Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

Punctuation Style

When punctuating quoted passages, I believe punctuation can belong inside or outside the quotation marks, depending on the meaning, even though the British style calls for them to be always within the quotation marks.

As an American, I have never quite accepted the idea that punctuation should go inside the quotes as often as style manuals seems to insist. I'm not clear what the British alternative is, however. Are there any links here, or could someone provide a brief set of examples? --Ryguasu

Example added. Ortolan88

Thanks. How about punctuation for As John Doe points out, "The man with the most cheese molds the least." Americans would obsessively put the period inside the quotation marks. Is this true for British folks as well? --Ryguasu

Um, there's no obsession about it. If it is a complete sentence, the punctuation goes inside in both countries. The MOS has always said that. Ortolan88

Ortolan88 is right. If you were to be perfectly logical about it, you would write

As John Doe points out, "The man with the most cheese molds the least.".

because there the quotation is a complete sentence (requiring a period) while it sits at the end of another complete sentence (requiring its own period). I will often use just this style, since I'm a hyperlogical person, but most people regard it as too ugly, so the usual style convention is to keep only the period inside the quotation marks. (It might just as easily have gone the other way, however.) What distinguishes the two countries' systems is:

John Doe called him "the man with the most cheese".

Here the quotation is not a complete sentence (thus requiring no period), so the style above is the one demanded by pedantic logic. Since this style is not ugly, we can use it in ordinary writing, and the British do; the Americans, however, move the period inside the quotation marks, because ... I dunno why, they just do. — Toby 09:14 Nov 3, 2002 (UTC)

As I understand it, it is a prejudice of American printers that little bits like periods look "bad" hanging outside the "quotes". I don't agree and I have to catch myself when I'm writing commercially to do it the American way, but in everything I write for myself I do it British style and I was delighted to note when I was working up the Manual of Style that British was already the convention in Wikipedia. Ortolan88

On quotations and punctuation marks

Right now our official policy is to put punctuation marks inside quotation marks if it is a full quotation, but outside the quotation marks if it is a partial quotation. I've been looking at many encyclopedias and found that this is uncommon even in British publications. does anybody else feel that the current policy is needlessly confusing... or am I simply being an Ugly American here? I'd like to change it to have a uniform "punctuation goes inside quotation marks" style, but I really don't want to step on anyone's toes – just looking for a few comments on the issue. ;) [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 16:52, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

The present official policy is in agreement with what is done in many (most? all?) other languages. You should consider the fact that many contributors here do not have English as their first language and have in fact learnt in school/university that the punctuation only goes inside the quotation marks if it actually belongs there in the first place. The only reason to do otherwise is, I guess, typographical, and I don't really find it much of an aesthetic improvement to get the empty space in one place rather than in an other./Tupsharru 17:19, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The rule has been in there since the first draft. I believe it is clearer that way. There were many examples of this usage in the Wikipedia already. I tried to make the first draft reflect what was already "best practice" in Wikipedia. Ortolan88 22:21, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Personally, I can never remember what the policy is, so I generally just fake it. (I've read enough British authors over the years that my sense of such things is confused. In other words, my gut instinct is unreliable.) There would be something to be said for a system that is entirely consistent (and therefore easier to remember).

However, at the moment there is so much inconsistency with regard to punctuation that I almost wonder if it is worth the effort to have a rule. (Trying to enforce any change would be very difficult. Not that the current "rule" is enforced.)--[[User:Aranel|Aranel

("Sarah")]] 22:30, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Like the rest of the Manual of Style, none of the rules here are enforced, but when someone who loves copy-editing comes along to tend to an article, maybe quite an old one, they can look in the Manual of Style for guidance on consistency. Not that the rule is all that hard to remember: If the punctuation is part of what is being quoted, put it inside the quotes, and if it is not part of what is being quoted, leave it out. That is, the quotation marks contain only what is being quoted. Ortolan88 22:57, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

 

The current Wikipedia policy is often called "logical quotation". I far prefer it, despite what I was taught in school, and always use it when not prevented. Proponents of "typographical quotation" claimed it "looks better". Too often, I believed, it did not look better. It looked stupid. This is especially so in lists of words and meanings. For example, using logical punctuation:

Three French words with related meanings are maison 'house', domaine 'estate, property', and château 'castle'.

This seems to be me to be more understandable and better looking than:

Three French words with related meanings are maison 'house,' domaine, 'estate, property,' and château 'castle.'

(The use of single quotation marks here rather than double quotation marks is standard linguistics usage when indicating a meaning of a previous word or phrase regardless of whether in the article as a whole double quotation marks or singlular quotation marks are used for top level quoting. I use it in Wikipedia since I prefer it and guideliness currently don't specify and the convention has spread to technical writing outside of linguistics. But using double quotation marks wouldn't change the point.)

Now if you aren't at all concerned with meaning, it is possible that at some level of abstract design that always putting a small base-line punctuation mark before a small high punctuation mark is aesthetically better, if there is an absolute in asethetics. But in parsing a sentence we are concerned with meaning.

This is only my personal feeling, not binding on anyone. If the Wikipedia Style Guide specifications had specified typographical quotation, I would bend to its whims. But considering that logical punctuation is specified in prestigious British style guides and in some general technical style guides, it is doubtful that such a rule would have stayed fixed in Wikipedia. The only reasonable choices are between letting the editor choose and logical quotation everywhere.

From The Canadian Web Magazine for the Writing Trade: Placement of Punctuation and Quotation Marks:

In a literary work, we recommend the American style of always placing periods and commas inside the quotation marks. In a technical or legal work, where accuracy is essential, we recommend the British practice of placing periods and commas within quotation marks only when they are part of the quoted material.

I take Wikipedia as more technical than literary and this recommendation to come from noting increased use of logical punctuation in academic and technical writing outside of Britain.

Jallan 00:17, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Various observations: The comma and period inside the quotes "look better" only when true typography is used to place the quote over the punctuation, so that's not really an argument for doing it. My arguments for doing it come from Chicago and many other American style guides, but most acknowledge the historic reasons for the punctuation order. In technical style guides here, it is not the general case for punctuation to go outside the quotes, only when what's inside the quotes is an exact value (as in: type this URL into the field: "http://www.foo.com".). However, I have no problem using the Wikipedia style guide and editing according to that. Elf | Talk 15:52, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Quotation marks: New policy proposal

• With quotation marks, we have no rigid rule. Some users prefer using one style (punctuation goes outside the quotation marks when quoting only part of a sentence, but inside when quoting a compete sentence), while other prefer another style (punctuation always goes inside quotation marks).

I prefer the "rigid rule" that is presently in place, not because it is a rigid rule, but because it gives guidance to editors, that is, if the punctuation is part of the quote, quote it, if not part of the quote, don't quote it. Keep in mind, that which is frequently forgotten in these discussions, the purpose of any manual of style is consistency. This proposal will result in inconsistency and gives no guidance to editors. Contributors in general don't pay much attention to the Manual of Style so far as I can tell. This is good, because a lot of the Manual of Style is intimidating to people not accustomed to editorial markup.

If I am reading correctly, this "no rigid rule" paragraph is the only part of this proposed policy that is actually new, the rest is pretty much as it already is in the Manual of Style. Ortolan88 03:24, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC) PS -- I should state my bias. I wrote the first draft of the Manual of Style, basing it on what I found in the Wikipedia at that time, and the rule about "logical quotes" was in that first draft because many carefully written articles, including mine, already used it. Ortolan88

Have to agree. Seems like we should just pick one system and move on. (Also, it seems like we already have, so lets.) Chuck 04:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Punctuation should go inside quotes because every legit style manual says to do it this way. It makes Wikipedia look unprofessional to allow otherwise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.44.144.59 (talk) 15:13, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

• Keep in mind that if you're quoting several paragraphs, there should be quotes at the beginning of each paragraph, but only at the end of the last paragraph. For longer quotations, an indented style may be better. Since quotations are already marked by quotation marks or indentations, they need not be italicized.
• It is probably best to use the "double quotes" for most quotations, as they are easier to read on the screen. Use 'single quotes' for "quotations 'within' quotations," or to mark words for attribution.
• Note that if a word appears in an article with single quotes, such as 'abcd', the Wikipedia:Searching facility will find it only if you search for the word with quotes (when trying this out with the example mentioned, remember that this article is in the Wikipedia namespace). Since this is rarely desirable, this problem is an additional reason to use double quotes, for which this problem does not arise. It may even be a reason to use double quotes for quotations within quotations as well.
• For uniformity and to avoid complications use straight quotation marks and apostrophes, not curved (smart) ones or grave accents:
  • Correct: ' "
  • Incorrect: ‘ ’ “ ” `
• If you are pasting text from Microsoft Word, remember to turn off the smart quotes feature by unmarking this feature in AutoEdit and "AutoEdit during typing"! [1]. Many other modern word processors have a smart quotes setting - please read the appropriate documentation for your editor.
• The grave accent (`) is also used as a diacritical mark to indicate a glottal stop; however, the straight quote should be used for this purpose instead (e.g., Hawai'i, not Hawai`i).

I'm planning on adding this revised policy in a week if there are no objections. Comments? [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 03:07, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

Except for the punctuation issue (addressed above) I'm fine except for the Hawaii example. Why are we even addressing a rare character here. My understanding of that character, also used for other Hawaiian words, is that the preference of character use is (i) the Unicode character (there is a specific unicode character defined), (ii) opening left apostrophe, (iii) grave accent, (iv) straight apostrophe. Straight apostrophe might be the most cross-platform, but is the least accurate. Anyway, is this really the right way to open up the rare character can-of-worms. There are plenty of other characters and diacritic marks we would need to address as well. We can start a section to address such characters, but it doesn't belong with quotes. Chuck 04:17, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't see what this change would improve. Maurreen 04:33, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The only real change here is removal of long-standing Wikipedia preference for logical quotation. But editors have long time been writing articles by this standard and correcting articles to fit this standard. As with any change here, consensus is needed. And I don't see that occurring.

I agree with Chuck on the Hawai'i issue, which is controversial and not clear and also not altogether folllowed. Does this mean that when referring to Hawaiian names in an English context one should use the straight quotation rather than the grave, or that even when quoting Hawai'ian forms natively one should do the same? I don't think the latter is intended, or at least would not be understood now as being a reasonable rule. That should be made clear. There is an increasing tendency in general for use of rarer Unicode characters to appear throughout Wikipedia as fonts increasingly support them. I have seen use of the ‘ character in Hawaiian names and the only objector I've seen to it backed down at once when the user made an issue of it, even saying that if the editor wanted to persist in using it against the standard, he'd support the user. It is hard to remember that even as short a time as three years is was considered rather daring on the web to display even common characters outside of ISO Latin-1 without special downloadable fonts and how a few cranks were still raving away on usenet claiming that Unicode couldn't work and that no-one was using it. That no-one is generally addressing the matter of rare characters may indicate that there is no problem to be addressed, that is, that those using rare characters are largely doing so with reasonable restraint and issues raised are being solved reasonably by individual discussions.

Jallan 17:32, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The manual recommends British-style punctuation on US topics??!?!

Where on Earth did people writing the style manual come up with the idea that all articles should use British-standards of punctuation, even on explicitly U.S. topics? I refer here to the sections on quotation marks and serial commas. We follow the spellings of the country of the topic, but not the punctuation? That makes no sense at all. I would strongly encourage that we standardize on the rules used by the appropriate country for topics about that country, both for fairness reasons and for not teaching our readers bad habits. OH,and not to mention that following these rules would mean every US-article would always have major errors for anyone reading it: US readers would see screwed up punctuation and International English readers would see nonstandard spelling. A style decision that guarantees an article is going to be wrong for everyone who reads it is just plain useless. DreamGuy 22:50, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

DreamGuy, please see my proposal above, which, if implemented, would get rid of this problem in its most general form. Perhaps you would like to add your support/constructive comments, jguk 23:22, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Consider these my supportive/constructive comments. But then if the above says that articles about US topics written erroneously using British rules because someone British first started the article, or vice versa with a British topic using US rules, that part is nonsense. It should conform to the country of that topic when thetopic is clear. I did a lot of edits to Jack the Ripper, for instance, and when someone came and said that that's not how they use certain words and punctuation there, I said, fine, I don't know how you were taught, change it to that. If I had insisted that it stay with American rules I would be imposing my rules on another country, which is wrong. DreamGuy 23:41, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

jguk, I don't follow how it addresses this. the MoS has only one set of punctuation rules. It has two (or so) sets of spelling rules (US and British/International ones), and a set of "meta-rules" (topics specifics to a given country, generally acceptable usages, first major contributor, etc) as to which to use. Aren't you proposing to change the latter set of (meta-)rules? If you plan on expanding the scope to include things, that there's a unitary rule for at the moment, you should say so explicitly. (I suppose these are all strictly speaking "guidelines", if none of the MoS is policy as such.) Alai 00:01, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Punctuation and quoting style is just that: style. There are common conventions that are often followed in the US or UK, but they're not universal, and using a different convention isn't an error. I don't feel strongly about it, but it seems to me that the UK convention is more explicit, requires fewer exceptions for special cases, and is closer to how programmers and computer people often write, anyway. —Michael Z. 2005-03-14 00:44 Z

Ugh, the US punctuation rules are rules, not mild suggestions that people feel free to violate. If you write a paper for school or write a book, like, say, an encyclopedia, and you do it any other way, it's wrong. It is an error. The fact that computer programmers are notoriously bad at grammar and spelling should not be used as an indication that an encyclopedia should start following their style. If that were the case we should just give up and require everyone to make plurals out of everything by adding an apostrophe and an s and go with L33tspeak spellings. The "computer people" can make contributions all they want, but they ought to let the people who understand spelling and grammar to clean up after them instead of arguing with them. DreamGuy 01:40, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Far be it for the likes of us to argue with you and your dreadfully impressive understanding. It's just too bad that some incompetent rule-breakers like George Orwell, George Bernard Shaw, and Gertrude Stein didn't have you to clean up after them, too. —Michael Z. 2005-03-14 06:27 Z

Non-contemporary UK authors using non-contemporary British rules wouldn't be breaking their rules, so that argument makes no sense. I'm sorry, you aren't even trying to support your side with logical reasons, you are just assuming British rules are better than the US ones in general and being rude about it on top of it. That's not support for your side, that's evidence that your opinion is based solely on bias. DreamGuy 06:49, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Those are examples of famous British and American authors who broke a lot of their their contemporaries' "rules" of punctuation, including ones that are still conventional. I'm not assuming any rules are better than others; I'm saying your assertion that they must be followed slavishly is wrong, and I'm sure most writers would disagree with you.

Sorry for my tone, but I thought your highbrowed implication that computer programmers and technical writers were illiterate was rude. In many contexts there are good stylistic and practical reasons to diverge from convention. To do so is not automatically an error. For example, from Quotation mark:

In some subject areas (such as software documentation and chemistry), it is conventional to include only what is part of the quoted phrase within the quotes, for clarity:

Enter the URL as “www.wikipedia.org”, the name as “Wikipedia”, and click "OK".

Publishers adopt style guides that are appropriate to their publications. It makes sense for Wikipedia to do so, and there's nothing wrong with using essentially British punctuation conventions when they are easy for volunteer editors to apply and will avoid confusion in thousands of technical articles. —Michael Z. 2005-03-17 19:37 Z

Re "British-style punctuation". Up until 28 December of last year, the MoS described its guideline as "splitting the difference" between UK and US usages: punctuation inside or outside according to sense (per British rules), but preferring "double" quotation marks to 'single' ones (per American practice). Sounds like the original framers were trying to strike a compromise between the two, and it's a shame that language was lost from the Manual. –Hajor 04:15, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The WP-mandated serial comma is also something of an Americanism, if we're keeping score. (Though also popular with Lynne Truss, Oxfordians, and other pedants. Well, some pedants, as I don't personally care for it...) Alai 05:51, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Two points: first, the current MoS says that spelling and "usage" of a country should be used in articles "specific to" that country. That ought to include punctuation. The MoS is just a bit inconsistent here. Second, the MoS is a guideline, not policy, so no one should be changing people's commas or quotation marks. Even though when I last looked the MoS advocated the use of the serial comma, I never add serial commas to British-related articles (although the serial comma is used in the UK, there are lots of British writers who don't like them). It's best to use commonsense and be sensitive to the views of the editors who've spent most time on the page, as well as to the topic. SlimVirgin 06:58, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think "usage" covers punctuation. It may not be terribly consistent per se, but it says what it says, and says it fairly clearly. Your interpretation of "not policy" seems to be in essence to ignore it entirely. Aren't the guidelines guidance for among other things, copy-editting? If it's not a good idea to edit text to make it conform better (well, more, at least) to the MoS, why have it at all? Bin the whole thing and just have "holding the ring" policies for the on-going edit-warring between US and non-US copy? (I suppose that the latter is probably a practical necessity anyway, on the evidence.) Sensitivity to both of those things is certainly a good idea, but some clarity about what's an ultimately desirable goal would be very useful. Alai 07:41, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Further to the comment above by Hajor, I agree that the "splitting the difference" explanation should be retained. Was it removed on substantive grounds, or simply to make the passage shorter? JamesMLane 09:18, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure why it was removed. Statement of intent: I plan to put it back shortly, unless I'm loudly shouted at and convinced otherwise in this thread. –Hajor 14:57, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Alai, I do follow the MoS. It says: "Writers are not required to follow all or any of these rules ..." SlimVirgin 09:23, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but it does not say: "don't copy-edit to conform to this style", as you suggest. Nor does it say "vigorously revert such edits if they displease you", which seems to be a practice that gets justified by this same "it's not policy" argument. (On occasion justifying this in terms of the "first major contributor" or the "national variety of English" rules... to be found in the very same non-policy document.) Alai 09:28, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's right. It's not policy. People shouldn't be going around changing commas from one style to another. It leads to revert wars over trivia. We shouldn't be pedants and I assume you're not arguing in favor of pedantry. All that has happened because of the pedantry of a very small number is that the MoS has fallen into disrepute. Someone lost an adminship nomination recently in part because of his habit of going around changing articles to conform with the MoS, which he was doing on a large scale and insensitively. Sensitivity and commonsense are the keys here. SlimVirgin 09:42, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Over the past twenty-odd years I've taught countless students from around the world, including hundreds of visiting U.S. students from different universities. The only constant with regard to punctuation and style is theat there's no constant. Some of the more pugnacious ones insist that they're using 'U.S. punctuation' because that's what they were taught at school, but they're at odds with others, equally pugnacious, who were taught differently at different schools. For example, I've recently had a rash of U.S. students putting footnote numbers inside quotation marks — because that's what they were told to do at High School; some of them would be prepare to argue the case (on 'U.S.–U.K.' grounds), but their U.S. fellow-students are able to point out that it's not in fact a matter of geography or culture, but some ill-educated High-School teachers. (I might add that I don't have that problem with British students, because they're not taught anything at school any more.)

The point is that there are three issues regarding punctuation: tradition/rules, matching to speech patterns, and logic. Some variations are irrelevant to the last two, in which case they rarely matter at all. Because speech patterns (especially the places where people pause in sentences) vary widely, there's little point arguing about that either. Logic's a different matter. For example, putting the footnote number inside quotation marks is daft, because the number isn't part of the quotation. The same goes for other punctuation marks: if the original text didn't end with a full stop, then it can be misleading to put one inside the quotation marks. The serial comma is the same; some people seem to have an emotional response to it (which I don't understand), but its omission can and often does lead to momentary puzzlement or worse, whereas creating examples where its inclusion causes problems is an exercise in surrealism. Why not forget this silly (and mostly bogus) business about U.S. versus U.K. punctuation, and concentrate on clear and unambiguous communication? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:58, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hear, hear!

Clarity is this Manual's purpose, not nationalistic chest-beating.

James F. (talk) 11:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seconded. SlimVirgin 12:04, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

OMG ME TOO!!! Seriously, I agree. The way the MOS deals with punctuation and quotes just makes sense. --SPUI (talk) 12:29, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And I agree also. Maurreen 02:22, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The manual recommends US style headers Start the first word and any proper nouns in headings with a capital letter, but leave the rest of the heading lower case. Personally I have no problem with this because it is within the range of what is acceptable in Commonwealth/International English and although it is not a universal rule in C/I. E., it helps to give Wikipedia a more standard look. I would hope that A.E. practitioners can accept that the looser C/I English punctuation if they come across it in an article. Spelling is another matter because spelling color and colour does not really lend its self to a literate compromise. Angels dancing on a pinheads come to mind over this discussion. Philip Baird Shearer 13:35, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But in what sense is this U.S. style for headings? Any publishing house or journal has a house style, and the variety of such styles is dizzying. I'd be very surprised if the Wikipedia style of headings weren't at least as common in the U.K. as in the U.S. (I've done a quick and unscientific bit of research, and in fact the Wikipedia style proved to be by far the most common in the U.K.-published books at which I looked, including those from C.U.P., Routledge, Blackwell, and Pan; only O.U.P. used all initial capitals, though that style was used by many U.S.-published books, including those from Open Court, Duke U.P., Prentice-Hall, and Paragon House.) Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:01, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Quotation marks

This section is all messed up, IMO.

here called the "logical" style and the "aesthetic" style

Why don't you just come out and declare the one you don't like "illogical"?

The aesthetic style, which is only really now used in North America, was developed as early typesetters thought it was more aesthetic to present punctuation that way.

Modern typesetters say that too. Commas and periods go inside or else you normally get a horrible gap on the bottom of the line, unless you are going to a press that adjusts those things. Website text soes not adjust those things.

In the aesthetic style, the punctuation goes within the quotation marks

Not always true. In fact, the example you give earlier for "logical" style (putting the exclamation mark inside of the quotation mark only if it relates to the item inside the quotes) is the standard for North America too for things like exclamation marks and, especially, question marks.

This section needs to be updated to be less POVvy and more accurate. DreamGuy 01:02, Mar 18, 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree here. I had to read the section three times to figure out what the difference was. The etymology of the terms is irrelevant (and their global dispersion is secondary); focus on describing what the two styles are. —Wahoofive | Talk 06:01, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quotation marks, splitting the difference

My understanding is that no one objected when Hajor stated an intention to reinsert into the style guide the material on splitting the difference for style on quotation marks. My understanding is also that there was no discussion to remove that material, either originally or recently.

Hajor's reinsertion was reverted. I am going to restore it. If anyone disagrees, I ask that you discuss it here and get consensus first. Maurreen 04:43, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with it, and with the "compromise style" it rationalises. Indeed, one might make a similar comment about the entire punctuation issue. However right at the moment, re-introducing it might be seen as advocacy against Jguk's "vive la difference" proposal, so I'd personally be cautious about doing so unless there was some evidence of a consensus to do so. Alai 23:54, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the current phrasing. As a foreigner I read "we split the difference between American and British usage" and had no clue what it meant. I had to read the discussion to understand. First, the fact: "Wikipedia uses the American quotation symbol (") and the British punctuation rules." Second, the rationale: "These are the best choices for reasons of symbol visibility and sentence logic." So finally the "split the difference" comment is not the fact, not the rationale, just a happy consequence. If you want it, then it should come third after the fact and rationale which are more important.--67.124.149.4 21:51, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just found out about the reinsertion of that crazy "splitting the difference" rule because I first read the Manual of Style in February and had no idea it had changed until right now (because a BE contributor reverted changes I had made to the Supreme Court of the United States) page to bring it into proper AE style. Just for the record, I preferred the previous rule (which I understood as where contributors simply keyed in their additions in their native dialect and generally refrained from editing each other's dialect peculiarities). The current compromise rule is simply insane, because as some people have pointed out in the archived talk pages, the result looks equally ridiculous to English writers everywhere. --Coolcaesar 00:10, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As I understand it, the actual rule was at no point deleted, at no point reinserted. What I was keen to see reinstated was the description of that rule as "splitting the difference" (which was deleted). Why? Basically, to head off further threads of the The manual recommends British-style punctuation on US topics??!?! kind. –Hajor 01:53, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This manual of style requires some British English usage on pages which are dominated by American English, and some American English usage on pages which are dominated by British English. This is but one example of this. This does give a ridiculous result, as Coolcaesar notes - and the Manual regularly gets ignored (for obvious reasons) by many WPians.

Unfortunately all attempts to permit articles to be fully consistent with one standard form of English have met with rebuffs by those unwilling to give up their pet likes. It's a shame, and it means this Manual does not reflect WP practice - but until those users decide to stop dictate their individual preferred styles to others, it's not going to change, jguk 07:22, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quotation Mark Rule - A Hopeless Muddle?

