Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 3

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Station Area Diagrams

Was working on Carlisle railway station yesterday. Reviewed and revised the station diagram area. I was not happy with the station diagram below the infobox as the resultant page had a lot of white space in the initial visible area. I have created Template:Railway line header (center) to provide an alternative location on the page for these types of diagrams. Thoughts please. --Stewart 11:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocky vs fluid

I'm not really sure on a title for this. I've noticed recently under railway line header, lines have seemed to reverted to being in sections rather than continuous, which is reminiscent of prettytable-R. So what is going on here? Simply south 22:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the edits by User:Max Schwarz who had changed the image size from 20px to 21px on Template:BS, Template:BS2, Template:BS3, Template:BS4 and Template:BS5. The gaps have now gone. --Stewart 22:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks. It looks normal now. Simply south 22:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
This is very weird. There were gaps before my edits, so I increased the image sizes, which seemed to fix the problem. And now the gaps have reappeared for me. I am using Firefox/CaminoWhat browsers are y'all using? How can we fix this? On a related note, does anyone have any idea what is going on over at San Joaquins? The route diagram has developed large gaps between rows, which previously only occured while editing.--Max Talk (+) 23:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I am using IE6. There was an extensive set of changes made earlier this year as a result of gaps that existed (see Wikipedia_talk:Route_diagram_template/Archive_1#Annoying_spaces_-_a_solution). I have looked at San Joaquins and do not see any gaps. --Stewart 23:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Solved it. The problem was with my custom font selection. Oh well, sorry to bug you.--Max Talk (+) 03:23, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Somebody willing to help caption these?

I found these icons on the original German page. The are used in situations such as here, where the line splits halfway down. I think it looks neater than the current solution, and it also allows BS and BS2 templates to be used together, so if you have been using one and suddenly realize you need an parallel line, you do not need to change the whole template. I wasn't quite sure how to translate these.--Max Talk (+) 05:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Abzweigungen zu BS2 auf Mittelachse Bei Verwendung von nur einem Abzweigsymbol mit Corner zu ergänzen
BS2+r Unknown BSicon "BS2+r" exUnknown BSicon "BS2+r" j j
BS2+l Unknown BSicon "BS2+l" exUnknown BSicon "BS2+l" j j
BS2l Unknown BSicon "BS2l" exUnknown BSicon "BS2l" j j
BS2r Unknown BSicon "BS2r" exUnknown BSicon "BS2r" j j
BS2c1 Unknown BSicon "BS2c1" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c1" j
BS2c4 Unknown BSicon "BS2c4" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c4" j
BS2c3 Unknown BSicon "BS2c3" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c3" j
BS2c2 Unknown BSicon "BS2c2" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c2" j
a) these files are on the commons anyway, just not in the table at WP:TRAIL
b) typically one would use BS, then BS3 or even BS5 as they flow into each other
c) given the above, i guess these are items used prior to the interoperability of the 5 BS templates and/or the advent of BS4 and 5 (which came some time after the original WP:TRAIL).
See route maps like the Potteries Loop Line for how BS, BS3 and BS5 can be used and how to parallel lines can be handled
Pickle 05:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I know they are in the Commons, but I am talking translating the right-hand tags in the table above. Also, it is much more space efficient and it looks nicer to use the technique used at Traun-Alz-Bahn.--Max Talk (+) 07:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
It does look neat, doesn't it? It must require the mixing of the 'odd' (BS/BS3/BS5) templates with the 'even' ones (BS2/BS4), since they align differently (now I know why) and I think it will need a special section in the notes to describe how to achieve the desired effects (for those like me who only edit these manually).
Using a combination of my German knowledge ('O'-level-failed!) and, er, Babelfish (!!) you get the following:
"von Mittelachse in Fahrtrichtung: nach links" becomes "of axle centre in driving direction: to the left"
which retranslated is something like "from centre-line, to left, in direction of travel". To translate the others, 'zur' = 'to', and 'rechts' = 'right' (I got that far with my 'O'-level knowledge, so it wasn't entirely wasted time in class... :o) )
The second one is less clear in Babelfish:
"Corner für alleinstehendes" becomes "Corner for unmarried"
which I presume is supposed to say "corner for single line"
Also, the title, which I missed at first, becomes (literally):
To supplement branchings to BS2 on axle centre when using only one branch symbol with 'Corner'
Is that any help, or had you got that far already?
EdJogg 09:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)


