Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

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Disagreement of use of establishment date/disestablishment date categories for USAF articles[edit]

@Lineagegeek: and I have behaved a bit badly and conducted a bit of a slow-motion edit war on the date categories attached to United States Air Force units and formations. Briefly, I want to, and have, been putting the estab/disestab dates in that match the years that the article subject unit - like Air Rescue Service was active, formed c. 1944 and disestablished 1966. I argue that doing that is the only way they will show up properly in the year/date categories. If one doesn't do this, the disestablishment date category doesn't work properly.

Lineagegeek's view is that when a unit is redesignated, eg. the Air Rescue Service became the Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service in 1966, it has not been disestablished, only redesignated, so he removes the disestablishment date categories. You will see from the edit history of Air Rescue Service that that is what he's just done.

He argues that because the unit has a continuing history, under a different name, the disestablishment categories should not be added to the former names under which the unit has served. We need some third opinions here to make a decision, because we both think that we're right.

Lineagegeek, I've tried to put this as objectively and hopefully as fairly as possible, but please feel free to add your side of the story. Regards to all, Buckshot06 (talk) 14:06, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I've waited nearly a week to respond and it's beginning to appear that we're the only interested parties. I think you could have found better examples, though. The change from Air Rescue Service to Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Service in 1966 was entirely cosmetic. The same units were assigned (although they changed their names from "Air Rescue" or "Air Recovery" to "Aerospace Rescue and Recovery". The same people went to work in the same red brick building at Scott Air Force Base and did the same things they did the day before the name change. Aerospace was a big buzz word in the USAF in the 1960s, and the capsule recovery mission gave ARS the opportunity to put that word in its name. I think its a stretch to make this an establishment of a unit or formation."
For lack of a better guideline, I use the criteria used by the United States Air Force and its predecessors. [1], [2] and [3] all have appendices that go into more detail, but USAF units and their predecessors are "established" according to these parameters if they are constituted (or in some cases reconstituted), designated (for MAJCON units) or authorized (for really old units). I don't think changes of name count as establishments, though. Otherwise, the categories for unit establishment would pile up with all the wings, groups and squadrons that went from "troop carrier" to "tactical airlift" in 1967, from "air transport" to "military airlift" in 1966, from "bombardment" to "bomb" in 1991, etc. --Lineagegeek (talk) 11:24, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Not George Patton[edit]

General Patton.jpg

Can anyone identify this person? I found it classified as General George Patton, which seems strange to me, since he doesn't look anything like him, and he seems to be wearing a British/Commonwealth Brigadier insignia. He looks irritatingly familiar though (Hohum @) 17:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

It is by an artist called Leo Arthur Robitschek. A somewhat obscure artist who appears to have lived in Mandatory Palestine. He has several works that I could find by googling. His works have Jerusalem or TransJordan inscribed on them. Interesting. This would indicate an officer in a Middle East formation or command. Irondome (talk) 19:31, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
He also drew Air Marshal Tedder in Jerusalem in 1942, so he was not that obscure Irondome (talk) 19:49, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Looking at his rank insignia, he appears to be a British or Commonwealth Brigadier. Alansplodge (talk) 20:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
This uploader has uploaded nothing but Robitschek drawings, there seems to have been a prior issue at Commons with these, so I've raised the concern at OTRS over there, pointing out the fact that there is no way this is Patton. MSJapan (talk) 00:23, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
The uploader is apparently the painter’s son; could be worth trying to contact directly for background & to find out how the error may have occurred.—Odysseus1479 00:40, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
That is a good plan. Actually Mr. Robitschek's work seems very accomplished. Having had Tedder's attention he was evidently well-regarded locally. The subject could well have been one of 8th Army's more notable brigadiers. Starting to have a trawl through them. It seriously needs re-titling though. Irondome (talk) 00:58, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Any chance it's General William Peyton?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 01:00, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Nah. Gen Peyton had gone to the great officers mess in the sky way before then. He died in '31. Peyton was already a General in 1914. Irondome (talk) 01:04, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
There is a strong resemblance to John Harding, 1st Baron Harding of Petherton who would have held Brigadier rank in the early 42 timeframe Irondome (talk) 01:35, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
Okay, I keyed on Patton/Peyton after first wondering if there had been a British General Patton.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 02:22, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Well, I've looked at countless pictures of Battens, Peytons etc.; British, Australian, New Zealander and Canadian brigadiers, officers in Palestine, and come up with diddly squat. (Hohum @) 18:39, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Can anyone make out the text in the lower left of the image? I Googled for a larger version of the image, btw, with no joy.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:02, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately I think it's Robitschek's own name, plus Jerusalem and a year. See this for a comparison. Ranger Steve Talk 19:20, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
And Tedder. Ranger Steve Talk 19:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
<sigh>--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:48, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm struggling to find a picture of Harding sans headgear, but he was certainly a staff officer (note the staff tabs on the drawing) at Middle East Command at that time. Alansplodge (talk) 08:56, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
If these pictures are of him, I don't think that's who the drawing is of... Ranger Steve Talk 09:16, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Looking at the medal ribbons, looks like he has bars to 2 decorations. Nthep (talk) 09:34, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
The first one looks like the DSO and Bar. Doesn't narrow it down very much, unfortunately! -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:16, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
There was a James Ronald Patten, who held the rank of brigadier serving in the Mediterranean at about the time [4]. No images available online, I am afraid. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 17:31, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
If this site is to be believed... the eyebrows and nose look a bit different. Ranger Steve Talk 18:22, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Operation Dragon Return[edit]

