Wikipedia talk:Revision deletion

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Previous discussion at Wikipedia talk:Selective deletion


Please make it easier to request RevDel[edit]

There's no good reason why it's easier to request Oversight of an edit than it is to request Revision deletion—but it is. A concerned editor need only visit Special:EmailUser/Oversight (there's a convenient link at the top of WP:Oversight), type a short message, and she or he is finished.

To request RevDel, on the other hand, a concerned editor is advised to hunt down an administrator who may be active from a long list of administrators, or to learn how to use IRC. But don't post it on a noticeboard. No, that might be too convenient.

Why don't you ask one of the oversighters how to set up a mailbox similar to theirs, and make it as easy to request RevDel as it is to request Oversight? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:18, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

The oversight team has a well-staffed mailing list and OTRS queue with round-the-clock coverage; for this kind of solution to work we would need the same kind of arrangement for revDel-willing administrators. I'd worry it would create Yet Another Backlog. Creation of an administrators mailing list would also be subject to concerns about reducing transparency. Perhaps an RFC to gather opinions on the idea? (The technical implementation is easy.) –xenotalk 11:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Transparency? What transparency? We're talking about things that should be hidden from the edit history. Currently, editors are recommended to use IRC. Transparency. You really crack me up. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 17:42, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

RfC on Appeal of RevDel usage[edit]

*Q1: Consensus on whether or not non-administrators can participate in discussions involving RevDel'd content could not be determined because consensus does not exist in favor of or against allowing or disallowing.
  • Q2: If no consensus exists on whether or not RevDel'd content should remain redacted, then it will default to: remain deleted.
Music1201 talk 18:45, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Currently, the policy states the following about appealing RevDel.

"Actions performed using this tool remain visible in the public logs. They are subject to review by other administrators (who can see redacted material), and to reversal upon clear, wider consensus. As with other administrative tools, good judgment and appropriate use are expected; improper use can lead to sanctions or desysopping."

Additionally, the section on misuse reads:

"Material must be grossly offensive, with little likelihood of significant dissent about its removal. Otherwise it should not be removed."

There was disagreement surrounding a recent discussion at ANI about how RevDel appeals should take place, and this RfC seeks to make the process more clear. ~ RobTalk 23:26, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Question 1[edit]

1) In cases where non-administrators know enough about the redacted material to evaluate whether revision deletion is appropriate, can they weigh in on a discussion regarding whether revision deletion was appropriate? More specifically, do their contributions to such a discussion contribute to consensus?

Yes[edit]

  • Yes, non-administrators should be able to contribute to such discussions when they can do so from an informed perspective. Adminship is about tools, not a leadership role, and the broader community should have a role in examining the use of tools if they have the technical ability to have an informed position in such a discussion. ~ RobTalk 23:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes - One could already read Wikipedia:Revision deletion#Appeal and discussion of actions "[deletion reviews] are subject to review by other administrators (who can see redacted material), and to reversal upon clear, wider consensus." this way. Regardless of which way this goes, clearing up the ambiguity with a clarification is due.Godsy(TALKCONT) 00:09, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes: Obvious interpretation is obvious. The restriction to administrators is only there because only they can normally see the revdeled material. WP:REVDEL clearly says that only clear-cut cases with little likelihood of dissent should be revdeled. A community discussion can indicate dissent. Kingsindian   00:36, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes. The only advantage admins have, in this case, is their access to the information. Just like any other area of editing here, anyone who knows what they're talking about may express their opinion. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 03:05, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes. Characterizing an edit without repeating its content is most certainly not beyond serious editors. The biggest harm would be self-inflicted, editors operating on a faulty memory may mostly damage their own credibility. The harm of repeating deleted material is less in discussion space than in article space, and its likely to be redacted again very shortly. Balancing this potential harm against creating an artificial boundary between editors and admins, where typically DRV has none, I find myself in favour of unrestricted discussion. MLauba (Talk) 11:06, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes, per Rob, and especially in the case under discussion (Washington Post text), the proposal makes sense. APerson (talk!) 01:37, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes if they know they can contribute, and if their recollection or what they say is wrong, then others that can really confirm, or really know can weigh in and contradict. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes. If nothing else, this should be a case of IAR: the intent of the policy is that only admins can comment because only admins can know what was deleted. But that assumption is not true. Following the letter of the policy violates the intent of the policy. Of course, now that we've found the hole in the policy, we should fix it, not limit ourselves to using IAR. I am also astonished at how many of the "no" !votes are claiming that normal users shouldn't comment because they don't have access, when in this case they do have access. Ken Arromdee (talk) 22:12, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