I'm of the opinion that the Wikirule on quotation marks is a hopeless muddle. Does anyone else share this opinion? In sum, it starts out by saying "we'll generally follow the American rule, but then we'll really follow something more of the English rule but with some American bits thrown in." So the rule is no rule. I can understand either: 1) entirely following the British rule or 2) entirely following the American rule. But this messy hybrid means it's not right to anyone. I've read quite a few articles here on Wiki that are not following any rule -- Brit, Amer, or Wiki -- and it's just a muddle. Some parts are following one, and then other parts follow the other, while still others follow nothing or are a jumble of everything. What think ye others? David Hoag 03:43, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think our style on quotation marks is OK. Any muddling in articles is not necessarily because of the style guide. Maurreen 03:58, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Maureen, what are your thoughts about making usage consistent within a single article itself, e.g. either "all English" or "all American"? I see this done somewhat in articles with the consistency of spelling, e.g. "color" and "colour" are not used within the same article. David Hoag 04:32, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think consistency within an article is both more important and more achievable than consistency throughout the entirety of Wikipedia. I believe the debate about UK versus American spellings reached the same conclusion. —HorsePunchKid→龜 04:46, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Making text more consistent within an article is usually a good idea and supported by the style guide. But just in case you haven't run into this yet, some people are very sensitive, for lack of better words, about their national version of English ... or maybe just whatever they are used to, even in the same country. Maurreen 04:54, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

It's more the fact that many seem to have had "correct" English drummed into them by their teachers, and don't realise that English really has many, many different forms and usages throughout the world, or even that English is a dynamic changing language. We are the victims of dogmatic and misguided teachers:( jguk 07:21, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the current guideline's fine. I can see your concern, but in my opinion this kind of middle point will work fine for an encyclopedia that is neither British nor American.

Though having said that, the style on the manual now is (for the msot part) the one I always use in all my writing (before I came to Wikipedia). Neonumbers 11:42, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Quotation marks and punctuation

Concerning the following from this style guide:

When punctuating quoted passages include the mark of punctuation inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the mark of punctuation is part of the quotation. This is the style used in Australia, New Zealand, and Britain, for example. (A fuller treatment of the recommendations given here can be found in Fowler's Modern English Usage and other style guides for these countries, some of which vary in fine details.) "Stop!", for example, has the punctuation inside the quotation marks because the word "stop" is said with emphasis. When using "scare quotes", however, the comma goes outside.

Other examples:

Arthur said the situation was "deplorable". (The full stop (period) is not part of the quotation.)

Arthur said, "The situation is deplorable." (The full sentence is quoted; the period is part of the quotation.)

Arthur said that the situation "was the most deplorable he had seen in years." (Although the full sentence is not quoted, the sense of finality conveyed by the period is part of the quotation.)

Please note that the above rules reflect British conventions and are generally not followed by American publishers. For example, the Associated Press Stylebook has the following under its guidelines about "quotation marks":

PLACEMENT WITH OTHER PUNCTUATION: Follow these long-established printers' rules:

The period and the comma always within the quotation marks.

The dash, the semicolon, the question mark and the exclamation point go within the quotation marks when they apply to the quoted matter only. They go outside when they apply to the whole sentence.

Using commas and periods with Quotations, Song Titles, Article Titles, including in a Series

I have recently noticed a British contributor going on a punctuation crusade through articles, including some I have edited and researched, to change all commas or periods placed inside quotation marks to be outside the quotation marks. He cites "logical quotation" and points to our Manual of Style: Quotation as though that is an authority on the subject of punctuating a sentence listing several song titles, as in the sentence he changed. (I wish he had been as interested in content research, but some people mostly care about going in to articles just to change the locations of commas. At least his fixation on this topic has brought it to my attention so I can ask here about it.)

Please explain how "logical quoting" relates to a list of song titles that are punctuated with quotation marks. I understand a quotation to be something different from a list of song titles that use quotation marks for punctuation. Listing four song titles in a sentence and placing the commas outside the quotation marks punctuating the song titles makes the resulting changed text appear to my eyes like some sort of programming language, rather than English. My reaction may be caused by my eyes becoming used to American editing style manuals from my work outside Wikipedia for the past 20 years. Trying to edit differently here than I do elsewhere, as though Wikipedia began as a British publication (which it did not), is going to become confusing for me.

I'm also trying to understand if Wikipedia style has settled without dispute on using British logical quoting for quotations, when that happened, and why British style should dominate Wikipedia. (I had visited the style manual many times before and did not notice this before.) No American style guide that I know of used by professional editors adopts the placing of commas and periods outside quotation marks. Here is the only archive I've found so far of Wikipedia discussions on the subject, merely noting a small handful of contributor attitudes on the subject: Quotes talk archive. I didn't find that discussion to have clearly come to a conclusion.

I want to get everything straight about what's correct form so that I can be consistent, correct any errors I have made myself, and so that I won't, worse yet, accidentally mis-edit someone else's work in the future. Until now, I had been adhering to styles I thought Wikipedia's style guide was based on (particularly for References citation style), such as Chicago Manual of Style, APA, and AP. I had thought at one point in the past some part of the Wikipedia style guide had said to use American style on American topics and British style on British topics, but I now doubt that memory was true (or it might have been in a citation style discussion, but I don't remember). Once I'm clear on how to handle this in the future, I will consistently apply whatever is the approved style to use, assuming it doesn't keep changing. --Emerman 18:14, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

The logical quoting style is preferred because it preserves exactly what is quoted; there is no ambiguity as to whether the punctuation is as in the original. This does tend to be pretty consistantly followed, even in AE style articles by editors from the U.S., as I am. --Jonathunder 18:43, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

No, it is not "preferred" in the U.S. On the contrary, I just listed for you a number of style manuals commonly followed, including in arts and entertainment fields if that is what you mean by "AE style," that don't put commas outside the quotation marks, so it couldn't be "consistently" followed in the United States. As for arts and entertainment, a simple look at any and all articles in All Music Guide (allmusic.com — random example: [2]) and Rolling Stone magazine (rollingstone.com — random example of song titles with commas/periods inside quote marks: [3] and [4]) reveals they follow Associated Press style, not "logical quotation" style for song titles in a series or for quotations, for that matter. Please provide specific and precise examples of other U.S. publications that place commas and periods inside quotation marks, particularly with song titles as in the case of the UK person who erroneously adjusted an article I worked on, if you are going to make claims of that nature in the future without citing your sources.

I continue to hope someone will explain the relationship of "logical quoting" style to a series of song titles separated by commas and using quotation marks, which is what led me to write this question, rather than have this part of the question be confused with punctuation of a quoted passage. A series of song titles listed in a sentence is not a "quotation." (Was the immediately preceding sentence supposed to end with the period outside the quotation marks in "logical quotation" style, by the way? Same with the comma I put with the phrase "AE style" in the above paragraph? Changing either to have the punctuation outside the quote mark would be awkward looking.) Why did a person changing the commas in a Wikipedia article I'd written separating song titles with commas refer to his edit as "logical quoting"? There is nothing being "quoted" in the case of a series of song titles punctuated with quotation marks. Also, as to your quotation logic comment, I have never had any ambiguity about when to use the comma or period inside a quotation; it is simply not an issue. The logical quoting style tries to make it an issue, but it is not one necessary to consider if you simply always put the period or comma inside the quotation. Whether the punctuation was in the original or not is irrelevant. --Emerman 19:45, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

My comment above is in the context of Wikipedia, where logical quoting does tend to be the general practice and has been for a long time, even for Wikipedia articles in AE style. I think this reflects the influence of computer culture, where, due to the importance of giving a string of text literally, this has become more common, even in the U.S. --Jonathunder 20:15, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Could you please clarify if you mean "arts and entertainment" by your use of the term "AE"? Yes, I did mention the style looked like a programming language rather than English, re: your comment about computer culture. I have not been using the logical quote style you mention as being widespread in Wikipedia in my editing. I notice it in some articles but didn't think it was widespread in Wikipedia. I think it looks horrible. It makes perfect sense in computer text strings though. My work background includes both technical editing and journalism, by the way, so I'm familiar with computer and internet-oriented styles too. The journals and magazines I read online are not using the style someone has convinced people is fine for Wikipedia. I don't understand how this happened; you seem to indicate it's a techie trend, perhaps among bloggers, but it's not the trend in online magazines. --Emerman 21:01, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I think Jonathunder's explanation is probably more-or-less correct. Most Britishisms make me cringe and it takes a good deal of willpower not to correct them, but for whatever reason "logical quoting" seems perfectly natural and correct to me, and that sentiment seems to be fairly widespread on Wikipedia. This is in fact one of the oldest parts of the MoS and it has rarely been questioned. For your particular example, anything that appears in quote marks is ipso facto a quotation, so the rule applies to them. The following has standard Wikipedia punctuation for a sentence containing a list of song titles:

"Some of Burt Bacharach's most famous songs are "The Look Of Love", "(They Long To Be) Close To You", "Raindrops Keep Fallin' On My Head", and "I Say A Little Prayer"."

--Nohat 20:39, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I appreciate your reply. Yet I find that example looks horrid. The fact someone got their opinion to scoot past everyone, not considering other style guides, doesn't mean it ought to necessarily stay that way, hence this talk page. You're indicating it's an old style here, but a year ago, I did not think that was in the style guide or else I just missed it. Now I've got a year of editing one way behind me that I have to go back and change in edits under this name and my IPs, if I'm to assume all my edits using common American style book style were wrong. --Emerman 21:01, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I went to a British arts and entertainment publication, NME, to see their way of doing this, although "AE" isn't the issue here — I come from a tech writer background, not just an AE background and am interested in editing other topics than music sometimes. NME appears to use this style you mention (example: third sentence of [5] and third to last sentence of [6], although they use single quote marks and the standard is double quote marks for song titles — I wonder why they used single ones?). If "logical quotation" style is definitively what I'm always supposed to do, and I'm always supposed to put commas and periods outside song titles, then I'll try to go back and correct my past mistakes in the future. Will use double quotation marks for signifying a song title or article title unless I learn even that old punctuation rule has changed. --Emerman 21:35, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it's not that someone scooted their opinion past anyone— it's just that probably the majority of people on Wikipedia so far who care about the issue agree with the style. This is the first time I've seen it questioned. I don't mean to deflate your balloon too much and I'm sorry you think this style looks "horrid", but I think this style is pretty universally well-liked on Wikipedia, even by anti-consistency chaos hawks such as myself.

However, given that, you have no obligation to go back and fix your previous edits. You are of course welcomed and encouraged to, but you should definitely not feel like you have to. You should contribute in whatever way brings you the most pleasure. If "fixing" punctuation to a format that you don't personally like that much is something that doesn't interest you, you should definitely work on something else instead. Someone else will fix it. On the other hand, if the thought that there is content you contributed that violates the MoS makes your stomach churn and you won't be able to sleep until it's fixed, then I guess you'll have to fix it. In that case, however, you have no one to blame the unpleasantness on other than yourself for being an anally-retentive perfectionist. :-) You can, however, take solace in the fact that much of the rest of us are the same.

One could research in the history how long it's been in the Manual of Style, but I know for certain it's been there as long as I've been editing Wikipedia articles (mid-2003) because it was one of the first things I looked up. You must have overlooked it before. --Nohat 21:44, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

It was there for a long time, then it disappeared around New Year's (between 2004 and 2005) and then was reinserted in March 2005. The problem is that a lot of contributors (myself included) who started editing Wikipedia during the winter of 2004 were not aware of that crazy rule since it was not in the MoS during that period. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive12 for more information about the debate that resulted. Furthermore, I continue to disagree with the rule in its current state as an insane compromise that satisfies no one. I personally use American English punctuation when editing pages that are purely or almost completely about American subjects (especially American law, where proper punctuation is extremely important). Of course, as a matter of basic courtesy, when editing pages about topics that are not specific to the United States, I do preserve the British usage when I come across it.

Furthermore, I should point out that if you review the English language article, you will notice that American English speakers currently constitute a supermajority (two-thirds) of all native English speakers. --Coolcaesar 01:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The "logical quote style" means that punctation goes inside the quotation marks if and only if it is part of the content being quoted. In the case of a song title, if a comma is part of a song title, it goes inside the quote marks, otherwise it does not. I have long (for years before the creation of wikipedia) used this style exclusively in my writing, adn i live and have always lived in the US. Therfore would write a list of song titles as (for example "Raindrops keep Falling on my Head", "Yesterday", "When I'm in Town, I call on You", "Reaching Out...", and "Only You". This makes it clear which punctuation is and which is not part of the title. I understand this to be the agreed and most commonly used style on wikipedia. It would have been my choice had I been polled on the issue. --DES ^(talk) 02:42, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Since you mention American law, Coolcaesar--can you cite any bill-drafting style guide, for the U.S. Congress or any state legislature, which does not follow the "logical" formatting? The bills I've seen, and a couple of bill-drafting guides I've seen, are pretty much like the Wikipedia rules. Gene Nygaard 08:23, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

California, for example. If you look up California Civil Code Section 1749.60 [7], or any other code section that happens to put quote marks around something (like Financial Code section 23000), you will notice that the California Legislature consistently puts periods and commas inside quotation marks. As for judge-made law, both the California Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court continue to adhere to the American convention of placing periods and commas inside quotation marks. I just pulled slip opinions from both courts' Web sites to be absolutely sure (Powerine Oil Co. v. Superior Court, decided 8/29/05 by Cal., and IBP, Inc. v. Alvarez., decided 11/8/05 by U.S.). Also, the American style is the style implicitly prescribed by the Bluebook, as indicated by the examples for Rules 5.1 and 5.2. --Coolcaesar 03:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

You are missing the point completely. I'm not talking about the laws; I'm talking about bills. That's where they say we're going to amend the existing law which says "such and such", and replace that wording with something else saying "this and that". In those bills, punctuation is inside the quotation marks if the punction is contained in the original or replacement language; it is outside the quotation marks if it is not. No strange, illogical rules always placing periods and the like inside quotation marks. Gene Nygaard 05:59, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

If you had bothered to look at the California Legislative Info site [8], you would realize that California bills never indicate what text is being removed by an amendment to an existing code section. They simply state something like "Section 1654 of the Civil Code is amended to read:" and then the new section starts right away on the next line, without any quotation marks preceding or following it. There is no need to indicate the difference between the old and new sections because any lawyer who cares about a bill can look up the current version on LexisNexis or in the law library, and compare it to the new version proposed by the bill.

When West or LexisNexis modifies their annotated versions of the California Codes (West's California Codes Annotated or Deering's Annotated California Codes) after the Governor signs the bill, they will add in a note saying that the 2005 amendment deleted or added specific phrases (and these notations are always punctuated in American style).

Even where bills themselves are amended during the committee process, quotation marks are not used. Rather, the deleted text is indicated with strikethroughs and the inserted text is indicated in italics. This has always been the tradition in the printed versions published by the Legislature, and has been continued on the Legislature's Web site.

In case you're wondering, I did just look up Thomas and the United States Code, and I am now aware that Congress does use logical punctuation in both its bills and the U.S.C. But that's simply one branch of the federal government. Both the judiciary and the executive continue to use traditional American punctuation, respectively, in their opinions and in the Code of Federal Regulations. The Constitution, of course, also uses American punctuation as well — I am referring to the President's oath in Article II.

Finally, I fail to see what the point of your point is, because very few bills are so notable that they need to be parsed phrase by phrase on Wikipedia (especially before they are signed into law).--Coolcaesar 20:17, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that the problem on quote marks is that the technicalities are not understood, and not appreciated as important by the average person (indeed, the fact that there are two systems which can be interpreted as ok by readers suggests that there is not a big issue here). I think that in the history of this, there are two different systems being considered, reported speech and quotations and historically they have different rules, but (like the quotation mark article itself, this subtlety is lost- its just stuff in quotes for the average reader. In my more pedantic moments I'd like to see an authoritative statement on the acedemic view of correct usage, in all dialects, I think there is too much personal experience being thrown into the pot. Anyway, trying to fix a style based on correct usage when that usage is not understood seems a lost cause. Perhaps the pragmatic approach is to state that it is a Wiki style and not based on correct usage due to the differences in usage. --Spenny 11:38, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

There is some truth to that, but i also think you will find that there is no authoritative, academicaly approved style for all dialects of english, any more than there is a fully authoritative single spelling of "color/colour". --DES ^(talk) 18:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

(smile) I think you should be shot at dawn for suggesting that there is not a correct spelling of colour, just because the upstarts on the other side of the pond choose to spell it differently! Seriously, it is a different case, there are clear, correct spellings, they just differ according to dialect. Punctuation is a different problem, in that its correct usage is not well understood, or perhaps even well defined. In Britain, there has been a popular book, Eats Shoots and Leaves, which attempts to deal with the more glaring issues, though I am not sure it managed to weave its way through the detail of punctuating quotes or the spoken word. So as far as Wiki goes, we know we will be offending some readers with wrong spelling, it is less clear whether our punctuation will cause the same offence. --Spenny 17:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

People like to think things are much more straightforward in English than they have any right to expect from such a Frankenstein language, lol. And then, when they do, they often inevitably tend to think that whatever they were taught in school is the objective truth and wonder why people would even discuss it.

The amount of times I've had to pull up the reasons why Americans pronounce/spell/punctuate blank in this way to show other people; explain that there is an actual, valid reason it happens and that sometimes—sometimes—it even makes more logical sense, when compared with some of the other general rules in English or how a borrowed word sounds in its original language, than how it's done in almighty BrE, lol. ;)

I was taught punctuation inside quotations throughout school. English was my favorite subject and best subject. If I'm honest, I really don't see compelling evidence here that "punctuation outside" is more logical to any real degree. AmE is the variety of English I learned for over 12 years in school and I believe it's just as valid, given that American English has, since the 20th century, become "the most influential form of English worldwide."

I have not noticed a mass shift to BrE quote punctuation in the US; news outlets here still overwhelmingly use AmE quote punctuation, I still almost always see it in any printed text, in typed conversation, etc. Nor have I noticed a mass shift to BrE quote punctuation on the parts of WP I frequent.

If I'm on a UK based article, it will almost definitely be in BrE format, but if I'm on an American article, it's almost always in AmE.

The only BrE punctuation I have actually begun to see used more widely on WP is the adding of an additional S onto the end of possessive proper nouns ending in S (i.e. Sanders's, whereas it'd be Sanders' with standard AmE).

In my opinion, it should just be considered a style choice, not a rule, on a platform where you have many people working together from different parts of the world who have conflicting rules for a language.

It makes sense to me that it should be treated essentially like date configuration is from article to article; if you're on an American origin article, use the AmE rules. If on a UK origin ones, use BrE rules. Nobody had to decide which was objectively more logical.

That's how I've always operated. I've even edited articles based in England to comply with BrE quotation, lol. And I actually genuinely dislike the way it looks, but it still just makes sense to me that UK articles be BrE rules and American articles AmE rules.

Btw, I hope none of this came off in the wrong way. I'm not trying to like mock anyone or single someone out or anything like that. Just my own experiences and thoughts on it.

✎ Comtesse d'Autodidactica ^{📋} 09:14, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Let me see if I have got this straight. Some people are suggesting that instead of writing

Some of Burt Bacharach's most famous songs are "The Look Of Love", "(They Long To Be) Close To You", "Raindrops Keep Fallin' On My Head", and "I Say A Little Prayer".

we should write

Some of Burt Bacharach's most famous songs are "The Look Of Love," "(They Long To Be) Close To You," "Raindrops Keep Fallin' On My Head," and "I Say A Little Prayer."

Is this really what is being said? The second formulation is absurd. Not only is it logically wrong (because the commas are not part of the song title), it looks completely wrong too, with the quotes separated only by spaces. Possibly I have got confused about what is being said. Matt 11:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

No, Matt, that's about the size of it and I'll agree with you it does look completely wrong too ... to me ... but I'm biased. The thing is that one can't help but be biased. Emerman says this style is "awkward looking" and that it "looks horrible" but admits that his "reaction may be caused by [his] eyes becoming used to American editing style manuals ..." (P.S. it should be "... eyes' becoming ...").

Well, Emerman, the American style looks awkward and horrible to me so we're even. Yes, a lot of it just depends on what you're used to so raising the point of how it looks isn't going to get either side very far.

Let's therefore examine the merits of the two systems in terms of logic. The American system defies all logic ... and for what? Just to look nicer ... and in my eyes it fails at that but, as I say, this is only a matter of taste. What people are calling the British system makes perfect logical sense and is unambiguous.

Note that I write "What people are calling the British system": its use is not restricted to British English but is pretty much universal (even outside of English). And why should it be universal? Well ain't that obvious? Nobody but the Americans had that daft idea of mucking things up.

Americans would do well, in my opinion, to adopt this logical system of quotation. Its looks can't take that much getting used to. However, I guess that would be hoping for too much. At least here at Wikipedia logic prevails in this respect. Long let it.

Emerman, I understand your desire to have things changed to the style to which you are accustomed but judging from the responses here I don't think this desire is about to be fulfilled. Jimp 9Nov05

<< it should be "... eyes' becoming ..." >> You mean genitive? Wow, I guess you never stop learning... PizzaMargherita 07:35, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I was just being pedantic since we're in a pedantic mood. Another point: I'm Australian but I don't ever recall learning this logical punctuation style at school. In fact I don't think I'd ever been aware of the issue until I read about it at Wikipedia. I've always used logical punctuation simply because it's logical. Never really gave the issue any thought. Now, though, I notice the American style and, as I say, it grates on me like I guess the logical style grates on Emerman.

Emerman, you say you continue to use American style in artilces about US law where "proper punctuation is extremely important." The logical style is not improper. Also it's an article about law, it's not a legal document. That asside wouldn't you think that in articles about law or any topic for that matter unambiguous punctuation would be best? How do law makers in the US get around this ambiguity I wonder. Jimp 11Nov05

You got confused. Emerman didn't raise that point, I did. To respond to Jimp's point: The issue of punctuation is a non-issue for American judges or legislators, because in nearly all cases it's not that important to show in the final text where a certain period or comma came from. There are a few reported contract cases where parties have fought over the meaning of the placement of punctuation, but if I recall correctly, the solution in those cases was to simply quote the entire relevant portion of the contract verbatim as a blockquote (in which case quotation marks are not used because the indentation and context are sufficient to show that the text is a quote from somewhere else). --Coolcaesar 03:11, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Punctuating quoted passages: why British usage exclusively?

When punctuating quoted passages, include the mark of punctuation inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the mark of punctuation is part of the quotation. This is the style used in Australia, New Zealand, and Britain, for example.

I don't get it. With respect to U. S. versus British usage, everywhere else, we say that usage should follows either the nationality of the subject, or whichever convention was established when the article was started.

Why should we prescribe British punctuation style for an article that otherwise follows U. S. usage? Dpbsmith (talk) 19:50, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

...but obviously that maybe must roughly depend usually on the exact approximate order of the rules. PizzaMargherita 21:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

It's somewhat misleading to call it "British punctuation" as it's used by everyone but the Americans. There are good reasons to favour what is better referred to as "international punctuation". Firstly, it's logical: punctuation marks go where they belong. Secondly, it's unambiguous: with the American style you might not be able to determine whether the punctuation was part of the quote or not. A third reason specific to Wikipedia is that this topic has been done to death and the general consensus it to stick with logical punctuation. Jimp 00:21, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The British system is more logical, but aesthetically gross. Quotes look better outside commas and periods, which I guess is why North Americans put them there. Felicity4711 03:22, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

It's gross if you are not used to it. Also I thought that (most) Americans put punctuation inside quotes, for example a question mark even if it's not part of the quotation, but it's part of an interrogative sentence that ends with a quotation. Anyway, I've changed to a more neutral wording, which is widely accepted, as you can see in the archives. I've also neatened up a bit, removing a poor example and removing a reference that is way too much for the scope of the MoS. Hopefully this is the last time we have to discuss this. PizzaMargherita 07:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

In AmE commas and periods precede closing quotation marks. Some punctuation examples:

• Did John really say "I quit"?
• Mary saw the flames and shouted, "Fire!"
• Susan sang the song "Tommorow." —Wayward ^Talk 07:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and to answer the original question, because we reached a consensus that "logical" quotations are better. Check the archives. PizzaMargherita 07:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

As PizzaMargherita indicates grossness is in the eye of the beholder. It all depends on what you're used to. To me the US style looks ugly. The arguement from æsthetics sufferes from the fact that we've all got different taste. Jimp 07:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

An aside—is "arguement" misspelt? Or is "argument" a US spelling? Just curious. --TreyHarris 03:33, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Chambers Dictionary, 9th ed., argument. So, apparently, a misspelling. —Wayward ^Talk 03:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Getting in here a little late. Quoted passages should have the same punctuation as in the original passage, with quotes outside everything, to indicate what exactly is being quoted. Is this not clear? User talk:Wayward says punctuation precedes quotes, but in his first example it doesn't -- though it's a correct example of how U.S. typography is the same as British.

So:

"Did he really say that?" is the line Harry utters as Barbara enters the scene in "A Very Funny Play" by A. Playwright. (Because there's a question mark in the play's text.)

Is it true that Einstein said "God does not play dice with the universe"?

(Because the quote certainly didn't contain a question mark; why put it inside the quote? Some might include a period too.)

Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty or give me death!" when he faced execution for treason.

(His declaration could have ended with a period, which would be omitted in a fragmentary quote--but when the sentence is hanging, the exclamation point seems apt.)

