Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/India-related articles

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Use of Slokas[edit]

Can we use slokas in articles. A on going debate is at Talk:Sritattvanidhi#Why do we need the slokas???. I think this may be incorpoareted into this MOS. Amartyabag TALK2ME 06:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Scope of this project[edit]

So far the main development here is the incorporation of most of the content of Wikipedia: Naming conventions (Indic). I suggest that that Naming convention article should remain separate and active, and that this Manual of Style should only make reference to the it for appropriate cases. Reasons;

  • that naming convention would also apply to articles that were not specific to India (the modern country); including articles about some of the neighbouring countries, and to the Pali language.
  • that article was always intended to deal with old Indian languages (for history, religion and so on). India has names that do not derive from Indic languages. These include Arabic, Persian, and English names.
  • the naming convention was not intended or written with modern names in mind. For a current example, the naming convention (or this manual of style) would be of little help in the recent dispute over Bengaluru / Bangalore, which is the sort of thing that should be addressed here. (According to the naming convention, Bangalore should be renamed Bengalūru, not Bengaluru, and I don't suppose anyone will support that). The existing, very sketchy 'Modern names' section should be expanded to deal with these.

Imc 15:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Biographical naming conventions[edit]

Editors behind this proposal may wish to step in at Talk:Mohandas_Karamchand_Gandhi#Full_name (see also the immediately preceding discussions) where there is a discussion about whether to change the article name of Mahatma Gandhi. Currently it is named 'Mohandas Gandhi' while others are in favour of 'Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi', while other prefer the original 'Mahatma Gandhi'. This MOS for India-related articles has been invoked at the current discussion but, despite saying so on the MOS articlespace that 'Mahatma Gandhi' is preferred, there is doubt as to whether this should be implemented on account of this MOS being a proposed guideline. So, in any case, editors may wish to step in over there and contribute their thoughts. Thanks, Ekantik talk 19:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Resurrection of this MoS page[edit]

A recent decision on the use of indic scripts in the leads of India-related articles was made (see main discussion here and clarification here). This decision has not been properly communicated and User:DeltaQuad and I agree that it should be placed in the Manual of Style somewhere. The most appropriate place would be in this India-related articles subpage, but it is currently inactive. Surely there are now enough India-related article to warrant the resurrection of these guidelines. What are your thoughts? Bazonka (talk) 08:56, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I did not realise that this section of MOS had ever existed. By all means, resurrect it after a period of review. I'll wander through the thing over the next few hours. - Sitush (talk) 09:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
One for a section on lead sections: WT:INB reached a consensus sometime mid/late 2011 that specific varna status should not be referred to in the lead section of caste/community articles. I'll try to find the link to the discussion. - Sitush (talk) 09:09, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
This may be that varna discussion, although it seemed to deteriorate into a "bash Sitush" type of thread. Nothing new, then! - Sitush (talk) 09:26, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I can't be bothered to read all of that discussion now, but assumuing a decision was reached (which isn't clear from the little I've read), then that's exactly the sort of thing that should be in this MoS article. Bazonka (talk) 09:41, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm no expert on India topics, so I will defer to the wider community: is there anything that's currently in this MoS article that shouldn't be there or needs to change? If not, I suggest taking the inactive template off the top, and relinking it into Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (regional), etc. We can then start to improve it with stuff about varnas and indic scripts and so on. Bazonka (talk) 09:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that it needs some discussion before the template is removed. For example, I can see that some people might have problems with the guideline preferring British English and Indian units (lakhs etc). If this is made active now then some pretty fundamental concepts are raised to the status of something that has current consensus when in fact the consensus may have changed. We need a structured discussion here of the various aspects. I emphasis structured because my experience is that discussion of such things tend to deteriorate pretty fast.- Sitush (talk) 09:59, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree. One option would be to remove anything remotely controversial from the page, and make the uncontroversial stuff active (even if there isn't very much). Then separate discussions can be held about each controversial part, rather than one big amorphous bunfight of a discussion. The MoS page can then grow over time as (and if) consensus is reached for each discussion. Bazonka (talk) 10:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I cannot really comment on the transliteration bit (I am monoglottal) but the section regarding district naming is also currently being discussed. Tbh, I do not think that there is much in the inactive version that does not require review. The only dead cert is probably the recent RfC regarding scripts in lead sections. - Sitush (talk) 11:28, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this needs to be resurrected. IMO, the following are controversial:

  • Scope: "Religions originating in India, including Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism. Articles on Buddhism may follow this convention, Mythology of India" All wikiProjects related to Indian Religions need to be consulted before imposing the MOS on articles related to them
  • "Use only British English spellings as per the guidelines for India related pages": change to Indian English??? Eg. the word cock is usually used in Indian English for "the adult male of the domestic chicken", however America (or Britain not sure) use the vulgar connotation. The word "rooster" can be used in American English in this context.
  • This is another proposed addition to the naming convention needs to be updated
  • "However, exceptions may apply to individuals who are widely known by an honorific name or with a title. Examples are Mahatma Gandhi where Mahatma is an honorific" The page is no more at the title Mahatma Gandhi. The honorifics are dropped. Need to update the honorific policy and form a consensus
  • "Naming and transliteration" is controversial. There are many written totally in IAST eg. Bhaṭṭikāvya, which are affected. Needs to be discussed.

