Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (clergy)

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Pope as part of the name[edit]

Consensus is against changing the the naming convention for articles about Roman Catholic popes, and also specifically against applying the naming conventions for European sovereigns to Popes. Thryduulf (talk) 16:21, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why do popes in English Wikipedia have the word Pope in the title? Saint Joan of Arc redirects to Joan of Arc. Archbishop Timothy Dolan and Timothy Cardinal Dolan both redirect to Timothy M. Dolan. President Bill Clinton redirects to Bill Clinton. Besides, many other Wikipedias don't use the word Pope. E.g. en:Pope Benedict XVI, fr:Benoît XVI, es:Benedicto XVI, de:Benedikt XVI., ru:Бенедикт XVI. Full list of interwikis in wikidata:Q2494#wb-item-q2494-sitelinks-counter. See also /Archive 1#Inclusion of titles in article names - suggest changing Pope Innocent IX to Innocent IX, etc. Fridek (talk) 15:32, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Popes are European monarchs. For European monarchs in general the following rule applies per WP:SOVEREIGN:
"These following conventions apply to European monarchs since the fall of the Western Roman Empire (but not to the Byzantine Emperors), because they share much the same stock of names. [...] Monarchies which use a completely different namestock, such as Lithuania and that of the Merovingians, need not follow this convention; there is no disambiguation to pre-empt. Kings of a people, rather than a country or a nation, (for example, the late antique Germanic tribes) usually have no disambiguator, but 'of the Goths' etc. should be added to the name if disambiguation is necessary. [...]
1. Article titles are not normally prefixed with "King", "Queen", "Emperor" or equivalent. [...]
3. Otherwise, kings, queens regnant and emperors and empresses regnant who are known as "first name + ordinal" (with the exceptions mentioned elsewhere) normally have article titles in the form '{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}'. [...] However, in some cases the title rather than the state is followed, including: [e.g.] Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor [...] William I, German Emperor [...] In a few cases consensus has been reached that the country can be omitted, because it is unnecessary, against usage or possibly problematic: Elizabeth II (rather than "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom") and Napoleon (rather than "Napoleon I of France"). It is also possible to combine a numeral with a cognomen or surname, as in John III Sobieski."
If we followed this more general naming convention, the following would happen in the example case of Benedict XVI:
  • "Pope Benedict XVI", the current title, is not acceptable as it contradicts 1.
  • "Benedict XVI of Rome", the default for European monarcs, is not acceptable as it is both problematic and against usage.
  • "Benedict XVI" would be the correct title in analogy to the "kings of a people" passage above.
This only works because Benedict XVI does not require disambiguation. For popes requiring disambiguation, such as Julius I, the argument continues as follows:
  • "Julius I" doesn't work as there was a Hungarian prince of the same name.
  • "Julius I of the Romans/Catholics/Roman Catholics" would be the correct disambiguation per the passage on "kings of a people". But it appears to me that this is against usage.
The logical solution would be to disambiguate as in "Julius I, Roman Pope" in analogy the practice for the titles Holy Roman Emperor and German Emperor.
The same problem as for popes exists for the various patriarchs (who are not monarchs but whose current naming convention also contradicts the more general principles). The solution is simpler in that case: Just strip off "Patriarch", as they are already preemptively disambiguated with "of {episcopal see}". Hans Adler 17:05, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
What is wrong with Julius I (pope)? It is the standard form of disambiguation. Besides, I am certain that more than 220 out of 265 articles would not need any form of disambiguation. Popes tend to have unique names. Surtsicna (talk) 18:05, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I see nothing wrong with "Julius I (pope)". I simply went by WP:SOVEREIGN. I don't know why that guideline departs from more general usage. Maybe it shouldn't. Either way, getting rid of "Pope" before the name will settle the current discussion whether it should really be "Pope Emeritus". Hans Adler 21:25, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
On reflection, I guess some editors consider ", German Emperor" etc. to be natural disambiguations, which are preferred to parenthetical disambiguations where they exist. I don't find this convincing, and for "pope" it seems even less so. So I now correct myself: For popes it should be "{pope's name} {number}", or "{pope's name} {number} (pope)" if ambiguous. Hans Adler 20:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

The naming convention applied to articles on Roman Pontiffs should be the one for clergy, as popes are much more notable as the top bishop of over a billion Catholics then they are as the sovereigns of a country with a population of 800 (and besides, not all of the 260+ popes have been heads of state). Hence, why the section on naming popes' articles is located on this policy page, not the monarch's page. With that understanding, we should look at the naming conventions for other, similar hierarchs. The best examples are the Coptic Pope of Alexandria and the Patriarchs of the Orthodox Churches. Both the pope of Alexandria and the pope of Rome are covered in the same section of this policy page, and have the same rules, except that in English "Pope", when used without a city name, is understood to imply "of Rome", so it's omitted for the leader of the Catholic Church (if this were the Coptic or Arabic Wikipedia, the rule would probably be different). The patriarchs have a consistent rule:

... use the format "Patriarch {episcopal name} {ordinal if more than one} of {episcopal see}". Do not use a patriarch's personal name; e.g., use Patriarch Nikon, not Nikita Minov.