Translation

Hello, I'm attempting a translation of the table above per request from Max. Note: it's a bit technical, but I think I translated it correctly. The wording could probably be cleaned up a bit to match whatever article this goes with. Hope that helps. Cheers! Aelffin 09:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Branching of BS2 along central axisThrough the use of only one branching symbol with Corner to supplement
BS2+r Unknown BSicon "BS2+r" exUnknown BSicon "BS2+r" j j
BS2+l Unknown BSicon "BS2+l" exUnknown BSicon "BS2+l" j j
BS2l Unknown BSicon "BS2l" exUnknown BSicon "BS2l" j j
BS2r Unknown BSicon "BS2r" exUnknown BSicon "BS2r" j j
BS2c1 Unknown BSicon "BS2c1" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c1" j
BS2c4 Unknown BSicon "BS2c4" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c4" j
BS2c3 Unknown BSicon "BS2c3" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c3" j
BS2c2 Unknown BSicon "BS2c2" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c2" j
The English version often refers to the 'up' and 'down' directions where the German version speaks of the 'ahead' and 'reverse' directions - How about calling these 'Branch or curve away from central axis in down direction' or something like that? AlexTiefling 10:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Better Translation?

Maybe this is a better translation. The explanation didn't make sense to me after I'd translated it, but I'm sure I got the meaning more or less correct. Maybe the original German was mixed up, or maybe I'm just not understanding what these symbols are supposed to illustrate. At any rate, I think this is a more idiomatic approach to the translation. Hope this helps! Aelffin 23:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Branching Symbols
Use of a single branching symbol (with supplementary corner symbol) to illustrate the branching of BS2 from the main line.
BS2+r Unknown BSicon "BS2+r" exUnknown BSicon "BS2+r" j j
BS2+l Unknown BSicon "BS2+l" exUnknown BSicon "BS2+l" j j
BS2l Unknown BSicon "BS2l" exUnknown BSicon "BS2l" j j
BS2r Unknown BSicon "BS2r" exUnknown BSicon "BS2r" j j
BS2c1 Unknown BSicon "BS2c1" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c1" j
BS2c4 Unknown BSicon "BS2c4" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c4" j
BS2c3 Unknown BSicon "BS2c3" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c3" j
BS2c2 Unknown BSicon "BS2c2" exUnknown BSicon "BS2c2" j
They are used in situations such as de:Traun-Alz-Bahn, where about halfway down the line merges. It's part of a larger project which is being translated to here.--Max Talk (+) 00:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Cool. Thanks. Glad to be of help. Aelffin 01:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I've tested it on Template:West Coast Main Line - compare that with the previous version. Comments welcome! – Tivedshambo (talk) 18:04, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The modified form looks much improved, the curves are far easier on the eyes like this. Geoff Riley 18:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
It's still a bit, er, 'kinky' around Manchester Piccadilly, but it is much improved. The effect is better where there is an even split to/from two tracks -- but the single-line curves are 'not quite right' somehow. -- EdJogg 22:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Cosmetic issue with background colours

All the icons are on a white background and yet the tables in which they appear have (on my computer at least) a very pale grey backround. This makes the outlines of the icon tiles visible. It looks particularly ugly when different row templates (e.g. BS and BS2) are mixed in the same diagram. Is there anything that could be done to make this problem invisible? --Dr Greg 11:46, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I suspect you're using IE6 or another older browser that doesn't render tranparencies in SVG files. I have the same problem, but it seems fine in Firefox. I'm not sure if there's a solution or not. – Tivedshambo (talk) 17:31, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Icon Request - Summit Marker

I have added Beattock Summit to Template:Caledonian Railway (Carstairs to Carlisle). Initially I used KMW as the symbol to mark the location, however this is not the correct icon (as User:Signalhead has noted and amended). A more appropriate symbol would be desirable, which could be used for many other Summits - Shap, Schlod, etc - when appropriate. --Stewart 05:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I've used ÜST for the summit of the Lickey Incline in Birmingham to Worcester via Bromsgrove Line, as there is a crossover there. I don't know if this is applicable to Beattock. – Tivedshambo (talk) 09:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd strongly support the creation of a summit or height-marker symbol too - this is highly relevant to waterways as well as to railways. (If it's a generic height-marker symbol, it can be used for lowest points too - such as those in the Severn and Channel Tunnels.) AlexTiefling 10:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I've created STRSummit, based on a similar icon for public footpaths (fSTRSummit) - see Birmingham to Worcester via Bromsgrove Line for an example. If this is acceptable, I'll create an ex version later. – Tivedshambo (talk) 09:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Probably best to include the altitude of the summit in feet and in metres if you can. Can we have t-versions as well as ex-versions, please, and matching low points? Many thanks. AlexTiefling 12:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The only problem is this icon looks like an arrow, and might perhaps be misinterpreted as a "one-way" symbol. A possible alternative would be a smaller triangle alongside the line instead of in the middle of it? --Dr Greg 17:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Done! – Tivedshambo (talk) 20:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Rerequest

Is it possible to rerequest for having 3-way station icons...?

