk) 11:56, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Disagree, I'm afraid. I think "Best practice is to avoid.." is too close to what we already have, and will end up with the same problems. I would support "Wikilinks within quotations need.." - it seems to me to deal effectively with the two issues. Harfarhs (talk) 12:59, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
(Version JN) How about Take special care with Wikilinks within quotations, to avoid linking to targets that may mislead or confuse the reader. See if the desired link can instead be placed in the main text of the article, either before or soon after the quotation.  ? jnestorius(talk) 13:43, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
That works as well. For those who don't want to see wikilinks in quotations discouraged, the problem here is that those who are cautious with how they link don't need reminding. It is those who add links liberally (thinking that a link is better, maybe, than nothing at all) often do so without realising that it can be a problem. It is those people that need this guidance (not that they will have read it anyway, but they will be pointed at it). Carcharoth (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
I'd be so happy just to get rid of the current no-links-in-quotes rule I'll get behind almost anything. EEng 15:47, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

In cases where the quotation is taken from an online source, there could be a perception that a link was present in the original cited text. Is there a way to distinguish between links added by Wikipedia editors and links from the original source? isaacl (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

That's a very apposite question - almost the reverse situation to the one for which this thread was opened. It's likely that we will not be able to maintain those links embedded in the original text, which may well link to other articles/headlines in the original publication. This would breach guidelines on use of embedded extermal links? Are we meant to not use, such passages at all? Or just to ignore the original links? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:12, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Most sources of the kind that contain their own links (e.g. blogs) aren't RS for most purposes anyway, so I think this is an unusual case. ME123 is right that we can't maintain them anyway. They should just be silently omitted. No one's going to think links we add were in the original. In some weird case where a link in the source is important, we should say,
Smith wrote in his blog, "I believe in freedom."[1] (Jones pointed out that Smith linked the word America to a Libertarian Party website.)[2]
But please, please, can we first focus on OKing what's in the text on the table (Version JN, above, at this point), instead of what maybe could be added? EEng 17:13, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
A lot of newspaper sites and news analysis sites are now including hypertext links. I raised this specifically because I wanted to gauge opinion on the implications of adding a link to a quotation: would readers consider any included hypertext links to also be a direct quote from the source material? If so, then there is an issue with Wikipedia editors adding links to a quote. isaacl (talk) 15:50, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Then I suggest you to open a new thread. This could not be the right place to gauge opinion on that. Nardog (talk) 04:30, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
To put it another way, I'm not sure I am in favour of adding links within quotes taken from written sources, as this alters the original quote in an imperceptible manner. Accordingly I have raised the issue in this discussion thread on the proposal. isaacl (talk) 05:49, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
  • How about Take special care with Wikilinks in quotations: avoid linking to targets that may not represent the meaning within the quote. See if the desired link can instead be placed in the main text of the article, either before or soon after the quotation.
(I think we can cause as much damage by bad context links, as I mentioned above, but nonetheless I prefer this wording.)
All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 20:19, 3 October 2016 (UTC).
I think Rich Farmbrough's version is an improvement - it addresses something that has been bothering me but that I've not been able to put into words until now. In particular the earlier versions' Avoid linking ... that may mislead or confuse the reader... is a bit vague as to why it may mislead/confuse. RF's avoid linking to targets that may not represent the meaning within the quote is more specific to what (I think) we intend. However I'd go a bit further in that respect and propose:
(Version MA) Take special care with Wikilinks in quotations: link only to targets that correspond to the meaning intended by the quote's author, and only when the author's meaning is explicitly known (rather than assumed). Ideally, link from text outside of the quote instead.
Mitch Ames (talk) 13:10, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
Suggestion withdrawn - I am going to withdraw my suggestion that we include something about linking outside the quote... that is really a separate issue from what is being discussed, and mentioning it in conjunction with the whole "appropriate target/meaning of the author" issue gives the impression that linking to a target that the author of the quote did not intend is somehow OK... if placed outside the quote. That is wrong. Choosing an appropriate target for a link is important, regardless of whether the link is placed within the quote or elsewhere in the text. Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── With your permission I'm striking your now-withdrawn text to focus attention on the prior text on the table, Version JN, with an eye toward seeing if there's any serious objection to it. Again, I'm hoping we can focus on the acceptability of what's there, and not worry for now about what might be nice to add. EEng 18:22, 4 October 2016 (UTC) Later: Ooops, undoing my strikeout, because somehow I thought Blueboar's comment was from Mitch Ames. This discussion is getting too confusing, and my clumsiness didn't help. Blueboar, at this point I can't tell what suggestion you were withdrawing (energy... fading... can't.... focus........). EEng 03:27, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Caution Fidelity Minimality Attribution
SM Wikilinks within quotations need special care. Avoid linking from within quotations in a way that may mislead or confuse the reader, or when the same link can be provided earlier in the article or immediately after the quotation.
JN Take special care with Wikilinks within quotations, to avoid linking to targets that may mislead or confuse the reader. See if the desired link can instead be placed in the main text of the article, either before or soon after the quotation.
RF Take special care with Wikilinks in quotations: avoid linking to targets that may not represent the meaning within the quote.
MA Take special care with Wikilinks in quotations: link only to targets that correspond to the meaning intended by the quote's author, and only when the author's meaning is explicitly known (rather than assumed). Ideally, link from text outside of the quote instead.
MA2 Take special care when adding links to quotations: link only to targets that correspond to the meaning intended by the quote's author, and only when the author's meaning is verifiable. Ideally, link from text outside of the quote instead.