This would be correct anywhere, I thought. Some U.S. publishing conventions seem incorrect to UK readers. But our practice of putting punctuation inside quotation marks in dialog is not the same as placing punctuation in quoted printed matter. The convention is that quotes go outside everything from the source text. Fragmented conversational quotes are the only time one punctuation mark, the comma, goes before the closing quote mark. Very few Wikipedia articles are going to contain quoted speech that was never printed, I would think.

Quoted text rarely ends in a comma, or no punctuation (a line of poetry, perhaps), so that weird Americanism should come up not at all.

Also, "just adopt the U.K. convention, world, it's more logical" is the one tiresome thing about the style guide. There's 200 million more potential readers that are used to U.S. conventions (or, punnily, "US" conventions). Besides, conventions are arbitary; the most common denominator makes as much sense as anything. It's bullyish, but just as true as "our way is really rather better!" (or, if you prefer, "really rather better"! -- tell me that looks more logical.)

(Really no offense intended. Just can't resist some punctuation banter is all. DavidH 05:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC))

Sorry for the late response. As I said in my reply above, commas and periods precede closing quotation marks in American-style punctuation. Other marks adhere to British style.

Chicago Manual of Style, 15th ed., 6.8: Periods and commas. Periods and commas precede closing quotation marks, whether double or single. This is a traditional style, in use well before the first edition of this manual (1906). As nicely expressed in William Strunk Jr. and E. B. White's Elements of Style, "Typographical usage dictates that the comma be inside the [quotation] marks, though logically it often seems not to belong there." The same goes for the period. (An apostrophe at the end of a word should never be confused with a closing single quotation mark; punctuation always follows the apostrophe.) In the kind of textual studies where retaining the original placement of a comma in relation to closing quotation marks is essential to the author's argument and scholarly integrity, the alternative system described in 6.10 could be used, or rephrasing might avoid the problem.

Ibid., 6.9: Colons, semicolons, question marks, and exclamation points. Unlike periods and commas, these all follow closing quotation marks unless a question mark or an exclamation point belongs within the quoted matter. (This rule applies the logic absent in 6.8.)

Ibid., 6.10: Alternative system. According to what is sometimes called the British style (set forth in The Oxford Guide to Style [the successor to Hart's Rules]), a style also followed in other English-speaking countries, only those punctuation points that appeared in the original material should be included within the quotation marks; all others follow the closing quotation marks. This system, which requires extreme authorial precision and occasional decisions by the editor or typesetter, works best with single quotation marks.

MLA Style Manual. 2nd ed., 3.9.7: Punctuation with Quotations. By convention, commas and periods go inside the closing quotation marks, but a parenthetical reference should intervene between the quotation and the required punctuation . . . All other punctuation marks—such as semicolons, colons, question marks, and exclamation points—go outside a closing quotation mark, except when they are part of the quoted material. —Wayward ^Talk 04:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Articles with American subjects should be written in the American style, and articles with non-American subjects should be written in the British style. Problem solved.—thegreentrilby 03:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not correct. The new rule says that all articles should follow the logical quotation style. PizzaMargherita 08:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

We've been over this a million times already. British usage = world usage. Even American style guides are finally starting to catch on to logical quoting. Wikipedia uses logical quoting. Let's move on. Kaldari 03:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I concur with thegreentrilby's summary of the rough consensus that has been arrived at through numerous debates. Actually, Kaldari has slightly misstated the situation; most American style guides prefer the traditional American style. For example, the Bluebook, which is used by nearly all American lawyers, judges, and law professors, states at Rule 5.1(b): "Always place commas and periods inside the quotation marks; place other punctuation marks inside the quotation marks only if they are part of the matter quoted." --Coolcaesar 04:43, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm an American convert to "logical quoting". I've been using the style for over ten years now, except when I've been forced to use the traditional style because I'm writing for publications that have adopted another style. It's sensible and easy to understand, and it has none of the gotchas of the traditional style. It can be stated extremely simply: "put punctuation belonging to the quote inside the quotation marks; any other punctuation goes outside". I think that the rationale for using American spelling in American articles doesn't really apply to quoting, because English spelling is largely empirical; logical quoting, on the other hand, is based on very simple rules. (If there were a widely-understood variant of English orthography that used purely phonetic spelling, I'd be in favor of Wikipedia using that consistently, too. But there isn't, so using phonetic spelling would be a barrier to readability. No such barrier exists here—people used to traditional American quoting rules can easily adapt to logical quoting.) --TreyHarris 08:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Aaargh! The biggest benefit of the so-called American style is that it ends bickering about whether a period (or sometimed even a comma) belongs to the quoted passage, which can be no smal blessing.

The biggest drawback of it is that it is, in my experience, probably only used by Americans with a college education. Even then, I've worked with U.S. journalists who were unfamiliar with it. ProhibitOnions 11:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the Brits prefer the "logical quotes" style because they love arguing—in this case, arguing over whether a mark of punctuation was part of the original quote or not. ::Ducks::—thegreentrilby 04:19, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as an American who was taught to use the American style, the British style makes much more sense and is used pretty much everywhere else. I see no reason for American bizzarness to apply to wikipedia. JoshuaZ 04:22, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. --maru (talk) contribs 04:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Jr., Sr., and other suffixes

It has recently come to my attention that some articles use a comma between a person's name and suffix and others do not. For example, Martin Luther King, Jr. and William Strunk Jr. I (nor a few other people who have discussed the issue with me) have not found any guideline on Wikipedia, but I have noticed that, while commas historically have often been used, it seems that the pedulum is swinging the other way again.

Logically, they should not be used, since even though, for example, there are three MLKs, they are three people. Therefore, following comma rules, Jr./Sr. is much more restrictive (no commas) than non-restictive (commas) becuase it's determining the person. Additionally, many people forget that, when a comma is used, a comma must follow: [Martin Luther King, Jr. wrote "I Have a Dream."] is incorrect, while [Martin Luther King, Jr., wrote "I Have a Dream."] is better, since it correctly uses commas.

Furthermore, both the Chicago Manual of Style and Strunk and White's Elements of Style (and probably others, but I just checked these two becuase of issues of time and access) support not using commas.

Therefore, I would like to propose that a style guideline be created stating not use commas with suffixes based on the support from major/popular manuals of style and on the appeal of logic/comma rules). //MrD9 00:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Chicago (FAQ, since I can't find it or Elements on Google Print)

I second your proposal. It's good to have consistancy and the non-use of commas seem more logical. Jimp 01:35, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Aren't Jr, Sr, Dr, Mr, Mrs, St, Sts, and other such personal abbreviations which include the first and last letters of the expanded word supposed to be written without a period (.)? —Michael Z. 2006-03-02 02:05 Z

Ugh, British English... I totally forgot about this (btw, the "ugh" is not due to British English, it's due to my lack of remembering this difference between Britsh/US usage). I do not know what to say, since I havent seen any WP (or other) names ever written without the period in Jr/Sr, but that's because I'm from the US and chance has it I haven't stumbled across any. There are probably others who are better aware of this issue (and the whole Brit/Amer English policies in general) who could better answer, but my logical guess would be that the period could be used in names that tie with Britsh English-speaking countries, while the opposite with the US? Regardless, though, I still think we have to standardize the comma usage (rather, a lack of comma usage), and hoepfulyl someone can comment on the period/nonperiod issue with a good solution. //MrD9 02:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree - we have no right or need to alter people's names. Use what they used. For many that will be with a comma. Like "Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr."[9]. There is no need to impose a false consistency. Rmhermen 03:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that most articles are written by the people they are about. Therefore, the article titles are most likely commaed or not based on the author's preferences, and to people unaware of the style issues regarding them, they will most likely use a comma becuase it is what has been used up until recent years. While still used widely today, like I said, the lack of a comma is growing and becoming more preferable due to the logic behind it. //MrD9 00:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Mr., Mrs., Dr., etc. only lack a period in British punctuation. To North American readers, it looks wrong. Felicity4711 03:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Not true: Dr Pepper doesn't have a period! 121.73.184.132 (talk) 02:07, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Isn't the comma or lack thereof part of the person's name? My birth certificate includes it, and when I use my full birth name, I include it. If someone else doesn't use the comma, then we shouldn't either. Standardizing would seem to me to be like standardizing on hyphenation or spacing within a name. We don't standardize all Vandebergs, Van de Bergs, and VandeBergs, why would we standardize this? --TreyHarris 03:05, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not, though. It's most likely there due to the gramatically illogical use of it by most people in the past. Your last name is still your last name; your first, your first; your middle, your middle; and your suffix, if you have one, your suffix. The last names you mentioned are official (or are used as if they were official, in some cases). They are their last names. But junior/senior are suffixes, and it depends on the writer's style to determine the punctuation with it. For example, the U.S. government varies between use of "Martin Luther King Jr." and "Martin Luther King, Jr." when talking about the national holiday, his national memorials, documents, and various other topics (I googled it before). And in a regular enecylopedia, the usage would be standardized, so why should it not be standardized here (preferably without the comma, as it is becoming more preferred, is logical, and looks better). //MrD9 03:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Birth certificates are also issued by many different agencies in many different places, so by their very nature they are going to be (and are) inconsistent, since people in different places, even if there are standardized rules in one office, are going to create different standard styles for their documents (or if there are no standards, then there's even less consistency. //MrD9 03:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that without a comma is more logical, nor that suffixes are not part of a legal name. Whatever is on the certificate is the name. Rmhermen 00:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. In the United States, typopgraphy and orthography and even spelling on some birth certificate has little or nothing to do with it. What you use is what matters, and even then, the presence or absence of a comma has no legal significance and no real bearing on whether or not we include it here. Gene Nygaard 06:42, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. There are plenty of people indexed by names other than their birth names. Certainly a suffix can be (and almost always is) part of a legal name; my interpretation of MrD9's point is that people (generally) have a first, middle, and last name (of course there can be multiple or no middle name – and, frankly, I can only speak for most of the United States), and possibly a suffix. The former president's birth certificate may list "James Earl Carter, Jr.", but it is accurate to say that his first name is James, his middle name is Earl, his last name is Carter, and his suffix is Jr. Wikipedia could choose to index names as <first> <middle> <last> <suffix> (thus indexing the president as "James Earl Carter Jr."). We could also index him as Carter, James Earl, Jr. (though I definitely vote for the former). The point is that this question is about indexing not what's on their birth certificate. Needless to say, I third (or whatever we're at) the nomination for such a style guideline. (If some special note as to how their birth certificate appears is necessary, it can always be added; it needn't be in the page title.) How does this process work, anyway? Something tells me that it's not as simple as three people agreeing and then voilà, it's in. Alan smithee 07:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW there is a convention on the question at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Senior and junior. -- User:Docu

Quotation marks

Why is it that my English grammar book says that commas and periods always go within the quotation marks, but the MoS says to "include the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation"? My grammar book says that rule applies to question marks, but never to periods or commas. ⇒ JarlaxleArtemis 06:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Your "English grammar book" is actually an "American grammar book". Wikipedia follows its own compromise position between American usage and British usage. This has already been debated at length and decided upon. -Will Beback 06:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

To make it clearer: The compromise is that we allow American English usage in articles purely about American subjects (for example, U.S. state or San Francisco), where it would look odd, especially to Americans (about 2/3 of all native English speakers), to use non-American punctuation---but then use the Commonwealth English/British English usage everywhere else. --Coolcaesar 19:11, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Uh, really? Where are you getting that? I thought Wikipedia had a uniform style of commas outside the quotes. In fact, I just checked San Francisco, and it does its commas outside the quotes. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 19:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, in the case of San Francisco, that's because we get British/Commonwealth newbies all the time who keep introducing Britishisms like "practise", "lorry", or "petrol" into American articles where "practice," "truck," and "gasoline" are more appropriate. Please see Section 13 of the main MoS article, "National varieties," which states: "If an article's subject has a strong tie to a specific region/dialect, it should use that dialect." If you trace back through the article history, you'll see that this statement has been in the MoS in one form or another for about a year, and directly evolved out of a much older statement in the "Usage and spelling" section. --Coolcaesar 20:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

WP always adopts the logical quotation style, which is not British, and not even non-American, but logical. It is not a compromise. It is not dependent on the nature of the article. It has nothing to do with the botched rules for national varieties.

This has been discussed so many times it should be considered vandalism to discuss it any further (joking). The last one was less than one month ago. Thanks. PizzaMargherita 20:13, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems somewhat disingenuous for us to describe the decision about quotation marks as a "compromise" or a "splitting of the difference" (and not just for the reasons cited by PizzaMargherita). British usage hardly demands single quotation marks where American usage would demand double. More importantly, I don't see why this can't be another matter that is decided the way spelling is decided: be consistent with whatever the first nonstub version used was, and use the style of quoting favored by the region about which one is writing. Maybe this has been discussed a lot, but that doesn't mean the decision didn't manifest anti-US bias, and thus can never be reviewed. A true compromise would allow people to use the style that makes sense for them (unless they're writing about a topic whose "region-ness" would demand something else). --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-06-29 14:35 (UTC) P.S. And why is the default date format produced by ~~~~ British? Why not a more "logical" form (see one line up), combined with the default of UTC (which is European, if widely accepted elsewhere)? That would be some sort of "compromise," oui?

British punctuation in articles written in American English

I'm dismayed that WP policy is to use British-style punctuation (punctuation outside quotation marks) in articles that are written in American English. Sorry, but it's just wrong. WP might as well set a policy that "through" is to be spelled "thru." It doesn't make sense for WP to make up new rules of punctuation that are not used anywhere else, in any publication, anywhere in the English-speaking world. It also doesn't make sense to set a rule that will be violated by any literate person who hasn't read WP's Manual of Style. Anyone who understands the mechanics of punctuation in American English will naturally correct these mistakes --- and they are mistakes, regardless of whether the MoS tries to decree that they're not.--24.52.254.62 20:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Where does it say that? — Omegatron 21:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It's a house style, not a mistake. Nothing to get tied up in knots about. —Michael Z. 2006-08-11 23:04 Z

It's correct that, according to the MoS, Hart's Rules should be used. But that doesn't apply to US-specific articles, I think. Since US-specific articles should use US spelling "and style," it is acceptable to use punctuation like "this." SpNeo 11:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

No, this is an exception to the convention. Likewise, British articles don't use quote marks 'like "this"'. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

On the one hand, house styles can indeed be as arbitrary as the proprietors can get away with. And on the other, readers familiar with established conventions are free to find oddities of usage odd (or even semi-literate). I understand that in matters such as the serial comma, different organizations favor different practices, but in the matter of punctuating quotation marks, it makes sense to follow the flag rather than "splitting the difference." Is WP a US or UK enterprise? RLetson 05:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's an international enterprise, operated by an organization whose official place of registration happens to be in the United States. The problem with "following the flag" is that it results in inconsistent treatment, and it's fortunate that a compromise could be arrived upon in this matter at least. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the standard on WP has always been to use British spelling, punctuation, and vocabulary consistently in articles on specifically British subjects, and similarly for American style on American subjects. I don't see how it could reasonably be done any other way, since Americans don't know British spelling, vocabulary, and punctuation and vice versa -- and it looks ridiculous to mix them. If I'm understanding SpNeo's comment correctly, it seems to match what people actually do on WP. The only reason I was motivated to post here was that someone came along and officiously changed all the punctuation in Robert A. Heinlein to British style, refusing to take no for an answer from the Americans who had been working on this article about an American. It would be nice if the manual of style would just say a little more explicitly that there's nothing wrong with using consistently American style on a specifically American subject.--24.52.254.62 01:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

not a standard widely followed, however, and fortunately so

Every publisher in the English speaking world uses the conventions of his location. If a UK edition is published, and then a US, all the quotation marks and all the spelling will be changed. Some books with UK conventions are sold in the US, as not all works have a separate US edition. In addition, some works intending to have a "UK flavour" will retain the UK conventions. But the intent of this policy is apparently that all articles about English monarchs should be in UK style, including both the spelling and the use of punctuation. But look at them: US spelling is used, and US style quotation marks. We can't have a Wiki with style considered acceptable by publishers and educators in both countries, because there isn't any. The only way we could achieve that-- eventually--is to have UK and US versions with all the punctuation etc. automatically changed. Our goal for now ought to be a style which the readers of both countries will accept, which is fairly flexible, as readers do at least occasionally encounter both outside WP. An additional consideration is the ease of writing and editing. I want to write in the way I find easiest--there is quite enough problems without using an alien style. I do not want to go around changing other people's national style, or have them waste time changing mine. Let them look to my errors, instead. I'm not going to go through the English monarchs and change every quotation mark. I don't think anybody should. In the meanwhile, the best we can have is consistency. Certainly within an article: anyone editing an article ought to follow the style of the article, and it would be right to change inadvertent difference as one finds them. Possibly within a series of articles, possibly within a type of article, such as pop culture figures specific to one or another country, or which deliberately maintain such specificity. DGG 08:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur with you on this issue. For American topics, I see no reason why Wikipedia should adhere to an unsightly punctuation style for which many English teachers in the United States would give a student only half credit (a C grade) or worse. --Coolcaesar 02:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, what happens if they misspell "its" as "it's" then? Do they amputate their right hand? Anyway, as was said in the archives, unsightliness is in the eye of the beholder... PizzaMargherita 10:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Right, but there are a lot of beholders in the U.S. We have a huge publishing industry unequalled anywhere else which overwhelmingly prefers the practice of consistently placing commas and periods inside quotation marks because it is more aesthetically pleasing. Also, we don't amputate, we simply flunk people out of school. Eventually they end up in prison. See three-strikes laws for information on what happens then. --Coolcaesar 22:47, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Quite a few of them, however, seem to slip through the net and end up in reputable jobs.

I bow to the magnitude of "your" publishing industry, but don't forget about the scores of beholders and publishers everywhere else in the world (including America) that adopt the other convention. PizzaMargherita 05:28, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

At present, the convention is to put punctuation marks outside of quotes if they aren't part of the quote, whatever the topic of the article. If you would like to change it, discuss it here, do not revert someone who tries to edit an article to conform to our style guidelines. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You might want to try avoiding imperatives like "do not." It comes off as rude and pushy. There are other ways to phrase a suggestion than by giving an order. You might also want to try other techniques rather than charging into an article and making a change against the consensus of editors who actually have a history of substantial contributions to the article.--24.52.254.62 03:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The principle that Wikipedia guidelines should generally be followed deserves imperatives, and general consensus trumps local consensus. Whether we have general consensus is up for debate, but something that's been on one of our biggest guideline pages for a couple of years needs to be considered prima facie to have consensus. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Æsthetics is in the eye of the beholder as was mentioned. There may be a lot of beholders in the US but there are more outside. As for me, I don't find logical punctuation unsightly. Quite the contrary for me it's American punctuation which is the eye-sore. --Jimp 00:42, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

disagreement about WP style guidelines, and imperatives

In my particular field, scholarly publishing , the overwhelming majority of publishing is outside the US, as it has always been. Most scholarly journals use one style or another, because in conventional publication, one looks through an issue and it is unsettling if the successive ones do not look the same. In e-journals and other contemporary forms, people read each article by itself. They are as likely to go from an article of publisher A to one of publisher B, and, although they may notice the style difference, they don't much care. There's no real precedent for a work like this one. The structure invites people to go from one article to another, but the overall consistency in the makeup of the page is enough. If we keep that, its sufficient.

• the effort devoted by publishers to house style is probably non-productive--it makes them feel important.
• the effort devoted here to house style serves a similar purpose--it makes the copyeditors among us feel important.
• much more to the point would be effort expended in fact checking, in clarifying the structure of WP, in ensuring articles are understandable and correct, and inconsistencies with other articles are found, and either adjusted or explained.
• And that the number of references and the sourcing of material and the other important guidelines that affect usefulness and content are followed.
• the need for a MOS in WP is to help the editor/authors. There are many matters where people need help with problems they have ever encountered; where their is a customary style, but non-specialists will not know it.

It's a reference, not a textbook

• The discussion below about quotation style illustrates my point. It is perfectly possible to follow any of the contradictory set of WP conventions and end up with useful citations; it is also possible to follow them and produce the opposite.
• We need to be prescriptive about the results, readability and accuracy.
• We need style guidelines for problems that were not obvious at first--adding dates to quotations and data so they can be updated, saying the same thing twice over, trying to get too much into the lead--especially details which really belong much lower down.

We do indeed need to worry about style, but we are worrying about the wrong half--the "accidentals", not the "substantatives". The punctuation, not the ideas. DGG 08:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Are we discussing quotation style? Again? It's not the "British" way, nor the "American" way. It's called logical quotation style. Wikipedia adopts it. End of story. Shall we put a comment in the MoS with a reference to the archives? PizzaMargherita 07:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course it is the British way and the American way, and those who call one of these the "logical" style confuse their own familiarity with "logicality". Redefining the language may fool some people, but it doesn't constitute an argument. If Wikipedia wants to adopt British style, that's fine, but it shouldn't misrepresent facts as it does so. - Nunh-huh 08:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Please check the archives. PizzaMargherita 08:51, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, but one would be stupid to believe that adopting the name "logical" for a style of punctuation actually makes it logical, no matter what people have said to the contrary in the archives. - Nunh-huh 08:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

What's illogical about it? Only the punctuation that is part of the actual quotation goes inside the quotation marks. This makes it logical. Conversely, how is the other convention logical?

Being not logical, it is ambiguous. Consider this.

Did Jane say "really?"

What am I asking, if she said "really?" or "really"? Or, using the confusing convention, what am I asking, if she said "really?" or "really?"

Finally, it's inconsistent, or anyway the rules are more complicated. Consider this.

Did Jane say "Shut up!"?

Why does the question mark stay outside in this case? PizzaMargherita 09:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Positioning of punctuation is a matter of convention, not logic. This should surprise no one: it is so with most matters of style. - Nunh-huh 10:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Very good then, Wikipedia adopts the logical convention. Which incidentally, as discussed in the archives, it's not correct to call "British", nor it's entirely correct to call the other one "American". PizzaMargherita 10:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Conventions are conventions. They are not intrisically logical or illogical; they are conventional, and one is not better than another because you call it "the logical convention", just as you can't make someone "pro-death" by calling their opponents "pro-life". And we call things by the names by which they are known, whether or not you think they are entirely correctly so called or not. - Nunh-huh 11:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Conventions may not be "intrinsically" logical or illogical, but they can be demonstrated to be so. Your argument has failed to convince me that the convention adopted by Wikipedia after a long debate (and I can't see any new elements being brought forward here) is not logical and that the other one is not illogical, inconsistent (or more complicated) and ambiguous. Feel free to propose a better name for the logical convention. PizzaMargherita 12:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that were you to become arbiter of what things are called, it would be important to convince you. In the meantime, I suggest you call it "the current Wikipedia style suggestion" rather than trying to enforce your perceptions of what is logical by a feat of naming. - Nunh-huh 12:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It is very important to convince me as well as everybody else who agreed to adopt this convention. That of being logical is an objective property and has nothing to do with my perception, or anybody else's. Do you agree or do you not agree that one convention is logical and the other one is not? If you don't, are you able to explain why? Also calling it a suggestion when in fact it is an adopted convention would be negating the discussions that led to its adoption. PizzaMargherita 13:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be you, rather than "everybody else who agreed to adopt this convention", who is campaigning to call it the "logical" one. Placement of punctuation is not a matter of logic, but a matter of convention. If logic were involved, and one convention were clearly more logical than all others, there wouldn't be different conventions, would there? Therefore trying to "convince" you that one convention is more logical or less logical would be a silly task, because "logic" simply isn't involved. - Nunh-huh 13:55, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

If logic were involved, and one convention were clearly more logical than all others, there wouldn't be different conventions, would there?—Yes there would. They would be illogical and ambiguous, and demonstrably so. PizzaMargherita 14:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, thanks for proving that opinion rather than logic is your strong point. - Nunh-huh 21:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"Demonstrably so"? Then go ahead and demonstrate. Please note that you can't postulate anything that we don't all agree to fully; that's begging the question. I expect a proof in formal logical notation, please, if the convention is in fact more logical.

The truth of the matter is, it's not more logical. It's occasionally less ambiguous than the American style, but only by a small degree, and that still only makes it more logical if you accept the axiom that style rules should be geared to minimize ambiguity, which clearly not everyone here does (I largely do). It's certainly not any more logical than the British style. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have provided at least one instance that shows that the convention that you call "American" is ambiguous, and one instance that shows that it's inconsistent. Can you provide one counterexample? The current rule is more logical at least in the loose sense of the word, in that it's rational. You put in the quotes what is part of the quotes. I strongly believe that this is less logical than a rule that says "you put in the quotes the quotation itself, and other random stuff that has nothing to do with the quotation".