Currently: Shipley and Earlestown

Historically: Morfa Mawddach, Forres, Ambergate and possibly Leeds (Imay be wrong and have mixed up this last one), to name a few. There are probably others out there. Simply south 22:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't speak for the rest, but the lines for Earlestown split either side of the station, and the station only services the branches on the Liverpool side of the branches. I think that it would be simplest to illustrate with a branch before leading to two station symbols on the two lines before showing the Warrington branch off (assuming your general flow is Liverpool - Manchester), and then a join of the two branches towards Manchester above. I've not mastered Spoorstrip yet or else I'd show what I mean... Geoff Riley 06:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, a very rough attempt at what I mean... as I say, I'm not proficient with Spoorstrip...
to Manchester
to Warrington
Earlestown
to Liverpool

Geoff Riley 06:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Stourbridge Town Branch Line - third opinions requested

Could I request some alternative opinions for the route diagram for this article. It originally looked like this [1], showing the main line beside it and the connecting line. This was reduced by an anonymous user to this [2], showing the line with no connections at all. To compromise, I added the connection only [3], as most diagrams show connections to other routes. However, this is being reverted by anonymous users (or possibly the same one - the last two reverts have been similar IP addresses). I'd like a clearer consensus before altering it again. Many thanks. – Tivedshambo (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted the route map to the original layout by Tivedshambo. This detail is import to show the line in context with its connection line, especially since other important detail (original goods depot, over/under-bridges) are shown). If you look at the work being done as part of WP:TIS - specifically Paisley Canal Line this is the combination of a currently and historical detail - it shows the various junctions in context. This is similar to that of the Stourbridge line. Other Scottish Routes are split between Historic lines and currently open lines. If you follow this then there will be an article for the current operation with a very simple route map and an historic article covering the line from construction with a detailed route map showing the connections in context (for examples see Cathcart Circle Lines, Cathcart District Railway and Lanarkshire and Ayrshire Railway to see how this works in practice) --Stewart 21:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Just adding my agreement that the more detailed version is better. Marc Shepherd 11:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree - version 1 is by far the best. Fingerpuppet 12:45, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[unindent] - The routemap is under attack again... EdJogg 17:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Replacing station stops sections

What should one do when adding a RDT to a page that already has an elaborate "Station stops" section, such as Acela express#Station stops? Should the section be replaced, or should it remain in conjunction with the RDT? I mean, in situations like this, I replaced it since it didn't remove any information, but these tables show stuff like connections.--Max Talk (+) 05:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally I would say to produce the route diagram and then remove extraneous detail from the table... however, in this case there is such a wealth of detail that has been collected together that it would be difficult to extract anything without compromising the whole table anyway.
Perhaps, in such an instance it would be useful to leave the main table and have the route map as well. Some of the information from the table could be represented on a route diagram, but I think it would quickly become confusing and would defeat the purpose of the route diagram.
The route diagram would provide the consistency across the various station pages and so echoing it here would continue the consistency. Geoff Riley 07:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Railway line legend

Does anyone else feel that Template:Railway line legend is far too complex now? As I see it, this should merely be an overview of what the symbols mean, similar to the key on a road map, and not a breakdown of every combination of junction, open/closed line etc. If, for example, BSicon ABZgl.svg is used to represent a junction, it is not necessary to show BSicon ABZgr.svg and every other combination on every sort of line as well. I'd like to propose reverting it back to something similar to this version, with additional sumbols only as necessary, and keeping the link to this project page for editors. What do others think? – Tivedshambo (talk) 11:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the documentation for the route diagram template should be exhaustive whereas the legend should be a brief summary of the general symbols. Geoff Riley 12:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Support -- Compare the relatively simple legend for an OS map as an example.
Page should have two sections, one showing the different line colouring (open, closed, tunnel, metro, etc), and one showing what all the symbols mean. (No need to repeat all symbols for all line types.) It is worth including one junction, as a general form, since it will be necessary to show the triangle junction also (and explain it?). Stations may be shown by 'major/minor', there is no need for 'terminus'. Etc, etc. Much simplification possible, however your 'previous version' needs to be expanded somewhat.
EdJogg 12:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Support -- The legend should be a very simple affair to aid the reader of articles. However, it is useful to have a crib page - a simple, structured table (preferrably not duplicating symbols in different colours if they follow a strict naming convention) to aid map editors. This should be in the Wikipedia Project user space. Oosoom Talk to me 13:13, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Split the difference — I think it's useful to explain every symbol with a distinct meaning, but if the legend shows one example of a branch, it needn't show every combination of directions. Marc Shepherd 14:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I've produced it in a new format, as an example route with symbols on and a colour scheme above it. Hopefully this should be clear without being overly complex. – Tivedshambo (talk) 12:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Looks good - especially the upper table. Whether the lower table is 'good' really needs a non-railway reader to assess (ie someone unfamiliar with the routemaps).
The only symbol you 'might' yet include is the river bridge, unless you reckon that it is really obvious what it is. (I don't think it is as obvious as, say, the airport symbol, which you have included.)
EdJogg 12:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Now included - that was an accidental rather than deliberate omission. – Tivedshambo (talk) 12:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Add a positive reaction from me - it looks far better now than it did. Fingerpuppet 15:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Yep: great improvement. Well done. Geoff Riley 18:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
This looks great. Good work. One question - are the words 'overbridge' and 'underbridge' commonly used and accessible? AlexTiefling 08:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
That's a good point. Perhaps 'bridge under railway' (or 'railway bridge'?) and 'bridge over railway' (respectively) would be clearer, especially for anyone whose first language is not English.
Incidentally, anyone else think that adding Wikilinks might be a good idea, where appropriate (eg for level crossing) for even greater accessibility?
EdJogg 09:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