No[edit]

  • No This is one of the very rare instances I think adminship is needed to be a part of consensus. If you don't have access to the deleted material, then you don't have a basis for the opinion. Admin can not only "remember seeing it", they can go and review it while it is deleted. Non-admin can't do that, and allowing them to would defeat the purpose of Rev Del. This doesn't mean that an editor that did see it can't opine, but if you open it up, then some people are demanding it be undeleted for review (no chance that is going to happen), so the community can decide. Or you get piling on by people who simply claim to have seen it, or are basing their opinions on what other people in the discussion are saying. Rev Del is a very sensitive tool that the WMF legal team requires you have adminship to access. Admin were specifically selected to be trusted to do this, subject to review by other admin, and accountable for how they use it, all the way up to Arb. Other actions should and are reviewable by the community, but you can't review what you can't see. Dennis Brown - 01:35, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
@Dennis Brown: This is specifically talking about text anyone can see. The text in question was a passage from a Washington Post article. Anyone can read it, once a link is provided (nobody, on any side, objected to the link). Kingsindian   01:42, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
And I don't mind making exceptions, and will always listen to non-admin familiar anyway (as will most admin), but I think you need to keep the policy limited to those with full access. It is a can of worms that can lead to piling on by people who are just piling on to defend someone when they don't really have a clue. Anyone that knows me knows I'm extremely outspoken about non-admin having equal say and have supported that for years, but if the paper misquotes, gives improper context, etc. then you have a bad situation. There is no substitute for direct access, so this is about a technical limitation, not about trust of someone who can actually see it. Dennis Brown - 09:27, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • No, my concerns are similar to Dennis Brown. We don't want a consensus to be built upon what a user recalls seeing. It's possible this could differ from what actually was written. In addition, we have no way of proving that an editor has seen the revision deleted edit(s) short of discussing the text. (Which defeats the purpose of revision deleting a comment anyways.) I'm also afraid that we run the risk of editors "piling on" in support of another fellow contributor, even if they have not reviewed the edit. Finally, this would encourage editors to "be on the lookout" for the contents of revision deleted content before it is removed from public view just so they can be part of the discussion. Mike VTalk 03:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • No. I would like to say yes, that the view of any editor would count, but there are two points against it. First, if you can't see the deleted text, and other deleted text that might be relevant, you're not able to reach a decision. Trying to judge the issue based on memory and without context might not always work. Second, opening the discussion up might mean that those who had posted the text in the first place, or who supported it being posted, could join together to try to force the undeletion. Undeletions and discussions draw even more attention to issues that are often very sensitive. SarahSV (talk) 05:00, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • No. Usually I'm on the opposite side of this fence, but the thing is, I do not trust Wikipedians as a group to keep their traps shut when they don't know what they're talking about. At least with admins you know they should know. Opabinia regalis (talk) 06:00, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
Are these know-nothings the same people who elected you and elected all the admins? I also notice a rather striking "class divide" among the answers here. Kingsindian   07:52, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
You've read ANI before, right? ;)
The problem is that there's no way to verify a non-admin's memory of a deleted revision or ensure they've seen all the relevant material without discussing it in enough detail to defeat the purpose of the revdel. DRV can solve this by temporarily restoring deleted content if necessary, but obviously that doesn't work if the material is sensitive (and most disputed revdels will be, basically, subjective differences of opinion on how sensitive something is). It's a matter of practicality. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:32, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I disagree with her on this issue, but I would consider OR one of the strongest advocates of non-admins being able to contribute as much as technically possible. There is a regrettable class divide on Wikipedia, but OR is part of the solution, not the problem. Her criticism is valid, even if I disagree. There are certainly some editors who would attempt to contribute to a discussion when they actually have no idea what's been RevDel'd, and it would take some effort from a closer to determine whether a position was informed. I think a decent closer could definitely do that, though, which I think is where OR and I will disagree. ~ RobTalk 08:34, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
My usual chapter-and-verse on this issue is that adminship is essentially a technical role - you have more buttons on your interface - and it should provide no advantage in making essentially social decisions, like closing a discussion. The current question strikes me as a technical matter; only people with the right interface buttons can see the material. If participation is open to anyone who happened to see it pre-revdel, the effect is that the closer will rely to a greater than usual degree on their personal familiarity with the non-admins to judge their contribution. That's worse if the concern is some kind of perceived social inequality. (A relevant question: exactly the same logic could be applied to say that anyone who saw suppressible material should be able to weigh in if the suppression is questioned. What if anything differentiates the two cases?) Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
@Kingsindian: Before you start a discussion about a "class divide" here, you should go check out the gender divide in the ANI case and consider it.--v/r - TP 20:28, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Question 2[edit]