Anyway, if you are suggesting that the style should not be called "logical" but "unambiguous", or "consistent", or "clear", or "simple", or "rational" I have no problems with that, although I would still prefer "logical". Other suggestions are welcome. PizzaMargherita 21:42, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The style is less ambiguous. I wouldn't object to calling them "unambiguous quotations", although obviously that sacrifices precision for concision. The point is that preferring less ambiguous constructions to more traditional ones is not inherently "logical". —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

If that were true you would be able to disprove that the one convention is logical and the other one is not. Sadly, you are trying to use irrational denial to do that. PizzaMargherita 05:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

PizzaMargherita, thanks for the pointer to the numerous past discussions on this issue. The fact that this gets brought up over and over again indicates several things: (1) Lots of people think the MoS is wrong as written. (2) Lots of people think it's ambiguous as written. (3) It's completely out of step with the way WP actually works. (4) It's causing lots of problems and conflicts between editors. Since the discussion indicates that there's a massive problem with the current policy (interpreted literally and without allowing for exceptions), the logical thing to do would be to change the broken part of the policy so that it works the same as the other policies, which aren't broken: articles should use US style or British style consistently, and the choice should be based on the topic, or on the style in which the article was originally written.--24.52.254.62 20:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I would have said this, but the anonymous user said it better. There is no logical style for details; no one has ever found a perfect way of handling quotations, or references, There is a pattern and a explanation for how various point of English grammar arose, but that does not make them "logical." Similarly with typography--there is knowledge of how our conventions arose and why they differ: that does not make them logical.

PizzaMargherita, you were not appointed head grammarian. If the MOS were intended to be enforced rigorously, then I would think it worth demonstrating how you have gotten amost of what you discuss confused. I advise you not to try enforcement. Anyone who makes large scale changes to express their stubbornness about the one right way to do punctuation should be looked for, and reverted. I'd say this even if I thought your "logical" style had any logic. This is not a question of what style is right, its a question of how to do coperative work. DGG 08:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

All of those points are a matter of opinion. My opinion is that the current system is better than one page uses one style, another uses another. This is how things work on Wikipedia, it's a widely-accepted convention even if some people disagree with it. I don't think it should be changed. If you would like to propose it be changed, by all means you can try, but don't unilaterally pretend it doesn't exist. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:41, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

You might want to try avoiding imperatives like "...don't unilaterally pretend..." It comes off as rude and pushy. There are other ways to phrase a suggestion than by giving an order.--24.52.254.62 03:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

If you think that the current policy on national spellings is working, you are mistaken. The policy on punctuation and quotes was changed to put an end to edit wars. Note that the same cannot be done with spelling because in that case it's not true that one variety is clearly superior to others, and the different styles do reflect geography. PizzaMargherita 05:30, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

But even there, it's important to note that in many cases one spelling is preferred. Aluminium uses the British name, and sulfur the American, because that's the IUPAC standard (I don't know if changing all instances of one to the other is a good idea, though, outside of chemistry articles). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 19:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The quotation style has been in place for I think at least couple of years, probably longer. I expect that it is a compromise. I see no need to change it. Maurreen 06:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Very early in this discussion, somebody said "It also doesn't make sense to set a rule that will be violated by any literate person who hasn't read WP's Manual of Style." I agree with this statement completely. It's very frustrating for me to have to learn a whole new set of rules for Wikipedia that don't apply any where else. I, an American, should be free to use American conventions when writing for/about Americans, and it's rather silly of Wikipedia to ask me to do otherwise. As for Convention vs. Logic, when I read the talk above about the "logical" approach, it seems that some of the people arguing don't even know the rules that they are arguing for or against. For example, the rule of placing punctuation inside or outside of quotation marks refers chiefly to periods and commas. The rule for question marks is this: The question mark goes inside the quote if and only if it is part of the quote. Perfectly logical, and (I believe) the same on both sides of the Atlantic, so irrelevent to this discussion. -- MiguelMunoz 11:47, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

why, Maurreen

do you think you have accomplished anything positive? The total inconsistency within articles remains. The articles completely ignoring the need for clarity remain. The number of articles that ignore the UK/US convention probably increases. There is no way to enforce the details except by being a dictator, which i believe is not the WP intent. The MOS is for the purposes of saying: here are a few good ways to do things. Look at them, look at similar articles, and see what works and what doesn't. And if you have to do something you never imagined, like decide whether to capitalize transliterated Japanese, most of our people who have encountered it have been doing it thus and so. The rules that need attention in WP are the basic ones about content. DGG 08:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

"I, an American, should be free to use American conventions when writing for/about Americans?" You are free to use the style you desire. To think otherwise is to misunderstand the purpose of the MoS. Others are free "edit mercilessly" and if that brings your writing (which is yours now only in the sense of having been written by you) in line with the MoS, all well and good. Rich Farmbrough 09:16 29 August 2006 (GMT).

and of course this implies that others are free to re-edit. And if the editors and the re-editors pay attention to this sort of nonsensical detail, the quality and objectivity of the content will not get the proper attention. I have a suggestion for those who like detail: go verifying internal and external links and addding themany needed redirects. Don't try to teach your colleagues how to punctuate. DGG 08:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

?? period inside quotes if full sentence is quoted ??

I never heard of this rule, that the article advocates:

• Arthur said, "The situation is deplorable." (The full sentence is quoted; the period is part of the quotation.)

Most American guidebooks say that the comma or period is always inside the quotation marks. I thought that British guidebooks say that the comma or period is always outside. Is that right?

The (contrary) rule in this article seems unworkable to me. What if I put the period outside the quotes --

• Arthur said, "The situation is deplorable".

and then I tell you "sure, the sentence that Arthur spoke was the four-word sentence. But I chose to quote only the four words, I chose to terminate my quote just before Arthur's period. Then of course per British custom and Wikipedia rules, I put my period outside the quotes"?

Also, I have changed "the situation" to "The situation". If we're quoting the full sentence, then it must begin with a capital. But I really don't know the rules (US/UK) for capitalizing the initial letter of a quoted sentence --

She said, "Don't do that!"

or

She said, "don't do that!"

-- which is correct?

TH 05:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, British style guides prefer the "logical placement" of punctuation, where (a) a period inside the quotes indicates that there is a period there in the original, and (b) no period inside the quotes indicates that there isn't one there in the original. In other words,

• Arthur said, "The situation is deplorable".

implies that Arthur did not end the sentence after "deplorable", while

• Arthur said, "The situation is deplorable."

means that he did end it there. As far as the capitalization, I'm not entirely sure; I've seen the initil capital dropped when the sentence being quoted functions as a clause of the quoting one. For example:

• According to Arthur, "the elephant population has tripled."

It may be something that varies depending on the exact style guide being followed. Kirill Lokshin 05:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Can you suggest a highly regarded online British style guide I could check?

TH 05:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The Oxford Style Manual, maybe? (I generally use the Chicago, so I'm not particularly familiar with British guides.) Kirill Lokshin 05:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The punctuation topic has been discussed to death already. House style is house style. Please see the dicussion titled #British punctuation in articles written in American English on this very page. --Rob Kennedy 17:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

It's been archived. Jimp 08:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

A good guide to British English is Fowler's Modern English Usage (3rd edition). If you want an online guide, try that of The Times, jguk 12:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it may have been discussed to death already, but I certainly never thought I should check and see if Wikipedia invented new grammar rules for me to use. I bet I'm not alone there. Are there other cases where I should be checking Wikipedia's Manual of Style and finding out how Wikipedia amalgamated to create something brand new? How could anyone possible keep track of this? KP Botany 01:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Quotations

The examples on this page are not precisely clear: What should be done in the following case:

George writes that it "gives the impression that it is actively speciating to fill the many ecological niches through its range".

Or,

George writes that it "gives the impression that it is actively speciating to fill the many ecological niches through its range."

Is this a "fragment" or a "full sentence" that carries the meaning of the full stop? Either way, could an example such as this be added to clarify this problem? --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 06:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I doubt we will ever get agreement on this. Nor is it really important: either should be acceptable, it's a borderline case. - Jmabel | Talk 00:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Comma inside or outside quotation marks: can we clarify at WP:MoS?

Could we add an explicit statement at Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Punctuation specifically stating whether commas should go inside or outside quotation marks? Or is there not enough consensus to do so? (I don't want to restart the debate over which way is better; I merely want to know whether a consensus has been reached at the English Wikipedia on this point.) --Lph 04:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

For some time it's been (more or less) stable as "put the punctuation mark inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation mark is part of the quotation". That's not quite the same as "always outside", but no style guide actually uses "always outside". Does that help? Alai 01:13, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

There are always the descenters but general consensus has for some time been in favour of logical quotation. Alai gives a good summary what this means. The Punctuation section on this page goes into more detail. Do you feel that it's either not clear or not explicite enough? Jimp 00:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your responses. Looking at it a second time, it is pretty clear. I guess I was unsure because the examples used a period and a question mark, i.e. sentence-ending punctuation marks, and not a comma. --Lph 17:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Commas inside quotes

wow I'm kinda shocked about WP:PUNC's commas & quotes stuff. I distinctly remember reading a Barron's grammar guide that said precisely the opposite. What authority was referred to when coming to this conclusion? Thanks Ling.Nut 11:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You're referring the so-called logical style of placing punctuation outside quotes if it's structurally part of the external sentence in which the quote exists. Have a read of it again. We don't need outside authorities for justification, although they play a role in the policy we make here. WP's MOS serves its unique mode, readership and function. Tony 11:35, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I understood that the "non-logical" style was based on the typographical aesthetics of the printed page, which are of less relevance to Wikipedia. The logical style is normal in British English and is also preferred in IT circles, where punctuation can be critical. Even though the Chicago University Press continue to use the "American style", they also say (in the Chicago Manual of Style) that the logical style is used in linguistic and philosophical works; textual criticism is another field named as presenting problems for "American" style. The Oxford University Press use the logical style and they point out (in the Oxford Guide to Style) that the ambiguity of the "US practice" can lead to problems when material from US and British sources are mixed. This could be an issue for Wikipedia. --Boson 19:17, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it could, and is precisely why WP settled on logical style; quotations using US-style that are themselves inside quotations can be handled with ^[sic] in the rare case that they actually introduce an ambiguity. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I understood that the “non-logical” style was based on the typographical aesthetics of the printed page, which are of less relevance to Wikipedia.

Like hell they are! Wikipedia should look as aesthetically nice as a printed page. Felicity4711 03:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

but the same graphical considerations do not apply. For html, both ways look equally clunkyDGG (talk) 03:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

As a writer myself, commas outside quotation marks look wrong and actually make me stop while I'm reading. I am SURE other professional writers feel the same way about it. Can we discuss changing this one? Even the Associated Press Stylebook agrees and AP Style is to help make written material as easy as possible to comprehend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmbandnut (talk • contribs) 09:00, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

I find the complete opposite; commas inside quotes look all wrong to me and make me stop. I have copy edited and written professionally too. DrKiernan (talk) 15:35, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Logical and typesetters' punctuation

NB: the proposal here is to acknowledge that Wikipedians in fact use both, as English-speakers in general do. What we recommend is secondary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I would view it the other way around. Editors should strive to conform to policy. What is recommended here is primary. Departures from this need correcting rather than acknoledgement on this page. Jɪmp 07:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. We don't bother acknowledging that many people use "ain't", say "aks" for "ask", use apostrophes in constructions like "apple's on sale, $1/doz.", and so forth. From a purely descriptive linguistic point of view there is nothing wrong with these usages; they simply are. But it is not the purpose of the MoS to provide a linguistic description of usages that are not helpful to the encyclopedia. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

My view is that this is part of a tenacious and gradual strategy by Anderson to weaken the status of MOS. It has been going on for more than a month—first at MOSNUM, and now at MOS—and fortunately has been resisted for the most part. One of the tenets of this strategy is to assert that MOS is an unreasonable impost, an incursion on the writer's freedom. The latest flag-flying in this campaign is an image of a light-bulb, presumably to attract the troops to the front line.

I agree entirely with SMcCandlish, Jimp and others here whose expertise and linguistic authority helps to knit together what could be a chaotic project: MOS should not be reconceived as a mere description of what people do, but should remain, as it has evolved until the present, a document that encourages linguistic cohesion, unafraid to prescribe where this is seen as appropriate by speakers from the several main varieties of English who know and care about the language and the project. Otherwise, WP will lose some of the edge it has over the other yields of a Google search, which are disparate in linguistic style and formatting. Such cohesion is part of the reason that WP has gained authority on the jungle that is the Internet.

To take the bull by the horns, my experience at FAC, FAR/C and elsewhere has indicated to me that our editors, on the whole, quite like centralised guidance in matters of style, and that many are pleased to have an in-house resource on which to rely as they undertake the complex process of creating and improving articles. I myself have improved my writing through consulting MOS.

Please take this into consideration when assessing the arguments of those who would cast MOS as a tool with which zealots bludgeon others on the brow, to borrow the wording and tenor of more than a few edit summaries during this extended discourse. Tony 05:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, Tony, I have to say I can't exactly see you as a disinterested party in the question of how "strong" the MOS should be. You obviously have a lot of influence here, and it seems in fact to be your main interest. So your personal influence over WP as a whole is almost directly proportional to the authority granted to the MOS. I see the same dynamic going on in the issue of the "submanuals" and the position you have taken vis a vis those.

On the narrow punctuation issue, as I've said, I prefer "logical" punctuation. But on the broader issue I'm not happy with an intrusive MOS. Yes, I do think the MOS should be prescriptive to some extent, and I probably don't go as far as Septentrionalis in trying to keep it contained. But I think the MOS should stick to basics and not descend into minutiae. An experienced editor should pretty much be able to know the whole MOS just more or less by osmosis. --Trovatore 07:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"your personal influence over WP as a whole is almost directly proportional to the authority granted to the MOS. I see the same dynamic going on in the issue of the "submanuals" and the position you have taken vis a vis those." I'm certainly not a disinterested party, but I'd like to know what evidence or logical consideration you have for these assertions that I somehow have a conflict of interest in taking a side here. I hate big-noting, power seeking, celebrity and display: that much should be clear from my user page; but I suspect that no one is at all interested; why should they be? As far as your feelings about "minutiae", I can't agree that MOS shouldn't deal with small yet commonly occurring details, where necessary. And what are these "basics" you talk of? Where would the boundary be drawn? Tony 08:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by a conflict of interest in "taking a side here". If "here" is punctuation, I don't think that. But you have a clear personal interest in making the MOS more authoritative in general, because it increases your personal influence over WP. I think this is pretty obvious.

I don't have an enumerated list of what the "basics" are (if I did, it would be my outline for the whole ideal MOS, and I don't have such an outline). I am nevertheless stating my preference that the MOS should stick to basics, and hoping some people will agree. Which items are basic is case by case. --Trovatore 17:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

If "the basics" cannot be ("case by case") or simply haven't been ("don't have") objectively defined, then logically the MoS cannot stick to them. Re: "An experienced editor should pretty much be able to know the whole MOS just more or less by osmosis", that appears to actually be the case at present, with the situation improving all the time (other than that when it changes, people have to catch up and absorb the changes); I find myself making fewer and fewer MoS corrections as time goes on, because more and more other editors make them long before I arrive on the scene of formerly-offending copy. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure that it's fair to paint Tony as a power-grabber. At least give the bloke the benifit of the doubt: might it not be that he simply cares about creating a well-written encyclopædia? Either way, though, his motives aren't really what's at issue here. "MoS should stick to 'the basics' but what these are is case-by-case." boils down to "What MoS should stick to is case-by-case." Okay, what of this case then? Seems to me that logical vs. illogical* punctuation is something that MoS should have something to say about.

(*Excuse my naming it so but calling it American punctuation is not quite right since many Americans don't use it and calling it æsthetic punctuation isn't right either since ... well, it doesn't look pretty to me.) Jɪmp 01:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I never called Tony a power-grabber. All I'm doing is pointing out that, with respect to the question "how important should the MoS be?", he has a personal interest in the answer.

Two things are important to note here: First, I didn't say "conflict of interest", the term Tony used. You can't have a conflict of interest unless you have a fiduciary responsibility, which Tony doesn't; he's an advocate for his views, and that's fine. But others evaluating his arguments ought to consider the extent to which those views align with what's best for Tony.

Second, I'm not suggesting any hipocrisy or insincerity. He probably truly believes that an assertive and comprehensive MoS is the best thing for Wikipedia. But what we sincerely believe does often have a strong correlation with what's good for us; that's just how we're built. Others evaluating the proposition "Tony's a smart guy so what he thinks is best for WP probably really is", need to take that effect into account. --Trovatore 18:14, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep. This was pointed out earlier, but its worth doing so again. I favor the term "illogical punctuation", heh, but the only accurate neutral term for it I've encountered is "typesetters' punctuation", since it is fact a typesetting convention that has held over long after the days of manually-placed little bits of metal type were in (regular, non-artisanal) use. Changed section heading to that term. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Punctuation and quotation marks

The Quotation marks section is inconsistent with the Chicago manual of style's recommendation of American English grammar. The Chicago MOS says to put all commas and periods inside the quotation marks and colons and semicolons outside (example: correct: “sentence.” incorrect: “sentence”.). While I realize British English usage requires all commas, periods, and semicolons go on the outside of quotes, this is not true for American English usage. The WP:MOS recommendation fails to mention American English grammar and recommends against proper grammar usage; this results in users changing the punctuation on American related articles to the style recommended on WP:MOS, even though it is inconsistent with proper grammar usage of American English. Does anyone object to re-wording part of this section to explain American English usage, or have any input, comments, or suggestions to how to address this. My main concern is that proper grammar is not being followed, which makes the article seem less encyclopedic. Thanks. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 01:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The section seems correct to me. The way to quote described there is how I always learned it. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (quotes and quote marks),[10],[11], [12], and Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_archive_(quotes_and_quote_marks_2). i ^said 01:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been a long-standing requirement. Many people think that Chicago should get real and use the so-called logical system. It's not a grammatical issue, BTW. Tony 14:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

But we should allow both; not to do so would be Anglo-American warring, which is contrary to policy. When we differ on something, we should say so. The alternative is to mark the entire section disputed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Total red herring. The "illogical quoting" is neither limited to Americans, nor practiced by all Americans, nor consistently practiced by the American publishing industries. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Septentrionalis.--Coolcaesar 03:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As others have pointed out previously on this page (archived, too), it's not about throwing cream buns across the Atlantic; this cuts across the varieties: all English-speakers, for example, use the "non-logical" format at the end of direct quotes, particularly in works of fiction. Many North Americans retain the distinction between punctuation that logically belongs in the underlying sentence, and punctuation that is in the quoted source. It's WP's strong desire not to touch original quotes that won the day here. Tony 05:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Some Americans punctuate logically, but most do not, and are taught not to. To present arguments for both is reasonable; to forbid one is not. The CMS does in fact allow both, but warns against logical punctuation, on the grounds that it requires extraordinary care and some judgment on the part of the proofreader; this may be more care and judgment than Wikipedia may be exprected to supply. As Tony said, this is not a grammatical issue; and insofar as it is an accuracy issue, it is trivial. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It is not trivial at all, or it wouldn't have come out this way and the logical style would not be being defended by a (recently growing, I note) majority here. It is not reasonable to present both options (that just leads to inconsistency, and gives equal weight to both reason and emotion); to recommend against (guidelines can't "forbid" anything at all) illogical quotation style is emminently sensible. As others have pointed out, CMS is not the MoS, and really their argument is simply one of laziness. The CMS, BTW, is intended for mass-market writers/editors such as fiction writers and journalists, and its recommendations on this particular matter (among many others) are directly countermanded by the style guidelines of scientific and other technical fields/publications. Argument to authority is especially fallacious when the authority is not particularly authoritative, which CMS is not outside of its target market, and especially not when it comes to Wikipedia, which has its own standards, generally more stringent in many ways, though looser in others (in that it is less prescriptive grammatically, to account for various dialects of English, while CMS only addresses one. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a recommendation to use blockquotes in those rare cases where the terminal punctuation on quoted matter could affect the meaning? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Blockquotes are for long passages, and are not a 1:1 alternative to the use of quotation marks; you are mixing apples and oranges. It's bit like responding to "using this sharp, thin knife to spread butter doesn't work very well", with "perhaps use a Ferarri instead". — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason to change the current rule. Tony 16:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The one on blockquotes? If so, fine - the suggestion was made to meet your objection. The insistence on logical quotation? Others do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

And others don't, too. Tony 02:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I find it not only illogical but unaesthetic e.g. to treat commas as part of book titles, thus: "The Wind in the Willows," "Alice in Wonderland," "Tarzan of the Apes," and "The Secret Garden." Lima 08:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed; it's totally absurd. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• (Outdent) This has been the subject of substantial debate on a number of occasions, the last one only a month or two ago. Please research those debates and give enough time for people here to notice this section and respond before you plunge in unilaterally to change the policy text. Manderson, you never learn, do you. It's not that your expertise is not respected or that we believe you have nothing to offer: it's a matter of complying with the consensus-generating culture on WP. In many cases, you change policy unilaterally and prematurely in a controversial way; in some cases, you introduce sloppy language to the policy text. Please cooperate and collaborate, as you've been asked to do on more than one occasion. I note that this behaviour was at issue in your RfA last ... January, was it? Tony 08:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

And this is emphatically not a UK vs. US English issue. Interior punctuation is already on its way out in the US, and all technical publications in the US use logical quoting. It is called logical quoting for a reason: Interior punctuation adds factual errors, including misquotation, the inclusion of characters that do not belong in the literal string being quoted (very, very serious issue for things like computer code), implying that a statement may be partially quoted when it was not, etc., etc. The punctuation goes on the inside only if it was part of the original. Wikipedia is not a magazine or newspaper, it is a precise publication that cannot afford to use irrational journalistic style preferences that are based on 1700s typesetting needs, just because they happen to still be traditionally preferred by imprecise publications in one country. Undisclaimer: I am an American, so I have no UK bias in this matter whatsoever. This as a trawl through the archives shows that this issue has been hashed over more times that anyone would bother counting, I'm taking the liberty of marking this topic "Resolved". — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to be so emphatic. The risk of misquotation is, as far as I can tell, almost completely hypothetical, unless "misquotation" is stretched to the farthest limits of interpretation. As far as I can tell there is no strong argument either way, which is why both continue to exist. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't emphatic about that, I was emphatic about it not being a Yankeeland vs. Limeyland issue, which the proponent of the change has made it out to be. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a slippery slope, misquotation. Treat a final comma as part of the quotation and it's easier to start tampering, unnoticed, with other aspects within the quote marks. Same for linking within a quote. Tony 01:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't see how anyone can misquote someone because of the use of punctuation. Also, SMcCandlish states "Wikipedia is not a magazine or newspaper, it is a precise publication that cannot afford to use irrational journalistic style preferences that are based on 1700s typesetting needs"; however, popular encyclopedias such as Encarta and Britannica also use this punctuation, so it is not only "journalistic style." Why are American oriented Wikipedia articles not following the same punctuation as American encyclopedias? Wikipedia says to use American English for American oriented articles and I believe we should do that. This guideline fails to address this issue and makes articles seem less encyclopedic by using style guidelines in contrary to the Chicago MOS and other encyclopedias. Some users seem determined not to address this issue, even stating this issues has been "resolved by consensus," when not all parties agree. Just to remind editors, "consensus" is "a neutral point of view which everybody can agree upon." (WP:CON) —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 05:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, no. That's a blantant misquote. The actual passage is: "Where there are disagreements, they are resolved through polite discussion and negotiation on talk pages in an attempt to develop a neutral point of view" which everybody can agree upon." (Emphasis added.) Please read WP:CONSENSUS more deeply, as well as quote it more accurately. 100% unanimity is not required for there to be consensus, otherwise virtually every single decision every made or needing to be made on Wikipedia could be undone or fillibustered by lone trolls. Please also try to be less literal. When I referred to journalist style, I clearly did not really mean "journalists, all journalists and no one but journalists". To clarify: Britannica like the local newspaper is written for a mass-market audience, almost entirely American, and follows vernacular American mass-market style "rules". Wikipedia's aim is to greatly exceed works like Britannica in every relevant respect. While WP is intended to be useful to a mass-market audience, we collectively hold ourselves to higher standards such that WP will be of use to everyone from a head of state to a Nobel laureate as well. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

While I can't deny that the majority of American publications do use the "illogical" style (and while I think the point about "misquotation" is a bit hyperbolic), I think I'm one of quite a large fraction of Americans who prefer the "logical" style. Almost anyone who is or has been a programmer will prefer this style, I think, and that's a big chunk of American Wikipedians right there. I don't know if we need rigid prescription in the MOS, but I think the rough de facto consensus is for the "logical" style, and I hope it continues to be so. (It's a double-edged sword, though -- the rough de facto consensus also seems to be for the spelling aluminium, which makes my skin crawl.) --Trovatore 07:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