BS-Daten

The Infobox Template:BS-daten is particularly useful in its purpose - adding length, an image etc - but a bit painful in its implementation, mainly because it is still in German. I have started a discussion and a Sandbox to convert the existing German port to English. I was thinking a few "English" improvements could be added like a changing it from displaying Gauge in mm to show just Broad, Narrow and Standard with mm in brackets, and an automatic converter of line length from km to imperial or vise-versa. Discuss on the talk page as to what people think. Nomadtales 00:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a bit off-topic here regarding this template. In fact I had worked on a similar template, template:rolling_stock. But thsi template is primarily dedicated to EMU which the template title doesn't suggest... -- Sameboat - 同舟 00:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
BS-daten is designed to be included into this template, as an infobox at the start (see a small example here Template:Main North Line). I asked for input yesterday on the daten talk page .. no one responded .. I thought I would expand the reach, so to speak. Nomadtales 02:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Display issue with bridge icons

Can someone help please?

My PC, which is running Win2K and using IE6, has stopped displaying any of the bridge icons. Well, to be precise, it has stopped displaying the 'BRUCKE' icons and the crossover; the motorway icons are fine, as are all the others in the table. The common feature with the non-working ones is that the names contain an Umlaut.

The icon appears to download and display initially, but then after a short delay, vanishes. The same problem occurs if I open the icon image file directly: 'now you see it, now you don't'.

I have not changed any settings, but the machines are on various auto-updates, so I cannot be certain that nothing has been changed.

Since this effect leaves gaps in the maps, this is a potentially serious problem for the project.

Any ideas?

EdJogg 09:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is potentially serious for you, not the project ... unless the problem occurs on all browsers; and it does not. Have you cleared your browser's cache? That might sort it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 09:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it's only a serious problem if it affects 'all browsers', rather than just mine, but surely if I can have this problem, so can others?
I have seen it on both my PCs (they are same config), although only one is used for regular internet work. However, another machine nearby, XP-Pro with IE6, running on same network, is unaffected.
Have tried cache-bypass (CTRL-F5), clearing temporary files and restarting IE, with no improvement. Any other ideas?
EdJogg 09:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
No idea here I'm afraid (working OK in IE7 and a slightly dated version of firefox on XP). Problems have occurred in the past due the presence of the Umlaut, thats where i guess it could be. Pickle 10:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Apologies; I didn't grok the umlaut significance, and to retract in full, if this is a problem with the same OS/IE combination as you have, then it is serious and could presumably be addressed by amending image names and then editing all of the templates which point to the umlaut version. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have exactly the same problem as EdJogg, running IE6 on Windows XP. I believe this version does not support SVGs and these are rendered on the server as PNGs or BMPs. Has something changed on the Wiki server software recently? If I click on an invisible bridge icon, its page shows a blank image. --Dr Greg 12:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

There have been some changes to transparent png files - see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-09-10/Technology report#Other technology news. I've also had problems, and not just with this template. Unfortunately the advice to "upgrade to IE7" is not always practical in all cases :-(  – Tivedshambo (talk) 14:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Just as an experiment, I created File:BSicon WBRUCKE.svg over at Commons and tried using it in Staines to Windsor & Eton Line. The icon was created by uploading the original icon and saving at the same name, but without the umlaut. The licensing on the file is not quite right (as I am not technically the creator of the image!). However, it does seem to solve the problem.
So, should we look at renaming these files, without umlauts?
EdJogg 15:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Seems like a good idea to me, if someone can provide a bot to change all the relevant articles. --Dr Greg 17:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
You might want to hold off on mass-renaming the files. I should be able to take a look at this and hopefully be able to fix it within 24 hours. —Remember the dot (talk) 18:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Since the file is centrally held on the commons wouldn't we need a consesnus across several projects for rename ??? It also sounds like a lot of work to re do all the routemaps, although bot assistance sounds good. Pickle 01:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Mass renaming is not only impractical, but it is now entirely unnecessary. Bypass your cache and you will see that the IE6 workaround script no longer creates problems for these images. —Remember the dot (talk) 03:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well that has worked for me! Thank you for whatever you did to solve this!
EdJogg 08:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

