Wikipedia talk:Notability

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Proper Research into use of Policies in AfDs[edit]

Is there a guideline for individual works of art?[edit]

Hi all. Do we have a guideline for creative works like paintings, sculptures, etc.? I am wondering if we consider in a museum notable or if they must show more significant coverage per WP:GNG.4meter4 (talk) 17:36, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I think there is only GNG. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:43, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
"In a museum" definitely doesn't constitute notability on its own. (Museum collections are huge and can number into the millions of items.) You need to demonstrate that the specific work has been the subject of independent commentary in its own right for it to warrant a stand-alone article. (If the independent commentary doesn't exist, it's unlikely one would be able to write an article in the first place, so the situation should rarely arise.) ‑ Iridescent 17:50, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
There's also this section of the visual arts MOS page, which includes guidance about separate pages, but doesn't have a lot to say about what makes something notable. WP:GNG. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 20:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Let's start with asking, who's the artist? postdlf (talk) 19:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Audience section should be moved here since it is relevant to broad notability not just NORG[edit]

From WP:AUD: "The source's audience must also be considered. Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability; at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary." I think this consideration is relevant to more than just organizations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Would you like to expand on any view you have? Xxanthippe (talk) 01:36, 24 October 2019 (UTC).
Expand how? It seems to me that this qualification is applicable to all topics and should be mentioned here, as an argument against keeping articles sourced to in-depth coverage in local church newsletter or such... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:45, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
I'd fully support that (or at least duplicating it here, it is far more serious for NORG but should apply); I've mentioned that coverage of elements only from local sources or from very niche media would not be sufficient to support notability. But in the past there's been resistance against adding something like this. --Masem (t) 05:55, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. To the contrary, WP:AUD is a mistake even in its narrow application to organizations. Extending it encyclopedia wide would be a disaster. The same proposal was made by Piotr late last year and was rejected overwhelmingly. See: Wikipedia talk:Notability/Archive 64#Local sources, again. Cbl62 (talk) 06:01, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose local media is stretched by editors seeking deletion to include regional coverage such as Chicago Tribune and so forth, reliability is what is important not geographical reach, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 17:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. If the problem is that businesses and businesspeople are buying coverage by placing stories into the media, then raising the bar for everyone will worsen the problem, not ameliorate it, because then we will still have the same number of spammy articles on businesses and businesspeople (they will just pay for more media) but fewer of everything else. A better solution would be to use subject-specific criteria that recognize significance and are less purchasable. In the meantime, without a believable rationale for what this change would accomplish, it is a solution in search of a problem. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:12, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • I think the real issue here is that we rely on primary sources such as news reports for many articles, and such sources are only accepted if they are freely available on the World Wide Web. This leads to our acceptance of articles where an article subject, or its PR, is good at getting online coverage. If we had more objective criteria than the usual interpretation of the general notability guideline then we could take care of this. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:52, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

How notable does a comic book character got to be[edit]

I recently created this section which I am not done with. Apparently this character is "not notable" or "significant" enough for Wikipedia. So I am just wondering if the criteria of the character getting coverage can be a bit clearer. Jhenderson 777 20:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