So, we're being consistent with the article naming of the various patriarchal Christian church leaders. I see no compelling reason to change the currently established conventions. Gentgeen (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's circular logic. Why that format for patriarchs? Well, because that's how we handle popes.
You have completely ignored the fundamental issue: Popes and patriarchs are rare compared to kings, earls, dukes etc. The latter kind of people do not get an exemption from the general principle that we don't start a title with the job description. If Elizabeth doesn't get the "Queen", why should Benedict get the "Pope" and Bartholomew of Constantinople the "Patriarch"? That's the apparent problem. If there are good reasons for this apparent inconsistency, then everything is fine. But in that case someone needs to point them out. Hans Adler 22:42, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Your first sentence is just wrong. The question was never "Why the format for patriarchs", and Gentgeen never attempted to answer any such question. Gentgeen tried to answer the discrete question asked at the beginning of this discussion: "Why do popes in English Wikipedia have the word Pope in the title?" His answer is that popes are clergy, not just temporal rulers. As such, their naming is consistent with similar clergymen.
Also, the monarch rule you are talking about isn't as uniform as you seem to think. See, for example, Queen Victoria. More importantly, there is no compelling reason for this naming convention to conform to WP:NCROY. As Gentgeen said, Benedict is clergy and was not merely a secular ruler. The other popes and patriarchs are typically only clergymen and not secular rulers at all. The rationale for linking popes and kings is therefore not even remotely apparent.
In the end, the resulting name for papal articles is in the form Pope John Paul II, which also happens to be the most common usage in English. What possible reason can there be for taking a stable naming convention that results in the most common version of the name and replacing it with the edicts of a naming convention, WP:NCROY, that is controversial and has little to do with popes? And since when does existing consensus have to be justified when there is no concrete proposal to change it? -Rrius (talk) 04:37, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, there is a concrete proposal to change the naming convention, and I would appreciate it if people could discuss it on its merits rather than claim that it doesn't exist. Originally it was only formulated for popes, because it arose at Pope Benedict XVI, where people keep proposing to move the article to various other names, including "Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI". But there is no reason why it shouldn't affect patriarchs as well.
Not including titles, honorifics etc. is a rather strong principle on Wikipedia, with rare exceptions. One could expect that kings and earls are an exception, but overwhelmingly they are not. Queen Elizabeth II is under Elizabeth II, her father under George VI, his brother under Edward VIII, their father under George V, his father under Edward VII, his mother under Queen Victoria (the anomaly you picked out), her uncle under William IV of the United Kingdom (for disambiguation), their brother under George IV of the United Kingdom, their father under George III of the United Kingdom, his grandfather under George II of Great Britain, his father under George I of Great Britain, his predecessor under Anne, Queen of Great Britain (another anomaly), her predecessor under William III of England, his predecessor under James II of England, his predecessor under Charles II of England, and now I am getting too bored.
This is why WP:NCROY is relevant here. The highest clergy is getting an exception from the general principle that the highest royalty is not getting, so it's perfectly natural to ask what is so special about popes and patriarchs. Saying that popes are like patriarchs is not helpful in this context
The situation is similar, not only for lower nobility, but also for lower clergy. Popes and patriarchs are the only major exception. Looking at other Wikipedias can also give some hints. Of the ten biggest Wikipedias, 3 have him with "Pope" (English, Italian, Dutch), 6 without (German, French, Russian, Spanish, Polish, Swedish) and 1 with "(pope)" appended (Japanese).
As far as I can tell, actual usage is mostly "Pope Benedict" or "Benedict XVI", but only rarely "Pope Benedict XVI". For his predecessor we already have data in the Google corpus. For him, "John Paul II" is twice as common as "Pope John Paul II". [1] As there is no ambiguity, this indicates that leaving out "pope" before "John Paul II" is acceptable, even though the names are relatively common. (Results for John Paul I, Paul VI, John XXIII and Pius XII are similar.) Picking a medieval pope at random, Pope Boniface VIII, I get factor 4 for recent literature and an even higher factor for pre-1940 literature. [2]
The present naming convention for popes and patriarchs came up at a time (pre-2005) when the naming conventions also said that cardinals include "Cardinal" [3] The old discussion for patriarchs, from mid-2003, is at WT:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)/Archive 10#Patriarchs. I think 8 years is not too short before revisiting this question to check if the answer is still correct. Also, the arguments at the time included the following: "Given that we use pope for the head of the Roman Catholic Church, I think we show a similar tendency to use the equally appropriate title for Orthodox leaders. So I think Patriarch should be used." It is perfectly reasonable for the naming conventions for popes and patriarchs to be consistent with each other, but we need other arguments as well. If you can't think of any, I suggest looking at that old discussion for inspiration. The discussions where the current pope naming scheme came up must also be in the archives of WT:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility), but I haven't identified them yet. Hans Adler 07:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Surely the English practice is, in the first mention, to say "Pope Benedict XVI", but later in the article (and thus more frequently) to say "Pope Benedict" or "Benedict XVI" ... Esoglou (talk) 08:00, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
True, but this is not substantially different from the usage for kings and queens. Hans Adler 08:03, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I won't respond to most of that because it is not terribly responsive. I will respond to your claim that there is a concrete proposal for change. There isn't. This discussion is based on a question asked by one editor. No one has started a clear discussion saying "I think we should change this" and advertising it in the appropriate places. Also, you say "This is why WP:NCROY is relevant here," but that is non sequitur. Nothing you said supports that conclusion. And you still fail to realize that popes are not exactly royalty. They are, among other things, temporal monarchs of the Vatican, but they are not just temporal monarchs. They are also clergymen. Finally, I will also respond to your comment about the 2003 discussion. That is a decade of stable consensus; the onus is clearly on anyone seeking to change it to make a clear and convincing case to do so, and any change should not be made lightly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. -Rrius (talk) 10:44, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
It is true that the proposal has not been widely advertised. This is your chance to explain why we shouldn't take it to the next level. You are not making particularly convincing use of it, as you continue arguing about all sorts of things that have nothing to do with whether the general practice of not using honorifics or professional titles should apply to popes and patriarchs, or whether there is sufficient grounds for treating them as special cases. It seems to me that you are either mistaking this for a rhetoric contest or you simply can't find any valid arguments.
There might be sufficient valid arguments. But then it's a waste of community time not to bring them up before this discussion is very widely advertised. Hans Adler 12:14, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
The 265 bio articles-in-question are titled fine the way they are. All 265 individuals are former popes, which means their highest position was Pope. GoodDay (talk) 14:38, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Why do you consider this relevant? The same is true for kings. Hans Adler 15:19, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
In addition, this perspective introduces a BLP issue, as it leaves Benedict XVI with a title that he does not currently hold. ReformedArsenal (talk) 13:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
I don't think that we should have an exception for popes and patriarchs, when we don't title archbishops or bishops or anything else with a title. But we need to look at the sources - how do other encyclopedias name their pope articles? I know that most specialized medieval encyclopedias don't call their entries for popes "Pope X" but rather use the papal name alone without a title. Nor does my "Famous Name Finder" a concise biography of people use the title either. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:44, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Good point. Similarly for Britannica. Hans Adler 16:02, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