New "RoutemapRoute" Template (Redesigned)

On a routemap, where a branch line joins a main line, there is often a need to show the direction of traffic flow on the major route. Although this can be achieved with normal text, the wording can be cumbersome and may require multiple lines to include.

To get round this problem, I have created {{RoutemapRoute}}, which allows the editor to specify the 'to' and/or 'from' destinations of the route in question and show this information graphically. For example: (Left arrow Bristol Temple Meads – Paddington Right arrow)

The template may be seen in use on the routemap for Staines to Windsor & Eton Line, where it clarifies the junction layout at Staines. The template code may be added to a BS field in the same way as for a wikilink or straight text, so it is simple to use.

Note that the template has now been completely re-designed (from the protoype previously described here) to allow any combination of left/right/up/down arrows and one or two placenames. For further details, see the template documentation at {{RoutemapRoute}}.

EdJogg 17:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Viewing Notes using FireFox on Macs

CTRL Template Mac FF screen grab.jpg

As discussed at Template talk:Channel Tunnel Rail Link#Impossible to read, I am using a Mac at home and viewing the Notes fields in the template is almost impossible (see the screen grab). Is there anything that can be done to fix this in the template? Nomadtales 07:20, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I had an identical problem using Camino. I fixed it by setting inserting this into my user style:
body {
    font-size:7.85pt;
}
This made the font big enough to be smooth, but small enough to avoid causing gaps to appear in the line (usually). Maybe it's time we thought about bringing this to the template itself.--Max Talk (+) 07:36, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Safari on Mac now displays an error icon in place of the padding on the left, while Firefox displays variable padding, and so the vertical line is no lo aligned. Surely Wikipedia should be platform independent and more robust than this--Oldboltonian 08:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Icons missing?

STR and leer do not appear to be displaying currently on Firefox or IE7... they seem to be still in commons, is there a fault? Geoff Riley 11:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

GreenBrowser as well. Tried to delete the temporary internet files and ctrl+refresh, no good. -- Sameboat - 同舟 12:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

There was a discussion elsewhere about this issue. It seems a large number of images are affected, and the devs are working on it. Slambo (Speak) 16:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Changing trains?

What is the proper way to signify a change in trains? For example, the Amtrak Cascades route goes from Vancouver, BC, to Seattle, WA, but to continue on to Eugene, OR, passengers must change trains, even though the line is still called Cascades. The timetable restarts the mileage at Seattle. How should I represent this? I am currently working on the template in my sandbox.--Max Talk (+) 18:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Update: I have now moved the template to the Amtrak Cascades article.--Max Talk (+) 19:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Tough question, I would have run two lines using a wide template like BS5. Pickle 01:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Agreed - I would use BS2 for this. Let me know if you'd like me to try updating the page appropriately, Max. AlexTiefling 10:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand this template not to describe the route of trains, but the physical layout of the tracks the train runs on.--L.Willms 07:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Using BS Templates in Ferropedia (Spanish)

We have started to use the BS templates and icons in Ferropedia (Spanish), (introduction in this page). We find the system excellent but we are encountering some strange minor problems. We wonder if somebody else has experienced similar problems.

  • Although we have uploaded the same icons from commons (using the same German names), a few of them do not show correctly. In particular, we have problems with icons of the series "t" (tunnel). Looking in the table of this page you may notice that some of the symbols appear as a light pink line instead of a broken line, whereas the other ones appear correctly.
  • In the same table, sign exBRÜCKE1 is dark red instead of pale pink
  • In the same table, several of the BRÜCKE signs do not appear, although they have been uploaded. Our experience is that after several hours or even days they may suddently appear (and they stay!). We had the same problem with the ÜST signs. Is the "Umlaut" the problem?

In addtion, we will need in the future two new icons. If somebody would like to help is welcome. They re the following:

  • Icon for automatic gauge change (presently there are around such 15 installations, in the future more than 30 will be necessary in Spain.