If a quote includes any link, add an editorial note, [link in original] or [link added], as appropriate.

EE2 Add links to quotations only where the targets clearly correspond to the quotation's meaning. Where possible, link from text outside of the quotation instead – either before it or soon after.
Note that in Version MA (and JN and RF, although obviously I prefer MA), the second sentence ("link from outside the quote instead") could be dropped if necessary, without affecting the first sentence. The first sentence is the fundamental principle and would stand alone. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:43, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Support I guess I prefer Rich Farmbrough's wording, but I can certainly get behind this one for the sake of pro tem consensus :) Harfarhs (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
Harfarhs, since you made your comment during the time I'd mistakenly struck out MA's proposed text, can you clarify which version you're supporting? EEng 03:23, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Any reason SMcCandlish's suggestion of including the "why" can't be implemented? (Would it be too much clutter?). Tony (talk) 04:23, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
Support version JN or version SM - either would work fine for me. Harfarhs (talk) 17:32, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
  • We've got four similar proposals on the table, and I really like to not see this stall because we can't decide what direction to go in. To try to narrow things down, I'd like to start like this: Mitch Ames, I think your "only when the author's meaning is explicitly known (rather than assumed)" is too strong -- when are we going to have an explicit indication of the author's meaning? Would you be willing to withdraw your proposal to narrow us down to three? Remember, we can always revisit later. EEng 06:55, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm not willing to withdraw my proposal, because it's the only one that says "link only to targets that correspond to the meaning intended by the quote's author" and I think that it is important to say that, because it is fundamental to not misrepresenting the author. I said "only when the author's meaning is explicitly known" because if the author's meaning is not explicitly known then assuming it would original research. Typically we would know the author's meaning from the context from which the quote was taken. However I concede that the word "explicit" might be unnecessary, ie "... only when the author's meaning is known (rather than assumed)" would probably suffice. (Whether the author's meaning is "known" can be argued per-case if necessary.) Mitch Ames (talk) 07:30, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Actually "verifiable" is probably better than "known (rather than assumed)". Mitch Ames (talk) 08:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
Note that #Random break to avoid derailing other discussions below makes a valid point. I propose that we should explicitly state whether any link was added, or in the originaleg as we do for italics, per MOS: § Italics within quotations. Such a statement would be in addition to "Version MA" above.
To allow for existing links in a quote, I'd change "with Wikilinks in" to "when adding links to", and make the whole thing:
(Version MA2): Take special care when adding links to quotations: link only to targets that correspond to the meaning intended by the quote's author, and only when the author's meaning is verifiable. Ideally, link from text outside of the quote instead.
If a quote includes any link, add an editorial note, [link in original] or [link added], as appropriate.
Mitch Ames (talk) 08:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