  • "Pope" should not be part of the article's title any more than "King" or "Queen" unless the overwhelming usage is with the honorific (whether spiritual or temporal), where we'd use the common English name: that's probably why Queen Victoria is so titled and why Saint Peter is there not at "Pope Peter". The vast scholarly usage is not to have Pope as part of the pontiff's name in historical books - so our convention should follow this. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:53, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Pope should not be part of the article title. Britannica does not do it that way, and the "Pope Benedict XVI" article is now titled incorrectly. If any disambiguous tag is needed, so be it. "Julius I (Pope)". I move the rule be changed and all the articles renamed which have positions in their titles. I would be willing to compromise that the current Pope can have Pope in his title, but previous Popes are no longer Popes in death. Xkcdreader (talk) 23:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose changes. With the exception of Peter (who alone is better known for something other than his papacy), all of these biographies are about men who are universally referred to in English as "Pope ___". Our current naming convention is consistent: anyone looking up Pope Damasus II knows that the article will be at Pope Damasus II; no need to wonder if it would be Damasus II, Damasus II (pope), or somewhere else. Your proposal would replace consistency with inconsistency, and in an electronic encyclopedia where we can't simply look things up alphabetically, we absolutely need to have consistent naming. A horrible idea, despite the fact that it's obviously being proposed in good faith. Nyttend (talk) 04:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
And you don't think that "President Obama" is drastically more common than "Barak Obama"? Beyond that, no one is saying no redirects, which would eliminate the problem that you identify about what people will look up. ReformedArsenal (talk)
  • Remove Pope, move to Name (pope) or just Name I don't see any reason why Popes should get special treatment in this regard. The way this is currently done violates every other naming convention we have in this regard. Having Pope used first in the first sentence is perfectly fine and in line with how other articles are done, but not in the title. Just use a redirect. SilverserenC 14:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Article convention should match other similar conventions of monarchs, heads of state, and other clerical positions. Thus the title of the article should be *Regnal Name* as the main article with *Pope Regnal Name*, *Given Name* as redirects and *Regnal Name (pope)* or *Given Name (pope)* as needed if ambiguity exists. This naming convention should also be adopted for Patriarchs in the East for consistency. With the case of Benedict XVI we should also have Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI as a redirect to Benedict XVI. This should be applied to all popes and patriarchs. ReformedArsenal (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
It appears to me that we have consensus that the name should match Regnal names and other Clerical titles... other than Nyttend, are there other comments? ReformedArsenal (talk) 10:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Break 0[edit]