2) If there is no consensus for or against revision deletion, should the redacted material remain deleted? In other words, is the burden of showing consensus on the administrator who used RevDel or the editor(s) disagreeing with the use of RevDel?

Default to no action (RevDel remains)[edit]

  • Support but... this policy is actually irrelevant to most contentious cases. The problem is, that a significant number of contentious revision deletions are on BLP grounds and that policy is quite clear that the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material ... If it is to be restored without significant change, consensus must be obtained first. In my experience this section of WP:BLP has widespread support. Unless extra positions are added to the RFC, Default to no action is the only consistent option. In truth, of course, the outcome of this part of the RFC is irrelevant as BLP is always going to take precedence. CIreland (talk) 02:08, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
    • @CIreland: WP:BLP makes no reference to revision deletion, and it's a bit of a stretch to say that we're required not only to remove violating content but to revision delete it. The criteria for revision deletion requires material to be "grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive", which does not include most BLP violations. ~ RobTalk 03:24, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
      • I didn't say that revision deletion is required for BLP issues, rather consensus is required for undeletion. Further, the criterion you quote (criterion 2) is not the only criterion used for BLP violations. Criteria 3, 4 and 5 are also frequently applicable. CIreland (talk) 17:48, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support. Most of these deletions are BLP issues, so the default has to be that they remain deleted unless a consensus of admins emerges that the deletion wasn't appropriate. SarahSV (talk) 05:08, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support just about everywhere, "no consensus" means "default to status quo". There's no reason to make this particular, unusual situation an exception. If anything, it's the opposite; if a reasonable subset of admins reviewing the situation think something is "grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive", then it would come off as callous to insist the offensive material must be restored on a technicality. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:39, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support The default is to leave as status quo, but more importantly, when it comes to "grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive", you err on the side of caution, which is to leave it deleted. The same is true with all BLP, if in doubt, leave it out. Other polices (like BLP) come into play where you can't make a hard rule like this anyway. Dennis Brown - 09:35, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support The open ended nature of the question appears to apply to RD in general. At the very least RD1 should default to delete, per the precautionary principle. Same with contentious BLP material. In particular for the latter, POV pushers can very easily appear in sufficient numbers on a discussion to create an impression of a contentious use of RevDel, to restore unsuitable material that fits an agenda. MLauba (Talk) 10:42, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support If there is no consensus to change it, it can remain. If one admin is passionate about reversing, they can reverse it and then a discussion can ensue. A "no consensus" on that would leave it as the second admin reverted. It is like a speedy deletion followed by a deletion review ———— a no consensus deletion review would leave it deleted. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:33, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support - RevDel is, in some ways, like speedy deletion. Just like if speedy deleted content doesn't get a consensus to be restored it stays deleted, same is true about RevDel. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 09:53, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support on the principle that the status quo should always prevail. Callanecc (talkcontribslogs)`

