Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout

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WikiProject Manual of Style
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the Layout of header sections, I think it needs more[edit]

I was reading the header part of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Order of article elements and that made me wonder:

  • Can/ should a page have more than one infobox ? (the list speaks in the plural)
  • Should the "Foreign character warning boxes" not be before the info boxes? (assuming that the infobox can contain the foreign characters)

The info on this section is very minimal, more information can be found at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section but then there is no link to that page. (not regarding the headers that is) But even then does this part (the header of an article) not deserve its own Wikipedia:Manual of Style/header section subpage? I did make a link of Navigational boxes (header navboxes) to wikipedia:SIDEBAR and maybe this part can also be expanded on that page. (not all sidebars are relevant here I guess) WillemienH (talk) 23:58, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding multiple infoboxes, it's sometimes done when a subject is notable in multiple domains. Pat Connaughton plays both basketball and baseball, and has both types of infoboxes. While this "can" happen, it probably shouldn't as it looks clunky IMO; in the ideal world, infoboxes would be more modular to allow for the rare hybrid case. Some infoboxes are designed to include others—see Mark Harmon, who is an actor and former athlete—but even that has some rough edges.—Bagumba (talk) 22:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
It's confusing that at WP:ORDER the term "Lead section" is used for the initial chunk of text (listed as the first part of "Body", after a group of items under "Headers"), while the link WP:Lead section leads us to a page which includes all of those "Headers" items as "Elements of the lead".
It would also be useful to have a more detailed list of "what goes where" to include:
They are distinct from the maintenance templates, in that they are permanent aspects of the article - in the case of "Italic title" it's a bit of code to produce an effect, in the other cases a note for editors - but nothing that needs to be dated, or removed when actioned. I think they probably go alongside the Foreign character warning boxes, but it would be helpful if they had a specific home so that their presence or otherwise in an article could be checked quickly. Perhaps all that's needed is for "Foreign character warning boxes" in WP:ORDER to be replaced by some broader category which would clearly include these other things. PamD 15:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm late to discussion, but I agree—I'd like more specific instructions for this sort of thing, including the {{coord}} template.—DocWatson42 (talk) 06:23, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
@DocWatson42: Unless part of the infobox, {{coord}} doesn't go in the header but in the last section, after the succession boxes and navboxes, but before the defaultsort and categories. See MOS:ORDER item 4 sub-item 2. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:13, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
@Redrose64: Oh, foo. I would have sworn I'd read otherwise somewhere (that it goes in the top of articles), back when. <sigh> I think that makes more sense, given the "title" display parameter.—DocWatson42 (talk) 10:57, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Although the |display=title parameter means that the coords are displayed in the same place on the physical page regardless of the location of {{coord}} in the page source, this is only true for sighted people. For those reliant on screen readers, such as Graham87 (talk · contribs), the order of the page source is crucial, since this governs the order in which the screen reader announces each item. This is why (for example) we insist that hatnotes go first of all. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
Indeed. The easiest way for me to find the coordinates on a page is to use my screen reader's find feature to search for "coord". Graham87 05:40, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Issue: unable to find MOS/Layout doc for template 'Subject bar'[edit]

Greetings, In my reading through various articles, I found Ælfheah of Canterbury which uses the {{Subject bar}} template. In the MOS/Layout archives, there is mention from 2011 here when template was created. Wondering if Subject bar documentation needs to be added into MOS/Layout section? Or am I just not looking in the right place within MOS? Regards,  JoeHebda (talk)  15:20, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

WP:MOSSIS. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:51, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Section merge proposed[edit]