  • Oppose making any changes. Titles such as "John Paul II (pope)" would be incredibly clumsy and less user friendly. Titles of pope articles have been stable for Wikipedia's entire existence and there is no need to change from established, functional and WP:COMMONNAME titles to clumsy and less user friendly titles. Also, as pointed out above by Nyttend, popes are universally referred to in English eg. "Pope Benedict XVI", not as "Benedict XVI (pope)". Mocctur (talk) 04:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the same reasons Mocctur states above. The current system works fine as it is, and is easy for newcomers to understand. If it ain't broke, why fix it? -- Marek.69 talk 06:17, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per Nyttend above. The current format ("Pope ___") is simpler and its consistency allows for easy prediction of other popes in a series. LEKI (talk) 07:47, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per Nyttend above. People with time on their hands need to find "problems" worth fixing. There's plenty around the 'pedia - leave this alone. DeCausa (talk) 09:19, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Agree per Silverseren and others. Like kings and other titled people, the title of the person should generally not be part of the title of the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:27, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • support- it's about damned time we brought these conventions in line with the rest. it also will eliminate current and potential BLP issues. I see no reason why popes should be treated any differently than other articles. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 14:37, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose per opposers. "it also will eliminate current and potential BLP issues" - oh purleease! Johnbod (talk) 16:37, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose. It would make the title of papal articles clumsy and counter-intuitive for casual readers of the English Wikipedia. Whatever is done with more strictly secular monarchs, popes are a unique case. There are 266 of them: there's no reason they can't have their own aptly customized article-naming convention, instead of being clumsily assimilated to the convention for a broader category. Wikipedia should aim for clarity and ease of use as an *encyclopedia* for those seeking information, not at being an outlet for a "blessed rage for order" among us frequent editors. How many encyclopedia readers instinctively type "Francis (pope)" for information on this guy? I imagine very few. The proposed change is obfuscatory. In answer to the entirely fair question, "Why should Popes get special treatment in this regard?" I think the best answer is that it is not the Popes getting special treatment, it is readers who come here seeking information getting appropriate treatment by having articles intuitively titled for their ease of use. Redirects would solve much of this problem, but to me anyway, they're an inelegant kludge. Why not just keep the intuitive titles? They harm no one, and they contribute to the user-friendliness of Wikipedia. Also, the popes are not the only clerical monarchs with a unique naming convention. It's 14th Dalai Lama, not Tenzin Gyatso (Dalai Lama). Or are we proposing to move the Dalai Lama articles, too? Wikipedia should match the English language; not the other way round. Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 17:00, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose. If it is not broken. do nof "fix it". Mtminchi08 (talk) 00:19, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose making any changes to the current convention. Bede735 (talk) 11:43, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment: I would like to add one important point I forgot in my comment above. If we changed Pope John Paul II to John Paul II (pope) (as if there were any other notable person known as John Paul II), we would have to write [[John Paul II (pope)|John Paul II]] instead of just [[Pope John Paul II]] every single time we mentioned him in an article and wanted to link to the article. Policy also favours natural disambiguation (Pope John Paul II) over parentheses (John Paul II (pope)) per WP:NATURAL. Mocctur (talk) 22:44, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
the vast majority of the names use numerals, and are HIGHLY unlikely to be confused with any other article. it would only be John Paul II, no parenthesis. pretty much the only one I can think of that would need parenthesis is the article on Francis. -- Aunva6talk - contribs 03:57, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Policy, both WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NATURAL, favours Pope Francis over Francis (pope). Mocctur (talk) 19:46, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per WP:SOVEREIGN, actually. I think you've misinterpreted the guideline.
  1. According to WP:SOVEREIGN, "These following conventions apply to European monarchs since the fall of the Western Roman Empire ..., because they share much the same stock of names.". Since the popes do use a stock of names that overlap with other monarchies, their titles must be disambiguated the same as other monarchs. Names like John Paul II may be unique enough, but Francis I, Gregory I, John I, Leo I, etcetera are not. See Papal name.
  2. Popes are not "kings of a people, rather than a country". They lead a worldwide church, but are only sovereigns of Vatican City. The "kings of a people" provision does not apply.
  3. "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}" does work. Remember Rome is not the country/state, Vatican City is. It would be "Benedict XVI of Vatican City", not "Benedict XVI of Rome".
  4. " some cases the title rather than the state is followed, including: [e.g.] Henry V, Holy Roman Emperor ..." This would result in "Benedict XVI, Pope".
  5. 'Article titles are not normally prefixed with "King" ... In a few cases consensus has been reached that the country can be omitted ... Elizabeth II (rather than "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom") and Napoleon (rather than "Napoleon I of France").' "Not normally" does not mean not allowed. Per WP:NOTLAW, consensus can override the default in unusual circumstances.
 —Sowlos  20:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Nice points. Isn't this heading for a WP:SNOW close DeCausa (talk) 21:01, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
  • I think it's already melted.
    However, if someone wanted to make a similar proposal for 3 or even 4, I would be interested. Although, that probably has "a snowball's chance in hell" as well.  —Sowlos  12:25, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose changes, based on WP:SOVEREIGN. Many of the names taken by popes, like all the "Pope John"s, are names taken by others, so disambiguation seems warranted. The one question I have here is regarding the use of the word "Pope" for non-Catholic churches, such as the Coptic Orthodox Church, where at least potentially we might have at least a few needs for disambiguation between a potential "Pope John I of Rome" and "Pope John I of Alexandria." If there are any other churches which use "pope" as a term for their leader, they might come into this as well. By saying that, I am in no way saying I am sure how to handle it, but just raising the issue. John Carter (talk) 17:29, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
  • The one question I have here is regarding the use of the word "Pope" for non-Catholic churches
    This has been on my mind too. Pope (disambiguation)#Religious offices provides enough examples for this problem.
    The only solution I can think of is to apply the standard WP:SOVEREIGN naming convention, "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}" (e.g. "Francis of Vatican[ City]").  —Sowlos  21:38, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
That's not a bad proposal. It would probably allow "Pope John Paul II" to be under that title, their being no other popes by that name. But, as one possible complication, how would one deal with the Avignon papacy, where in at least some cases the Roman Catholic pope may never actually have been in Rome? I dunno how to handle that, by the way, I'm just raising the issue. John Carter (talk) 21:46, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
Firstly, the other "popes" (eg the coptic Pope), not being sovereign, wouldn't have WP:SOVEREIGN applied to them. There's no need for a territorial designation for the Roman Pontiff because there's no other "sovereign" pope to disambiguate from. In any case, I don't think WP:SOVEREIGN is the most appropriate policy. The role of pope has many aspects, the least significant of which is sovereign of the Vatican. Between the Risorgimento and the Lateran treaty they weren't territorial rulers. And that's also true of the papacy in the early church, prior to the establishment of the Papal states. So, popes in those periods are definitely outside the scope of WP:SOVEREIGN. Secondly, per WP:COMMONNAME Pope X means, in the English language the Roman Pope. The coptic Pope is, in fact, most usually referred to as a Patriarch in English, not Pope, so I'm not convinced that that title of, eg Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria, is within policy. Leaving that aside, even if it is correct to include "Pope" in that article title, per WP:COMMONNAME, it should be qualified by a territorial designation whereas the Roman Pope should not as, in English, it is not usually linked to "of Rome" etc. DeCausa (talk) 07:32, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
You misunderstand me. If "Pope" is term for several lineages, than it is ambiguous. If it is not a term that indicates if one is a sovereign, then non of the titles for the Roman Catholic Popes are technically in compliance with WP:SOVEREIGN.
Indeed, WP:COMMONNAME is the only justification for keeping things the way they are now. Unfortunately, it does seem a little preferential.  —Sowlos  11:43, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand still. The Roman Pope should be "Pope X" because of WP:COMMONNAME because that Pope is, in English, not usually qualified by "of X" and "Pope X" has a clear meaning of the Roman Pope. (Disambiguation is not necessary) But equally the Coptic Pope should be qualified by "of Alexandria" because (a)disambiguation is necessary and (b) WP:COMMONNAME: the Coptic Pope, in English, is not usually just referred to as Pope X, but normally is "of Alexandia" (to the extent that the Pope title is used at all). Am I disagreeing with you? I can't tell anymore! DeCausa (talk) 12:42, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
Though it might be frustrating for some? In the English language, pope is mostly associated with the Vatican head of state/leader of the Roman Catholic Church. GoodDay (talk) 12:59, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Break 1[edit]