But I think "verifiable" is too strong. Think of Opulent Architecture said, "The room is of Alabama marble, with fluted columns and Ionic capitals." -- how would these links be verified? Aren't we justified in adding the obvious links? So would you accept dropping and only when the author's meaning is explicitly known (rather than assumed) and add clearly, so that we have, "link only to targets that clearly correspond to the meaning intended by the quotation's author"? Also, would you accept If possible link the same term from the main text of the article, either before the quotation or soon after? If so, can I strike MA and MA2, and add this to the table as MA3? EEng 08:47, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
But I think "verifiable" is too strong.
Verifiability is a core policy. By adding a link to a quote we are, in effect, stating that "when the author says [linked text] s/he means [link target]", ie we are making a statement about the author's intent. As with any other statement, it should be verifiable. Given that we are effectively putting words into people's mouths, I think verifiability should be stated explicitly. MOS: § Original wording already says "Quotations must be verifiably attributed" - so by extension, any expression of intent (not just the quoted words) ought also be verifiable, and most likely can be, from the same source.
Think of "Opulent Architecture .." -- how would these links be verified? Aren't we justified in adding the obvious links?
If the links can't be verified, they ought not be there. They might be "obvious" to someone familiar with the subject, but there is a risk of WP:SYNTHESIS if the quote source does not define the terms. If the quote source does define the terms, there's the verifiability.
So would you accept dropping and only when the author's meaning is explicitly known (rather than assumed) and add clearly, so that we have, "link only to targets that clearly correspond to the meaning intended by the quotation's author"?
No, I think "explicitly known" (version MA), or better still "verifiable" (MA2) is important.
Also, would you accept If possible link the same term from the main text of the article, either before the quotation or soon after?
I think my version is more succinct, and therefore better.
If so, can I strike MA and MA2, and add this to the table as MA3?
It looks like your simply trying to reduce the number of entries in the last column of the table. While I can see the merit in being able to easily see what's the same and what's different between the versions, that's not a reason to change any particular version.
Why not just write your own preferred version and add it to the table for consideration? Mitch Ames (talk) 09:47, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
I've just struck out MA and added MA2 to the table. I'm not sure that converting it to a table was a good idea. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:01, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
As I raised earlier, I believe distinguishing between added links and original links when quoting written sources avoids the issue of imperceptibly changing a quote. Thus I would favour having a label to identify the provenance of any links. isaacl (talk) 14:47, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Mitch Ames, I think you're reading too much into the verifiability requirement. If, instead of a direct quote, an article said, According to Opulent Architecture, the room was of Alabama marble, the columns being fluted with Ionic capitals, no one would give a second thought to those links. And this would be even more true if, as is quite likely, the attribution was omitted entirely i.e. simply The room was of Alabama marble, the columns being fluted with Ionic capitals. I just don't see how the selection of links is any more fraught inside a quotation than it is in a paraphrase, or in an unattributed assertion of fact.