Hello. I had a question about the creation of a possible redirect. According to User:Skysmith/Missing topics about Soviet Union, Dragon Returnees were Nazi scientists taken to Soviet Union after the World War Two. Is this another name for Operation Osoaviakhim or a completely separate operation? Thanks. (talk) 11:59, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

It's the same thing. See also Russian Alsos. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:52, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Military Image Copyright[edit]

Hello, there is a category at Category:United States military images and it states that Images taken or made by US military are Under United States copyright law, such images are public domain. I've just written this article here: Wilhelm Tranow, and on the off chance I searched Google images for a picture of the man, and came across a picture of him, here @: [[5]]. Is that image copyright under US law? Its obviously a image take sometime before or during the second world war. It has obviously been taken from some archive, originally by TICOM who were US and British military searching the continent for military assets they could filch but these folk who are now selling it. What I'm fundamentally asking, is there a process which I can do through to get hold of this image? Can an argument be made that it is in the public domain? Thanks. scope_creep 14:26, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

The image's record on that database says it's from the "Jay Robert Nash Collection". Googling the term returns this page on the same database which says that "The Jay Robert Nash Collection, exclusively distributed by CRIA, consists of more than six million (6,000,000) historical images in the public domain which Nash collected over a four-decade period" but then goes on to claim that the company is being very noble about selling the images at a low price. If in fact the image is PD, it's free to use for any purpose and the company has no way to make you pay for it. The database doesn't say that the image is PD US military though - this looks like an ID photo or mugshot, so it could have been created during his employment by the German government or by an Allied intelligence/POW processing unit after the war. Nick-D (talk) 23:41, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Copyright query[edit]

[6] does this Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 New Zealand Licence mean that the map is available to copy on Wikipedia? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:52, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. Nick-D (talk) 09:55, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, I live in fear of the Wiki copyright-vio Mafia. ;O)) Keith-264 (talk) 10:13, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, although... I think that from the wiki's perspective, they no longer hold the copyright on which to issue a Share Alike licence. I think from a wiki perspective you'd want a Crown Copyright expired licence tag (to cover the underlying Ordnance Survey copyright), a US pre-1924 publication tag and a author life+70 tag, since Colonel Stewart died in 1934, and then give a link to the Creative Commons release in case someone is using it in NZ, the UK or somewhere else that follows a non-US interpretation of reproducing 2D works. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:17, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Front line Menin road, Polderhoek, Reutel, 5 December 1917
like this? Keith-264 (talk) 10:39, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
I've tweaked slightly - see what you think. (NB: pls revert if you think I've got it wrong!) Hchc2009 (talk) 11:17, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm rather pleased that my footling effort was so close to a bull's-eye. Thanks, I'll remember the format. Keith-264 (talk) 11:23, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Let's collectively keep the mafia at bay... ;) Hchc2009 (talk) 11:26, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Aircraft GAN needing attention[edit]

G'day all, Rogožarski IK-3 is a Yugoslav aircraft article that has been in the GA queue since December last year. Any aircraft aficionados who would like to have a look would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:16, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Aircraft isn't exactly my specialty, but I'll try to clear the article from the backlog. Biblio (talk) WikiProject Reforming Wikipedia. 15:50, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Ask on the Aircraft project page (WT:Air) also. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:58, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Notability presumptions[edit]

Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)#Notability in Knight's Cross Holder Articles. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:38, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Otto Kittel[edit]

Hey folks, I would welcome WW2 buff input for the above article in making it ship shape.

Otto Kittel, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article.

--CCCVCCCC (talk) 05:41, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Otto Kittel/1
Re-listing link for easy access for anyone who may be interested in commenting, accordingly. Kierzek (talk) 18:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Standardization of Civil War Regiment article names?[edit]

Hello all - Do we have a preferred set of naming conventions for individual regiments' articles, and also for defaultsorting them in categories? For instance, I am looking at Category:New York Civil War regiments and there are different naming conventions for like articles - In other words, should "75th New York Volunteer Infantry" be "75th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment"? Or, should "74th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment" be "74th New York Volunteer Infantry"? Also, things like the 7th whatever being sorted below the 70th whatever can cause confusion to users.