Otherwise all seems to work fine and we are profiting a lot of your excellent work! --Ferropediamember 16:49, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Overpass to change the left (France) to right (Spain) circulation" - ÜST - Track Switch is the one you are looking for. --L.Willms 07:35, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
You could do it this way
Cambio - switching sides


or that way
Cambio - switching sides


Sorry, I don't get the two tables both lined up to the right... Saludos,--L.Willms 06:23, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Collapsible help

Midland line route map
0:00 Christchurch
0:00 Main South Line junction(Rolleston)
- Darfield
- Whitecliffs Branch
- Oxford BranchTo Main North Line
- Sheffield
- Springfield
- Springfield
- Tunnel 1
- Tunnels 2 - 4
- Staircase viaduct
- Tunnels 5 - 7
- Tunnels 8 - 10
- Tunnels 11 - 16
- Waimakariri River bridge
- Cass
- Arthur's Pass
-
(8.6km) Otira Tunnel
-
- Otira
- Jackson
- Moana
- Otira
- Stillwater - Westport Line
- Brunner
- Rapahoe BranchFormerly Rewanui Branch
212km Greymouth
- Hokitika BranchFormerly to Ross

Can some explain why the various rows of text are not aligning properly? The problem has something to do with the collapsible section in the middle, but I cannot see what is wrong.--Max Talk (+) 02:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's because collapsible sections cause the generation of multiple tables; these separate tables render according to the column widths of the individual contents and since there is no link, they can end up different widths.
The only way around it that I can think of is to make sure that there is equivalent width textural content in each position --- in the time/metres field for example. Geoff Riley 06:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
My "solution" (kludge) for the moment is to fill the distance column with '   ' (3 digit-width blank spaces, a special unicode character). See results on Template:Rantarata (Finnish coastal railway) and Template:Caledonian Sleeper. —Sladen12:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this shows up as a rectangle on browsers without that unicode installed. Would   work instead? – Tivedshambo (talk) 14:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
The only way to guarantee that ' ' is the same width as a digit, would be to force that column to use a monospace font (that way '0km' would line up aswell). But surely there should be a better way to fix it in the original macro (I tried and failed, experiments at [Template:BS3-startCollapsible/Test]]). —Sladen 19:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I tried to correct this problem when I originally wrote the templates and failed. A hack is to style the filler digits in white. But your best bet is to try and get a guru in WP:WPT to take an interest. Vagary 20:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Collapsible help needed

Hello everybody!

We, in the portuguese wikipedia begun a Route diagram template, and we've basically copied the entire system based here, to provide as much compatibility with the other wikis and to make also the upgrades much easier. That is, all file and article names' are perfect replicas from here. Even the Route diagram template project page is (yet) in english.

Everything is working perfectly except the very last thing, the collapsible templates simply don't work no matter what.

Comparison example:
pt:[4] <-> [5]:en


We've double and triple checked every single line of code, and no error was found. The only hipothesis we've reached for this problem was that we might have missing the called class="collapsible collapsed" in our wiki's "background" code.

I've talked to the admins of the pt.wiki, and in spite all their support in trying to solve this problem, by copying the missing class code from the en.wiki, they couldn't do anything because they simply haven't found it.

So that's it. We hope that anyone have pity on us (:P) and point us the way, since we are clueless to solve this (possibly) tiny problem.

Thank you in advance,

Barao78 03:34, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you need to look at MediaWiki:Common.js as I believe the logic of collapsing is done by java code. I am not familiar with java but perhaps you or your admins could start by looking there. Oosoom Talk to me 08:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, it's done by ECMAScript (JavaScript). Does any of the stuff in WP:NAVFRAME work on pt.wiki? Vagary 20:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the NavFrame works in the pt.wiki. I tried to use that class in my templates, but i failed, and besides it would mean a big change in the code as it is now in the en.wiki, making later updates harder when you guys make updates here, since we use ou as a reference.
I'll see if i can convince my admins to give again an eye to the new collapsible classes here. As far as I see the new classes will replace NavFrame's classes, so I guess it's a matter of time to be coppied there.
Greetings,
Barao78 22:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The problem is definitely that the collapsible tables code isn't installed on pt.wikipedia.org. You just need to get the admins there to copy the relevant sections of code over from en:Mediawiki:common.js to pt:Mediawiki:common.js, and collapsible tables should start working. The code is maintained by User:Ruud Koot, who should be able to assist your admins with the task. Mayalld 12:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
How about the collapsible tables? Vagary 07:13, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Contradictions and Inconsistencies