  • Oppose changes as unnecessarily complicated. And if we were disambiguating, wouldn't it be (at least for popes since 1929) xxxxx of Vatican City, not Rome? Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 13:04, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Very Very Strongly Support Fridek and also agreed with Xkcdreader. According to wikipedia's five criteria, RNPCC(Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness, and Consistency), I think, it is very very obvious that article titles such as "Pope Benedict XVI" should be moved to non-Pope titles, because Pope-attached titles are only temporally recognaizable and consistent with other then media articles, and they have never been recognizable, nor natural, nor precise, nor concise, nor consistent with other media articles for all the rest of time while each of them individually has not been a Pope. Besides, I and my family belong to Catholic Church, and naturally admitted that "Pope" is apparently just one of managerial posts of Catholic church, and given to only one current Catholic cardinal, therefore, I cannot think that all of "Pope"s should have been "Pope"s even in wikipedia's article titles. How many "Pope"s do you think Catholic people want to have at the same time? How many US Presidents do you think American people want to have at the same time? How many British Kings and Queens do you think British people want to have at the same time? So it is very very clear that an ex-Pope is just an ex-Pope, not a Pope. In Heaven, as far as there exists Saint Peter( Saint James the Greater, Saint John the Beloved, and so on ), they cannot be "Pope"s. Therefore, please treat ex-"Pope"s as ex-"Pope"s honestly. And it is also clear that only such a honesty can fulfill wikipedia's five criteria, RNPCC(Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness, and Consistency) forever. Thank you. (It seems that guys opposing to rename to non-Pope titles are feeling guilty unconsciously about betraying Catholic Church and ignoring even Wikipedia's basic criteria. ) -- Rocky7 (talk) 11:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
Queen Victoria is no longer the reigning monarch of the United Kingdom, yet her article title seems not to have caused any problems. Where there is possible ambiguity (e.g., Pope Francis as opposed to Francis I of France, having the word Pope in the title is helpful. Where there is no possibility of ambiguity, as with "Benedict XVI," we might as well allow the superfluous style Pope Benedict XVI to maintain consistency between papal articles where the disambiguation is necessary and those where it is not. Also, Rocky7, I don't think there's any need to indulge in armchair psychopathologization about this: neither "Catholic guilt" nor "desire to bring the Papacy down a peg" are anything more than ad hominem attacks. The reasons I've presented are all internal to Wikipedia's mission, despite my happening to be a Roman Catholic myself. The reasons my opponents in this conversation have presented, despite my disagreement with their position, seem similarly cogent. Let's play the ball, not the man. Rinne na dTrosc (talk) 15:48, 29 March 2013 (UTC)
I think it is always necessary to use the word "Pope" in the articles. So I said only about the article *title* of each Pope's page that the magic-word "Pope" should not be added to it, because I just want to avoid the situation that all "Pope"s such as Pope ABC III, Pope DEF V, Pope GHI VII, Pope JKL XI, Pope MNO XV, and so on, are quarreling with each other on the English Wikipedia, as if saying "I am the Pope of Roman catholic church", "I am the authentic Pope of Roman catholic church", "I am the true Pope of Roman catholic church", "Don't forget I am the Pope", "I am the Pope forever", etc. I like such a comedy, but is it preferable in Wikipedia? I have to think, only the english wikipedia may be established to make all "Pope"s tragic comedians. -- Rocky7 (talk) 14:36, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. If we grant that Popes/Patriarchs are somehow encyclopedically similar to monarchs, we could just as easily discuss changing the convention for monarchs as an alternative. Is that discussion underway? For that matter, we could have a similar discussion for republican rulers rather than only monarchs. (Make that change, and Bill Clinton for example would move to President William Clinton.) I'm pretty sure we're not having that discussion, but it would make as much sense as this one. Alternatively, we can maintain that Popes/Patriarchs, monarchs, and republican heads of state (such as the President of the USA, but there are other examples) should remain 3 separate categories in terms of Wikipedia naming conventions. The only similarity between all 3 is that they are all heads of organizations (be that organization a country or a church). As long as we're talking about heads of organizations, we may as well lump the chairmen of for-profit or not-for-profit private companies in there as well. A church is a different type of organization from a country, just as a business is a different type of organization from both. If anything, kings are more similar to presidents than they are to Popes, on the grounds that both are heads of countries while Popes (both in Rome and in Alexandria, and the whole fruit salad of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Patriarchs) are heads of churches. Yes, monarchs are mostly hereditary and presidents are either elected or, in some dictatorships, installed by military coups, but the point is not means of succession, but rather the type of organization they head. (If you go by means of succession, Popes and Patriarchs of different denominations would be wildly different in that regard.) The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 08:27, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

If we grant that Popes/Patriarchs are somehow encyclopedically similar to monarchs...

Reading more of the above or related articles would be a good idea. The Roman Popes are monarchs of Vatican City.  —Sowlos  19:23, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pope title in article names[edit]

Current Francis I is the Pope and King of Vatican City as well as the seated executive (CEO) of Holy See (a legal corporate person). Currently only one of these titles are mentioned in the article name. C.G.P. Grey explains the Pope with fascinating detail.

If "Pope" is a title rather than a commonly used first name it has no business being in the article name. Curently Queen Elizabeth II, King Bhumibol Adulyadej, Emperor Akihito (It is exceptionally rude in Japanese culture to refer anyone by first name, unthinkable to refer the Emperor without the appropriate honorifics & titles), Abdullah (of Saudi Arabia) bin Abdulaziz bin Abdulrahman bin Faisal bin Turki bin Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Saud1, Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah1, Sultan Qaboos bin Said al Said1, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani1, King Mswati III1 or even Jesus does not have a title in their article.

Currently John Paul II is a redirect to Pope John Paul II and it should be the other way around per the custom seen elsewhere on the site as existing policy and customs suggest. Pope Francis should be moved and redirected to Francis (Pope) or Francis I. Francis I looks better IMHO as the title doesn't clutter the article name.

1: Absolute Monarchies.

