Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout

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WikiProject Manual of Style
WikiProject icon This page falls within the scope of WikiProject Manual of Style, a drive to identify and address contradictions and redundancies, improve language, and coordinate the pages that form the MoS guidelines.

Deprecating the "In popular culture" heading[edit]

FYI: Pointer to relevant topic elsewhere.

Please comment on the proposal at:

 — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  09:50, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Placement of {{good article}}[edit]

Where should {{good article}} be placed in WP:ORDER? (Ping Rjwilmsi for AWB-coding) According to the template it should be above #5 in "¶Footer". Can it be added to the list? (tJosve05a (c) 01:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

{{good article}} uses {{top icon}}, which during the course of 26-27 March 2015 was altered to use the new <indicator>...</indicator> feature (see Template talk:Top icon#Page status indicators and most subsequent threads). This means that as far as accessibility is concerned, the placement of {{good article}} is no longer critical: the page as served always has the HTML for the GA icon just before the main page heading no matter where it is placed in the page source. It emits categories, so its placement relative to other category-emitting templates (as well as the actual cats) is still significant. --Redrose64 (talk) 08:01, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
The template documentation for good article says "This template should be placed at the bottom of the article before defaultsort, categories and interwikis." Also, if an article is now a good article, it can be given the good article badge on Wikidata. Jason Quinn (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Duplicate wikilink[edit]

#Section templates and summary style shows "references to such articles may be placed immediately after the section heading for that section, provided this does not duplicate a wikilink in the text." The last part is redundant and causes confusion. At first I thought that it was referring to something different from WP:REPEATLINK. SLBedit (talk) 14:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Seems clear to me. It just means that if a link naturally appears in the section it should not also be given by a {{see also}} or similar template. This is the same guidance as for links in the See also section, e.g. WP:NOTSEEALSO. If the links occur naturally as wikilinks within article text then there is no need to provide additional links in a See also section or hatnote. It is redundant in that it says mostly the same thing but many of our guidelines do this.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 14:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay. I looked at Wikipedia and it is not respecting that guideline, in three sections. SLBedit (talk) 15:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Agree with JohnBlackburne. I've been fixing these quite a few myself. Cheers! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:19, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
What if the duplicate link links to a section? Should we keep it? SLBedit (talk) 00:05, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
And what if the {{see also}} repeats a link in a navigation box but does not repeat in the article's body? SLBedit (talk) 05:28, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

"See also" content[edit]

Is it acceptable practice to provide links to Wikipedia templates in the "See also" section? Examples of what I'm talking about can be seen here, here, here, and at about 20 other recently-edited artclespace locations.

I've been discussing the matter a little with a few editors and there seems to be two schools of thought:

  • One thought is that this practice might violate the spirit of MOS:SELFREF and that WP:SEEALSO's recommendation to add "internal links to related Wikipedia articles" (emphasis added) implicitly excludes "Wikipedia templates, help pages, manuals of style, etc." The place to publicize Wikipedia's templates, then, would be in "talk" (e.g. WikiProject talk).
  • On the other hand, it has been suggested that the "See also" section of articles on topics like ISBN,,, etc. may be the most likely place for Wikipedia editors to look when they are searching for the appropriate template to use when editing and that adding templates to the "See also" section might be a good way to publicize the existence of some of Wikipedia's more under-utilized templates.

I'm interested in hearing the community's view on this and then altering the text of WP:SEEALSO to clarify the situation.
I've cross-posted a request for participants to this discussion here as well.

Prior discussions/background: 1, 2, 3
Thanks in advance for your comments. -Thibbs (talk) 15:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Pinging editors previously discussing this issue: Knife-in-the-drawer, Magioladitis, Jeraphine Gryphon -Thibbs (talk) 15:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the ping. I'm pretty sure that for now I subscribe to the first school of thought you listed. I'm willing to listen to counterarguments to it, though. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 15:10, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Absolutely the first school of thought. --Izno (talk) 17:17, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Clearly case #1. Passive links to templates don't belong into article space or article category space (or any other page aimed at users in their role as readers rather than editors). It's a name space violation - it's like a goof in a movie, or a blue screen with crash dump. It looks unprofessional, as the goal of our collaborative efforts, the product, is to present an encyclopedia, not to disturb the reader with how it was done. Beyond the artistic point of view as authors, such name space or layer violations can also cause technical problems, f.e. when the work needs to be transferred to other media.
I acknowledge, however, that templates can be sometimes hard to find. To promote the existance and usage of a template, it should be mentioned on the article's talk page. Perhaps there are other means to promote a template as well, but this would be beyond the scope of this discussion in regard to WP:SEEALSO, I think.
--Matthiaspaul (talk) 18:38, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

RFC on Position of Refimprove tag[edit]

An RfC is now in progress on the proper position of {{refimprove}} in an article, adn the degree to which this page's suggestions indicate consensus for putting it at the top of an article. The RFC is at Template talk:Refimprove#RfC: Location of Tag, and the formal RfC statement is: "Where should a {{refimprove}} tag be placed in an article? MOS:LAYOUT says that maintenance templates, of which this is one, should be among the headers. But some editors (see the section above) assert that there is no consensus for this, and that the MOS does not establish such consensus. I ask for discussion leading to a clear consensus one way or the other on this point." Additional views are welcome. DES (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2015 (UTC)