Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

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Irish parliament[edit]

Article namespace double-disambiguation[edit]

I would like to get a confirmed consensus agreed and put into WP:IMOS on what convention should be employed in regards to article names, for when the issue has arised in the past, there is always disagreement between a few editors (including me) over a preferred manual of style, and the discussion always seems to be left unresolved with editors simply removing themselves from the discussion. Thus there never seems to be a consensus to call upon when the issue, as it inevitably, as it has recently, re-arises.

There is more than one place in the island of Ireland called Castlereagh, thankfully all located in different counties or civil parishes so we add a simple disambiguation title such as "Castlereagh, County Down" or "Castlereagh, County Offaly". This seems to be the common standard for place names anywhere in the world when it comes to situations such as this looking at various articles such as Leitrim, Aughrim, Ballykelly, Newcastle etc.

If there is two different types of geographical unit that have the same name, for example "Keenaght", which can either be a townland (a small unit of land in Ireland) or a barony (a far larger unit of land), then the common standard seems to be the use of brackets, hence we have "Keenaght (barony)" and "Keenaght (townland)", with Keenaght being a disambiguation page. The use of brackets for different types of unit is also used to distinguish: the town of Ballymena from Ballymena (borough); the town of Carrickfergus from Carrickfergus (barony) (and Carrickfergus (song), Carrickfergus (poem) incidentally); the disambiguation page Ards (a lot of different uses for that term) from Ards (territory), Ards (borough), Ards (Northern Ireland Parliament constituency); the town of Newcastle-under-Lyme from Newcastle-under-Lyme (borough) and Newcastle-under-Lyme (UK Parliament constituency); etc. etc. etc.

Going by the discussion between myself and Jnestorius at Talk:Castlereagh_(County_Down_townland)#Merger_proposal, we seem to agree that the above seems to be the way of handling such disambiguation. Now here comes the bit that seems to be the crux of the issue and it is where we disagree... How do you disambiguate two different types of entity that are both in the same place that also needs disambiguated from the same thing in a different place? For example "Castlereagh, County Down" can refer to a townland but also to a barony, however there are other baronies and townlands in Ireland called Castlereagh. My personal opinion is to use "Castlereagh, County Down (townland)" and "Castlereagh, County Down (barony)". Jnestorius prefers "Castlereagh (County Down townland)" and "Castlereagh (County Down barony)", which they have also used for "Castlereagh (County Roscommon barony)".

The standard for places of the same name in different locations gives "Castlereagh, County Down" and "Castlereagh, County Roscommon". The standard for different types of unit of same name gives "Castlereagh (barony)" and "Castlereagh (townland)". Ergo logically combining these two standards produces "Castlereagh, County Down (townland)" and "Castlereagh, County Down (barony)" and that is what I believe should be the accepted MoS for double-disambiguation.