I went looking for something about the question of link "fidelity" (for lack of a better term), and to my surprise I can find nothing on point in either WP:V or MOS:LINK. And I have to say that in eight years of editing, although I can recall the occasional disagreement about over- or under-linking, I honestly can't remember a single time there was dispute over what would be the right link. Has your experience been different? If not, are we possibly worrying about a potential problem which isn't an actual problem? EEng 17:11, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Without quotation marks, there is no expectation of the quotation being a literal copy of the original source. With the quotation marks, there is an expectation that the quote accurately reflects the original. As an example of a traditional exception, generally speaking a publication may make spelling changes to conform with its style guide, though I think current practice on Wikipedia does not do this. This type of change is a purely mechanical one that does not alter the meaning in any way. However, adding a hypertext link does involve editorial judgment: both the destination and the appropriateness of including the link are content questions. Accordingly, I am uneasy with adding links where none were present: it gives the impression that the original source made the decision to select Wikipedia pages as its links. isaacl (talk) 04:38, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
The discussion here is selecting the right links to be added to quoted material, not whether it's appropriate to add such links at all. But since you bring it up, I think only the most naive reader would be under the misapprehension you describe -- the same kind of reader who might think, for example, that a red link means the linked subject is somehow related to communism. If you want we can put a disclaimer somewhere. EEng 05:45, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
The context (#Proposed revision: links within quotes) is about whether it's appropriate to add such links. The MOS policy is still that links ought not be added at all. So we need to get consensus that (1) links can be added, and (2) suitable wording of a new policy that allows such additions, and any constraints that apply. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:19, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
In your first post, you quoted the current guidance, including "violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged" as being one of the concerns with adding links to quotes. Accordingly, I believe it is reasonable to discuss this aspect. Mitch Ames has proposed adding a disclaimer; is this what you are thinking of and so are willing to go along with? isaacl (talk) 21:23, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
My point was that this section of the thread assumes we're going to remove the current prohibition, and focuses on replacement guideline text. Obviously the whole thing will need to be agreed to in a final round of consensus. EEng 03:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Newspapers use single quotation marks to mean paraphrase. So it is doubtful that there is such an expectation. The use of quotation marks is about our style. It is also common practice to add more explanatory information in square brackets. Our wikilinks do no more than that. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:38, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
If what you're saying, Hawkeye7, is that links are like bracketed glosses in that readers will readily see that they've been added by us WP editors, I fully agree. EEng 03:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Yes, that is what I am saying. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:24, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
I think a few years ago, this may have been the case, but nowadays, a lot of online news articles contain a plethora of explanatory links to Wikipedia and pages on other sites (as well as links to internal coverage). I think norms are shifting in reliable sources to take fuller advantage of hypertext, and so English Wikipedia may as well address this problem head on. isaacl (talk) 16:45, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Assuming you aren't speaking of a single-quote versus double-quote standard (some cultures prefer using single quotes in citations), or scare quotes, I don't know of any examples of what you're saying. Newspapers don't quote when they paraphrase. Scare quotes aren't paraphrases, but a mechanism for signalling emphasis or irony, and is not done in encyclopedic writing. isaacl (talk) 16:45, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
For the conventions regarding quotation marks in newspapers, including their online versions, see here. I take your point about encyclopaedic writing, but I'm not sure everyone understands that either, given your other point about the cultures using quotation marks differently. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:24, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
The article you cite is describing headline writing, for which concision and fitting the words into the available space take precedence. In actual article text, using quotes to quote someone is specifying the literal words used. isaacl (talk) 04:45, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
"... If, instead of a direct quote, an article said, ... ... I just don't see how the selection of links is any more fraught inside a quotation than it is in a paraphrase, or in an unattributed assertion of fact."
The difference is one of "voice", ie who is saying it, Wikipedia or the author of a quote. There's a fundamental difference between Wikipedia says X, and Wikipedia saying that Joe said "X". As has been pointed out already, unless we state otherwise, including a link inside a quote implies that the quote's author made that link and/or intended that particular meaning (the target of the link). Mitch Ames (talk) 13:07, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
"I honestly can't remember a single time there was dispute over what would be the right link. Has your experience been different?"
Yes - Talk:Red pill and blue pill#Derrida, Foucault. This edit is where I removed the links from the quote, triggering the question and my response on the talk page. I'm saying it's common, but it does happen. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:14, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but as Hawkeye7 says (I think) above, readers will readily understand that we have added the links. I cannot endorse a requirement that some sort of [links added] disclaimer be attached everywhere, because that's hopelessly awkward, and I think unnecessary. To add to the mess I've thrown my own Version EE2 into the ring in the table above. EEng 03:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Random break to avoid derailing other discussions[edit]