Wikipedia:Wikimedia sister projects#Where to place links mostly needs to merge into Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Links to sister projects. It's wrong-headed and confusing for MOS material to be not in the MOS, and we should not be forking the guidelines. The bulk of the material in that WP:SIS section, and its WP:MOSSIS shortcut (like MOS:SIS), need to go to the actual MOS:LAYOUT section about this. The section on this at WP:SIS can be replaced with a one-liner concise summary, and a {{Main}} pointer to the MOS:LAYOUT section.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:06, 20 February 2016 (UTC) Updated, after confusion resolved, below.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  01:22, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Links to sister projects should be the definitive source, with a partial description (maybe a paragraph or some bullet points) at Wikipedia:Wikimedia sister projects#Where to place links along with a {{main article}} article link to the former. So, Support, but with more than "a one-liner summary" left at the latter.Godsy(TALKCONT) 22:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
    • [Adjusted to reflect note below and correction of the post above.] [I think your first link was meant to be Wikipedia:Wikimedia sister projects#Where to place links.] I can't agree. <isn>Right. If it is article layout style advice, it belongs in MoS; all other aspects of it should be covered at WP:SISTER. We have had grievous difficulties, causing a lot of strife, when people try to advice-fork (and it's almost always a WP:POVFORK or rapidly becomes one) style advice out of MoS, to make some competing "un-MoS". Site-wide consensus has centralized WP style advice at MoS for very good reasons for over a decade. As for what to leave behind, sorry, I was being hyperbolic when I said one-liner. The gist is to have a compact summary in one place with {{Main}} linking to the other, and the details provided there, with an HTML comment noting to keep the sections synched (we need a lot more of those). Another concern with reversing the direction point in favor of the proposal is that virtually no one knows WP:SISTER even exists; we all know where MOS is, and MOS:LAYOUT is well-watchlisted and frequently consulted.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:00, 21 March 2016 (UTC) Updated.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  01:22, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is something for the Wikipedia:Wikimedia sister project to take the lead the placing of links has next to nothing to do with style, any more that WP:Article Titles or Citations do. -- PBS (talk) 12:45, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Biographies: Section order referring to "end of life"[edit]

There are "no general standards or guidelines" concerning section headings or "what order they should take", and I am not aware of some mentioned consensus, but I would appreciate some input concerning one such section placement. There is some precedent specifically if there is a "Biography" or "Personal life" section that "end of life" content or sub-sections are found at the end of such content. On other articles, and I have not looked to see if this stems from article creation or through continued editing, there is a mix of results.

It just seems natural that some things follow a path. If there is a section titled "Death", "Death and burial", "Assassination", "Final years and death", or some other title reflecting end of life, or such content reflected at the end of another section, it should be at the end of the body of the article, and not as an appendage with other "life content" following. Of course I am sure there are exceptions.

Things such as "Legacy", "Memorials", "Descendants" or "Ancestry", "Tributes", and "Bibliography" are natural after an "end of life" mention, section, or sub-section, but newer editors, without some sort of guidance, may not consider this so I thought I would bring it up. It just seems weird to read "guy (or gal) is born, goes through life, dies, then--- gets married or has a family".

I have seen Featured articles such as Horace Greeley, William Henry Harrison, Good articles like Émile Durkheim, and even stub-class articles such as Robert Hamilton Bishop have an order where an "end of life" event is at the bottom of the main body.

If this has come up, or there is already consensus concerning this, would someone let me know? Otr500 (talk) 23:10, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

There's no way to make a blanket rule, or even recommendation-subject-to-exceptions, on this. The best way to present material isn't always chronological. In fact, I'd wager that most well-developed articles aren't robotically chronological. EEng 02:39, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Placement of {{Portal bar}}[edit]

Greetings, In response to your edit removing 'Portal bar' from SA section. The location for this template was discussed at Template talk:Portal bar#Location previously in 2012. I have not reverted your edit but am wondering whether this needs more clarification. For the articles that I'm updating, usually I place the portal bar template as first line after See also line. If there are many SA entries, I place the Portal template instead so the portals are stacked vertically and to the right side. Rarely do I see the portal bar after the External links section. Regards, JoeHebda • (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I didn't "remove" it - I put it back where it came from, since Template:Portal bar#Location says "within articles, this template is usually placed at the bottom of the article". It doesn't name a section, but implies the last section, which won't be "See also" in any article that has references and also follows MOS:ORDER - it'll be "References", "Further reading" or "External links".
Changes to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout should be discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout or at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. If you amended Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout as a result of a discussion, you should have linked to that discussion in your edit summary. Since you had not done so, I checked both of those talk pages, and found no mention of portal templates - bar or otherwise. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:14, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
(was coming here to explain why I reverted ...but section already started) I have restored the edit as per the documentation page and normal usage of portals. I have also update the doc page to reflect the lead of the doc and its normal usage. Even-thought the template is not a guideline its just an essay the see also section for this is the norm so the MOS should reflect that. -- Moxy (talk)
(end of moved content)

Regarding this revert: the recommendation where to place {{Portal bar}} should not be lumped together with {{Portal}} because their appearance is fundamentally different. The former should go at the bottom of the article where all page-wide boxes congregate. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:04, 23 June 2016 (UTC)


Closed stagnant RfC. The number of participants is so small that this discussion does not possess sufficient force to change a Manual of Style for millions of editors and millions of articles.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello, everyone.