Mabuska (talk) 17:28, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

As you say, it's a case of double-disambiguation. The question then is, which is to be the primary disambiguator? If it is the location, then "Castlereagh, County Down" becomes "Castlereagh, County Down (townland)" and "Castlereagh, County Down (barony)". If, on the other hand, it is the entity, then "Castlereagh (barony)" becomes "Castlereagh (County Down barony)" and "Castlereagh (County Roscommon barony)". Either is a logical combination of the two, but neither is the logical combination. Either a case has to be made for each of the two, and the stronger argument decides, or one has to be chosen arbitrarily. Scolaire (talk) 18:22, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I know that me and Jnestorius disagree with each other on what one, and I don't think either or us will change our minds so it may have to be chosen arbitrarily, though my argument to me is logical based upon the standards we already use for place and unit, and frankly looks better and more encyclopedic. On your suggestion, I would say (obviously) that location is the primary disambiguator. Why? Because we already have several different Castlereagh baronies and townlands, so obviously the type can't be the primary disambiguator but location. The use of a type is as a secondary disambiguator. That is plain from the fact both mine and Jnestorius' preferred choices put location before type. Mabuska (talk) 19:53, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Actually, the statement "we already have several different Castlereagh baronies and townlands" uses entity as the primary disambiguator. It says that within the entity set there are items at different locations. And putting one word before another doesn't say anything about precedence. "County Down barony" is good English and "barony County Down" is not, that's all. I'm not taking sides here; I'd just like to see stronger arguments. Scolaire (talk) 22:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Honestly I don't think stronger arguments can be given by either side. Personally my preference combines the standards used for same name different place and same name different type. I was going to post this at the Disambiguation WikiProject and may yet request their advice as this issue may intrigue them and they may know of other examples elsewhere that can help. Mabuska (talk) 10:43, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I think that would be a good idea. That talk page is more active than this one, and participants are more used to debating the pros and cons of disambiguation. A word of advice: make it brief and make it neutral. You summed it up well in a few sentences in your first post: How do you disambiguate two different types of entity that are both in the same place that also need disambiguated from the same thing in a different place? For example "Castlereagh, County Down" can refer to a townland but also to a barony, however there are other baronies and townlands in Ireland called Castlereagh. My personal opinion is to use "Castlereagh, County Down (townland)" and "Castlereagh, County Down (barony)". [Another user] prefers "Castlereagh (County Down townland)" and "Castlereagh (County Down barony)", which they have also used for "Castlereagh (County Roscommon barony)". Any more detail is TL;DR, and an explanation of why your version is (obviously) right is more likely to kill discussion than encourage it. Scolaire (talk) 12:06, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
My belief is that "Placename, County CName" is only Wikipedia:NATURAL where there is only one place of that name in the county. In all other cases it is not natural and hence ought not to be used. The only time someone would use the formula "Castlereagh, County Down" to refer to the townland (as opposed to the barony or borough) would be in a context where it was clear only townlands were being discussed but not clear what part of the island was meant. Maybe if they were giving a list of Irish townlands? Rather artificial. I'm not sure conventions elsewhere are applicable: e.g. Attica (town), New York and Attica (village), New York look weird to me. jnestorius(talk) 08:16, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
For those examples I'd have used Attice, New York (village) etc. I will go ahead and post Scolaire's suggestion at the disambiguation project page and see what they think. It might be intriguing enough for them. Mabuska (talk) 11:54, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I've requested their help. Mabuska (talk) 13:15, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
And here as well as there seems to be two, though I think the original request was not the actual WikiProject. Mabuska (talk) 15:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
The second one (the WikiProject) is for disambiguation pages, as opposed to disambiguation in article titles. Typically, the only replies you got so far are there. Scolaire (talk) 22:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

@Mabuska: it is now seven days since you posted the request at WikiProject Disambiguation. Only one member has offered an opinion, and he/she has come down in favour of brackets over commas. Having asked the question, I think you will have to accept the answer. Scolaire (talk) 16:56, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

This issue only affects four articles, one of which (the Roscommon townland) is a redlink, and the other (Roscommon barony) is a very tiny stub only created by Jnestorius after the issue arose so that they could reinforce their argument against me using Castlereagh (barony) and Castlereagh (townland) as the primary topic namespaces for the County Down versions. Reasonable enough, if there is a good reason to deny them the primary topic namespace.
There is another possible solution. Considering Castlereagh (County Down townland) is an actual article of sourced content and that Castlereagh (County Down barony) will be more substantial when I get around to it (in the style of Ards (territory) and Lecale, that they occupy the primary topic namespaces of Castlereagh (barony) and Castlereagh (townland), with "For the..." at the top of each article pointing to the obvious. Considering the high probability that the Roscommon townland version remains a redlink and the barony one a very tiny stub—unless Jnestorius decides to work on them—they could be in one article titled Castlereagh, County Roscommon, which mentions that they are both land units in that county. Problem solved. Mabuska (talk) 22:02, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
@Jnestorius: @Scolaire: Mabuska (talk) 20:43, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
"Problem solved" -- what problem do you think is solved by moving Castlereagh (County Down townland) to Castlereagh (townland)? jnestorius(talk) 00:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
And why ping me? I offered the completely disinterested view that if you ask a question at the relevant WikiProject you should go with what you're told there. If you decide to go off and do something different that's no concern of mine. Scolaire (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
Simply because you left thr last reply before mine thinking I should accept the answer. At Jnestorius - this problem, what else? Do you have an actual argument as to why they can't occupy the primary topic namespaces? Or do you want to keep avoiding answering directly as your unreasonableness of this issue really goes to new heights. There is no other Castlereagh townland article on this site so why can't the County Down townland article occupy the primary topic namespace? It can include a "For other townlands in Ireland called Castlereagh see Castlereagh (disambiguation)" at the top of it for the redlinked townlands, which would be standard practice on Wikipedia. Or will you decide to go and create them for badness just like the Roscommon barony? Mabuska (talk) 22:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


I have added a bit re Derry / Londonderry asking people to keep to the pattern even when the subject relates to one side of the sectarian divide. This appears to be the way in which existing appeals to this guideline expect it to be interpreted but I thought it would be good to be explicit. Hope that's okay. --Money money tickle parsnip (talk) 21:56, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Category:British politicians convicted of crimes[edit]

I have been involved, in a minor manner, in one of the places this is being discussed. An RFC has been put out too. Talk:Martina Anderson. Murry1975 (talk) 13:02, 11 November 2015 (UTC)