Comment: I'm here explicitly intending to avoid !voting either support or oppose, but… Just as a data point, I am inclined to be opposed to links inside quotations because they cause too high a risk of problems related to neutrality, original research, and the case (mentioned above) regarding extant links in the quoted material. Especially as regards the latter issue, the idea that these can be disregarded because such sources are unlikely to be reliable sources is already incorrect and will only get more so over time.

All the most prestigious university presses now have substantial digital services for their output (that would traditionally have been in paper form, in a printed book or journal, and static). A prime (counter)example here would be Oxford Scholarly Editions Online which contains digital-first (i.e. authored for the medium) "books", including links. OUP has a ton of related online services and a growing number of them are "digital-first"-type services that will take advantage of the ability to hyperlink. Similarly, a lot of prominent scientists in many fields are now blogging, both on personal blogs and on blogs affiliated with a relevant institution; both of which are reliable sources.

One prime example of each, from my field, would be Stanley Wells, perhaps the most prominent Shakespearean scholar of our time, who posts articles like Digging up Shakespeare by Stanley Wells; and the Shakespeare Birthplace Trust, that maintains the blog Blogging Shakespeare with contributions by both the curators at the Trust and from affiliated or visiting scholars.

I don't think allowing links inside quotes, except in exceptional circumstances, can be done safely and should be discouraged. Guidance in the MoS for the need to explain parts of quotes should point at ways to do it without altering the quote (e.g. link outside the quote; in a footnote attached to the quote; inside editorial insertion marked by square brackets; etc.), much like the guidance for elisions and similar aim to make any modification by Wikipedia clear and unambiguous.

As an example, while digging up the links for this comment, I ran across this article by Colin Burrow (a well known author in Shakespeare studies) on the OUP literature blog. In it he links the text "John Florio’s translation of Montaigne’s Essays,"—which we are now proposing it would be ok to decorate with inline, in-quote, wikilinks to John Florio, Michel de Montaigne, and Essays (Montaigne)—while Burrow actually linked it to another article, by William M. Hamlin, at the same blog. Did we mean to imply that Burrow and OUP linked to those articles on Wikipedia (quite an endorsement!)? What if the article Burrow had linked to was one that argued that Montaigne had a ghostwriter for his essays, that is, one that in some substantial way actually disagrees with Wikipedia's article on Montaigne? There are a nearly endless variety of such issues, most of which will amount to nothing worse than slight confusion for some readers, but where some few cases will be flat out disastrously misleading.

Anyways, I don't have the spare cycles to participate in the actual discussion here, so I'm instead leaving this comment here so that those who do may opt to take it into account (or ignore it, obviously, as the case may be). Apologies for the interruption. --Xover (talk) 19:05, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

PS. And then there are those who take the MoS guidance and arrive at this as a good and proper course of action (note particularly the first part of the edit summary). And, no, this is not really an argument for allowing links inside quotes. --Xover (talk) 19:38, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
I think Xover makes a very good point. MOS: § Linking and the proposals to change it assume that the original material being quoted did not itself include a link - and that is not necessarily the case when we quote from a web page. Perhaps the solution is to add an editorial note to any quote that includes a link – [link added] or [link in original] – eg as we do for italics, per MOS: § Italics within quotations. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:44, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
See Version MA2 in #A bold alternative above. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

For several years, I have been removing wikilinks in quotes because of this MOS provision, and sometimes, I am regretful. In This edit of McCulloch v. Maryland, I regretted that, without the link, readers would not guess that Western Shore is an article, and many readers probably do not know that the term refers to an area of Maryland west of the Chesapeake Bay. I don't think any reader would have thought that the link was in any way original to the 1818 legislation. Unfortunately, the article did not have any place outside of quotes to link to Western Shore, so I followed the rules and removed what was probably a benign and helpful link. If we are going to change the rules, this is an example of a link that I would favor being allowed.

In this edit of Walther Hewel, I regretted losing the links to Wilhelm Canaris and Abwehr. I did not regret losing the links to artichoke, venison, or Gemütlichkeit. The last of the three, while a foreign word in English, is one that I think curious readers would search on their own, so I had no regret there. I would disfavor any changes to the MOS that encourage or allow links to artichoke and venison. I wouldn't mind changes to the MOS that allowed for links to Wilhelm Canaris, Abwehr, and Gemütlichkeit.

The rules should mandate not linking within quotes if the link can be anywhere else in the article, not just within a short distance. After all, per MOS:DUPLINK, "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but if helpful for readers, a link may be repeated in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead." At minimum, wikilinks within quotes should be used only (1) in compliance with a conservative reading of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking and (2) where there is no place else in the article to place the link. Further limitations may be warranted. —Anomalocaris (talk) 00:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Yes, common nouns like "venison" would rarely be linked—perhaps in a food article, once, especially if the technical distinction from other cuts is important. On linking within quotations: if the link can't be placed on the same word outside the quotation (often a good fix), we come down to what are good things to link in quotations, and what are not. Tony (talk) 01:23, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Measures in support of MOS:CURLY[edit]

I was surprised to find in an audit of my recent edits and a sampling of random pages that approximately 15% of articles contain one or more curly quotes or apostrophes. There have been previous discussions (2005, more 2005, 2010, 2016) on the problems with curlies. While promoting curlies has always been rejected I'd like to know how much support there is for MOS:CURLY in discouraging use of curlies or even a partial purge of curlies from mainspace.