   70th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
   71st New York Infantry
   72nd New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
   73rd New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
   74th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
   75th New York Volunteer Infantry
   76th New York Volunteer Infantry
   77th New York Volunteer Infantry
   78th New York Volunteer Infantry
   79th New York Volunteer Infantry
   7th New York Heavy Artillery Regiment
   7th New York Militia
   7th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment
   7th Regiment New York Volunteer Cavalry

If no specific thoughts on this, then I might try experimenting with the naming and sorting of the New York regiments to start with, and see if any solutions strike me. Any thoughts on this, please let me know. Thanks KConWiki (talk) 16:07, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

I know WP:COMMONNAME applies, but I'm a big fan of consistency. The sorting problem can be solved by using {{DEFAULTSORT:07}} or {{DEFAULTSORT:007}} (if there are "century" numbered unites involved) on the unit page for the 7th.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 22:11, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks - I am good on how to make the Defaultsorting happen, but I wasn't sure if there had been discussions elsewhere already on the specifics. Let me leave this out here for others to comment on if they like. KConWiki (talk) 23:18, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Note that the need for custom sorting to get numbers in the right order will soon no longer be necessary—touch wood—once the necessary changes have been made in the guts of the MediaWiki software: see WT:Categorization#OK to switch English Wikipedia's category collation to uca-default?Odysseus1479 23:47, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
That's good to know.Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 00:37, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Can I ask why we want the article names standardized? Certainly we might want some standardization, especially for sorting, but the regiment names were not, I think, perfectly standardized historically. For instance, searching, it seems the 74th New York Volunteer Infantry Regiment was much more commonly known as the "Fifth Excelsior". On fold3 records, I also see "74th New York infantry" and "74th New York State Volunteer Infantry". A New York Adjutant General volume calls it the "74th New York State Volunteer Infantry" and the "5th Regiment (Excelsior Brigade)" [7]. The Dyer compendium uses "74th Regiment Infantry" and "5th Excelsior" [8]. Also, by the way, the 74th New York State Militia is a different organization which contributed men to other NY Volunteer Infantry units, mostly the 21st. Historians today, as evidenced by google books and google scholar, don't seem to feel the need to standardize either. Smmurphy(Talk) 06:50, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
I believe there are minor differences in the official designations of Civil War units that really shouldn't matter. Taking your first exemplar, I think you will find that the most common reference to the unit will be to the "74th New York". Mostly because of lower numbered units, I believe that the branch needs to be added, and because of the existence of numbered battalions as well, my preferred usage would be "74th New York Infantry Regiment", with the addition of "Volunteer" only when needed as a discriminator.
I am also a big unfan of the use of default sorting. My experience is that when an article has multiple categories, the default sort only works well for one of them. I much prefer using something like [[74th New York Infanry Regiment|074 New York Infantry]]. The 5th Regiment issue with this unit can be easily solved by a redirect. --Lineagegeek (talk) 22:49, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Siege of Arrah[edit]

I have recently created this article - Siege of Arrah - and I have submitted a request for peer review here. I would appreciate feedback from the Military History Wikiproject (preferring this to feedback from unrelated history projects) so if you have time, please feel free to have a look. Thanks! Exemplo347 (talk) 18:15, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Obvious military portraits and the Wikimedia Commons[edit]

I notice there are obvious military portraits of the victim (Tracie McBride) and the perpetrator (Louis Jones) of the Murder of Tracie McBride: Both of them were soldiers. What info needs to be gathered to confirm this so I can put the portraits on the Wikimedia Commons? WhisperToMe (talk) 21:16, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Clear evidence that the photo was taken by a US government employee as part of their official duties, or has been released under a Commons-friendly license. Nick-D (talk) 11:42, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:SOLDIER and WW2 Knight's Cross holders[edit]

I often view the Fringe Theories noticeboard and I saw something about Knight's Cross holders, which is being discussed here: [9]. The discussion focuses on WP:SOLDIER and the deletion of a number of articles about Knight's Cross holders (Ritterkreuztraeger, RKT) has been justified by the argument that the Knight's Cross was not necessarily the "highest award for valor" mentioned in WP:SOLDIER. There is a legitimate case (Peter Arent) of a person who was never awarded the RK. The other cases appear to be ones where removal of one or two specific sources as "unreliable" results in an apparent absence of sources supporting the RK award. I noted that new RKTs were listed in German daily newspapers, often on the front pages. Newspapers even mentioned when an RKT was going to be present at a public event.