-- A Certain White Cat chi? 12:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

This issue was recently discussed several times in detail (see above) and was closed per consensus. The administrator who closed the last discussion wrote in summary: "Consensus is against changing the naming convention for articles about Roman Catholic popes, and also specifically against applying the naming conventions for European sovereigns to Popes." Bede735 (talk) 12:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I do not find the above discussion satisfactory. I have actually read it before posting this. The actual issue wasn't addressed. A naming convention for popes has not been established as far as I know. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 18:19, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
The naming convention for popes has been established and provided in the guidance WP:NCCL. It states:
For popes, whether Roman Catholic, Coptic, or otherwise, use the format "Pope {papal name} {ordinal if more than one} of {episcopal see}". Popes of Rome should not be linked with their episcopal sees; Rome is understood. For popes who are also saints, see Saints below. ...
This convention has been in place for years. The proposal was to change this convention by applying the naming conventions for European sovereigns to Popes—that was the actual issue—and this proposal was rejected by concensus. Bede735 (talk) 19:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I do not remember a pope discussion that established the consensus you mentioned. All I see in archives is people disliking the pope title in article names and some support to that end. This isn't something that there had ever been an established convention in the past nor has it been established above. Current structure is not line with WP:NPOV and there is always room for more discussion. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 19:21, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Francis I would be wrong. Current pope doesn't have a roman numeral associated with his name. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 22:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
These exact issues were all discussed in great detail above in two threads (they're not in the archive) with the discussion closed with this closure summary: "Consensus is against changing the the naming convention for articles about Roman Catholic popes, and also specifically against applying the naming conventions for European sovereigns to Popes." DeCausa (talk) 10:43, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
This does not apply to vast majority of popes. If the problem is disambiguation, there are ways around that used on the rest of the site. I do not know what you mean by "European sovereigns" but we avoid any kind of title in article names of people on the rest of the wiki as I have demonstrated with a few examples. Wikipedia does not abide by religious rules regardless of the religion and roman catholic popes are no more important than leaders of other religions/countries. Akihito is the current Japanese Emperor vast majority of other names I have mentioned is middle eastern hence not European. I do not see a sufficient reason for us to have a double standard on this matter. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 19:02, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Insisting that we need to use some Wikipedia-contrived designation for disambiguation instead of following real-world usage has a distinct air of Wikipedia:Right great wrongs masquerading as Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. I see no compelling reason to change existing usage. Choess (talk) 04:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia NOT Pope-pedia. There is a reason why we have general guidelines. Exceptions to the general guidelines should have a good reason not the other way around. This is the only instance of a general exception to site-wide guidelines on people tiles. I do not see the relevance of "Wikipedia:Right great wrongs" to this situation. -- A Certain White Cat chi? 14:54, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, I'm not surprised; if you were sufficiently disinterested to understand its applicability, or sufficiently well-informed to base your positions on reliable sources rather than some video that struck your fancy on YouTube, you wouldn't be doing it. Anyway, you're proposing to break WP:COMMONNAME (in the real world, which we're supposed to be documenting, people distinguish Popes from other people of the same name and number by calling them "Pope so-and-so") and the "consistency" criterion for article naming to uphold a principle that isn't actually true. (Our entire suite of articles on the British peerage uses "title[s] in article names of people", for instance.) That's never going to get consensus, which is why the responses to your lengthy arguments have been short and relatively flip. Find an article to write, or go to an Orange Order meeting if you prefer to rant about Popes. Choess (talk) 04:37, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Conventions in title and in text[edit]

The introductory text states that this guideline deals with article titles, but some of the content clearly applies to article text: "Do not use a pope's personal name except when referring to his life prior to becoming pope: 'Luciani entered the minor seminary of Feltre in 1923...' (life before papacy) but 'John Paul refused to...wear the Papal Tiara' (after being elected pope)" and "When it is necessary to add the title "Cardinal", it will usually be sufficient to prefix it to the surname of the cardinal, especially in the body of an article". And the MOS:HONORIFIC guideline, which has to do with text, says "Clergy should be named as described in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy)" (i.e., NCCL).

In my opinion it's quite relevant to cover both name and content of articles, and I've added "Some content is relevant to the text of articles, not just the article title." in the first paragraph. If it's considered instead that the guideline should be more narrowly focussed on article names only, then the content should be edited to purge references to article text, and my now-incorrect clarification removed. Pol098 (talk) 12:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Opposition to MOS:SAINTS[edit]

It's evident from recent RMs at Talk:Saint Joseph, Talk:Saint Timothy, Talk:Saint Peter that the current guideline does not have the support of editors. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:07, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Could you clarify: I had a quick look at the linked discussions and I couldn't see opposition to MOS:SAINTS - I may have missed it though. Please point out specifically where it is. What I see was a lot of argument about whether a particular Saint is known as "St. X" or not. Isn't that just applying the guideline, not disagreeing with it? DeCausa (talk) 09:54, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
There were at least 2 comments saying "then MOS:SAINTS is wrong" "MOS:SAINTS needs to be changed" and saying that "WP:COMMONNAME takes precedence over MOS:SAINTS" with discussion spread over 3 RMs I make approximate quotes because it's a bit difficult, but just going down the first RM I immediately meet 2:

I'm sorry but this does not appear to be the case. Google Books is not a reliable reference, and counting google hits is no way to do research. Stripping "saint" from the title name gives us Joseph, which is already taken, so MOS:SAINTS supports Saint Joseph. Rwflammang (talk) 14:03, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Cf. also Saint David, Saint Anne, and Saint Christopher which include the title for the same reason. Rwflammang (talk) 14:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

No, the guideline supports "saint" only when the individual is only recognizable when it's included, i.e. Saint Patrick. That's obviously not the case here since most reliable sources, as well as most Bibles, do not include it. --JFH (talk) 14:54, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Nor does the section mention WP:COMMONNAME at all. MOS:SAINTS is a sentence or two tucked away in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy), and it is questionable whether it applies to non-clerical saints at all. In any case neither over-ride WP:COMMONNAME, and many exceptions to both have stood the test of time. Johnbod (talk) 15:26, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Similar in the other RMs. e.g. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:42, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Yes, it should be changed to clarify the scope and meaning, and its relationship to WP:COMMONNAME. Also whether and how it applies when disambiguation is needed and "Saint Foo" seems to be the most appropriate alternative. Johnbod (talk) 04:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Made a change[edit]

Tell me how you like this, In ictu oculi, Johnbod, DeCausa, etc.? [4] User:Red Slash (User talk:Red Slash) - 6 December 2013

Saints go by their most common English name, minus the "Saint", unless they are only recognisable through the inclusion of the word "Saint". Another, more controversial exception, may occur when the base name (for example, "Timothy") requires disambiguation due to lack of primary topic for the saint. In that case, natural disambiguation has been preferred at Wikipedia, which sometimes but certainly not always involves the title "Saint". For example, we use Ulrich of Augsburg (perfectly unambiguous) but Saint Patrick (see Patrick, a disambiguation page). Make redirects from forms with "St.", "St", and "Saint". (See also List of saints.)