FYI, the "aluminium" spelling is preferred here because that is the spelling that has been adopted by international science journals, international standards bodies, etc. As with logical quoting, it is a consistency and standards matter, not a US vs. UK English matter. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I have a deep antipathy to "international standards bodies" in general. But it should be noted that even IUPAC (one of the ones I find most offensive -- I mean, "ethene"? Please) was forced to modify its position on "aluminum"/"aluminium", admitting they were acceptable variants. --Trovatore 17:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Christopher—no, WP doesn't say to use American English; it's American spelling that must be used for US-related articles, and for non-country-related articles that were started in AmEng. Other aspects of AmEng are fine, unless proscribed by MOS. In any case, internal punctuation cuts across the varieties: everyone uses it for direct quotations in fictional prose; and, as pointed out above, many Americans don't favour it elsewhere. WP's decision is largely swayed by its principle of not touching quotations, rather than internecine rivalry. Tony 10:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is plainly not resolved; the majority here clearly prefers to permit both, as is our general practice; the late tag, with its disruptive denial that WP:Consensus can change is mistaken. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I see absolutely no consensus to change the existing long-standing policy, which is derived from WP's overarching policy on leavning quoted material untouched. Tony 01:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I see a consensus of everybody but Tony. A majority of this discussion disputes this; so you know what I will have to do. I also see no coherent argument against mentioning that many editors do not use logical punctuation; it is, after all, true. Since this is fundamentally all I want, I'll go as strong as normally for now, and see what happens in three months. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Not even. The thing is that most of us simply don't bother to respond to this tired old topic any longer. Every 4-8 months someone who just loves the wildly irrational and dying out "American system" rekindles some variant of this thread, and it gets very eye-roll and yawn inducing. The issue was settled long, long ago, and no one objects other than 2-4 people who come and complain about it periodically at WP:MOS. I think that's quite remarkable (and quite remarkably clear that there is absolutely, positively no consensus to change something that basic or we'd be seeing dozens of complainants per week). Making a change like that would have utterly awful results, with people editwarring constantly over what is or isn't "right", more US vs. UK English fights, innumerable instances of user confusion over whether a quoted passage actually did or did not contain the punctuation we say it did, code samples wrecked by editors insisting that punctuation must go inside, etc., etc., etc. Having one rule and sticking to it avoids all of that mess, at no cost other than minor annoyance of some prescriptive grammarians who think that their archaic regional punctuation variant is "correct" despite all the problems it leads to. WP does not have to follow the CMS. While it is pretty good, it has its flaws, and it is hardly the only style guide on the planet, just probably the most long-winded one. As with any prescriptive (i.e. faith and righteous belief) work about something that can really only be understood descriptively (i.e. science), like language, following any style guide blindly will lead one off a cliff eventually. This periodic rancor over wanting "this," instead of "this", for no explicable reason other than "I like it", and in the face of actually rational reasons to absolutely not go there, really gets to be tedious. The funny thing is, the only reason (some but by no means all) Americans use "this," is because it was a typesetting convention from the 1700s, intended to protect "." and "," (the smallest and most fragile pieces of type - " is twice as thick). That's the complete and full extent of the "logic" behind inside puctuation in quotations by default. Logical quotation is called that for very good reasons. PS: The perrenial argument that this is just UK imperialism over US English is nonsense because the convention really only exists in the US in mainstream journalism (which is very traditionalist and conservative in its adoption of language change) and in school rooms run by US-centric prescriptivists. If you turn in a university term paper or thesis, in any dept. other than English or some other hidebound liberal artsy course, with interior quoting you'll get it back with red all over it. The practice has been utterly unacceptable in ever discipline that requires accuracy and precision, for many years now (i.e. all disciplines but liberal artsy stuff like Survey of Modern Irish Literature or Topics in German Philosophers). So, one and all, please stop kicking this tired old dog. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 04:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
        • My apologies for overlooking SMcCandlish's arguments; are they in this section, as well as the next [this section was moved down; the original follow-up is higher on this page]? I do not happen to use "aesthetic punctuation" myself, but I do not believe McCandlish's last claim; I was not a liberal arts major, and I did use it as an undergraduate. Nevertheless, I will have to {{dispute}} the omission of the fact of the existence of two systems; I am willing let others recommend the use of one of them fairly strongly, but suppression of fact is regrettable. (And the existence of a recurrent protest is evidence that the statement that Wikipedia only uses one method is simply false; recurrent protests ignored by regulars are one of the hallmarks of bad process.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"The omission of the fact"? Huh? It is not the job of the MoS to act as a descriptive linguistics treatise on usage variances around the world. If we "{{dispute}}d" every such "omission" there would be thousands of dispute tags all through the MoS; more dispute tags than actual content. The MoS is here to make specific recommendations about what to do in Wikipedia for our readers' benefit, not list every known usage in the world. There is no "suppression"; please, enough with the histrionic hyperbole. Cf. Godwin's Law before tossing out "suppression" or similar terms that imply fascistic regimes, please. The recurrent "protest" about this is largely because some people don't read archives and/or are in denial that for years this has been a settled issue, and doesn't indicate anything other than that some people get bent out of shape about things that really shouldn't bother them so much. There is no "statement that Wikipedia" or Wikipedians as a group for that matter "only uses one method", so there is no falsehood. The MoS recommends, as a guideline, one method. This is a good thing. It's called consistency. That some Wikipedians will ignore this recommendation is of no concern. There is no recommendation in any guideline (or even rule in any policy) here that is not ignored by some editors. So what? Other editors won't ignore it and (like me) will bring text into conformity with MoS when encountering material that isn't. Hardly a big deal. And certainly does not militate against a strong recommendation here. The "some people will ignore it" reasoning doesn't mean anything. Lastly, as this sprawling now-merged metathread indicates, the "protests" are hardly being ignored, so your comparison to bad process if off-base. Just because you are not getting your way does not mean that something isn't working right. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There are two rational solutions to the question of quoting computer code. One is to recommend logical punctuation for those articles, which would make sense; I would support this, as always. The other is not to use quotation marks at all, and always use blockquotes, preferably indented to format as typescript; which would avoid the possibility of quotation marks being read as code. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Have to strongly disagree on four grounds 1) This would simply lead to disputes about whether a particular article is technical/scientific/whatever "enough". 2) It will do nothing whatsoever to dissuade well-meaning (mostly-)American editors from changing it to so-called aesthetic punctuation anyway, simply because it is what they are used to. While editors more aware of the situation at that article could revert this ( if they happened to be watching, in too many cases no one aware enough of either the MoS's details, the nature of the article and its content, or both, would be watching, and the change would go in silently and just stay there, outright wrong, for an indefinite period of time. 3) Blockquoting is for large passages; it would be completely inappropriate to use it for shorter code examples (see my "rm" example from the other day). 4) This doesn't just affect computer code, but any and all use of quotation marks in which accurancy, lack of ambiguity, and precision are required.

In an era where protecting the tiny . and , metal type pieces from damage by hiding them inside the twice-as-large-and-robust " character, is no longer an issue, quotation-interior punctuation just for the heck of it is downright irrational. I can't think of anything more daft-looking than things like 'Jim Smith's third Top-40 single, "Yo Mama's Kitchen," was...' It's just ridiculous. (NB: Before this heats up again, please note that I'm not opining that defending this usage is irrational or ridiculous; I don't agree with you, but I'm not calling you names. I'm labeling the practice as illogical and farcical). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Consensus, or not, for changing the policy on "logical" punctuation in quotations

Anderson and some new ring-in with a red-linked user-page have been busy making unilateral changes to the policy without, to my eyes, a proper assessment of consensus on this page. In addition, the changes they have made were inconsistent with the point below: "Punctuation marks are placed inside the quote marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation (this system is referred to as logical quotation)."

Unilateral is a falsehood. Tony really should have waited until #Punctuation and quotation marks was archived before so decribing it; he might even have convinced me to check my memory. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I call for a debate here on whether the policy should be changed, before jumping in and changing the text. Personally, I'm not in favour of the change, since the logical format is consistent with WP's overarching policy on leaving directly quoted material untouched. I have a number of objections to the wording, and I'm very uneasy about the citing of other style manuals in the body of the MOS. Tony 03:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"I'm not in favour of the change" << irony intended? :) — xDanielx ^T/_C 10:52, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I support their change. The position of the marks is not a question of leaving the original quotation untouched, but a mere typographical convention. I think either rule is acceptable, and that the rule should be not to change whatever is in WP, but perhaps to try for consistency within an article. Tony is unduly prescriptive. The Chicago manual remains the basis of our MOS, and is appropriately quoted. DGG (talk) 04:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no. It is a mere typographical convention in the case of (some but not all) Americans' preference for putting some but not all punctuation inside the quotation marks. I.e., insisting on it is making a mountain out of a molehill. The opposite, however, is not true. There are strongly defensible reasons (I've given a least 5 of them up above) to stick with logical quotation, and one of them is in fact quoting accurately. You don't seem to care about accurate quotations, but many of us do. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Then we should mention those reasons; that may actually persuade someone to try the logical method. But MOS is not the place to impose something because a handful of our editors have decided it's "better". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That seems rather hyperbolic. The MoS is precisely the place that an overall consensus recommends particular style usages, and it is inevitable that some editors will feel some of them to be "impositions". That's just the way of the world. You can't make everyone happy all the time, and it is not MoS's job to even try. MoS's job is to recommend style limits and best practices that help make the encyclopedia useful and reliable. And that's pretty much it. "I like it" reasoning simply doesn't play any legitimate role at all, pro or con. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Where on earth did you dredge up that idea that Chicago is the basis of WP's MOS? Hello, it's not an American project, but international. Please point to some evidence. Tony 04:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm even an American, and I find numerous things in CMS that are just plain off the wall; despite it being in the 15th ed., there are all sorts of irrational inconsistencies and just plain logicfarts in there, "conventions" that even most Americans abandoned 2 generations ago, curiously unAmerican Briticisms here and there, etc., etc. Like Wikipedia itself, the CMS is very palimpsestuous. And it's hardly the only style guide out there, much less a particularly authoritative one. It is intended for journalism and English majors, and was not written with an eye to precision, accuracy and avoiding ambiguity. And I can't think of anything more in need of those qualities than an encyclopedia, except maybe things like nuclear reactor specs or space shuttle operating manuals. PS: I haven't found it particularly fruitful quoting he CMS myself. I'd estimate that for every 10 times I do that I get what I want here maybe once if I'm lucky. Caveat prescriptor. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There's absolutely no consensus for such a radical alteration (see long explanation in same basic topic farther up the page of just a handful of the bad things that would happen if this change were made). A tiny handful of loud but incessant complainants who cannot offer a more logical front than "I like it", "it's what I'm used to", "some prescriptive book I like better than the MoS says so" or "I haven't thought of any potential fallout, so there must be no potential fallout", do not magically make a new consensus for undoing something that has had very broad consensus for years. This is one of our most important guidelines, and making incautious changes to it (aside from being likely to get immediately reverted) stands a good chance of wreaking a lot of havoc, because every article in Wikipedia looks to this document and its subpages for guidance. I'm not on a high horse here either. There are lots of things I would change in MoS to suit my personal preferences (I've even, slowly, gotten a few minor but substantive changes), but oh well, too bad. The vast bulk of the changes I've proposed (or in my wikiyouth just gone and boldly made here) have been rejected, and rejected more than once. This guideline and its child guidelines are very, very resistant to willy-nilly changes, with good reason. If you find yourself getting frustrated that you are not getting your way, just drop it for a while and go do something else. It works (I know from exerience; after a week you'll hardly even remember why you spent so much time arguing with people in MOS instead of working on articles you care about, nuking vandals, or whatever floats your wikiboat.) PS: Some (allegedly) random anon noob joining the fray hardly lends much credence to the "new consensus" idea. When I see Centrx, SlimVirgin, Radiant, Gracenotes, and 20 other hardcore, long-term major contributors all saying "we should change this", I might believe change was in the air, but the fact of the matter is that no one wants this change but a small handful. Now. And 6 month ago. And last year. And the year before that. The numbers never increase, and curiously those who felt strongly about it 18 months ago don't rejoin the debate (which suggests to me that they realize over time the benefits of logical quoting once they get used to it and stop seeing it as "wrong"). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 04:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC) PS: And, yeah, we don't cite other style manuals in the text of the MOS. MOS is not an article. It is a slowly-built-by-consensus set of community decisions about how to best write the encyclopedia (that means for the end user's benefit, not our own personal convenience or pecadilloes. Logical quotation is a major part of that user-helpfulness, in its elimination of doubts and ambiguities as to the reliability of the quoted passage's accuracy, reliability of code or other technical data's to-the-last-character correctness, inter-article consistency, etc., etc. This is nothing at all like "colour" vs. "color", which is parseable by any English speaker in either spelling (UK vs. US spelling truly is just a harmless preference matter, unlike quotation punctuation.)— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Oy Vey! Why can't you people decide one way or or the other? Logical format makes more sense to me but I, and most editors probably, would be happy to learn and follow any punctuation convention as long as it's clearly described. It would be a big help if it's project-wide and not just article by article. Sometimes choosing the red one or the blue one doesn't need consensus, it just needs a decision. Why not flip a coin or something? Wikidemo 05:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, we already did long ago. This is all just noise. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Totally in agreement with Tony and SMcCandlish on this one (see excellent points made in sections further up too). In addition to the "keep the quote untouched" argument, I'd like to add a point that makes Wikipedia special in this regard. Not all editors have access to the source. An editor should be able to rephrase a sentence containing a quote without fear that they are changing the quote by adding or removing punctuation. The logical style is the only one that maintains that property. Going for a mixed per-article style is even worse than a wholesale change. Wikidemo—flipping a coin to radically change the quotation style of a project with 2 million articles isn't wise. Colin°^Talk 08:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I also oppose the change. "Logical" quotations make more sense on every, well, logical basis. Assured accuracy in quotations seems vital in such a work as an encyclopedia. SamBC(talk) 10:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with Sambc - the "logical" style is just more, well, uh logical. Seems the most sensible way. WLD^talk|edits 10:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

For all the reasons given, I support the logical style. Although fine typography sometimes calls for deviations, neither Wikipedia nor any other HTML document can be fine typography, lacking control of typeface (it is only a suggestion), page size, physical and optical margins, hyphenation, microspacing, and all the other things that typographers do to fully optimize text on paper.--Curtis Clark 13:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The denial of the fact that are in fact two accepted styles is disingenuous and dishonest; as I have said elsewhere, I use "logical punctuation" myself, but it is a relative novelty; our article suggests that Fowler invented it, and we may well be right. I have no objection to recommending it; although I think it would be one of our more pointless recommendations. Many Americans have this drilled into them, and they are unlikely to change at a paragraph here. This has all the disadvantages of the Anglo-American wars, and none of the advantages.

As for CMS, Tony should really try reading this page occasionally: it's the first and most prominent source mentioned: The Chicago Manual of Style and Fowler’s Modern English Usage are well-known style guides;... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh? The MoS making a specific recommendation for specific reasons is not "denial of the fact" that there are other possible recommendations we are not making! Sheesh. That's like saying that a MoS recommendation for formal language is a "denial" that a lot of my fellow New Mexicans like to use "ain't" a lot. Please. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

And does SMcCandlish realize that he bit a newbie before he was even welcomed? ) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Honestly hadn't noticed (had too many windows open, too much forking of attention). But really, noobs do not edit policy, generally. The odds of that being a real noob are near-zero; it's just someone who's got a new/secondary account in all likelihood. All that said, I do not feel 100% obligated to leave a Welcome template before warning against disruptive behavior. I usually do, often even with IP addresses, but there is no policy that this must be done. A small "nip" that is short of a full-on "bite" is often a Good Thing in online communities, inspiring people to lurk and learn before being overly bold. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the MoS the place to document usage outside Wikipedia? Anyone interested in the fact that another system exists can follow the links to appropriate articles. Aren't they the place for such documentation? I thought the MoS was a place to prescribe usage here not describe usage elsewhere.

As far as I can see the use of logical quoting has a heap of advantages these have been described at length above.

CMS may be mentioned but surely we're writing our own MoS based on concensus here. Jɪmp 17:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, actually; it's why we begin by citing other style guides in the first place. MOS should describe English; not, as Tony repeatedly proposed, reinvent it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That is not at all what MoS is for; it is to recommend best practices within Wikipedia for Wikipedian (i.e. encyclopedic) purposes (and while this concept relates to observed, described general usage out in the world, the two are not 1:1 identical). You appear to be confusing an internal Wikipedia document with a generally applicable style manual. Get your namespaces straight. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

We are discussing the following statement:

Most Americans and Canadians, and some Australian [13] and British publications (for example, The Guardian[14]), place periods and commas inside quotation marks; they place colons and semi-colons, question marks, and exclamation points outside, unless they are part of the material quoted. This is the system the Chicago Manual of Style recommends (§6.8f.); it is sometimes referred to as "aesthetic style." Be consistent, whichever system is used.

I do not insist on the citation of CMS, which is a relic of an old note. The CMS does in fact permit the logical style but warns against it as requiring extraordinary precision; frankly, this is a problem with it: Wikipedians are not, on average, careful. I would agree to a compromise which introduces this by sayign that Wikipedia normally uses, and recommends the logical style. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The MOS does not "cite" CMS or Fowler as a "prominent source", as PMAnderson claims (while simultaneously attacking Tony). They are merely mentioned as "well-known style guides" and noted to be among the "reliable guides" one may wish to consult "if this page does not specify a preferred usage". As other have said, detailed commentary on external styles is a distraction to this MOS page, which should focus on WP's in-house style. There are not "two accepted styles" on Wikipedia. There has only been one style, which was established when, in August 2002, User:Ortolan88 kicked off this MOS with the edit summary, "Beginning "A Manual of Style", copy-editing, consistency and markup fiends please all jump in at once." It would be hard to find a more stable guideline on Wikipedia. Colin°^Talk 18:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

if this page is indeed a place for reinventing English to the whims of a handful, then it is an essay. It is stable because it is guarded by revert warriors, and because most competent editors ignore it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

. It's my experience that the MoS is heavily relied upon by most serious editors. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary defines "whim" as "A sudden or capricious idea; a fancy." or an "Arbitrary thought or impulse". One of these "whims", as you call them, has remained on wiki for five years. I'd say that's pretty firmly established by consensus. Colin°^Talk 18:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

... most competent editors ignore it ... Hmmm. Raul doesn't ignore the Manual of Style; what does that make him? If the goal here is to destabilize long-standing guidelines enough that we all begin to ignore it, that's another matter. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Nice toad-eating, Sandy; but it makes Raul an exception. No, the goal is to make the MOS a practical manual, describing the actual consensus of Wikipedian practice, much broader than this talk page; to have it a less useful tool for the disruptive; and to keep it from saying anything actually silly, like the proposal to require Socrates's, further up on this talk page. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so you mean all the rest of us (the majority here) who also pay attention to the Manual of Style are also incompetent exceptions, along with Raul? Cool beans. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it means that this discussion has a dozen participants; Wikipedia has thousands of competent editors, Raul among them. Most of those thousands ignore this page; Raul doesn't. Do you have anything more useful to say than inventing personal attacks, again? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:03, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Again: . I see no evidence whatsoever that "most competent editors ignore the MOS". If this were true, none of us, on either side, would be bothering. I believe your wiggly insult is basically a handwave. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't wear the shoe if it doesn't fit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Altering your comments after my reply, hmmmm. Thanks for the useful link :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I suppose making a great pother out of an edit conflict is more useful than your previous remark; but do let us know when you find something substantive to say. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

An edit conflict nine minutes later; Bishonen and I have twice been involved in edit conflicts on edits that occurred simultaneously but weren't caught by Wiki software. We must do something about Wiki's software if we're getting 9-minute lags now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It took me some time to make the edit - I had a link to find; and more time to fix the conflict. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I accept that; but when another editor has already responded, nine minutes later, you might consider making a new post rather than altering your prior post. SandyGeorgia(Talk) 20:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I usually do; but not after searching for the link, and fighting the ec. If I fiddled further, I would probably have gotten another ec. In any case, I didn't alter the edit you were talking about.Septentrionalis PMAnderson

Matters of style like this that are solely syntax, format, and other language mechanics do have to follow a "winner takes all" approach, and more than most other policy/guideline issues ought to be decided centrally among those who know and care about the issue rather than a mere description of current practice among editors. Leaving it up to editors to make an article-by-article choice is no good; we need to go one way or another, and it looks like the "logical" quotation style has the upper hand here. We can talk about this a while longer to see if American style gets a consensus but if not we should leave the page as-is and remove the disputed tag because a editors opposing a decision already reached is not a valid dispute.Wikidemo 19:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No, several editors (see above section) agreed to change this; and several do now dispute this position. I don't see why there has to be a winner-takes-all position. Learn to leave articles alone.. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed; the destabilization of this page by a minority viewpoint is achieving a self-fulfilling prophecy as far as the usefulness of this page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Bosh. These are the changes in the last month and a half; most of them are small, and none interfere with the use of the page. There are two large additions, the one with horilka and the one about citation template. Neither appears to have been discussed; and neither is mine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• This is a demonstration of what I am talking about. No one has proposed mandating aesthetic punctuation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • What do you mean by "Learn to leave things alone."? Do you mean things like five-year-old-established-by-consensus-guidelines? Consensus can change of course, but it will take more than two or three editors to achieve that here. You have been repeatedly asked to establish consensus prior to significantly changing the guidelines. Your own admission that you don't use "aesthetic style" makes me think you are merely trying to make a POINT. Colin°^Talk 21:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't use British English either; but I oppose changing colour. Either system works, and this guideline should be whatever will make the articles, which are what matters, work better. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't confuse avoiding US/UK conflict when there is no logical difference, and demanding that regional (and non-universal within that region!) colloquial variation be encouraged when it potentially introduces factual errors, ambiguities, uncertainty, etc. Two different monkeys. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

"Logical" punctuation has a much more serious risk of introducing false commas (if that matters); this is one reason why aesthetic punctuation has been retained, and the reason the CMS warns against logical punctuation: when a logical punctuator errs, there's no error-correction. Since the comma and quote in aesthetic punctuation are purely formal, and do not assert the condition of the original, occasional slips don't matter, and can be easily fixed. But if a logical punctatuator ever says ," when she means ", there is a positive error, and no way to catch it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a very trivial "risk"! "If that matters" = false, generally, and non-problematic from a MoS/editorial perspective when rarely true. It would be perfectly appropriate to simply move or remove the comma in most cases. For example:

X said, "this is a quote, blah blah blah," and yak yak yak.

X said, "this is a quote, blah blah blah", and yak yak yak.

Let's not be silly. "No way to catch it"? Huh? Everything has to be verifiable or it is subject to deletion, remember? In cases where removal/moving would not be appropriate (e.g. "the command 'rm * .' is used to...", one would look at the cited sources to verify that the period really did belong there if uncertain. This is precisely why logical quoting needs to be advanced as the standard here instead of encouraging chaos in this matter, much less going for so-called "aesthetic" (I find it ugly as sin, myself) punctuation, which will inevitably lead many (mostly American) editors to actually change technical quotes in ways that render them FUBAR. Finally, if there were any actual "serious risk", most of the world would not be using logical quotation. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:28, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This section of the MOS was tagged as disputed. Between then and now, this talk page has received no additional support of the "allow both styles, but be consistent within an article" guideline. The disputed tag was then cleared, along with modifications to the guideline that do not have consensus approval. It appears this MOS is only disputed while the text does not meet with PMAnderson's personal approval. I've reverted back to the consensus version. Colin°^Talk 23:39, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear! — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, hear, hear! And hear, hear this: "this guideline should be whatever will make the articles, which are what matters, work better." No, it's simply not true that "Either system works," What some are labelling aethetic punctuation (beauty is in the eye of the beholder and this looks like a misnomer to me) introduces ambiguity: it does not work. If the guideline should be whatever makes articles work better, then it should remain as it has been for the past five years. Nor is this the place to document usage outside of Wikipedia. Certianly our guidlines should be constructed with such usage in mind but they aren't simply reflexions of it. Nor is our MoS simply a regurgitation of other style guides—sure let's consider what they have to say but we're writing our MoS. There are other considerations which go into it, like consensus and this is pretty clearly against American punctuation. Jɪmp 07:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

And it's not American punctuation. I keep stressing this because some people would like to make this look like a US vs. UK English pissing match, which it emphatically is not. Internal punctuation is an old typesetting convention from the 1700s. It is preferred by most non-technical US and Canadian, and some British, etc., publications and styleguides; it has been rejected completely in scientific, technical and other writing in which precision, accuracy and lack of ambiguity are important (which is the case with an encyclopedia, whether Britannica editors acknowledge that or not); and it is not favored strongly even in mass-market publications much of anywhere outside of North America. The "Americanness" of it is entirely incidental, really, and a recurrent red herring here, other than inasmuch as it demonstrates that it is simply a colloquial preference that doesn't have a logic/clarity/specificity basis behind it that can compete with the basis behind logical quotation. That's pretty much the end of the matter right there. There simply isn't a defensible rationale for the proposed change. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 08:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

A salient quote from Wikipedia:Consensus:

“ "Asking the other parent"

It is very easy to create the appearance of a changing consensus simply by asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people will discuss the issue. This, however, is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Wikipedia works. Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day. It is based on a system of good reasons. Attempts to change consensus must be based on a clear engagement with the reasons behind the current consensus...

A good sign that you have not demonstrated a change in consensus, so much as a change in the people showing up, is if few or none of the people involved in the previous discussion show up for the new one. In this situation you may find that any changes you make to the article are quickly reverted by people outside the new talk page discussion. Do not be tempted to edit war but instead post comments on the talk page encouraging others to participate in the new discussion.