I do not like the way old essays and "what Wikipedia is not" guidelines are used; they were written for a time when, I guess, Wikipedia was at real risk of becoming a repository for random facts about Star Trek and Pokemon. The spirit of WP:SOLDIER appears to be "you can't create an article about your soldier relative," and the only statement about a non-notable soldier is precisely that: one who can only be traced with genealogical documents. Now we are at a point where most of the extremely important articles exist and are in need of improvement, and new articles must be drawn from a pool of less notable subjects that are nevertheless notable.

It's interesting that searching for the subjects of the deleted articles (like Alois Kalss) locates a) evidence that the individual existed and was a RKT, b) mirrors of deleted articles from Wikipedia, and c) articles on right-wing wikis. Not allowing the article to exist on English Wikipedia contributes to the illusion of bias in this encyclopedia. And it unfairly creates a higher standard for German soldiers than for American and British (but not Russian) ones, in that multiple secondary sources (read: Google-searchable books in English) can be called for in order to satisfy WP:SOLDIER and the equally unrealistic WP:GNG. (I've also patrolled new articles fairly often, and lots of utterly un-notable ones get created, while nomination for deletion seems to require an article running afoul of an editor willing to nominate.)

So, was this what the authors of WP:SOLDIER had in mind? I don't think it was... Roches (talk) 05:56, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Note that accepting Knight's Cross holders as inherently notable actually creates a lower standard of notability for German soldiers than for British or American soldiers, since the Knight's Cross was often awarded for actions that would have resulted in a second-level decoration in Britain or the USA as opposed to the Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor (if you read the circumstances, many of these men would have clearly received a DSO or DCM in Britain, not a VC - the ubiquitous Knight's Cross received by so many U-boat captains being a perfect case in point). That's why so many more were awarded. This is the problem with regarding recipients of a country's "highest" decoration as inherently notable; it favours countries that do not have a defined three-level decoration system as Britain, the Commonwealth and the USA do. Most countries, in fact, do not (hence the debate we have had as to whether the Legion d'honneur is France's highest decoration; it is and it isn't!). -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:05, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
It would probably be better to have this conversation in one place rather than several at the same time. I suggest there are more participants already engaged over at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people), so it should proceed there. Once that discussion has closed, we can look at any consequential amendments to SOLDIER. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Since WP:SOLDIER is at the center of this, and this is the talk page for that essay, I wanted to describe the issue here. This is also not the only time I've seen discussions based on WP:SOLDIER, so the scope is broader than just Knight's Cross holder.
I won't add anything further, however. Roches (talk) 23:48, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
Roches made a point that seems to have been missed - that about recipients receiving coverage in daily newspapers. There is a significant bias towards British military officers simply because their obituary makes the Telegraph. I have seen Majors with an MC survive AfD just because of getting a Telegraph obituary published. Why can't German newspapers be given the same level of credibility that the Telegraph enjoys? Gbawden (talk) 06:16, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

A-Class review for Divisional Cavalry Regiment (New Zealand) needs attention[edit]

Divisional Cavalry Regiment (New Zealand) needs just a few more editors to complete its A-Class review. Please help review the article. Thanks in advance, Kges1901 (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


User:Dr. Blofeld has created Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/Contests. The idea is to run a series of contests/editathons focusing on each region of Africa. He has spoken to Wikimedia about it and $1000-1500 is possible for prize money. Would anybody here be interested in contributing to one or assisting draw up core article/missing article lists? He says he's thinking of North Africa for an inaugural one in October. If interested please sign up in the participants section of the Contest page, thanks.♦ --Ser Amantio di NicolaoChe dicono a Signa?Lo dicono a Signa. 20:02, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

French Foreign Legion[edit]

Could someone have a look at History of the French Foreign Legion? It is mildly bizarre in that it is referred to in French Foreign Legion as the main article on history of the unit but frequently lacks the detail that that article has. These issues were noted by Ian Rosein 2010 but there seems to have been no improvement.Monstrelet (talk) 12:20, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Template:Campaignbox Passchendaele Suggestion[edit]

Template:Campaignbox Passchendaele Does anyone object to me altering the title of the campaignbox to The Flanders Offensive 1917 so that the contents can be labelled The Battle of Messines and The Battles of Ypres (with or without ", 1917")? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 12:32, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Over the top categorisation[edit]

I have just removed Category:Military units and formations of the United Kingdom in the War in Afghanistan (2001–14) from the No. 27 Squadron RAF article as clearly adding a campaign category for military units with nearly 100 years of history doesnt add any value and just creates loads of clutter. There are other military units in the category with multiple campaign histories but not really my area so I though I would raise it here before this categorisation spreads to other wars and campaigns, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 14:31, 23 July 2016 (UTC)