Full disclosure: I use dial-up, 20 year old hardware and occasionally use a text-based web-browser. Just to say that editors like myself exist as an active part of the Wikipedia community. Also, I've been doing a lot of apostrophe-related typo fixes.

I would appreciate input on the following approaches:

  1. To have a bot convert curly apostrophes and quotes to straight apostrophes and quotes in the mainspace. (It would have to exclude articles belonging to categories like Category:Punctuation where curlies should be preserved, and exclude cases with adjacent apostrophes to avoid italic and bold issues.)
  2. To have a bot check recent edits for curlies and, when found, leave a message on the editor's talk page (similar to DPL bot when an editor links to a disambiguation page) alerting them to MOS:CURLY issues and linking to a page with instructions for turning off curlies in popular software packages. (Would have to take measures against spamming.)

Like most, I didn't think that curlies were too big of a problem. However, it could be pervasive, effecting some 700k articles. And it wouldn't hurt to inform the small minority of editors introducing curlies into articles. If it's agreed that there are problems with curlies, why not fix it? I'd appreciate your thoughts. - Reidgreg (talk) 17:22, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Please, not another bot gnoming about. If this isn't already something AWB raises an alert on, that might be a good idea. EEng 19:03, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Just to point out the "why" of curliest in the present, it's a combination of lazy copy-and-paste of quotes from websites, and/or editing in a word processor and then copying over to the Wikipedia editing window. In both cases, it's just some careless editing and can easily be done as part of routine gnomish edits. Is it more pervasive that we'd like, sure, but I don't think a bot just for that task is needed. oknazevad (talk) 22:04, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
But who wants somebody constantly looking for curly quotes in articles? PhilrocMy contribs 13:10, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
The editor says "15% of articles contain one or more curly quotes or apostrophes" which seems pretty high to me. Some (unknown) number of articles must contain no quotation marks, so of articles which contain quotation marks, curlies must appear in over 15%. However, yeah, it's not a big deal; I fix them when I see them (and feel like it) but I don't know if its worth worrying about. And, one small advantage of curlies is they signal a possible copy-paste job which alerts me to look for possible copvio. Herostratus (talk) 22:13, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the replies. The percentage did seem high (15.6% of 500 edits and 14% of 50 random articles)), which led me to believe that AWB editors aren't keeping up. Thus the two-pronged approach to clear the backlog and inform lazy careless unaware editors. Copyvio trumps the curly issues, if they can be used as an indicator, though I imagine (or hope) you get a lot of false-positives that way. - Reidgreg (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't think that curly quotes are part of AWB's general cleanup. Mr Stephen (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

A somewhat related issue I came across today is AWB, as a part of general clean-up, changing &Prime; and &prime; to ″ and ′ respectively. Since these are hard to distinguish from quotation marks visually (curly or straight, depending on the font) I wonder if AWB should be allowed to do this. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:09, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I've noticed a correlation between curly quotes and copyvios, so it may not be entirely helpful just to "correct" them blindly. --Mirokado (talk) 18:14, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. A large percentage of them are due to copy-pastes from other sources. Only a minority are due to people using external editors that auto-curlyize the quotes.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  10:01, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

::I agree too. What should we make the bot do about a possible copyvio? PhilrocMy contribs 13:20, 7 October 2016 (UTC) Actually, I agree with @Reidgreg: on the fact that if we use curlies as a copyvio indicator, there will be a lot of false positives. PhilrocMy contribs 13:25, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Above: Just to point out the "why" of curliest in the present, it's a combination of lazy copy-and-paste of quotes from websites, and/or editing in a word processor and then copying over to the Wikipedia editing window. / Above: Only a minority are due to people using external editors that auto-curlyize the quotes. Sometimes it's none of these. One article I often edit has had curly quotes since its start. I carefully curlify my quotes when I add them. This change from normal practice amuses me. As far as I know, nobody has objected to either the abundance of curly quotes in that article or to my addition of them. I've never thought either that I ought to decurl the quotes there or that I should curl the quotes elsewhere. Perhaps it would have been better if Mediawiki had provided a preprocessor for the (X)HTML Q tag; it doesn't, and this really doesn't matter, compared with (for example) the endemic PR work that infects articles with "prestigious", "legendary", and similar bullshit. -- Hoary (talk) 00:12, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Ohconfucius's scripts, which I run, zap the curlies. I think 15% is a conservative estimate. Tony (talk) 00:31, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
If you'd like to zap the curlies within my article, be my guest. But really, why should people bother with this when their intellects are easily up to the removal of "iconic", "is recognized [by whom?] as", and suchlike twaddle? -- Hoary (talk) 01:09, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
@Hoary: Having MediaWiki, or at least en.wp's own site-side CSS and Javascript, do something intelligent with <q>...</q> has been added to my to-do list. I think it would be desirable for numerous reasons to markup up inline quotation with this element and to allow people who insist on curly quotes in their output get them. However, this won't do anything for non-quotation uses of quotation marks, e.g. "scare quotes", song titles, etc.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  07:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