”

My, doesn't that sound familiar? Everything just described is precisely what has been happening here, including the periodic "shopping" for a new more and sympathetic batch of MoS editors, and stubborn refusal to acknowledge the reasons behind the extant consensus. Concensus can change but it doesn't do so willy-nilly or because of tenanacity and argumentativeness. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 10:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, what this sounds like is one of the hallmarks of bad process:"Outsiders frequently complain of exclusionary process or ill treatment by regulars in the process; regulars are dismissive of these concerns." If this issue comes up every four months, and is routinely dismissed, it's a sign that real concerns, of many independent editors, are not being addressed. A compromise is in order; a single sentence will satisfy me, and may satisfy others. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't for the life of me understand what that quote has to do with an "issue comes up every four months". Complaints about "exclusionary process or ill treatment" are quite different from repeatedly raising an issue. Please keep this separate and don't muddy the waters. That this issue recurs says little about whether it is currently wrong. Most of WP's policies are frequently questioned (page protection, anonymous users) but the consensus remains against change and those pages are not permanently tagged as disputed. Colin°^Talk 08:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, it isn't "routinely dismissed", but debated at great length; the entire point PMAnderson/Septentrionalis is trying to make here is a form of straw man fallacy. It's really easy to bash a scarecrow that represents an imagined censorious oligarchic hegemony conspiring to keep one person out of the limelight, and quite another to actually engage in a constructive discourse with fellow editors collaborating to make and maintain a useful style guideline for Wikipedia. The latter takes some actual effort. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

PS: Having used {{Disputedtag}} myself, when left no other apparent choice, I'd be hypocritical if I got upset over PMAnderson using it. I think it is a constructive template when used properly, since it garners attention to a debate and speeds up consensus-building. Agree with Colin that it's not something that becomes a permanent fixture. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Forgive me for not wading through the entire discussion above and elsewhere, because I want to make one simple observation. I think the usefulness of logical quoting depends on the context. In cases where commas make a big difference, such as semantics or computer programming, logical quotes are a must. In other cases, such as when quoting romanized translations of Lao Tzu's Tao te Ching, logical quotes are less useful. The decision to use or not use logical quotes should rest with the editors who introduce content into articles, not with a MOS that lays down a preference for everyone. I see some cases where logical quotes would look out of place and disgusting, and I also see examples where authors sensibly use logical quotes to eliminate equivocation (Saul Kripke comes to mind). Perhaps we should simply specify the benefits and drawbacks of both the styles and say that editors will have to agree on individual cases. Besides, if editors are debating over a particular use of logical/nonlogical quotes, they are paying greater attention to detail than the majority of editors at Wikipedia! —Kanodin 17:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

One of the symptoms of not wading through this lengthy morass is that you missed this already being addressed. :-) The problem with not being prescriptively against typesetters' quotation traditions is that some editors will change logical ones to to the typesetters' "aesthetic" ones willy-nilly, even in articles where this would have a very, very deleterious effect, and not all of these instances will be caught and reverted, leaving articles indefinitely hosed. There are plenty of places where the MoS lays down a very strongly recommendation for everyone, and this is broadly tolerated, even welcomed, because it produces predictable, stable consistency where needed. There is no such problem with things like "neighbor" vs. "neighbour" and other genuinely preferential/cultural issues that don't have an effect on the accuracy or even logical parseability of the content. As said earlies, this is not a UK vs. US English fight, for something like 5 different reasons; it has just been mistaken as one by a few people. PS: Your "would look out of place and disgusting" reaction is entirely subjective and colloquial; the vast majority of English speakers (well, readers, really) in most of the English-speaking places on the planet already have this reaction with regard to illogical quotation, and many Americans do as well. "Some won't like it" isn't a very strong argument in the face of the more objective ones advanced by proponents of leaving the logical quotation prescription in place. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Kanodin writes "the usefulness of logical quoting depends on the context." Yep, that's a fair call. "The decision to use or not use logical quotes should rest with the editors who introduce content into articles," I would disagree, there's a great advantage in having consistancy rather than allowing editors to judge for themselves. "I see some cases where logical quotes would look out of place and disgusting," I don't. It's a matter of taste, to me it's illogical quotes which look out of place and disgusting. So let's "specify the benefits and drawbacks of both the styles". I can't see a single benifit of typesetter's (illogical) quotation the drawbacks have been specified at length. The usefulness of logical quotation may vary but typesetter's quotation is never more useful. JIMp 06:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment from a previously uninvolved editor: I have read through the entire discussion, as well as parts of the achived discussions about this question, and it does appear that the consensus is, and has been for a long time, for the MoS to recommend logical quotation. SMcCandlish in particular has argued convincingly why it should remain so. Speaking as someone who does much WikiGnome-like work on articles that are nowhere close to FA-class, I have come to rely on a stable, prescriptive-where-possible Manual of Style. A manual that describes multiple ways of dealing with a style question is less useful, in my opinion. --Paul Erik 19:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

SMcCandlish, you say that the vast majority of English speakers in most of the English-speaking places on the planet already have this reaction with regard to illogical quotation, and many Americans do as well. Well, according to this page, most English speakers are Americans. So why not use (or at least allow to be used) the American style if the majority are taught it?

Agreed (with the majority opinion). It's about more than quotes; Wiki is large enough to have its own style guide that should be unambiguous about our in-house preferences. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with SandyGeorgia and the many other similar comments. PMAnderson wrote that "the goal is to make the MOS a practical manual, describing the actual consensus of Wikipedian practice...." Well, that's not my goal. If you wanted to describe actual practice, you'd note that many people continue to italicize quotations, some people can't get over their (British) habit of using single quotation marks instead of doubles, etc. The MoS is prescriptive, not descriptive. It prescribes logical style for quotation marks, " instead of ', and unitalicized quotations. Those points should not be changed. JamesMLane t c 19:44, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Paul, for taking the time to wade through this and previous discussions. I'm glad to read some confirmation that MoS is not just important (or not) to articles at FAC. I also appreciate a stable MoS and find that conforming to a house style is no big deal. Change through building consensus is vital here. Colin°^Talk 20:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering whether there's an analogous practice for parentheses to (the typesetter's punctuation.) Tony 06:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I just saw this discussion for the first time tonight, after I have modified a number of pages to punctuate as advocated in Chicago Manual of Style. This is how I learned to punctuate in school, and I never even bothered to check Wikipedia for a policy. I'm sure many others were also taught this way and use "illogical style" quotation marks without realizing it is against Wikipedia style guidelines (for example, I just found this user talk page). I, for one, think that Wikipedia should allow the Chicago style. It isn't just opinion, it is an accepted way of writing. TK421 06:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that over the last few months, I have edited a number of pages to make them follow CMOS. Some of these pages were even featured articles (such as Harry S. Truman). In looking over them, most of my edits still stand. Is this not a form of consensus? This suggests to me that many others find the Chicago style acceptable, and it should be incorporated as an acceptable style in Wikipedia. TK421 07:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

It most certainly does not represent consensus, and you should desist immediately from this practice. In fact, you should go back and revert the damage that you've done. Tony (talk) 09:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Relax. I didn't even know about this style guide when I made those changes, and I won't make any more unless I see a change in policy. As far as representing "a form of consensus", look at the flow chart on Wikipedia:Consensus. Make an edit - Wait - Was the article edited further? - No - New consensus. Consensus does not only arise from discussions like this, but from actual practice. My point that some were featured articles indicates that these were not obscure articles, either. I think it is a compelling argument. TK421 17:41, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Then that represents a local consensus that no-one who edits that article objects. However, editing to conform to the CMOS does not have wikipedia-wide consensus, and the fact that your edits happened to make text conform to CMOS, and had local consensus, doesn't mean that there's even local consensus to follow CMOS generally. We explicitly don't follow CMOS, and that has been established to have general consensus. That consensus can change, but there's been no demonstration of that. Limited objections don't mean that consensus is no longer valid. SamBC(talk) 20:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I do think that MOS could/should be clearer: its examples are easily misunderstood. I see many well-informed editors believing that it's a purely mechanical function of whether quoted text ended with a [."] or not. If clearly explained, logical punctuation is easy to use and a better explanation would remove many minor arguments. --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 11:47, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Punctuation inside or outside this quote?

This article (Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style) contains the following example in the Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations section:

For example, the following quotation: “She disputed his statement that ‘Voltaire never said “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” ’ ”.

I realize this is trivial, but the subsequent Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_marks section states that punctuation should go inside quotes when it's part of the quotation. So it seems to me that period in the example should be moved to right after the final word, it. I'm not sure enough to make the change, so I'm asking about it here. -Agyle 17:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a characteristic example of the difficulties of "logical" quotation: which of the sources involved here do we follow: His statement, her quotation and denial of it, or the original quote which attributed it to Voltaire? All three of them may punctuate differently. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Anderson, your very own Fowler says to avoid double periods, doesn't he? You have to choose, and WP has chosen the outside position. Tony 02:37, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not a "characterisitic example" of anything other than that human beings make typographical errors (and this is clearly a typo). I fixed it in the projectpage text. Also fixed the entire passage, as it referred to being "an exception to the previous rule", but the previous rules no longer have anything to do with that segment, due (apparently) to many changes over time but no one noticing that previous material there had a later reference to it. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

There are never consecutive periods (or commas) at the end, always only one, but exclamation or question marks may add up. Therefore there are one or two questions to answer: Are periods collapsed to the final or to the first one? If it is the final one, does the sentence beginning with For example end with the colon already?

it.” ’ ”

collapse to first period

it” ’.”

collapse to final period, colon ends sentence

it” ’ ”.

collapse to final period, colon does not end sentence

All choices are reasonable, I would not choose the third one. That is just how I would see it however, without rechecking any English style guides. (I also would remove the non-breaking spaces and leave this up to font hinting.) — Christoph Päper 15:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It can't end with the colon, otherwise this would be valid English punctuation:

I like four sorts of beans: pinto, garbanzo, lima, and black

(Note no period.)

As for the larger question, I don't think it matters much between the first and third options you show (the 2nd is potentially confusing, though), when all of the nested quotations are complete sentences that ended in the original where we end them in quotation. The original (MOS) constructed example is weird, because the exterior-most quotation marks are really there just to set the material off as an example and do not provide any additional material. I might edit it to fix that problem. In real article prose, you'd have something more like Mumble mumble mumble, according to Smith, who wrote "Johnson's statement that 'yack yack yack' is blah blah blah". The period could go just inside (after last "blah"), yet would not be required to, if (and only if) Smith's statement was a complete sentence and ended with a period there in the original, and the overall passage, from "Mumble" to the end, ended after that last "blah". The period wouldn't go deep inside (after last "yack") at all, since that would leave the rest of the passage unterminated. In cases (as in the MOS example), where the quotations are ending mutually, not followed by any other material in the overall passage, there isn't any particular reason not to put it deep inside (Foo "Bar 'Baz.' "), but only if all of the relevant parts are full sentences and we know for a fact that the various quoted bits did terminate with periods in the originals where we terminate them in our quotations. But there isn't a rationale against putting it outside the quotes altogether (Foo "Bar 'Baz' ".); terminal punctuation inside when known to be part of the original is appropriate but not required in logical quotation (and would be inappropriate if we do not know that the quoted sentence originally ended where we are putting a period, so putting it outside is safest. We wouldn't use Foo "Bar 'Baz'." at all, as it does not add anything useful to do this, and is visually confusing.

It's much more difficult to talk about than it is to just do it, by the simple logic of "Did they actually say that (i.e. actually end their statement, which we are quoting, where we are ending it in our quotation)?" if you see what I mean.

I offer no opinion on the non-breaking space vs. font hinting issue. I find it much easier to read with the spacing, but the logician in me says that the spacing is an extraneous interpolation, so my left and right brain have a conflict of interest.

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

PS: The "unless we know for certain" stuff is more important than it may at first seem. If an editor is quoting Smith from Smith's book, Mumble mumble mumble, according to Smith, who wrote "Johnson has stated that 'yack yack yack'" (period as yet unplaced), and we are looking at Smith's book, and it says Johnson has stated that "yack yack yack." (note the period placement), quoting Johnson from Johnson's 1987 paper in Proceedings of the International Society for Nocturnal Underwater Basketweaving; then, our only way of knowing for certain whether Johnson's quote in Smith ended where Smith seems to indicate it did in Johnson's original, is by reading a copy of the Johnson PISNUB paper, because the only source we have at hand is Smith's book, and we don't necessarily know whether Smith uses logical quotation, or pays any attention to such matters. I.e., default to exterior punctuation when uncertain (in this case by doing a partial quote of Smith quoting Johnson, namely be declining to import Smith's terminal punctuation): Mumble mumble mumble, according to Smith, who wrote "Johnson has stated that 'yack yack yack'". (period outside). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:45, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Quotations and punctuation

After a lengthy disagreement today I would like to see a definitive example in the manual of style for the following problem:

"Satellite" was also featured on an episode of the television show Miami Vice titled "Amen...Send Money," which first aired on October 2, 1987.

IMO the comma is a part of the sentence and not a part ot the program's title. For this reason, the comma should be after the quote. Comments anyone? TinyMark 09:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It should definitely be after the quote, otherwise we have the totally absurd result of asserting that the episode title was "Amen...Send Money," rather than "Amen...Send Money", an obvious problem. NB: Miami Vice should be italicized up there (in the article; if you just didn't bother to italicize it here because that wasn't the point, I don't mean to nitpick. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

There have been wikiwars over this issue, in case you want to read through the archive. I think the outcome (or rather non-outcome) is that you can use either, but be consistent within a page. Wikidemo 10:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

There was no doubt about the outcome. Wikipedia consensus to abandon logical quotation just because a handful of people don't like it was not reached. At all. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TinyMark here. The comma is an inherent part of the logical thrust of the entire sentence. --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 11:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The example provided here is indeed wrong. WP uses logical punctuation at the end of a quotation; i.e., keep the comma/period outside the quotation unless it belongs as part of the quotation. It's clearly set out in the guidelines, isn't it? Tony (talk) 11:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If it is I couldn't find it! TinyMark 13:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It's under "Inside or outside" at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotation_marks. Tony (talk) 14:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not clearly enough explained there. Too many people are focusing on the physical presence of punctuation in the quoted element rather looking at the dynamics. Better examples would emphasise the difference between unquoted text as scene-setting and as a crucial part of the sentence's thrust, for instance, He wrote, "Brighton was dreadful." and He disagreed that "Brighton was dreadful". I suppose a simple test would be that if you can put the unquoted text in brackets without changing the meaning of the sentence the point or comma goes inside the quotes. --ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 14:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The "dynamics" of the sentence are not effected in any way in the quoted example; the comma still follows the episode title, just as intended. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if it's not clear enough (it made sense to me), but the defining point isn't how it fits into the structure, it's whether or not the source the quote is from contains the punctuation. In the unlinkely event that the official title of the episode ended with a comma, then that would be correct, but under logical punctuation the comma goes outside the quote marks simply because it's not there in the source being quoted. SamBC(talk) 14:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It's whether or not the source the quote is from contains the punctuation AND how that punctuation impacts on the sentence as a whole. The second example illustrates this but is overlooked:

Correct:	Martha asked, “Are you coming?”
	(When quoting a question, the question mark belongs inside because the quoted text itself was a question.)
Correct:	Did Martha say, “Come with me”?
	(The very quote is being questioned, so here, the question mark is correctly outside; the period in the original quote is omitted.)

--ROGER DAVIES ^TALK 15:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, you're talking about the seperate but related issue of whether to include the punctuation from the original, which I wasn't thinking to address. Perhaps the two points should be addressed seperately, but as I see it it's quite simple. The punctuation in the original, at the end of the quote, is only included if it fits the sentence structure or is integral to the meaning as quoted. Punctuation marks are only inside the quotation marks of that punctuation is present in the material being quoted. Between the two, I think that tells you everything. SamBC(talk) 16:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Quotation_mark#Punctuation states that this is (another) British vs. American English discrepancy. Apparently the punctuation is always inside the quotes in American English. I suppose it will be a case of first come, first served! What annoys me is the "my way or the higheay" attitude some people have. "That's the way I learnt it and that's the only way to do it." Maybe I have no tolerance, but its only towards people with zero tolerance ;-) TinyMark 16:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. The discussion here recently about logical vs aesthetic punctuation has demonstrated that that isn't true in practice - many americans learned and/or prefer logical punctuation, and I believe that some brits prefer aesthetic. It's complicated by the fact that, when the quotation marks represent dialogue, there should always be terminating punctuation. SamBC(talk) 16:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the Quotation mark article is simply wrong; typesetters' quotes have been abandoned in US publishing except for very general audiences who still prefer it as a "tradition"; your average American novel and newspaper still use it, but it is virtually unknown in technical and scientific writing any longer. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if I believed this claim, so what? We should be writing American for the general reader, not for the followers of "technical and scientific writing." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I see this is back, much sooner than I predicted. Can we, this time, deal with the matter soberly, and admit that there are two systems; both are used; and the important thing is to be consistent within an article? Then we can stop discussing this every month. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are two systems and both are used, however the use of typesetter's punctuation here goes against policy. Change policy so we can stop discussing this every month? Such a change would only turn the heat up. It's not really "back" though, this time it's a call for further examples not for change in policy. What is the important thing, however? Is it to be consistent within an article ... or is it more important not to change a quotation willy-nilly just to fit one's own idea of æsthetics? Jɪmp 22:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Not policy; just the whim of this guideline. Please note that insisting on logical punctuation when taking a quotation from a source that uses aesthetic punctuation will often involve changing the quotation; and quite often involve guesswork as to how the source's source was punctuated. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, no, because you punctuate exactly how your source punctuates, so quotes within the quote get left alone. SamBC(talk) 23:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. A whim—"a sudden desire or idea, especially one that cannot be reasonably explained" says one dictionary. It's hardly sudden & has been explained in minute and very reasonable detail. Jɪmp 23:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Stop trying to muddy the waters, Anderson: you know very well that if illogical punctuation (there's nothing aesthetic about it) is used in a quote within a quote here, it's not tampered with. That's the point behind WP's insistence on logical quotation in the first place: don't tamper with quoted material. This is quite apart from and in addition to the analogy with brackets (where no one would put the dot inside.) Tony (talk) 00:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

How curious. In an article now at FAC, the original source says:

At one point during Tool's set, Keenan acknowledged his debt to the long-running art rockers: "For me, being on stage with King Crimson is like Lenny Kravitz playing with Led Zeppelin, or Britney Spears onstage with Debbie Gibson."

Our article used the quoted sentence, precisely as given, including the quotation marks. A certain editor objected to this, as not being logical punctuation. That would seem to me to depend on whether Keenan, in the original interview, ended a sentence after Gibson or not; it is one of the difficulties of logical punctuation that we cannot be sure from the evidence at hand. But we can postpone discussing this further until Tony manages to agree with himself exactly what logical punctuation is. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Not difficult at all. If WP quoted the entire passage you just did, it would remain unchanged. If it quoted only Keenan (which is the case here; I just looked at the diff and compared it to what you quoted above), it would end with the period outside the punctuation, since WP has no basis on which to know whether the original source quoted Keenan entirely or in truncated form. I think you are trying to make this sound difficult because that suits your argument, but really, how hard do you think anyone else is going to find this? It's trivially simple, just like whether to put the period inside or ouside a parenthetical at the end of a sentence. Why on earth is hard about asking "Do I know that this is the end of the original, primary-source sentence? If no, outside, if yes, inside." Compare "Does this parenthetical form a complete sentence by itself (or end with an exclamation point, question mark or elipsis)? If no, outside, if yes, inside." — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not trivially simple; neither is determining whether a form of words forms a complete sentence. But we do the latter all the time: every time we punctuate unquoted prose. You are, however, in the name of accuracy, recommending that we change a quoted sentence from the punctuation of the source; allowing aesthetic punctuation would avoid the nedessity of thin, and the necessity of making the decision. Aesthetic punctuation is purely formal, and it has survived precisely because it makes no assertion about the original position of the comma in question. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, you just seem to be making this hard for yourself. If it were really hard, the rest of the world and plenty of Americans would not be using logical quotation, and WP would have an e-riot on its hands about this, and yet it doesn't, unless (sorry, my bad) two editors somehow marks an overwhelming trend. If the source is not reliable on a particular thing, then do not rely upon the source for that thing; that's simple and reasonable as well. There's nothing wrong with making some simple decisions; as you say, we do this every time we punctuate. I understand that you do not see the potential difference between what the primary source actually said and what the secondary source chose to report of what was said, in a manner that leave us by definition uncertain as to the primary's actual statement, or that you think the distinction is trivial if you do recognize it. Either way, you are clearly someone who has never been misquoted-by-truncation in the press. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 03:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any "disagreement" on Tony's part with himself. What I do see is you lurking like a vulture waiting for any opportunity to dredge up this debate because it is your personal pet peve and you just won't let it go. I would like to observe that this current topic began as a request for advice on interpretation which diverged, reasonably and rather constructively, into a suggestion that that guideline's wording could be improved to make the matter clearer. You, and from my read only you, are trying to turn it into yet another redundant debate about whether the guideline's underlying advise should change, an idea you never get even close to consensus on, no matter how many times you bring it up. Give it a rest, huh? A really long one for a change. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In fact, TinyMark disagrees with the present wording; it is not consensus among Wikipedians, far less among the users of English as a whole. That SMcCandlish still wants to get back at the professors of his elective courses is a pity; but it should not determine our guidance on the matter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Strange characterizations of my alleged movites doesn't make an actual argument. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 03:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

So when are you planning on holding your next public flogging of this dead horse, PMA? Tony (talk) 05:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I'm new here, but I am not going to abandon everything I learned in school and college on where to put the period and other punctuation marks when quotation marks are involved. You want umpteen students to learn one way in school and another here. That ain't gonna fly. Students do not get it correct all the time in school; now they will see examples of what is taught as incorrect and think it is correct. I will put a period inside the quotation marks if it is an American-related topic. British people, I assume, will put in on the outside. Don't take one argument and turn it into something else. — Bobopaedia 20:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

We generally expect you, as a WPian, to be more flexible than to insist that everything you were taught about formatting/punctuation at grade school should be automatically used in an international English-language project (it's not an American project). WP is a set of compromises that largely works, given the big bagginess of the English language. Here, the issue is that the Chicago MoS is pronouncing for many tenors and modes, whereas our mission is rather more specific; critically, it involves an unwavering respect for not tampering with quoted material. The illogical method is problematic in inserting into quoted material punctuation that arises from the structure of our sentence, not that of the original author. SImple as that.

So if you go about changing WP's established practice, you deserve to be reverted. It would be better to spend your time doing the opposite. Tony (talk) 00:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Tony, this is exactly the same issue as U.S. above: you don't have to abandon the way you spell US (except in strongly American articles, where we should use American English); but neither method gets imposed on other people. So here; Bobopaedia, and his kids, should not be required to abandon aesthetic punctuation; we should note the existence of both methods, and discuss advantages and disadvantages. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

- - - -

Tony, you turned the discussion into something else. I know there are American and British differences; I had already allowed for that. Tony, and other users, I'm not talking about changing the punctuation from the source of a quote; I'm talking about, as an example to illustrate my point, how the terminal punctuation is written when something is in quotation marks. Thus:

The character of Peter is introduced in the chapter "Sunrise." (American English)

The character of Peter is introduced in the chapter "Sunrise". (British English, I assume)

There are other instances when something is written as dialogue that has not yet appeared in print. If an American reporter is covering what, say, a person said aloud, he would puncutate it according to American custom when writing for his newspaper; a British reporter would punctuate it according to his respective custom and newspaper. Thus:

Today the ambassador of Kookooland said "We will not intervene." (American)

An educated American who found the period outside of the ending quote mark would say that it is incorrect, just as he would if the writer had spelled the last word interveen.

Now, if I am quoting an article from The Times, I would punctuate it however it appeared in that newspaper.

I hope this clarifies what I said. Bobopaedia 16:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

---

According to CMOS (Chicago), APA, MLA, Merriam-Webster, Associated Press Stylebook, OWL (Purdue U.) and every other style guide I could find, in North America (not just US) periods and commas always (without exception) go inside the closing quotation marks. A Survey of Modern English By Stephan Gramley, Kurt-Michael Pätzold. Routledge, 2004. ISBN 0415300355, explains:

• "American English (AmE) opts for simplification whenever closing quotation marks occur together with a period or comma. The period or comma always comes inside the quotation marks whether or not it 'belongs' to the material quoted or not.
• British English (BrE) places its full stops and commas inside if they belong to what is quoted and outside if they do not."(p. 282, para. 12.2.2)

No educator on either side of the Atlantic should ever have to tell a student: "This is the way it is except in Wikipedia." Wikipedia has never been about changing the generally-accepted standards of anything. Where there are two generally-accepted ways to do something, the Wiki rule of thumb is to allow either method, so long as it is consistent within an article. We should show respect for both traditions and ask only for within-article consistency. Highly recommend amending MoS to this effect. Afaprof01 03:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely agree 100% with you, Afaprof01! Wikipedia should allow standard, widely-used forms of punctuation in its articles. TK421 23:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm very new to editing, but I find that this sentence should settle the argument: "scientific and technical publications, even in the U.S., almost universally use logical quotation (punctuation outside unless part of the source material), due to its precision". I find that the goal of Wikipedia should be the same to that of scientific and technical publications in regards to precision, eventhough I was taught the typesetter rule in school. My question though, is what system most encyclopedias use?Resu ecrof 21:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

You've basically negated your own question by effectively deeming it meaningless, but to answer it anyway, you'll find that some encyclopedias do one style and others do the other. American ones like the modern Britannica (despite its name, it is today a US publication) use the typographic style, while others use logical punctuation. I want to to stress again that this is not actually a transatlantic issue, and further that WP does not have to do what Britannica does, just "because"; WP is setting its own standard. WP for example, prefers SI and metric units over US units. I.e., give hectares, not acres. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:52, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Punctuation with quotation marks

Resolved

 – Rehash of discussion already held many times, most recently less than a month ago.