I'm not sure this change relates to the central issue which is opposition to the basic MOS "Saints go by their most common English name, minus the "Saint", unless they are only recognisable through the inclusion of the word "Saint"." The New Testament figures Peter, Joseph, Timothy are evidently not "only recognisable through the inclusion of the word "Saint" " since they are not called "Saint" either in the NT or in 80% of Google Books. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I tend to agree with In ictu oculi. - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:13, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
I do as well. ReformedArsenal (talk) 13:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
  • It's not typical guideline format maybe, but certainly an improvement. The idea that this page over-rides WP:COMMONNAME, which it doesn't, should also be addressed. Naturally I reject Iio's description of the issues. As he himself has complained above, his interpretation of this page has been consistently rejected by consensus in recent move debates he and others have started to remove "Saint", and it is better that the policy is clarified. Johnbod (talk) 14:00, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'm not sure who "lio" is in Johnbod's comment above, but I've been a party of several name change discussions and the suggested name change was not rejected due to concensus - the name change was rejected due to a LACK of concensus. This is a notable difference as John's statement implies that the attempts were shouted down. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with Johnbod that the policy needs clarification. Ckruschke (talk) 16:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke
It's In ictu oculi. Johnbod (talk) 17:00, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
A saint is only someone who has been declared to be a saint by one or more churches; it is a neutral fact that this is so. That is not biased against atheists etc, to whom the concept is merely meaningless except as part of the person's "reception hisory", which with figures like Joseph is almost all we know about them anyway. Joseph is only notable as a Christian, and the issue we are discussing arises only when other forms of disambiguation don't work. We are not talking about changing Thomas More here. Though other religions sometimes use the concept of "saint", in English "Saint Foo" is only a Christian formulation, so disambiguating by "(Christian saint)" is overkill. Johnbod (talk) 17:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
"Saint Peter" and "Saint Joseph" are unambiguous and neutral expressions. Even atheists tell non-malicious jokes about "Saint Peter" as doorkeeper to heaven. Use of the term "Saint Peter" implies neither belief nor unbelief. Calling Saint Joseph "Joseph (Christian saint)" (an expression that fits Joseph of Cupertino much better) or even "Joseph of Nazareth" would not be common speech, and for that reason use of such terms would have non-neutral POV overtones unlike use of the common established "Saint Joseph". Esoglou (talk) 17:23, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Agree with both John and Esoglou. You'd actually be INSERTING POV by using the naming convention Peter (christian saint). Ckruschke (talk) 18:16, 19 December 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke
It's clear reviewing Category:Christian_saints_by_denomination that only a very few such articles have used the "Saint" or "Pope" in the title, and indeed many of those could have done without, such as Paul VI, which presently is simply a redirect to Pope Paul VI, itself a rather blatant hagiography in need of revision. LeadSongDog come howl! 07:27, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

WP:BISHOP revision[edit]

I propose revising naming conventions for bishops and archbishops:

Preparatory reading[edit]


  • Consistency
  • Recognisability
  • Official names
  • Common names
  • Ambiguity
  • NPOV

Involved parties[edit]



  • Proposal 0: the status quo
  1. (Implied: Use "Common Name" {per WP:COMMONNAME.})
  2. If ambiguous, use paranthetical dab phrase "Common Name (bishop)". ("bishop" in the sense of the order and therefore including archbishops.)
  3. If two or more (arch)bishops have the same common name, dab by current or most recent (or, in practice, most senior) see "Common Name (archbishop of Nonsuch)" vs "Common Name (bishop of Otherwhere)." (Customarily and incorrectly uncapitalised.)
  4. If two or more bishops of the same common name held the same most recent or most senior see, then "Common Name (died 1066)".
  5. Bishops of only one name must not be dab'd with only (bishop); if two one-named bishops of the same see are generally distinguished by Roman numerals, they should be dab'd by such.
  • Proposal 1:
  1. Use "Common Name" (per WP:COMMONNAME.)
  2. If ambiguous, use paranthetical dab phrase "Common Name (bishop)". ("bishop" in the sense of the order and therefore including archbishops.)
  3. If two or more (arch)bishops have the same common name, dab by current, most recent or most senior see "Common Name (Archbishop of Nonsuch)" vs "Common Name (Bishop of Otherwhere)." (Properly capitalised as episcopal titles; avoiding use of disambiguation by denomination since sees are better recognised.) DBD 16:09, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
  4. If two or more bishops of the same common name held the same most recent or most senior see, then "Common Name (Bishop of Place, died 1066)", or (if no year is known for one of them) "Common Name (12th-century Bishop of Here)", or "Common Name II (Bishop of There)" (if both were active in the same century and not dab-able by years). DBD 17:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of proposals[edit]