@Reidgreg: @EEng: @Herostratus: @Oknazevad: @Mr Stephen: @Jc3s5h: @Mirokado: @SMcCandlish: @Hoary: @Tony1: Hey, maybe we could make the bot put in this template that I made that tells people that there are curlies that need to be replaced, but also says that curlies are an indicator of a possible copyvio, and that the article needs to be checked as well. PhilrocMy contribs 14:29, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

The template looks good though I'd be concerned about putting it on, potentially, 1 in 6 articles. It seems to me that a particularly clever bot could look for curlified text, google it, and then put up {{copypaste}} or a custom template with its results, though this could generate false-positives from sites that mirror wikipedia. I'll try to investigate more as I'm able. I don't suppose if anyone reading this knows whether there are bots looking for copypaste edits? - Reidgreg (talk) 20:26, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

English (International) keyboard layout found.[edit]

46.130.34.150 (talk) 19:47, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

There is a keyboard layout called “English (International)”, a enhanced version of US Layout. It can type most languages in Latin script including Vietnamese and Chinese, a limited set for IPA letters (enough for English IPA), lots of dead keys, smart quotes, various (mostly African and IPA) phonetic letters, dashes, Greek letters (no diacritics) and other symbols. There also superscript/subscript numeral characters too, but unlike plain US-International, there is no pre-composed fractions. English (International) requires fractions to use used by slash and super/sub-scripted numbers.

The English (International) layout can be used in a US-Keyboard. English (International) characters are not labeled. The AltGr can be on right alt key, but some US keyboards label “AltGr” without the “Gr”.

I think Wikipedians should use this layout, since it has useful Unicode characters. It should be downloaded and installed. This would allow to type smart quotes and dashes easily in Wikipedia. Instead of "a text", we would use “a text” instead.

http://kbd-intl.narod.ru/english/en — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.130.34.150 (talk) 19:47, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

The MOS says we shouldn't use curly quotes, and ease of typing is not the only argument against them. nyuszika7h (talk) 20:36, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Not all Wikipedians use a US keyboard of any description. My top row goes !"£$%^&*()_+ compare that to your !@#$%^&*()_+ and you'll notice the pound sign has been replaced by a hash and the quotes by an at sign. The physical layout is also different. On the right hand side you have 3 keys ([]\{}|), 2 keys (;':") and 3 keys (,./<>?), UK keyboards have 2 ([]{}), 3 (;'#:@~) and then the same 3. Even if you made touch typing a prerequisite for editing I'd still be hitting Enter for \| and trying to complete lines with #~ Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:42, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Policy on names of organizations[edit]

The policy on names of organization (such as expanding abbreviations and omitting the "Ltd") found at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Cue sports § Respect for official organization names should be introduced into the main style manual and not remain ghettoed in the cue sports policy section. See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Names which suggests that the cue sports recommendations should be taken as general. Best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 09:56, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

And/or[edit]

Not sure I want to start a huge thread on this minor point, but I'm not sure of the value of recent edits re and/or (whole spread here). For example, the current formulation is misleading: "and/or" does not always mean the same thing grammatically as simply "or". Personally, I'd happily allow it, as the less bulky and proscriptive the MOS is when it comes to perfectly good and useful phrases, the better. But if the bar is going to be maintained, surely the first para of the old wording on its own is clear and succinct enough. The second para there, and the latest version as a whole, both seem a little excessive in terms of detail and justification. N-HH talk/edits 18:09, 9 October 2016 (UTC)