On page 278 of "The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage" in the section "PUNCTUATION WITH QUOTATION MARKS," it states: "Periods and commas, in American usage, always go inside the closing quotation marks, regardless of grammatical logic." Now if Wikipedia states that the opposite is true and disregards this common usage, it leads me to understand why teachers and professors refuse to let students reference Wikipedia; it promotes illiteracy.

-69.231.5.43 02:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, Safely Anonymous! But in fact that manual you cite is just one of very many. It is certainly not one of the main players (look to Chicago Manual of Style and Oxford Guide to Style, if you want those). And the guides are not unanimous on these matters by any means. Much of what you see here at MOS and in the articles concerning punctuation, etc., is well ahead of many of the old-fashioned guides, which for one thing simply do not address the needs of a dynamic and democratic online environment such as we're working in here. There is much to improve here still, but you have not, in your comment, identified an area that needs improvement.

– Noetica^♬♩ Talk 02:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The New York Times would also be more involved with grammar in a newspaper entry, and not for an encyclopedic article or research paper. There is actually some difference between the two. The359 03:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

This is not a transatlantic issue. As SMcCandlish has already pointed out at length, many US publications—especially those that are concerned to maintain the privilege of unchanged sources, use logical punctuation, with good reason. And WP has its own, unique environment, which is different from those of the sources cited above (and I'm unsure that the information they all provide is accurate); primary among those WPian concerns is not to tamper with sources. Have a good read of the discussion above, and similar discussions in the archives. Tony (talk) 02:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it's a civility issue: a handful of self-appointed "reformers" think they can use this page to make English into what they would like. Since aesthetic punctuation is purely formal, it tampers with sources no more, perhaps less, than "logical" punctation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

No PMA, it's question of moving on – towards a stable consensus that leaves bickering and small-minded national allegiances behind, along with merely sentimental attachment to one body of practice or another. On this and other matters, we simply have to consider what can be changed and what can't be, and to form the best guidelines we can with those ineluctable limits in mind. The self-appointed obstructors of such work would be well advised to go away and do something else. Something productive, perhaps. What should Wikipedia be, if not essentially reformist, in the best sense? Where should discussion focused on rational reform in the service of excellence occur, if not exactly here? (Answer only if you support such efforts here, please. Otherwise take no part in a process you deprecate.)

– Noetica^♬♩ Talk 21:00, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The only possible stable consensus, as the history of this section demonstrates, includes the admission that there exist two systems. It may then be possible to have a stable, unprotested, text that recommends one of them; although it would be better to treat our editors like adults by giving the reasons to prefer one system (including the number of editors who prefer it) and letting editors make up their minds accordingly. 02:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is not a language reform movement; nor should we be. Even if this were a matter of thoughtless linguistic chauvinism (and Tony disagrees that it is a national difference at all), it is not the business of Wikipedia to compel our editors to the broad sunlit uplands of positive freedom which supposedly lie beyond "small-minded linguistic differences". Some readers and writers of English use logical punctuation; some use aesthetic punctuation. We may be able to persuade some editors to reconsider their choices in this matter; we cannot, and should not attempt to, do more. We should treat this as we treat color/colour, and move on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

With national spellings, it is easy to tell the difference at a glance, one either knows that "centre" is a spelling mistake or Commonwealth English. The trouble with punctuation and quotes is that it can be difficult to tell which style is being used. Indeed as Wikipedia is optimised for readers, the chances are that many will get it wrong even if there is an in house style, unless they take the trouble to read the MOS, which is unlikely unless they are Wikipedia editors. --Philip Baird Shearer 07:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

See WP:CONSENSUS#"Asking the other parent": "It is very easy to create the appearance of a changing consensus simply by asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people will discuss the issue. This, however, is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Wikipedia works. Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day. It is based on a system of good reasons." PS: MOS does not deny that two systems "exist", it simply prefers one over the other for precisely the same reasons that technical, scientific and other publications do so: logical punctuation is more precise. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 20:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Punctuation for titles in quotation marks

1. The Billboard Hot 100's current number one is "Kiss Kiss."
2. The Billboard Hot 100's current number one is "Kiss Kiss".

Which one is correct? Thanks, –thedemonhog talk • edits 06:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe the second one is correct. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotation marks for more information. --Silver Edge 08:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Both are "correct": that is to say that different careful writers will use each of them after considering the question. We should, but are never likely to, explain the merits of both. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It's explained at [[15]]. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 19:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It is certainly the second one, per WP:PUNC. violet/riga (t) 19:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the question. If one cares what a handful of revert-warriors have insisted on, there is one answer. If one wants to write English, there are several. If it doesn't improve the encyclopedia, ignore it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter. I've seen it both ways and I always go with #1 because it looks neater. –thedemonhog talk • edits 21:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree that it doesn't matter: both systems are formalities, with different inconveniences. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

All featured articles are required to adhere to our MOS, WP:PUNC inclusive, and where possible we should apply it to all our articles. You might say "it doesn't matter" but others disagree. violet/riga (t) 23:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, some editors insist on making GA and FA be about irrelevant, arbitrary, and trivial points, having nothing to do with the meaning, clarity, or verifiability of articles; this is one chief reason they are so widely despised, rejected, and ignored. (GA is already no assistance to the encyclopedia; FA has been degrading steadily. But this is only one aspect of the general scantiness and incompetence of review.) I am sorry to see an editor I had hitherto respected join in this folly. WP:IAR remains policy; it is what happens to failing processes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I hate FAC and avoid the place - something like this is not worth failing a nomination for. I've never even looked at GA. I fix such things when I find them because it's the standard we have agreed on and I like to have our articles have an element of consistency. Personally I feel it is a more logically correct formation and less ambiguous and should be used in all professional writing. violet/riga (t) 23:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I came here because it does come up on FAC. It is either not mentioned at all (fortunately most usual), or it is used as a reason to reject; and this is why I would mention both systems here. Which seems more natural and useful to a given editor depends on which they were brought up on, and how contrary they are; there is a case that "typographical punctation" is more logical and less prone to error (being a purely conventional system, which makes no assertion about the presence or absence of punctuation in the original). There are cases where accurate quotation using "logical punctuation" is impossible to guarantee without the clumsiness of double quotation marks; one can be found in the recent archives. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

This is your pet peeve, Anderson, and your entries here seem to be part of a strategy to raise it about ... let me see ... once every three weeks, as though we'll get tired of it and agree with you. We're tired of it, certainly, but that won't change our view. WP decided some time ago that logical punctuation should be used, for reasons concerning the overriding need not to tamper with quoted material inside the quotation marks. Numerous American publications use it, and so should you. Tony (talk) 00:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Is this a deliberate falsehood, or merely more of Tony's carelessness? I have refrained from raising the issue; I have agreed with others who have raised it, so that the other falsehood, that no-one does, will be harder to maintain.
• In fact, I do use logical punctuation, contrary to my education. I do not see a moral imperative in the matter; and may yet change back, since it does have disadvantages, and is bringing me into bad company. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

…both are correct; however they are different styles of written English. #1 is U.S. English while #2 is British English. Wikipedia tends to prefer the British English style since it's, well, logical. What is present in the punctuation guideline right now is the consensus of users who use all varieties of written English. 哦， 是吗？(User:O) 02:52, 24 November 2007 (GMT)

To the original poster, thedemonhog: Just go with what the Manual of Style says; the punctuation goes outside. A small number of editors argue against this, but consensus has not changed The problem with interior punctuation is that it tells almost every reader in the world but most Americans "this punctuation is, certainly part of the quoted material", while all it tells Americans is "this punctuation may or may not be, we don't know and don't care, too bad for you, part of the quoted material". It is sloppy, imprecise, and for many readers directly misleading, expecially when used with actual quotations of passages that have been truncated before they ended in the original. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 05:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

And just in case anyone still argues that it's a North American versus everyone else issue, I note with disappointment that my daily newspaper, The Sydney Morning Herald, uses interior punctuation. Tony (talk) 13:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the observation that British novels do it too make it pretty clear that the distinction is really informal and (mostly Americanly, but sometimes Britishly, Australianly) semi-formal (as in pop journalism), versus formal, with a vague preference among North Americans in their personal writing (regardless of register) to prefer the in- and quasi-formal style, and vague preference among everyone else to use the formal style, with a lot of individual variation. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Hogwash. In the U.S., most punctuation goes inside the quotation marks. If you can't figure out that a comma is used in a series, then it wouldn't matter if it was inside or outside the quotes. If you can't figure out that the sentence ends in a period, then the same. BUT DON'T EXPECT U.S. PERSONS WHO KNOW WHAT STANDARD U.S. ENGLISH GRAMMAR AND PUNCTUATION RULES COMMAND AND WHO WENT TO SCHOOL FOR THIRTEEN YEARS (PLUS FOUR YEARS OF COLLEGE), WHERE THOSE PERSONS HAD TO WRITE CORRECTLY, TO WRITE DIFFERENTLY HERE. Just write each article the correct way, use British for British articles, English for English, and maintain consistency within each article. But unless the casual user knows that there is a difference, he or she will write the way he or she was taught (assuming the person was taught correctly and is proficient in applying what was supposed to have been learned). For the average person who has gone to school, learned how to write correct, standard English, and then has found and wants to use Wikipedia, being forced to write English incorrectly does NOT seem LOGICAL! Bobopaedia 15:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh ... deary me ... so shouting wins the argument: loudest voice wins, does it? It's nothing to do with grammar, as you seem to assume. Have you read the detailed debate above and in the archives concerning how the issue is not nation against nation, but is rather more closely aligned with the need for precision in a particular linguistic register? There's no absolute truth or correctness about either system: it serves the overriding purposes of WP to use logical style. Please don't shout. Tony (talk) 15:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, YOU have missed the point again. FIRST, I WAS EMPHASIZING. So sorry it wan't in midnight blue to suit you. Do you honestly think the average person is going to read all those archives. _ (Although I have.) _ "Precision in a particularly linguistic register?" WTF! Isn't grammar and puctuation linguistic precision? You are an editor? How do you edit when something is perceived as incorrect? You baffle me.Bobopaedia 15:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC) _ So now it is not about grammar? Just make up something else. Perhaps we should also condone misspelling. What do you think people will do they see periods, commas, etc. in the wrong place? Think to themselves: "Oh. This has nothing to do with grammar, or punctuation, or spelling. It's Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia. But isn't an encyclopedia supposed to use English correctly?" Yes, if it is going to be taken seriously. I know for a fact that in the U.S., teachers and school districts do not let their students use Wikipedia for research projects. One wonders why? INACCURACY! INACCURACY! INACCURACY! Bobopaedia 17:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's accuracy problems have nothing at all to do with puctuation style. And please lay off the screeching invective. WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND. Appeal to emotion is a fallacy. If you want to emphasize something, use italics instead of ASCII SCREAMING. Anyway, this issue has been hashed to death and beyond. The fact that most but not all informal US publications like newspapers and novels (and some non-US ones) prefer interior punctuation of quotations is of no particular consequence. The fact that even US-based formal publications that require precision and lack of ambiguity, such as medical and scientific journals, use exterior, logical puntuation tells us we are doing the right thing by also using that in the encyclopedia. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 01:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Quotes and punctuation in references

I know that whether punctuation should be inside or out of quotes has been discussed before here, but not in relation to references. I completely understand the concept of 'logical quotation,' but nowhere do I see anything mentioning what applies to references. In wikipedia the cite template and sources page recommend having punctuation outside quotes such as in this example:

1. Brandybuck, Meriadoc (1955). "Herb lore of the Shire". Journal of the Royal Institute of Chemistry 10 (2), 234–351.

However, apart from this one "guide" (PDF). (131 KiB) linked from the Harvard referencing pages (which does not make clear which style it is using), all of the major style guides such as MLA, "Turabian". (131 KiB) and Chicago put the punctuation inside the quotes like this:

1. Brandybuck, Meriadoc (1955). "Herb lore of the Shire." Journal of the Royal Institute of Chemistry 10 (2), 234–351.

APA doesn't seem to use quotes in its titling. I'm not sure why wikipedia style seems to go against three of the most widely used styles and put the punctuation outside of the quotation in references. Therefore, I propose that the style guide me modified to reflect the most common usage. This could be done by adding in a new section to the quotation marks section of the punctuation section noting that referencing follows different rules from text used in the body, and then modifying the cite template as well as the various examples littered around the help sections on referencing in wikipedia.Zeus1234 16:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Punctuation after the closing quotation marks would be consistent and logical in references too. But here, we're less concerned about not tampering with quoted material. So I find any reasonable formatting system for reference lists will do, provided it's consistent. Tony (talk) 00:40, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Strongly oppose, on the basis of consistency. If we make an exception for this, then soon we'll have clamoring for 14 other exceptions. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 00:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Quotation mark

A source said that period and commas should be written within the quotation marks. Only the exclamation and question mark do have exemptions. BritandBeyonce (talk) 12:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

An exclamation mark or question mark goes inside the quotes if and only if it is part of the quotation. Robert Greer (talk) 18:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Question marks and exclamation points are easy to understand whether they're included in the quoted material or not. What about comma and period? A lot of FAs are having problems with that. BritandBeyonce (talk) 08:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Stuff inside quote marks belongs to the quote. Stuff outside does not. Thus I would write:

• User BritandBeyonce asked the question "What about comma and period?" because there appeared to be some confusion.

Similarly, the capital at the beginning and the period at the end of a sentence both belong to the quote. Thus I would write:

• He then added the sentence "A lot of FAs are having problems with that.".

I do not know if that is what the guidelines require, but that is what I do. Lightmouse (talk) 09:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Do not add period at the end. Also, I am very much familiar with the usage of quotation marks with regards to question marks and exclamation points. What is my very concern is the period and comma.

..."Let Me Blow Ya Mind".
but
..."Let Me Blow Ya Mind."

These are some errors in FA articles. Confusing and inconsistent right?

Take a look at this:

Double quotation marks " "

1. Enclose direct quotations but not indirect quotation.
• She said, "I am leaving."
• She said that she was leaving.

2. Enclose words or phrases borrowed from others, words used in a special way, and words of marked informality when introduced into formal writing.
• Much of the population in the hellish future he envisions is addicted to "derms," patches that deliver potent drug doses instantaneously through the skin.
• He called himself "emperor," but he was really just a dictator.
• He was arrested for smuggling "smack."

3. Enclose titles of poems, short stories, articles, lectures, chapters of books, short musical compositions, and radio and TV programs.
• Robert Frost's "After Apple-Picking"
• Cynthia Ozick's "Rosa"
• The third chapter of Treasure Island is entitled "The Black Spot."
• "All the Things You Are"
• Debussy's "Clair de lune"
• NBC’s "Today Show"

4. Are used with other punctuation marks in the following way:
4a. The period and the comma fall within the quotation marks.
• "I am leaving," she said.
• It was unclear how she maintained such an estate on "a small annuity."
4b. The colon and semicolon fall outside the quotation marks.
• There was only one thing to do when he said, "I may not run": promise him a large campaign contribution.
• He spoke of his "little cottage in the country": he might better have called it a mansion.
4c. The dash, the quotation mark, and the exclamation point fall within the quotation marks when they refer to the quoted matter only; they fall outside when they refer to the whole sentence.
• "I can't see how—" he started to say.
• He asked, "When did she leave?"
• What is the meaning of "the open door"?
• The sergeant shouted "Halt!"
• Save us from his "mercy"!

5. Are not used with yes or no except in direct discourse.
• She said yes to all our requests.

6. Are not used with lengthy quotations set off from the text.

Source: The Merriam-Webster Dictionary, 1998

Note that the period and comma should be written inside the quotation marks. BritandBeyonce (talk) 10:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That's the opinion of Merriam-Webster. I think that this has been discussed many times before. Wikipedia, after much discussion, prefers "logical quotation" - that is, to include punctuation within the quotation marks only when it comes from the quotation; to put it another way, Wikipedia believes that nothing should be put in a quote that is not part of it. So I would say: 'BritandBeyonce said, "Note that the period and comma should be written inside the quotation marks."' But: '"Note that the period and comma should be written inside the quotation marks", said BritandBeyonce.' Because the original source has a full stop at the end, if I change this to a comma that needs to go outside the quotation marks, to show that it isn't part of the quote. This is also usual (though not universal) British style; most US sources, such as the one you have quoted, say otherwise, although logical quotation has a growing following in the US, particularly in technical writing (see, for example, Hacker Writing Style in the Jargon File). TSP (talk) 11:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I do believe that logical quotation looks proper but don't you know that FAs are having problems with that? Its confusing and articles tends to be inconsistent and incoherent with our guides. BritandBeyonce (talk) 06:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Which FAs in particular? Strad (talk) 03:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Gwen Stefani songs that have already gained FA statuses. BritandBeyonce (talk) 08:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

'Logical quotation'

I've been challenged when I put periods and commas inside quotation marks, based on Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotation marks, that Wikipedia uses "logical quotation." I've never heard of this. I understand that putting periods and commas inside or outside of quotation marks is basically American vs. British usage. I would like to challenge this idea of "logical quotation": what is the source for it? It looks like it's either from technical writing or something made up. What outside source is Wikipedia basing its style on? InkQuill (talk) 18:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Basing from news articles from websites, they do not use logical quotations. --BritandBeyonce (talk) 02:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

As well you should be challenged. It's not a transatlantic issue, since many US publications forbid internal punctuation, and many publications in the UK and elsewhere use the discredited internal system. WP does not have to follow external sources in determining its rules of style. See archives here for more. Tony (talk) 04:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not forcing anyway to change the policy. I am more concerned with FAs having inconsistency issues. --BritandBeyonce (talk) 04:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a god-damned thing that Wikipedia has made up. (And Tony seems to be stubborn as hell in trying to enforce it.) It's in the guidelines (which only means that it is suggested) but it is not absolute. It is wrong. You can't make up your own grammar rules. This has been discussed at length. What I and most do is follow the American English v. Brit/Euro English differences: If it is an American-specific article, follow American grammar; if Brit, follow Brit/Euro or whatever is correct for that language. Most importantly is to be consistent within articles. But I hardly ever find consistency. Tony will say it not U.S. (notice the periods) v. Brit. That's his opinion. The evidence speaks for itself. Type the way you know is grammatically correct. ---- Bobopaedia (talk) 05:09, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Bobo, you've had several sprays here about your notion of what is correct grammar (it's not a grammatical issue, anyway) and your hunches as to some transatlantic conspiracy; you've been howled down by others for your troubles. Give it away. Tony (talk) 05:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

If you are going to refer to me, at least use my correct user name. I am not "Bobo." And you, Tony, seem to be the predominant one howling. I have no trans-Atlantic "conspiracy"; where is this so-called "conspiracy"?; who am I conspiring with? Geez. The fact is Americans and Brits punctuate differently--which I have simply stated--and that does not make a conspiracy. Yes, IT IS a grammatical issue. This "logical" puncutation does not follow American rules. And if it doesn't follow British rules, then it is not following TWO systems of punctuation. Why learn years and years of English (British or American) and then not use it correctly? Bobopaedia (talk) 10:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC) P.S. Thanks to those below who spoke up and to the typesetting history. I didn't know any of the details as to why the American system was as such.

Why are you so inflexibly married to certain rules—the ones you first learnt, it seems. WP is an international project, so you can't expect that everything they taught you at grade school will do. It's online and not on paper, and is aimed at its own particular readership, which are further reasons for being flexible. Similarly, if you wrote for a particular US publication, you'd have to follow their house rules, which will never be entirely the same as others. Loosen up. Tony (talk) 11:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a college degree, have both written and edited technical and nontechnical writing, and have more than just grade-school courses in English. By the way, I just read all the mean, arrogant things you said to people at the discussion for featured article consideration for the article Analytical Review (Featured article candidates). Bobopaedia (talk) 14:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You have a college degree? Wow. It shouldn't be hard for you, then, to comprehend the issue. As far as the personal attack goes, I don't mind it; others react badly, but I see no point in that. Speak your mind if it makes you feel better, and move on. Tony (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC) (B's personal attack was removed soon after this entry.) Tony (talk) 15:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

That was done after messaging with someone on Wikipedia and before I saw your response. Whatever timing was there was purely coincidental. I am not warring with you anymore on this issue. Bobopaedia (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Bobopaedia, you didn’t know anything about the reasons for some rule, yet defend it with claws and teeth? Wow! I’m stunned.

OTOH, it happens a lot around here at MoS, but most editors don’t confess their bias as frankly as you did. Christoph Päper (talk) 13:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't know the part about the baseline. And what does OTOH mean? Bobopaedia (talk) 14:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I feel I must weigh in on this. I understand the reasoning behind "logical quotation," and I agree that it has merit in coding and in technical writing, both of which have historical basis for using nonproportional typefaces, in which the spacing between letters does not vary and thus does not figure into readability considerations. As a typesetter, I also know that punctuation is not a "logical" process; it has entirely to do with readability. For typesetters, the rule is to put punctuation within quotes that does not rise above the baseline, such as periods and commas; and other punctuation, such as question marks, exclamation marks, semicolons, etc., outside unless the punctuation is part of the quoted string. As a typesetter, I see violations of this rule as jarring errors, and hard to ignore. Putting baseline punctuation outside quotemarks upsets the visual rhythm of the typesetting, thus affecting readability. While some argue that so-called "logical quotation" removes ambiguity, in reality a reader gets the sense of the sentence almost entirely from context. Placement of baseline punctuation is a letter-spacing issue, having to do with how marks are made and how we use our eyes. Exceptions can (and should) be made in technical writing (which Wikipedia isn't), legal writing, and coding, all of which employ recursive reading practices that have little else to do with "why we read." rowley (talk) 20:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Rowley claims that Wikipedia isn't technical writing, but some articles are. Also, with the pervasive use of the Internet in all fields, with the associated requirement that URLs be written perfectly, some of the requirements of technical writing are invading all writing. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Hear, hear, rowley!! You have said so well what I have understood instinctively as a journalist and printophile. Wikipedia is not even consistent in its style, as above comments have shown. While it's not worth getting into editing wars, I'm definitely going to stick with good old American punctuation rules in U.S.-based subjects, despite snarky retorts about how I should be challenged (as if I'm not entitled to an opinion) and how others are insulted for professing their point of view. "Several sprays"? As we punctuate in the U.S., "Give me a break." InkQuill (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Setting aside the question of whether Wikipedia is technical writing, there is still no conflict here. If an article is written so much in the style of technical writing that the same considerations apply, then, by all means, punctuate according to the requirements of technical writing. For the vast majority of Wikipedia writing, the readability will be improved by following the conventions of proportionally-based type, i.e., typesetting. When I say "rule," above, I mean something to be faithfully but not rigidly followed. Wikipedia should desire consistency, but consistency, itself, has to fall within considerations of applicability. rowley (talk) 16:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Support rowley. Wikipedia is inconsistent because of this "logical quotation." --BritandBeyonce (talk) 07:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Um ... so just because there's grammatical inconsistency on WP—and plenty of MOS breaches—we should throw MOS and English grammar to the wind? And I completely disagree that internal punctuation is somehow "nicer" to read, which is a line peddled above. Tony (talk) 08:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Definitely. We don't want to pursue on things that might harm Wiki. Wikipedia is still on the verge of establishing credibility. On the grammar, why throw to the wind? Its just a matter of adopting easy guidelines. --BritandBeyonce (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Research on conventional vs. logical punctuation

Throw English grammar to the wind? Where I learned English, or rather punctuation, the rule was to put periods and commas inside quotation marks. So we're not advocating against proper rules, but for them. And rather than "peddling" the idea that internal punctuation is nicer to read, I think rowley was basing what he said on readability studies and/or years of printing tradition. It's the idea that he is "peddling" something that is itself simply opinion. But this is clearly not a new question. Here's what Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage, a British source, says:

"Questions of order between inverted commas [quotation marks] and stops [commas, periods, colons, semi-colons] are much debated and a writer's personal preference often conflicts with the style rules of editors and publishers. There are two schools of thought, which might be called the conventional and the logical. The conventional prefers to put stops within the inverted commas, if it can be done without ambiguity, on the ground that this has a more pleasing appearance. The logical punctuates according to sense, and puts them outside except when they actually form part of the quotation, thus: (examples snipped) ...