Default to undoing RevDel[edit]

  • Support defaulting to reversal of deletion. As stated in the Misuse section of the policy, "Material must be grossly offensive, with little likelihood of significant dissent about its removal. Otherwise it should not be removed." This makes it fairly clear that RevDel is not appropriate where there will be "significant dissent" toward its use. It makes perfect sense to follow through by undoing the revision deletion when "significant dissent" is encountered and a "no consensus" outcome is reached. ~ RobTalk 23:32, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Support: per my comment in the section above. RevDels are for clear-cut cases, as specifically mentioned in policy. Kingsindian   01:34, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

You are unnecessarily abbreviating one criteria for rev deletion. The entirety of the criteria (and another criteria that might apply in this situation) is:

*"Grossly insulting, degrading, or offensive material that has little/no encyclopedic or project value and/or violates our biographies of living people policy. This includes slurs, smears, and grossly offensive material of little or no encyclopedic value, but not mere factual statements, and not "ordinary" incivility, personal attacks or conduct accusations. When attack pages or pages with grossly improper titles are deleted, the page names may also be removed from the delete and page move logs."

*"Purely disruptive material that is of little or no relevance or merit to the project. This includes allegations, harassment, grossly inappropriate threats or attacks, browser-crashing or malicious HTML or CSS, shock pages, phishing pages, known virus proliferating pages, and links to web pages that disparage or threaten some person or entity and serve no other valid purpose, but not mere spam links."
Liz Read! Talk! 01:25, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