I think a bold change by yours truly, and a couple of forth and back reverts by our esteemed colleagues Redrose64, JoeHebda and Moxy has very well demonstrated that we need to discuss this issue: Must {{portal bar}} appear in "See also" section, or along with navboxes?

Argument in favor of "See also" section:

  1. That's where portal links, such as {{Portal}} and {{Portal-inline}} appear. Why should {{Portal bar}} be exempt?

Argument in favor of navboxes section:

  1. Visually, {{Portal bar}} fits better with navboxes
  2. Navboxes contain internal links strictly; but they don't appear in "See also" section either, in order to suppress the effects of link bombing.
  3. {{Portal bar}}, like most navboxes, does not appear in the print, again for the same reason.
  4. Some navboxes, such as {{Microsoft}} have portal links as well, so portals do not strictly appear in "See also" section anyway

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 08:40, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Poll area[edit]

Here is where you can add your choice of "See also" or With navboxes, along with you rationale.

  • "See also". The reason it was invented was to make sure the portals did not overlap into the section below. Was not intended as a footer...but as the last thing people see before non internal sections (refs, external links etc.). We should not be hiding the portals at the bottom of the page after all the external should be with the content of the page. Plus the fact many footers have the portals the bottom of the page would have redundant links. Moxy (talk) 11:08, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
  • See also. And Navboxes should be in See also too. But that is a discussion for another day. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 12:09, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
  • With navboxes or, more generally, at the bottom of the article, because that doesn't disrupt the appearance of the article. If navboxes on a page already have links to portals, {{portal bar}}, or {{portal}}, should be omitted. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:59, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
  • "It depends" – I put together a wikitable at User talk:JoeHebda/sandbox1#Portal placement examples rather than adding it here. Hoping this clarifies the choices for portal placement in articles, depending on the article's existing content. JoeHebda • (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm ammending my vote to Subject bar template instead. See subsection below. JoeHebda • (talk) 12:55, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
  • See also section. Also support combining the redundant templates into {{Subject bar}} (or into one of the others, as long as they're combined), whether that template is used in the "See also" section or used as a navbox at the bottom of the page; it depends on the form of the template (if it's a navbox, it goes with the navboxes; if it's something smaller, keep it in "See also" along with the interwiki templates, etc.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  23:53, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Discussion area[edit]

The invaluable discussions take place here.

* FYI – There is Portal explanation at Wikipedia:Portal#How to add portal links to articles. It also mentions about portal placement. JoeHebda • (talk) 13:28, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

As does Template:Portal#Location.... that I recently added to Template:Portal bar#Location that perhaps should be reverted till this talk is over? -- Moxy (talk)
Moxy – Yes it might be a good idea to revert those. I'm glad we are having this discussion, a great change to clarify this portal topic. Hoping to get multiple votes from editors, especially with more experience than mine. Regards, JoeHebda • (talk) 20:17, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done....Should be noted the intro at Template:Portal bar/doc explains the bars purpose for being made. -- Moxy (talk)

Another option, Subject bar template[edit]

Greetings, After much searching I finally located this template which I had only seen once or twice.

Template:Subject bar

Wondering if this Subject bar template would be a better alternative than these three?

In the Subject bar documentation it explains placement & reason to use.

This navigational template is intended be placed at the end of an article, after the References or External links and before any navboxes and categories. It offers an variant to several floating box templates that link to books, portals, and Wikipedia's sister projects but also typically cause formatting issues because of their size and alignment.

For example:

{{Subject bar |portal1= Biography |portal2= Primates |portal3= Madagascar}}

Regards, JoeHebda • (talk) 16:02, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

* Seeking more discussion:

Greetings to (Redrose64PBSEEngOtr500SMcCandlishGodsyPamDButwhatdoiknowBagumbaIzno) – Asking for your comments regarding MOS / Layout, discussion about templates "Portal", "portal bar", "portal-inline" and "Subject bar". Looking for a consensus of where best article placement. Regards, JoeHebda • (talk) 13:10, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Comment Summoned by ping. I'm afraid I haven't enough of a feel for the role played by navboxes and so on to have anything useful to add to the conversation. EEng 17:55, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
  • As noted above, I support combining the three templates, but don't care in which direction. If it's a navbox, put it with the rest of the navboxes; if it's something smaller put it in "See also" with interwiki templates, etc.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  23:55, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2016[edit]

Basiliscowerdelyne (talk) 02:56, 3 July 2016 (UTC) •write the important details.

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — JJMC89(T·C) 03:03, 3 July 2016 (UTC)