"The conventional system is more favoured by editors' and publishers' rules. But there are important exceptions, and it is to be hoped that these will make their influence felt. The conventional system flouts common sense, and it is not easy for the plain man to see what merit it is supposed to have to outweigh that defect; even the more pleasing appearance claimed for it is not likely to go unquestioned." (A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, Second Edition, H.W. Fowler, revised and edited by Sir Ernest Gowers (New York: Oxford University Press, 1965).

How prescient is that? My point is not that conventional punctuation should be adopted, but that we shouldn't insult those who disagree. The Chicago Manual of Style calls for conventional punctuation: "When the context calls for a comma at the end of material enclosed in quotation marks, parentheses, or brackets, the comma should be placed inside the quotation marks but outside the parentheses or brackets" (13th edition, page 146). The Careful Writer by Theodore M. Bernstein does not appear to deal with the question explicitly but uses conventional punctuation throughout. So those of us who advocated conventional punctuation are doing so based on solid editing and publishing ground. I'm interested in seeing sources that call explicitly for logical punctuation. I don't know of any myself, and in fact have never seen it widely used, which is why Wikipedia's use of it baffles me. Maybe in some countries it is the norm. It is not in the United States. — InkQuill 00:52, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

InkQuill, please see the archives of this talk page for copious debates, some of them quite recent. Tony (talk) 11:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Why do we have to go back their? That's why editors kept discussing on this for this guideline is not yet over. Why don't you go over on this Tony: "Smells Like Teen Spirit." --BritandBeyonce (talk) 07:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Changing punctuation in direct quotes

I have seen editors making changes to direct quotes citing the MoS. For example I saw someone modify quoted text using a double-dash cut-and-pasted from the original, changing it to an em-dash with a comment citing WP:MOSDASH. Although this specific case is not a major issue, I think we need to remind people not to be editing direct quotes, regardless of good intentions. I have seen similar issues with people editing items from the 'quote=' field in {{cite}} templates as well. I have added preserving punctuation to the WP:MOSQUOTE section to cover this. Dhaluza (talk) 00:10, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

While I agree with not changing punctuation in direct quotes (unless the change is marked with square brackets), I'm not sure the same reasoning applies to mere changes in typography. A double-hyphen is not a different punctuation mark from a dash; they are different typographic representations of the same symbol.--Srleffler (talk) 04:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Changing a double-hyphen to an em-dash is sort of like changing the font, or turning straight quotes into curly quotes. Strad (talk) 05:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree regarding typographic changes (that they're fine), and I think we ought to make it clear in MOS that it is okay to make such changes, for example changing a hyphen (or double-hyphen) used as a dash into an actual dash. I'm sure there are other such examples, probably including simple spacing issues and so on. Otherwise, we'd have to argue that the quote appear in the same font (or at least font family), with line breaks in the same places, and so on. SamBC(talk) 15:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The difference between "logical" and "aesthetic" punctuation of quotes is also typographic. Aesthetic punctuation treats ," in Smith wrote that "the Foolanders ran away," but Jones replied that this was a Barlander smear. as a single purely formal mark, which denotes both the end of the quote and a comma in the larger sentence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with all the options on various search engines. If the order of a comma and quotation mark are reversed, or if two hyphens become a dash, how likely is it that someone will search for a quotation in Wikipedia and get no hits as a result of the fact that we changed the punctuation? Certainly "not usually" ... but will it happen? - Dan Dank55 (talk) 17:21, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The reverse is apt to be a problem: if someone goes to a long source, cuts a quote from Wikipedia, and pastes it into the browser's search feature, any variation in punctuation will prevent the quote from being found. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have no idea what the answer to Dank's question is; but changing double-hyphens to emdashes will probably have the same problem. A searcher who finds no results really should trim the quotation anyway, or (for Gerry's problem) consult our listed source. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

If there is a source, that is.

I did have the same question however, and I was rather hesitant to make any changes, although I wanted to. In my opinion, simple edits to quotation marks and dashes should be considered acceptable. Waltham, The Duke of 20:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe most search engines ignore punctuation. I tried searching for the specific text with both the double hyphens and the em-dash and got the same results in Google. So that is probably not an issue. The issue is that if they are typographocally equivilant, then that is reason not to change, rather than reason to excuse the change. Making stylistic changes to direct quotes can do more harm than good, because what seems like a benign change, may not be. This is less like changing fonts, and more like changing spelling between British/American versions. We should respect the original author's choice of punctuation marks in quotes, and leave them alone. Dhaluza (talk) 09:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The more I think about it, the more I agree with Dhaluza. Sure, I tend to try to fix punctuation to reflect what I think is the author's true intent, even in a quotation, and I will try to exercise enough self-awareness to keep my own biases from affecting my choices, and enough awareness of different punctuation practices to help me understand what was meant in the original and what might be understood in an alteration. But changing punctuation can easily change the meaning, and changing the meaning is unacceptable when you use quotation marks to attribute the words to someone else. Will every editor know the whole range of options in punctuation, not just the punctuation that they tend to use? I could see some limited exceptions if necessary, but in general, it seems to me it would be better to leave punctuation inside a quotation alone. If an editor thinks that the quotation might be misunderstood, because of punctuation or otherwise, they can explain that outside the quotation marks. - Dan Dank55 (talk) 20:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Logical quotation

Arthur said that "the situation is deplorable." – in this sentence, does the period belong in or outside the quotes if the period was part of the quoted text? WP:MOS#Quotation marks seems contradictary as it states that the period should be inside when it "is part of the quoted text" and outside when "a sentence fragment is quoted". Epbr123 (talk) 00:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

If it's stated or implied that Arthur put a period after deplorable, or would have if he had written down what he said, then the period comes first; otherwise not. I dredged the WT:MoS archives on this recently, so if you're unconvinced, see WT:How_to_copy-edit#Logical_quotation. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 00:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Nothing about implied. If the dot is there in the original and the quote starts a WP sentence, yes, inside. If the quote starts within a WP sentence, outside. If the quote ends without punctuation in the original —in the middle of the quoted sentence—ellipsis dots are required. Tony (talk) 01:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The distinction between starting a WP sentence or not isn't so clear cut in my reading of the guidelines. For example, isn't this example OK? Trevor said, "I hate it when goats come into my yard." — Dulcem (talk) 01:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

No. Tony (talk) 01:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

If Arthur was speaking rather than writing, then an "implied" period is the only kind of period Arthur could give us. But the way Tony is framing it is right. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 02:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, what about, Arthur said, "I hate it when goats come into my yard. They are so smelly." Here we've got two sentences quoted. Does it make a difference? — Dulcem (talk) 02:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Tony knows quite a lot about Wikipedian usage, and I do remember seeing that in FAs, although that's not what I'm used to seeing. For instance, the Guardian's online style guide says:

quotation marks

Use double quotes at the start and end of a quoted section, with single quotes for quoted words within that section. Place full points and commas inside the quotes for a complete quoted sentence; otherwise the point comes outside:

"Anna said, 'Your style guide needs updating,' and I said, 'I agree.' "

- Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 02:18, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

That seems much more logical than the "logical" style we have now. — Dulcem (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. There is no reason to inject a comma into quotespace when it can just as easily sit outside. Ilkali (talk) 06:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Arthur said something.
• Arthur said "I hate it when goats come into my yard; they are so smelly".

I don't mind the preceding comma—said,—but it's fine without, isn't it? The thing about the final period is that if you want to highlight that "smelly" isn't the end of the quoted sentence, do this:

• Arthur said "I hate it when goats come into my yard; they are so smelly ...".

Otherwise, the default is the assumption that it is the end of a sentence, or it simply doesn't matter in the context. Tony (talk) 10:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Is the example at WP:MOS#Quotation marks wrong? – Arthur said, "The situation is deplorable." Epbr123 (talk) 11:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed that different people seem to do different things, but I have to sit this one out, because I suck at Commonwealth English. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 14:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

What is this "Commonwealth English" that you claim people "follow" (supernatural religion?)? Canada is a Commonwealth country: do Canadians use CE? India is, too. Tony (talk) 14:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, am I saying something offensive? What term do you use for what is sometimes abbreviated "AmEng" and "BrEng" around here? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 14:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

No Dank, there's not a molecule of you that could be offensive (leave that up to me). Sorry if my comment came over as brusque. CE has been bandied about as a blanket term for all varieties of English that are not North American or British. I know it's convenient, but I question its meaning. Tony (talk) 14:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Last time this term came up, somebody (as I recall, Tony) had objected to BrEng as a slight to the independent Englishes of the Dominions; Commonwealth was preferred as covering all of them and English English too. I don't mind being politically correct on this point, but it would be nice if there were consensus on what correctitude would be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Both of you are right, I think; there's no such thing as Commonwealth English or BrEng, and I just hadn't caught on yet. Both American English and North American English (AmEng seems to mean the latter around here, but I generally avoid it as ambiguous) do mean something, and not because we're dealing with just one or two countries, but because writers over here have largely decided that they want it to mean something, that is, the forces that congeal consensus on the kinds of things that show up in Chicago and AP Stylebook have been winning over the forces of individualism for several decades now. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 17:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Those who value external Manuals of Style may wish to consider CMOS §6.10:

According to what is sometimes called the British style (set forth in The Oxford Guide to Style [the successor to Hart’s Rules; see bibliog. 1.1]), a style also followed in other English-speaking countries, only those punctuation points that appeared in the original material should be included within the quotation marks; all others follow the closing quotation marks. This system, which requires extreme authorial precision and occasional decisions by the editor or typesetter, works best with single quotation marks. (The British tend to use double quotation marks only for quotations within quotations.)

This is no evidence for the refinement presently under discussion; is there a source for it? (And the general advice is sound; WP editors are not known for "extreme authorial precision". We also recomend double quotation marks.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:MOS#Quotation marks

[Just noticed this (re: "inside or outside"), which I point out in an article talk page and am copying here, for others' information, if useful:] An example called a "sentence fragment" in the section linked on "Quotation marks" ("Come with me."--mispunctuated as "Come with me") is actually not a "fragment" of a sentence; it is a full sentence: an imperative command ("Come with me." is a sentence based on the imperative usage of the verb "to come"; "Come." signifies "I am telling you to come," just as "Come with me." signifies "I am telling you to come with me." (It may appear elliptical ["a fragment"] to some, but it is an imperative.) --NYScholar (talk) 00:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC) [Also added to section above: #Punctuation: Quotation marks: Inside or outside. --NYScholar (talk) 00:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)]

[Please see Imperative mood#Usage: in the above example ("Come with me." v. "Come with me") in the current version of this project page re: "inside or outside" quotation marks, what is labeled as "correct" is actually incorrect, and vice versa. (I added Wikified link above too.)--NYScholar (talk) 03:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)]

Quotation Marks misconception

I’m about to make a change to: Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotation_marks; just warning here (and will note change after doing), since this is a high-visibility page.

The prior revision states:

“this system is referred to as typesetters' quotation because many typographers favor it for aesthetic reasons.”

This contradicts Quotation mark#Punctuation (for reference, this revision), which states:

“The printing press required that the easily damaged smallest pieces of type for the comma and period be protected behind the more robust quotation marks.” (AUE: FAQ excerpt: ", vs ,")

I will thus change the MoS to reflect this, with citation.

Nbarth (email) (talk) 00:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Done! Here is the diff, and new revision.

Nbarth (email) (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I would revert this; aesthetic punctation may have originated in technical necessity, but it has been retained long after the technical necessity ceased to exist. I might add the CMS comment that it is preferred because "logical" punctuation is harder to do with the precision expected of a professional publication; copyediting it requires collation with the original text being quoted. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The text in question describes the reasons behind the name 'typesetters' quotation'. Whether and why the quotation convention has been retained is irrelevant.

"I might add the CMS comment that it is preferred because "logical" punctuation is [...]". Preferred by CMS does not mean preferred by Wikipedia. Ilkali (talk) 19:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

But it is not the reason for the name, because it is not the reason typesetters use it. Nor is it Wikipedia's preference beyond a small group of provincial language-reformers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

"use it" is present tense. The name was coined in the past. Ilkali (talk) 20:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

If typesetters had ceased to use the system, the name would also have gone out of use, and we would have no need to discuss it. It is called "typesetters' punctuation" because typesetters do use it, and they do not use it because of nineteenth-century practicalities. (In fact, we have no need to discuss the reason anyway; both names belong in the article, and may be mentioned here, but we have an encyclopedia for matters of fact.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

"It is called "typesetters' punctuation" because typesetters do use it". Do all typesetters use it? Do they use it more than other people? I think you are talking nonsense. It is referred to by that name because it has always been referred to by that name. Ilkali (talk) 20:36, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Do they use it more than other people? Yes, of course they do; until the advent of desktop publication, very few other people worried about it at all. And those that did called it aesthetic punctuation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Quotation query

I am aware that as a result of frequent and endless debate, MoS favours so-called "logical quotation". However, the guidelines don't seem to be very clear on what this means. At the moment they say that punctuation marks "are placed inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation". According to the MoS, when a sentence fragment is quoted, "the period is outside." However, in this case, am I not allowed to put the period inside, because it is part of the text (MoS) that I am quoting? Or does "sense of the punctuation" carry some more subtle meaning? I note that the MoS itself has, later on

"She said that she 'would not allow this.' "

with the period inside a sentence fragment where the original statement was "I would not allow this." (Period inside again.) Either the first "deplorable" example is misleading (because it appears to be quoting an example where "deplorable" is at the end of the quoted sentence), or the rest is confusing. What gives? Geometry guy 09:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the latter case (which is in an unrelated section on brackets) is probably a case of the MoS not observing itself. I would use that she "would not allow this". . Ilkali (talk) 09:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't make sense to me. The whole principle of logical quotation is to remain true to the source, so if the source ends in a period, why not include it in the quote? This tells readers that the quotee's sentence did not continue. It should at least be permitted, if not required.

The issue is more stark if one compares with quoted questions. Geometry guy rarely copyedits his talk page contributions, so he can be verbose, hence it is best to quote him in fragments. For instance as part of a long post he asks "if the source ends in a period, why not include it in the quote?" The question mark has to go inside – despite the fact that it's a sentence fragment! Questions are not the only issue either: did you notice Geometry guy exclaiming "it's a sentence fragment!"? The shock is his; we remain calm, but we certainly don't want to quote "despite the fact that". Geometry guy 19:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

My understanding of logical quoting is that any meaningful elements are retained - exclamation and question marks fall under this category. I think the sentence fragment clause is a little poorly motivated and would personally prefer a system where all non-meaningful terminal punctuation is omitted. In the current system, for example, would we use the following?

Ilkali said "I like kittens." and "I hate badgers."

The period in that first sentence is awful, because without looking ahead it's not clear if it ends the entire sentence or just the nested one. Does it really matter where the quoted sentence ends? Whether's there's more text in the sentence or not, a diligent reader always has to assume there might be more text somewhere in the source that retracts or recontextualises the quote. What's wrong with the following?

Ilkali said "I like kittens" and "I hate badgers".

Ilkali (talk) 20:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Nothing, in my view, but there is also nothing wrong with

Ilkali said "I like kittens" and "I hate badgers."

I think we have to permit both and let editors decide which best conveys the "sense" of the quotations. Whatever we do, the guidelines need to be clarified, because they are causing unnecessary disputes between editors at the moment. Geometry guy 21:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

"there is also nothing wrong with [...]". Well, with the exception that it's not particularly logical. I think there's some value to consistency, so I am usually against policies of "let editors decide". Can you indicate exactly what part of the current wording is unclear? Ilkali (talk) 23:48, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Why is it not logical? Suppose the full quotation were "I like kittens. I hate badgers." Then, according to MoS, the final period would have to go inside the quotation because it is not a sentence fragment but a full sentence. On the other hand, one might punctuation your quotation as "I like kittens; I hate badgers." Now "I hate badgers" is a sentence fragment, and the MoS seems to require that the punctuation goes outside. I fail to see any logic going on here. A period can be a meaningful element too and some human judgement is evidently required to punctuate well. Geometry guy 07:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

"Why is it not logical?" Because the punctuation in question operates on the nesting sentence, not the nested one. To put it inside the quotation is to put it in the wrong scope. If it weren't for the limitations of mechanical printing presses, nobody would ever have started doing it. Ilkali (talk) 09:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

In GGuy's hypothesis, the period is both in the nesting sentence and in the nested one. If the quoted text were (as it often is) a full sentence or a full paragraph, would Ilkali insist on moving the final period only outside the quotation marks? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:02, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not about 'moving'. We have two separate sentences (one nested, one nesting), each of which can be given a terminating period. We could include both of them, like so:

Ilkali said "This is a sentence.".

But that looks pretty ugly. In this situation, logical and typesetters' quoting would omit the external period. In typesetters' quoting (but not logical quoting), this makes it impossible to tell if a terminal internal period actually terminates the nested sentence, since it would be there either way. My own personal preference (which I do not exercise in Wikipedia article space) is to omit the internal one. I argued for this policy above.

The only policy that involves moving punctuation is typesetters' quoting, in the case where the quoted text does not end in a punctuation symbol but one from the nesting sentence is inserted into it. Ilkali (talk) 18:29, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

But if the passage were:

Ilkali said, "I like kittens but I hate badgers".

"Badger is the common name for any animal of three subfamilies, which belong to the family Mustelidae: the same mammal family as the ferrets, the weasels, the otters, and several other types of carnivore. I think ferrets stink and will not put up with their relatives."

Ilkali's preference would result either in inconsistency between the two paragraphs, or in a violation of invariable idiom in the second. I would not prohibit either, but I do not see that one is more logical than the other. He is correct in saying that

Ilkali said "This is a sentence.".

would be clumsy; indeed, it is incorrect. But either period may be removed without impairing the accuracy of the quotation or the clarity of the sentence. If the presence of the period after sentence were the point at issue, omitting the internal period would be unfair quotation, but that is a different, and rare, issue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Your example makes no sense to me. How is the first part (Ilkali said [...]) supposed to be related to the second ("Badger is the [...]")? Ilkali (talk) 19:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

So? I did put in a connection, the bit about ferrets, but I was just looking for enough text to make a paragraph. I could have (and probably should have) used Lorem ipsum; the point about punctuation would remain. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Make it therefore:

Ilkali said: "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod tempor incididunt ut labore et dolore magna aliqua".

"Ut enim ad minim veniam, quis nostrud exercitation ullamco laboris nisi ut aliquip ex ea commodo consequat. Duis aute irure dolor in reprehenderit in voluptate velit esse cillum dolore eu fugiat nulla pariatur. Excepteur sint occaecat cupidatat non proident, sunt in culpa qui officia deserunt mollit anim id est laborum."

The first paragraph quotes a sentence; the second is a quoted paragraph. One ends, by Ilkali's rule, with a period; the second with a quote mark. Where's the logic? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

My words: "I [...] would personally prefer a system where all non-meaningful terminal punctuation is omitted". By my 'rule', the second paragraph would end with is est laborum"., not is est laborum.". Note that expressing my personal preferences does not mean I am petitioning for a change to the MoS. Ilkali (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Good. This personal preference is so unusual (and does any style guide support it?) that it may be worth, for once, recommending against it. It is as illogical as aesthetic punctuation, without the aesthetic and practical advantages of wrapping whole paragraphs in quotes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I would explain how you are wrong, but it doesn't matter anyway and you've shown remarkable resistance to understanding things that I say. Let's revive this later, when you've started editing your own POV into the section against consensus. Ilkali (talk) 20:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I apologise for the above incivility. There's no point getting snippy over something that doesn't even affect the MoS. Ilkali (talk) 22:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The second example is correct. It is so easy. Look if the quoted material starts with a capital letter or not. If the former, the period should be inside; if the latter, use otherwise. However, there are some examples that omit beginning part of a sentence. For example, "... would explain how you are wrong, but it doesn't matter anyway and you've shown remarkable resistance to understanding things that I say." The period is inside because the quoted material is still complete, emphasized by the use of the comma before the quotation as well the ellipsis. --Efe (talk) 12:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "correct" here. My use of a different convention is not a consequence of not understanding logical quoting, it is a consequence of thinking logical quoting is stupid. All either of us have is preferences. But as I already said, I follow Wikipedia's preference when editing articles. Ilkali (talk) 12:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, Im just helping others clear out this discussion. So if your now following Wiki's preference, then, this issue is "resolved". Cheers. --Efe (talk) 12:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

What issue? I'm "now" following the MoS? I always have. I said so at the very start of my discussion with PManderson. This section wasn't made to discuss my preferences - they were just described in passing - but to question whether the manual violates its own quotation convention. Ilkali (talk) 12:53, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Ilkali. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I intend to clarify this part of the MoS, drawing on the discussion here. Also, I think the whole "Note" on the rationale for MoS policy is out-of-date and largely redundant. The MoS should present clear guidelines to editors, not complicated rationales on how those guidelines were arrived at. However, the key reason for logical quotation (faithfulness to the source) should still be mentioned. Geometry guy 19:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, done. It may need tweaking. Geometry guy 16:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks good to me, G-Guy. For the record, the previous language also had some logic to it that hasn't been mentioned yet: the idea was to throw the period or comma outside the quotation marks whenever you could come up with a reasonable excuse to do so, because a period or comma inside is sometimes misinterpreted, especially in American English, but the period or comma outside never is. But your language is fine, won't hurt anything, and will seem less officious to some, IMO. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 03:28, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation inside/outside quotation marks

Pardon me for bringing up something you've no doubt covered before. Here's a quote from MoS at present: "Punctuation marks are placed inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation". Up till very recently I took this to mean: "only put the punctuation inside the quotation marks if it would be nonsensical to have it outside, ok?" But now I examine the examples given, I reach the conclusion that the punctuation should be outside the quotation marks only if "a clause or phase is quoted", but "If a whole sentence is quoted then the fullstop should be inside the quotation marks." This means that a perfectly innocuous passage of text could have a visually inconsistent appearance. Firstly, can I double-check that this is what is intended by the rule? (The wording as it is at the moment has confused at least one person!) Secondly, it would be good if someone could reword that sentence to remove the touch of ambiguity. Thank you! almost-instinct 22:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

That is confusing, and it didn't use to be worded that way, but much more clearly, saying basically: Include the punctuation inside the quotation marks only if the punctuation was part of the original quotation, otherwise always put the punctuation outside the quotation marks. This is known as "logical quotation" (also called by some "British quotation", though that is a misnomer; some major British newspapers use interior or "typographic" quotation as do most US ones). Logical quotation is favored in technical and other exacting disciplines, because it is more precise and less likely to lead to quotation errors.

Example: I said "It's really hot today" in a neutral tone. Someone can't believe I said that, because they feel cold, and they quote me saying this, with incredulity. In "typographic" quotation, this must be rendered "I can't believe SMcCandlish just said 'it's really hot today!'". This is both a misquotation, strictly speaking, and (for those familiar with this quotation style) a fatal ambiguity - readers who (like most Americans) are used to being uncertain whether terminal punctuation really belongs to the original quotation or not will also be uncertain whether I shouted or whether the quoter of my expression is astounded. WP, like most non-US publications, just avoids this mess entirely. In logical quotation "I can't believe SMcCandlish just said 'it's really hot today'!" and "I can't believe SMcCandlish just said 'it's really hot today!' are very distinct and unambiguous.

Anyway, the text in the guideline on this needs to be improved (e.g. by reverting to what it used to say, or by fixing what it says now to be clearer, like what it used to say). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 11:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the depth of your answer ... unfortunately my confusion exists on a far, far more banal level. Because the opening line says

Punctuation marks are placed inside the quotation marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation

I took this to imply that fullstops shold be always outside the the quotation marks, whether the quote was a phrase or a sentence. So, since reading that, every time I've tidied up a page I changed something that looks thus:

Many people agree that "people who tidy punctuation in wikipedia articles need to get out more."

to something like this:

Most people think that "spending hours fiddling around with punctuation—and then getting it wrong—is truly tragic".

If this was wrong, then I've an awful lot of clearing up to do. Yours, crestfallen, almost-instinct 22:58, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

This is fine. Tony (talk) 01:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that looks fine to me, too. It's not even problematic to quote a full sentence but put the period outside; the problematic part is insertion of punctuation that does not belong to the quoted passage into the quotation, as this falsifies the quoted material. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:13, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Logical quotation merge proposed

The weird page at Wikipedia:Logical quotation is a prime candidate for an immediate merge. It is written like a stub article, but tagged as an essay. It is quite short, and the language in it is better on its microtopic than the wording presently in WP:MOS#Quotation marks. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Yep, but shouldn't there be a short article on this topic? It needs a little tweaking and citations if it's to stay as a separate article, though; I have no problem if we borrow from it, whether it's retained as an article or not. Tony (talk) 07:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Arguably there should be, but this ain't it. :-) — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 07:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest merging anything useful in the article and then deleting it. I moved it out of article space because there aren't any reliable secondary sources on the subject: as far as I can tell the terminology is mostly internal to Wikipedia. Geometry guy 22:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Right. Obviously not good article material. — SMcCandlish [talk] [