The quoted portion is not from this text, but from the section WP:REVDEL#Misuse. I have added it now to the header. Kingsindian   01:37, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
@Liz: This RfC is not meant to address the specific situation at ANI, which is why I didn't include specific criteria that are relevant to that discussion. This RfC is more broadly trying to determine how appeals should take place - whether non-admins should be involved and whether the default is restoration or removal. In other words, does the RevDeling administrator have the burden of defending their usage of RevDel (rather than other editors having the burden to challenge that usage) and who does he or she have to defend it to? ~ RobTalk 01:59, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
  • @Opabinia regalis: In response to your support for no action above, I would actually call no action the exception in this situation. Normally, we resolve disagreements using the bold, revert, discuss method. BRD defaults to the status quo of whatever existed before the bold action in the event of no consensus. Here, we have bold, discuss, no action, which defaults to the bold use of RevDel. Is it really the status quo for a single editor to use RevDel unilaterally, with a clearly demonstrated lack of consensus for the action? ~ RobTalk 08:53, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
    • BRD is fundamentally about editing and is less applicable to admin actions. It may only be a "wheel war" on the third revert, but it's still impolite at best to unilaterally reverse another admin on grounds of "I disagree" rather than clear evidence of error, especially when no other editor is immediately affected by the action (as in, say, a bad block). Challenges of admin actions with no consensus to overturn generally leave them as implemented.
      As for the particular case that prompted this RfC, I am not convinced the project's biggest dramaboard is a good venue in which to review deletion of sensitive material, for the same reason it's a bad venue for requesting revdel in the first place. I'd probably care less about this if the review happened in a place less well-known for attracting low-quality drama-mongering commentary. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:37, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
      • That's an interesting point. I think it would be uncontroversial to add to the policy that an appeal should be made at WP:AN, not WP:ANI, where there's a lower traffic among non-admins and a higher traffic among admins. This is also in line with similar processes, such as WP:CLOSECHALLENGE, which goes to AN. I can't see any reasonable person disagreeing with that slight change, so I'm going to make it. ~ RobTalk 02:35, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Did I really hear this right? The reason for choosing WP:AN instead of WP:ANI is that there is lower traffic among non-admins? And I am the one who gets upbraided for bringing up "class divide"? Kingsindian   03:20, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Sorry, non-admins was bad word choice. I meant "inexperienced users". In other words, it keeps the visibility down a bit if the discussion involves actual grossly offensive BLP violations, which is desirable. ANI has a huge traffic including many users who don't care to weigh in on this sort of discussion. It makes little sense to talk about revision deleted material in front of them. ~ RobTalk 03:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
I am as much disgusted by WP:ANI as anyone else: however, I have no more confidence in Arbs or Admins as compared to the people who lurk there. For better or worse, that is the place where non-admins weigh in regularly. As to concerns about drama: does anyone object to the WP:ANI discussion linked in the OP? As far as I can see, It was remarkably free from drama. I have discovered from some experience that a straight yes/no survey cuts down on drama by 90%. Speaking generally: there is no need to copy the revdeled material into ANI for discussing it: I managed to do it without this (even though I considered it idiotic). If people want to get rid of WP:ANI from Wikipedia, then propose that. Otherwise I see no principled objection to WP:ANI here. Kingsindian   03:36, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
Many decisions at ANI can be made without an admin talking or acting, which is not the case at AN. It is reserved for issues that are primarily admin centered or need the tools. This includes announcements and the like that ANI doesn't get. I think of ANI as more of a fire/police station where we need to deal with problems fairly quick and everyone's opinion is the same. I see AN as more of a giant conference table where things are deliberated a bit slower and the issues aren't as urgent. It has always been reserved for ban discussions and like, including things that require the tools. Non-admin don't have access to deleted contribs, for example, but often admin will quote or undelete so non-admin can see and participate. That is why cases about admin accountability should be there as well. ANI can't be gotten rid of, it has taken on the responsibility of WP:WQA, WP:RFCU and the like, and is the best place for behavior problems. Still, AN is better for technical issues and general reviews. They both exist for different reasons. I for incidents, general noticeboard for admin related issues. Dennis Brown - 15:34, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
AN is better, but that just means it's now on the project's second-biggest dramaboard ;) If "matters pertaining to sensitive material shouldn't be discussed in the most public and drama-filled venue short of Jimbo's talkpage" doesn't count as a "principled objection", I don't know what would.
As for the original ANI thread, I find it rather unsatisfying, actually, although not in a way that would really be addressed by a change of venue. I see a conversation among mostly men about an action taken by a female admin to redact material about a female harassment victim. Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:52, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia. We are pretty good at dealing with lots of things here except real human beings. Dennis Brown - 01:01, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC on Amendment of Block Log Rev Del Policy[edit]

NO CONSENSUS:
Closure was requested at WP:ANRFC for several weeks now. The result is no consensus. This proposal asks for a rather significant change to the revision deletion policy that requires a broader range of input than was presented here. If anyone wants to further pursue the proposal, I recommend publicizing a second RfC on central community noticeboards like T:CENT, WP:VPP, and WP:AN, using neutral-wording of course per WP:CANVAS. Mz7 (talk) 01:57, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I propose the following amendment to the section titled "Log Redaction":

Log redaction (outside of the limited scope of RD#2 for the move and delete logs) is intended solely for grossly improper content, and is not permitted for ordinary matters; the community needs to be able to review users' block logs and other logs whether or not proper. Due to its potential, use of the RevisionDelete tool to redact block logs (whether the block log entry is justified or not) or to hide unfavorable actions, posts and/or criticisms, in a manner not covered by these criteria or without the required consensus or Arbcom agreement, will usually be treated as abuse of the tool. However, the intentional or negligent misuse of the block tool is not an ordinary matter and an editor who has been blocked in error may have the erroneous block and unblock lines of the block log RevisionDeleted on request. “Blocked in error” does not mean a block that is overturned or shortened on appeal, but, rather, a block that either (a) Arbcom has determined constituted an intentional or negligent misuse of the admin toolset, (b) a consensus at ANI has determined was a “bad block,” or, (c) the blocking admin has acknowledged the block was made in error or as a result of some misunderstanding by her/him. Immediately after RevisionDeleting any portion of a block log, an administrator must seek Oversighter review.