I propose (proposal 1, point 3) that all episcopal titles be properly capitalised, since in that phrase we do not mean that this person was "a bishop, of Wherever", but that they hold/held the specific title "Bishop of Wherever. DBD 16:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I see one potential drawback to this proposal, although it is also admittedly a problem present in the existing guidelines. There are, at least for the Catholic and Orthodox churches (the latter of whom should probably also be notified) some problems regarding really early bishoporics where more than one individual bishop of a diocese are known to history by the same name. I have seen in some reference books on saints entries such as "Foo I of Fooville" and "Foo II of Fooville" and whatever. How would these changes deal with such circumstances? John Carter (talk) 16:29, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
I have added to my proposal to cover that eventuality. I have essentially formulated what seems already to happen in practice. DBD 17:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Also, some of those saints "Whoever II of Over There" would have that as their common name. DBD 10:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Oppose making changes to Naming conventions (clergy) guidelines. I don't see any problem with Proposal 1, points 1 and 2 since they are the same with Proposal 0, but Proposal 1, point 3 is not a natural progression of points 1 and 2, and Proposal 1, point 4 has too many options. Although the current guidelines are not perfect they have remained in place for many years and should stay as they are. Scrivener-uki (talk) 15:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The proposal lacks one detail: how to cater for two bishops of the same name in the same diocese but from different denominations. Following the Reformation in Ireland, many dioceses had parallel successions - 1 for the RC Church and 1 for the Church of Ireland. It's possible therefore that over the centuries, two Irishmen occupied the same see but in different denominations. So we'd need "Common Name (Bishop of Here, Denomination Foo)". Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:24, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
Or (Church of Ireland Bishop of There) and (Roman Catholic Bishop of There)? DBD 09:17, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Although I suppose there's the outside possibility that we'd end up with a (United Church of England and Ireland Bishop of There) which is becoming a bit ridiculous... DBD 09:22, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
There is no need for complicated options to distinguish one bishop from another with the same name and title. The current guidelines simply has their death year in brackets: e.g. Alexander de Kininmund (died 1380) and Alexander de Kininmund (died 1344), both bishops of Aberdeen. It is very unlikely, if at all, with two bishops with the same title and death year. Scrivener-uki (talk) 11:15, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Scrivener, I'd like to know what you mean by "point 3 is not a natural progression". That would help me prepare a Proposal 2. DBD 16:05, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
I always thought the disambiguation phrase in parentheses should normally be in lowercase, unless it is a proper noun (like a book title) that would appear capitalized even in running text (see Wikipedia:Disambiguation - Format. The progression I see is (1) Common Name, (2) Common Name (bishop), (3) Common Name (bishop of Wherever) or Common Name (archbishop of Wherever). With number 3, I see them as a bishop/archbishop of Wherever, and not the Bishop/Archbishop of Wherever. We don't see people in the peerage with their title in parentheses: e.g. Thomas Howard (3rd Duke of Norfolk) but with their title after a comma e.g. Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk. So the progression with bishops is either Common Name (bishop of Wherever) / Common Name (archbishop of Wherever), or Common Name, Bishop of Wherever / Common Name, Archbishop of Wherever. Scrivener-uki (talk) 11:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I would contend that Bishop of Somewhere should always appear capitalised in prose. DBD 11:38, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but the names of articles are not examples of "prose" and they are not about someone holding a specific position ("Bishop of Somewhere") but about what and where they are or were. So the "of Somewhere" part of the article name is the disambiguation part. It is the same principle as disambiguation between two people with the same name and same work (especially in the same country), i.e. between Jesus (carpenter of Nazareth) and Jesus (carpenter of Jerusalem). Afterwriting (talk) 15:07, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I see. So the "bishop of" is surplus to requirements? So we should rather distinguish Matthew Parker (York) from Matthew Parker (Canterbury). DBD 08:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

(Pinging @Anglicanus, Bashereyre, Laurel Lodged, Scrivener-uki, and Tassedethe: in hopes we could get moving again. DBD 17:39, 22 May 2016 (UTC))

Why is it "Eanbald (died 796) and Eanbald (floruit 798)" and not "Eanbald (Archbishop of York, died 796) and Eanbald (Archbishop of York, floruit 798)"? Doesn't the former violate proposal 1.4 ? Laurel Lodged (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2016 (UTC)


Proper Form in the Titling of Roman Catholic Cardinals[edit]

While the form currently prescribed in the guidelines makes reference to occasionally using the appropriate Roman Catholic convention for naming members of the Cardinalate; it recommends that it not be used in the actual titling of Articles. Furthermore, when the appropriate form is employed within the text of an article: the current prescription is to always use a redirect or piped link. However, to my mind, it seems much more accurate for the convention to be the reverse: the Article Title should follow the naming convention established universally by the Church (i.e., [First], ["Cardinal"] [Last]; as in "Donald, Cardinal Wuerl"), and redirects/piping applied to the use of the informal style (e.g. "Cardinal Wuerl," "Donald Wuerl," etc). This is not so much a matter of style as it is of accuracy –– determining the nature of the title is not the province of the reference guide, it belongs to the organization which grants the title. I suggest we discuss this. UBI-et-ORBI (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

As the progress of discussion on this matter is stagnant, as is the Talk Page in general (see recent RfC regarding Placement of New Sections in Dormant Policy Discussions), I am requesting comment on the above described question of naming/titling. UBI-et-ORBI (talk) 13:41, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Rebuttal: It appears that you are correct as it concerns previous discussion on the titling of Saints, Bishops, etc., however not with members of the Cardinalate, who have a particularly unique naming convention. In highlighting this difference, I would add that Cardinals are termed "Princes of the Church," and therefore hold an office of temporal sovereignty. Thus, the Style of a Cardinal is more than a mere honorific. Adequate consensus has not been obtained on this unique issue. -- UBI-et-ORBI (talk) 15:46, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Confirm oppose, not impressed by any part of the so-called rebuttal (rather circumstantial compared to the argumentation of my original oppose). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:10, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Your original opposition is grounded upon (using your exact phrases) the fact that you are "sure many objections to this have been provided" and your "confidence" that consensus hasn't change. You make these rather firm statements, and cite the pages for both Perennial Proposals and WP:CCC, although none of these links seem to confirm your alleged certainty. What's more, your parenthetical note is neither collegial in tone nor logical in meaning. --UBI-et-ORBI (talk) 16:19, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Still, oppose, for the reasons I've given and being unimpressed by the retorts. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:22, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
Being that your reasons are not supported by any locatable fact, I am unconcerned by your opposition. --UBI-et-ORBI (talk) 16:26, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: Though I personally would prefer "First Cardinal Last" form, the Naming Conventions for Syriac Bishops refers to an example of a Syrian Cardinal wherein the proper name is used without the "Cardinal". Also suggest the use of "First Last (Cardinal)" as per the conventions of Bishops~ ScitDeiWanna talk? 09:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)