You need "significant coverage" from a source, "more than a trivial mention." The exact meaning of that can be debated, but I'd say unequivocally that the sources you're using are trivial mentions. Proper weight needs to be given to sources. You're taking articles where the character is mentioned in a passing sentence and putting them in the article as if they're major opinions. You're taking cookie cutter Top X lists and giving them more weight than they deserve. You're lacking sources with any actual meat. They don't need to be articles directly about the character, but it should at least have some focus. TTN (talk) 21:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
To show my point about Top X articles, you use Screen Rant, which today alone has posted 23 Top X lists. These are cookie cutter, pump-them-out-for-clicks articles. They hold little weight, and they should be avoided unless they provide some kind of weight (i.e. top 5 of a broad top 100 characters list from a source that doesn't frequently do lists). TTN (talk) 21:21, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
You mean a headline? There is no movies to talk about her to do that. She is a major SUPPORTING VILLIAN like Dormammu and Baron Mordo. It’s obvious that she won’t be headlined is sources unless she appears in movies. That’s just how sources of comic book character work. Jhenderson 777 21:23, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Also regarding the source. As an one time wise administrator who knew of GNG very well said their never enough sources to not establish notability. I agree. Now we are establishing there is too many sources to place on an article to help prove it. Ridiculous! Jhenderson 777 21:29, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, so there are many, many comic characters that are not notable via Wikipedia's standards. You want things like critical analysis (professional paper or book talking about the core of the character), true reception (maybe a review of a comic series in which she appears, giving a solid paragraph talking about the character, from which you can take a select quote to properly bolster the article), or otherwise major usage in popular culture covered in a third party source. These clickbait articles do not have any of that weight. Wikipedia's "notable" is different than "notable within the space of Marvel Comics."
Do you really think a website that puts out 20+ lists in a single day has any real editorial merit? Do you not see that it means they're constantly scraping the bottom of the pop culture barrel looking for random topics to get people addicted with lists to click their lists instead of another site's lists? TTN (talk) 21:31, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Maybe true. I voted merge on articles that I agreed you with. But you picked on an article I agreed to disagree on. Also your argument sounds a little bit like you have hate nitpicking on the related articles. Also how do you keep getting the same votes of users starting out. That's a bit odd and suspicious. Also one of them needs to quit saying per nom. Jhenderson 777 21:37, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
No I don’t think I was scraping the bottom of the barrel by working on the article. I think you and others had a deletion agenda to get rid of half of comic book character articles. You call it scraping because you might not get your way with some of what you want being deleted. Yes it’s true there is too many of them but you should be picking on the D-list instead of the C-list and B-list for now. Jhenderson 777 21:50, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
  • For my part, I am sick and frigging tired of the lame shibboleth of "deletion agendas" that boil down to "Those mean bastards are trying to get rid of MY ARTICLE!" Strange though it may seem to some, there are many editors on Wikipedia whose "agenda" is seeing that articles meet notability guidelines, and who do not believe that subjects that don't meet them merit articles. In this specific case (and let's leave aside that for all the subject's alleged status as one of Dr. Strange's "most iconic villains, her name doesn't appear in Strange's article), my question is three-fold: which in the blizzard of sources are sources giving the "significant coverage" to the subject required by the GNG, which of those sources meet the requirements of WP:V as "reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy," and how does Jhenderson777 claim that they do? (For instance, I'm not sold on the reliability of Screen Rant and CBR, both owned by the same Internet mill.) Ravenswing 06:29, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
    • That isn't my article. That article has no affiliation to me. I didn't even create it. It apparently must be a nuisance to you though. My apologies. Have editors like you realize this is a stupid thing to get upset about anyway? Jhenderson 777 06:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
      • You certainly haven't, anyway, unless your barrage of ad hominem attacks is your normal way of argument. (Never mind that after making nine comments here and thirty-one (!!!) at the AfD, you have a damn peculiar way of demonstrating a lack of investment and anger over this article.) That being said, you didn't answer my question. Would you care to try? Ravenswing 21:28, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
  • For my mind, none trivial third party out of universe mentions. So "In Super Spankers(tm) the movie the character of Captain underpants was played by..." published in The Times is not enough. Nor would 15 pages in the "encyclopedia of Super Spankers(tm)" published by Super Spanker(tm) comics Ltd.Slatersteven (talk) 10:00, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Ok silly guy. This is helpful to my question how? Also I am pretty sure the article has more than that. None of those things were even my doing lol. Jhenderson 777 10:10, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
OK let me put it like this, which of the sources in the article in an in depth analysis of the character that was not published by marvel or any person associated with them, the character or the film?Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
I want to say none. The sources vary. Unless I am misunderstanding you? I understand if English isn't your main language though.Jhenderson 777 11:26, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Then there is your answer, it is not at this time notable, and until at least two sources that meet the above criteria are met it remaind non notable.Slatersteven (talk) 11:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
No that is not my answer because I didn't understand your question lol. Jhenderson 777 11:50, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
"So I am just wondering if the criteria of the character getting coverage can be a bit clearer." the answer is "better sources" to wit independent third part sources that cover the subject in some depth.Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
  • My advice to the OP... look at the articles we have on more established comic book characters. Examine the sources used, and what types of statements they are used for. You will see that there is usually at least one source that discusses the character in depth, how the character was created, the characters history “in universe” and its impact on the franchise (ie the character’s real world history and development)... that is the sort of source you will need to look for when writing the articles you are working on. A top ten YouTube video isn’t enough. Blueboar (talk) 21:43, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Notability standards for software and apps[edit]

There are quite a few software pages about software made by a small time developers. I came across this Wikipedia:Notability_(software) essay which looks much more lenient than the WP:GNG that is generally applicable and the more robust guidelines applicable to organizations/companies/products WP:NORG to minimize promotional pages. The software essay is only an essay. Are software articles expected to meet the GNG and product guidelines? Graywalls (talk) 18:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why there should be any difference between notability standards for software products and those for any other type of product. I rather suspect that the existence of that essay is an artifact of the systemic bias created here due to the fact that geeks are very over-representated in our editing community. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:06, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
That plus there is likely much more RSes out there in the software and other tech product field compared with, say, clothes, groceries, and whatnot. NORG is definitely appropriate notability advice to follow to avoid any software product being overly self-promoted and the like, and guidelines for content of such articles should focus not on the software nitty gritty (as some tend to ) but the importance of the software, what niche it fills, etc. --Masem (t) 20:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I have an ongoing AfD on an article that is about a website that I found to not satisfy WP:GNG and WP:NORG. The creator intervened and and changed the title and moved it to "software" Special:Diff/926480105 which left me to wonder if different standards. I haven't experienced anything quite like it when the requirement switches mid AfD from one category to another, if there even is a change at all in notability category. I am seeking to clarify if that essay has any meaning. Graywalls (talk) 01:01, 21 November 2019 (UTC)