LavaBaron (talk) 18:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Support[edit]

  • Support as Proposer - my rationale for this amendment is that I was recently subject to an erroneous block. Prior to this I had a clean block log. My block log is now permanently marked; there is no way to clean, and no way for me to undo, some else's mistake. Even in serious criminal matters it is possible to have an arrest record sealed if the arrest was made in error. It is incomprehensible that a block log error should haunt an otherwise capable Wikipedian for, essentially, eternity. Our own, existing, policies (WP:BLOCKNO) acknowledge the impact a scarred block log has on editors-
Blocks should not be used solely for the purpose of recording warnings or other negative events in a user's block log. The practice, typically involving very short blocks, is often seen as punitive and humiliating.
-and yet we prohibit editors accidentally blocked from seeking any alleviation from "punishment and humiliation"; the only amelioration is (sincere) condolences. Adopting this amendment would still allow admins to view the unaltered log, it would simply obfuscate blocks made as a result of errors (covering everything from the cat walked across an admin's keyboard, to whatever) from the public-at-large. LavaBaron (talk) 18:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Oppose[edit]

  • Oppose I'm quite against this, particularly because of part (b). ANI can receive a selective audience based upon when a post is made, who follows the ANI noticeboard, and how quickly a thread is closed. I'm not comfortable with hiding something from public view based upon popular opinion. I'm also concerned about the potential of abuse through point (c). If a log is completely redacted, no one but administrators will be able to see the blocking admin or the blocking rationale. Hiding this from public view would decrease transparency, which is something that the community has generally discouraged. In addition, I believe it's misunderstood that that log will "disappear". It will only be redacted, which could create more issues than it solves. (e.g. Editors trying to figure out what was redacted and why.)
The portion of the blocking policy that you cited does not apply here. That policy discourages admins from making short duration blocks (e.g. 1 minute) to leave a record of a warning. Right below that it states, Very short blocks may be used to record, for example, an apology or acknowledgement of mistake in the block log in the event of a wrongful or accidental block, if the original block has expired. (If it has not, the message may be recorded in the unblocking reason.) This is more than sufficient to allow the correction of an error. Any reasonable editor should be able to review the block log and see that the block was made in error or was overturned. Finally, I'm also not sure why you are recommending the oversight team to review the revision deletion since suppression would not be utilized here. If you wanted the oversight team to serve as a "review board" you would need a larger RfC as that would expand the remit of the oversight group. Mike VTalk 03:04, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose more or less per Mike V. Also redacting bad blocks would remove from public view evidence that might later need to be used against a malfeasant administrator. BethNaught (talk) 18:24, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

I can see some argument in support of removing total errors, such as mis-clicks and mis-identification, but also think they are usually cancelled out by the unblock. However negligence and intentional misuse are things which shouldn't usually be hidden (I'm thinking here about scrutiny of admin actions rather than the blocked editor). I'm absolutely not in favour of "a consensus at ANI has determined was a “bad block", since consensus on community boards, especially at WP:CESSPIT is often hurried, controversial, and can often suck. Also, let's not dump stuff on Oversighters. -- zzuuzz (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I'd suggest that all bad blocks result in a 24-hour block for the blocking admin to ensure creation of a standing record that allows "scrutiny of admin actions" but I can imagine the absolute howls of protest and horrified undulations that would produce. LavaBaron (talk) 22:34, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
A trouting is the traditional treatment for admin blunders. But warnings and admonishments could also be appropriate. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:02, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm not out for revenge. I'm out for restorative justice. I would like my clean block log restored; an admin being warned or admonished is irrelevant to me. There's no reason I should, though no fault of my own, have to live with someone's mistake for the next 50 years when there is an easy technological capacity to correct it. LavaBaron (talk) 00:24, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

I have never done a RevDel on a log entry, but when one is done on a normal article revision, it does not diappear from the history. It is still apparent that there was an entry, but just what it was is hidden. In a block log, that would be more alarming than a block followed by an unblock with edit summary saying that the block was mistaken. JohnCD (talk) 22:58, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