IMO, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic) (linked in here) also needs to be discussed and made a policy, rather than proposed one. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:16, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

MOS is now live[edit]

Since no-one objected to the resurrection of this page, I have made a few amendments and reinstated it under Category:Wikipedia Manual of Style (regional). The changes that I have made to it are:

  1. A few non-controversial spelling and punctuation fixes.
  2. Removal of the "Geographic articles" section because each of its subsections was disputed. I would recommend discussing and reinstating this as soon as possible.
  3. Change the spelling guideline from use of only British English to use of only Indian English. This seemed like an obvious change.
  4. Removal of text about religion and mythology as per User:Redtigerxyz's concern above.
  5. Removal of the "Naming and transliteration" section as per User:Redtigerxyz's concern above.
  6. Removal of text about people who are widely known by honorific titles, as per User:Redtigerxyz's concern above.

I have not included anything about the decision mentioned above not to use Indic scripts in the leads of articles. This seems like a controversial decision requiring further discussion and consensus. The points raised above by User:Redtigerxyz also require further discussion. Bazonka (talk) 09:04, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Conflicting policies[edit]

At Wikipedia:WikiProject India#Indic scripts in lead § Notes, it says that Indic script is not to be used in the lede sentence of an article:

There is community consensus that the lead sentence of an article should not contain any regional or Indic language script. It is suggested that IPA be used for help with pronunciation. For details, refer to this RfC: Native languages in lead.

However, at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/India-related articles § Preferred format for introducing the article subject, it says that Indic script is to be used in the lede and gives the example:

'''Sikhism''' ({{indic|lang=pa|defaultipa='siːkɪz(ə)m|defaultaudio=Seekism.ogg|indic=ਸਿੱਖੀ|trans=sikkhī|indicipa='sɪk.kʰiː| indicaudio=Sikkhi.ogg}}) is a ...
Sikhism (['siːkɪz(ə)m]Punjabiਸਿੱਖੀ, sikkhī['sɪk.kʰiː] ?) is a ...

This is more consistent with article practice, too.

So, which is it? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 06:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Translations in Infoboxes[edit]

In Infoboxes for places, there are the parameters |name=, |official_name=, |other_name=, |native_name=, and |native_name_lang= (ignoring the tranlit* params for now). The first three are specified to be in English with Latin script.

The question is what to do with the others. The fact that |native_name_lang= exists says to me that the design is to support the predominant non-English language/non-Latin script name of the place, like:


or this, using the {{Lang-hi}} template wrapper around the script to prepend the Hindi link:

Hindi: शाहजहाँपुर

The notes say that if multiple names/languages are to be specified, to wrap the names in {{Lang|xx}}, but this doesn't specify which language the names are in like {{Lang-xx}} does. Example:

  • Hindi: कश्मीर
  • Urdu: کشمیر‎

What about pronunciation guides, like /klˈkɑːtɑː/? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 09:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

BTW, this came up because of a string of edits by User:, adding Indic script names to |native_name= on various articles on places without moving what alternative names were already there or changing/adding the language to native_name_lang. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 10:30, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you familiar with WP:INDICSCRIPT and the various discussions that gave rise to it and that have subsequently taken place at WT:INB? - Sitush (talk) 10:32, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, you've posted two queries in two sections, and I missed the one above. Clearly, you are aware to some extent. The quick solution that avoids all this mess and more is not to have the scripts anywhere. They cause a phenomenal number of problems, including outright vandalism that doesn't get picked up because insufficient contributors can understand the scripts. - Sitush (talk) 10:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

City names[edit]

Is there a convention for handling new/old city names, (Mumbai/Bombay), specifically in historical articles? Thanks for the help! Lfstevens (talk) 04:26, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Use the name that was used at the time the event occurred. This can be especially important for some geographical entities; for example, British India was geographically very different to India as it is known today. - Sitush (talk) 17:14, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Handling numbers[edit]

I have just amended the wording here. - Sitush (talk) 10:50, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Alphabetical order for names[edit]

When a list of personal names in an India-related article is sorted alphabetically, which name order should be used for sorting? If the family name is usually placed last (western order) then a list of names should probably be sorted by the last name. I am looking at Sir Jamsetjee Jeejebhoy School of Art#Famous alumni, which is currently sorted by the full name, so that Francis Newton Souza is listed before John Fernandes. In a European or a North-American article I would change this. What should be the convention for India-related articles? Verbcatcher (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Naming conventions[edit]

This article says "After the initial mention of any name, the person may be referred to by surname only." This is not always true. Many people use the personal name. For example, see R. K. Narayan, where he is known by his personal name (Narayanan) and not his surname (Rasipuram, actually village name). Anbumani Ramadoss is Anbumani, son of Dr. Ramadoss. Another example is V. Anand, sometimes wrongly expanded as Vishwanathan Anand. (Anand is his given name and the correct expansion is Anand Vishwanathan.) Also, "The last name or the family name is placed before the first name for Telugu people." This is also found in Kerala, as in V. S. Achuthanandan, where Velikkakathu is his surname, and Achuthanandan his given name. As far as I know, this style is restricted to South India. Jose Mathew (talk) 11:23, 6 February 2016 (UTC)