I have been browsing a few of the templates for trains and have found some inconsistencies and Contradictions. The West Coast Way line shows distances in chains yet links to the East Coast Way line which shows distances in kilometers and then the South Western Main Line doesn't state any distances. The templates which state distances also do not state distances for all stations or in some cases very few, the first two mentioned are examples. Some of the maps such as the New Guildford Line show the A and M roads and rivers which are crossed where as the Reading to Plymouth Line does not show any despite crossing the M4 and crossing a number of rivers. Also some such as the Marshlink Line includes disabled access. There are other symbols which appear such as air and ferry ports on some but this seems to be uniform at all air and ferry ports. I though it best to bring this here as templates, maps and diagrams should be as far as possible uniform, I am not sure what to do with regards to these issues and though raising he issue here would help. Many thanks --Lisa666 00:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the Scottish ones (via the lists of Operating Routes and Historical Lines) there are similar issues. Distances have not been included. Major rivers (Clyde and Kelvin) have been added to Glasgow Central Railway but not tunnels; Template:Lanarkshire and Ayrshire Railway includes the one tunnel on the route; Ayrshire Coast Line show the Arran and Great Cumbrae ferries, whilst Inverclyde Line does not show the Dunoon (from Gourock) or Rothesay (from Wemyss Bay) ferries. --Stewart (talk) 00:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
While we should be concerned about inconsistencies, there is no point getting worked-up about it at the moment (NB I'm not implying that Lisa666 is worked-up about it!). Firstly, there will always be differing levels of detail between the diagrams, particularly where inclusion of bridges and tunnels are concerned, depending on the length of route being described. For example, Great Western Main Line could not possibly show all the bridges for its multi-hundred-mile route, whereas the Windsor Branch Line can show all the major roads and rivers crossed (NB - that route is less than two miles long, and omits at least 4 further road bridges!!). Secondly, the articles themselves will vary in quality, and I would expect each routemap to acquire 'polish' over time.
Perhaps Lisa666's suggestions should be the start of a discussion about areas that might usefully be standardised, for example, with regard to display of distances. (Note - a map may currently omit distances due to lack of information available to the map's creator -- none of my maps include distances, but I can determine junction layouts from OS maps and aerial photos).
I would suggest that to progress these ideas, a 'Routemap Standardisation Task Force' could be established within the project to concentrate on such matters (sorry, not volunteering! :o) )
EdJogg 06:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. Lisa666 started making contributions to WP on the same day that User:Lucy-marie was blocked!! It must be a coincidence that a new contributor picks up the topic of distances etc. after what we went through recently! My antennae detect the odour of feet insulators. Canterberry 07:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Definitely cheesey. I checked 'her' contribs and they don't stretch back very far. Perhaps we should be suspicious of any user who choses to include '666' in their name. Although to do so would risk Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobia!!
(Isn't it amazing what you can learn from editing Wikipedia...?) EdJogg 08:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I am a new user and have not heard of this other user. I think that as I have decided to start editing with a proper account and all, that I should start somewhere that I have a genuine Intrest. We all have to start somewhere. I say that the standardisation task force would be a good thing. I would like some help in knowing how to set up such a force and who can help etc. I would like input on things such as what is the standard distances to use or if distances are to be used at all and weather major roads etc, should be included and so on. I thank you for you replies and am not sure about the feet refrences, but shall take it I stumbled accross something old and smelly but shall not take the comments as anything more than harmless. Many Thanks--Lisa666 13:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:TRAIL is absolutely the wrong place for standardization. Go bring it up on WP:UKT or WP:TWP. WP:TRAIL is attempting to provide a tool that can be used globally. The contexts in which the tool is used should determine how it is used. Vagary 23:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
many of the examples of too much detail are atricles where i have been "brutal" in my usage of all the features of WP:TRAIl when it was first launched on the english wikipedia. technical advancements meant features like collapisibilty are avaliable (check out the trans siberan or some of the aussie lines out of sydney) that allows key details to be shown and only the really important stuff. i really aprecaite where your coming from but as other editors have pointed out its very much a work in progress in "rolling out" routemaps and improving them. fundamentally they allow maps to be genereated very easily ;) Pickle 23:56, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Embedded legend?

Would it be possible, by using an expanding table, to have the legend link in {{BS-table}} expand to show the legend as a template when clicked, rather than as a direct link? This would mean users could see the map and the legend together, rather than having to use the back button on their browsers. – Tivedshambo (talk) 21:47, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

As the other discussions on this page attest, the expanding tables are not the most reliable mechanism. :D Personally I think the legend would look best as a pop-up like WP:POPUPS, although there's no way to implement something like that for all users. You might be interested in the discussions of IPA pronunciation at Template talk:Ʒ, particularly the creative uses of the title attribute. Vagary 04:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Collapsible problem

Its been brought to my attention (see here) that an editor using IE is experiencing graphical display "incosistences" (photo here) when concerning the North London Line (ie Template:North London Line. I on the other don't have the problem when using XP & IE7 or firefox 1.5. Pickle 00:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