If I looked at a block log and find that reason, blocker etc were crossed off due to log entry redaction, that would still look suspicious, and would raise questions that are not answered. A block log having entries is not as serious as it sounds above. In the case mentioned above, it is more about showing a change of mind by the admin. The log entries show that, and the unblock shows that the block was reconsidered. The block was announced on the talk page as well. But a user is permitted to remove that announcement. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:01, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

"Not as serious" is not the same thing as "equal to a clean block log." The imposition of even a 1-percent de-weighting of my reputation as a Wikipedian is 1-percent more than I deserve for an error of someone else's design. The possibility that I might ever be forced to dig-up diffs or pound-out explanations, when my block log is used as a cudgel in discussion to delegitimize my opinion (as I've seen it done in other cases), is an encumbrance I should not have to bear for someone else's mistake. The fact that this is infinitely permanent - it will be here 2, 5, 10, 30 years from now - compounds each of these molestations by a factor of 2, 5, 10, or 30 times. LavaBaron (talk) 00:31, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm certainly not opposed to having erronous blocks removed from block logs, and I see no convincing argument against such a thing. That being said, I believe this will largely be a technical issue, which is something I'm not fit to get involved with. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

In an instant[edit]

I suggest we change

It is not necessary that the target is identifiable. It is sufficient that it appears to refer to some real person, organization, or group, or could be intended to suggest a specific target to the right reader. For example a smear could target a person known locally by a nickname or other allusion that no Wikipedia administrator has heard of, but that is instantly recognizable to people in that school, town, or social community.

by removing the word instantly. I don't think the policy is meant to protect only "instantly" recognizable targets. (I made this change already [1] but was reverted.) EEng 02:17, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree with this change. It doesn't broaden existing policy. It doesn't matter if someone is recognisable after two seconds or ten minutes, if they going to be recognised it's going to get deleted. -- zzuuzz (talk) 08:07, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
I might suggest "possibly", just for clarity's sake, but I'm not hung up on it. Dennis Brown - 10:52, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Support this common-sense improvement that removes an absurdity. If no administrator has heard of the nickname or allusion, how would any of them know whether it's instantly recognizable to others? — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 11:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

RfC on Change RD1-wording[edit]

There is no consensus for the proposed change, so the longstanding wording will be retained. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I've read WP:RD1 a few times, and requested deletions for it with {{copyvio-revdel}}. Many users understand what to do, but some user do not wwish to fufill such request, since another user may have edited the article while the bad content was still there, and that there attribution needs to be kept. The fact is that only the username needs to be attributed, not the diff of the edit. Therefore, I ask for a clearer wording of WP:RD1 as following:

Blatant copyright violations that can be redacted without removing attribution to non-infringing contributors. If redacting a revision would remove any contributor's attribution, this criterion cannot be used. Best practices for copyrighted text removal can be found at WP:Copyright problems and should take precedence over this criterion.

to

Blatant copyright violations that can be redacted without removing attribution to non-infringing contributors. Redacting a revision should not remove any contributor's attribution. Usernames and IP addresses should not be hidden, only the revisions themself. Best practices for copyrighted text removal can be found at WP:Copyright problems and should take precedence over this criterion.

(tJosve05a (c) 04:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Support[edit]

  1. Support this makes sense to me. -- Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:32, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
  2. Support Wording of criteria should be clear to both all parties, without assuming that they know the details of the licensing rules besides a basic understanding of what constitutes permissible/impermissible copying. See my even simpler wording suggestion below. — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 07:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
  3. Support as a harmless codification of current practice. Even if there are intermediary edits, the problem is that even those intermediary revisions still contain copyright infringing content that needs to be removed. It sometimes comes at the cost of eliminating who-did-what, and administrators can still exercise their discretion whether to carry out the deletion (this proposal doesn't change that, as far as I can tell). But Josve05a is correct that legally, all that's necessary for attribution is the username, and the removal of who-did-what is sometimes necessary to more thoroughly delete copyright infringing content. Mz7 (talk) 16:01, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Oppose[edit]

  1. Oppose - if someone makes intermediary edits elsewhere in the article between the insertion and deletion of the violating text, those revisions should not be deleted. This change in policy would mean they are deleted. Stickee (talk) 22:11, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
    • Yes they should. Since the revisions still contain copyright violations, and ince we distribute WP:DUMPS such revisions which are violations need to be deleted. Not just the revision where it was added. (tJosve05a (c) 03:51, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
  2. Oppose Maybe there is a good idea there, but as written this furthers logical scrambling. The whole subject text is to provide one authorizing-reason for deletion, and place conditions on use of that particular reason. The revised text takes out that "condition" wording and inserts some general info on deleting in copyvio situations. Possibly it was intended to modify the conditions for use of this item, but as written it does not. Also, if it is going to be changed, why not also fix the last phrase which is also logically mixed up. This whole item provides one authorizing-reason. What the heck does "take precedence over" an authorizing-reason mean? It probably meant taking precedence over the "conditions" part of this item. North8000 (talk) 13:46, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
    • The "take precedence over" i part of the exisitng criteria, and is not suggested to be added or changed. Feel free to tart another RfC, or an "option 2" to remove it. (tJosve05a (c) 03:52, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
  3. Oppose The assertion that all that is needed is a username in the revision history doesn't add up. If there is more than one edit, then who did what is lost when the revisions are deleted. Simply removing copyvios is usually sufficient anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:53, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
    • "Who did what" is not needed for proper attribution according to the license. And no, just removing copyio from 'live verions' is not sufficient, that' why we have this criteria, due to WP:DUMPS etc. (tJosve05a (c) 03:51, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
    I don't agree that the benefit of doing this is worth the loss of the revision history if there were multiple, substantive intervening edits, regardless of what the license says. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:49, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
    This has been established practice for over a decade, way before revision deletion was activated, using the much cruder selective deletion method. RevDel made it easier to ensure that the list of contributors would be preserved. This proposal here changes nothing to that practice. MLauba (Talk) 13:19, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
    I'm not at all sure I follow your line of reasoning there, you seem to be saying that despite there being proposed new wording that changes when this criterion would be used, when this criterion could be used will not actually change. If it isn't a change then... what is it and why are we even talking about it? Beeblebrox (talk) 19:13, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
    I believe the OP wants to codify the existing practice in a different language. I don't believe the proposal really changes anything in a long established practice. MLauba (Talk) 22:46, 4 March 2017 (UTC)
    No, it doesn't change anything, just the wording of the criteria, since currently it sounds as though you can't do revdels if there are multiple editors involved (multiple revs), but since only names need to "stay" for attribution, the part with "If redacting a revision would remove any contributor's attribution" doesn't make any sense. (tJosve05a (c) 01:17, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Could simplify it even further: "Blatant copyright violations. In order to maintain attribution, only the content of the offending revisions should be hidden, not the usernames or IP addresses associated with them. Best practices for copyrighted text removal can be found at ..." — Train2104 (talk • contribs) 07:10, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Template:BLP-revdel[edit]

Heads up that an IP has created the above template via the AfC process, and User:333-blue accepted it. It does what it says on the tin, essentially the same thing as {{copyvio-revdel}} but for BLP violations (R2). I have tagged it with {{db-t2}}, since this directly contradicts the policy page which states that "To avoid the Streisand effect, there is no dedicated on-wiki forum for requesting revision deletion under other circumstances.". — Train2104 (t • c) 21:43, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Weird grey lines that no one can click on[edit]

The result of Revision deletion is weird grey lines on history pages that no one can click on. They should have a mouseover added explaining what is going on. Jidanni (talk) 10:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Why is a mouseover needed, when the "weird grey lines" are things like the text "Edit summary deleted" that have been struck through? —C.Fred (talk) 13:56, 13 October 2017 (UTC)