That problem looks familiar: it was the kind of layout issue I encountered while getting the collapsible stuff working. I don't recall what specifically caused it. I don't have access to IE (and, frankly, am not the most qualified person to diagnose collapsible issues), but if Hammersfan produces a minimal test case I'll certainly take a look at it. Vagary 04:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Replacement of large parallel interchange (CPIC) symbol set

current version
option 1
option 2
option 3

So the general consensus (actually by 3 users plus me) concluded the CPIC replacement by option 2. But more comments or submissions are still welcome. Now my major concern is that whether overwrite the current version by new option or not, once the full set (raw, t, ex, u, ut, uex) of new option is done. Overwriting the old version can reduce the frustration of editing the existing digrams which already apply the CPIC set, if MOST editors prefer this replacement. I think I won't wait for too long. I will start creating the new set based on option 2 and overwrite CPIC for 0 opposition in this weekend. -- Sameboat - 同舟 03:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Since these elements are on Commons, is it necessary to check with any other wikis that use the same base? (Ignorance of who shares commons showing here a little!) Geoff Riley 07:43, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
If we make a decision quickly, that should not be necessary, since Sameboat was the person who drew them in the first place and they are not in widespread use yet. (Incidentally, for 'vote-counting' purposes, I am one of the 3 users mentioned above...) EdJogg 09:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Template BSe

The project page stated that this was considered obsolete. Very few pages were using it so I converted all references except those on user pages to to use Template BS instead and also made some updates to the project page. Unless anyone objects, it might be a good idea to get the BSe template deleted.Meddlin' Pedant 18:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

very good, I agree. HandigeHarry 19:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

This has now been deleted. Meddlin' Pedant 11:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Help with template

Hello - can someone please fix the error in Template:Gwabegar Line - the problem icon is opposite Gulgong station on the line. I made my own icon for it (to show the two lines passing through the station area but only the branch line actually serves the platform road), but it doesn't seem to be working. Thanks. JRG 03:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

fixed, here's the code for reference. Remember the canvas size for a standard full-size icon must be 500*500. -- Sameboat - 同舟 04:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>
<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd">
<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg"
     width="500" height="500" viewBox="0 0 500 500" preserveAspectRatio="none">
<rect width="100" height="500" x="75" y="0" fill="#be2d2c" />
<circle cx="125" cy="250" r="100" fill="#d77f7e" />
<rect width="100" height="500" x="325" y="0" fill="#d77f7e" />
</svg>

Composite icons

Examples
Base +
Float
Result

I have just developed a method to increase the icon variety, after grasping an idea from the archive. By superimposing (or stacking) existing icons in the diagram box, it is possible to have more icons and suit the real routes better. I have tried implementing those on some real-world railways in User:Peterwhy/Sandbox3. The template is User:Peterwhy/tBS3. -PeterCX&Talk 13:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Result
Agree. The superimposing solves the route color scheme problem as well. -- Sameboat - 同舟 13:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Nice to see someone appreciating this idea. Does anyone using any browser observe any graphical problems on the icons? Also is there someone object the use of the idea? - PeterCX&Talk 12:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The examples above work fine on Mozilla Firefox. Pyrotec 13:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
It even works in IE6, so I expect it'll work with any decent browser ;-)  – Tivedshambo (talk) 14:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
If we bring it practical, I'm thinking to start a new Wiki Project bears different name to BS project. As we have already futhered the usage to another direction without consensus with the DE original creator. At this rate, the BS policies written in commons page may seem unsuitable to the superimpose template. Any thought? -- Sameboat - 同舟 23:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
This time I am not going to agree. The idea does not violate the policy; it uses the same set of icons, and the same meanings of icons. Also, if we are going to have a new project, we will have to create a new set of icons, and that is actually going to the opposite way. The idea is to expand the variety of icons to suit the needs of new icons with simple wiki editor, instead of using .svg editors. But anyway, I agree that it's always better to discuss with Wikipedians of other languages. - PeterCX&Talk 08:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Peter: The divergence that has been progressing here doesn't negate what is being done with the original project; we should be looking to include the original developers in the further development. The use of superimposition illustrated here would be of use to all the Wikis: it could greatly simplify the number of additional icons that are needed. Are there any of the German devs looking in here? Geoff Riley 09:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Just to inform that I have just left a message in de:Wikipedia Diskussion:Formatvorlage Bahnstrecke#Composite icons (in English Wikipedia) - PeterCX&Talk 12:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Good man! I'm afraid I don't understand German, but I can see that there is already come comment on the fact. Geoff Riley 17:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess they claim that the .svg icons are not transparently shown in German Wikipedia like in English Wikipedia, and probably therefore it seems that they are not really concerned about it. - PeterCX&Talk 16:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Examples
HLUECKE STRlg tSTR exSTRrg exHLUECKE
FLUG BHF tWSTR exWBRÜCKE WASSER

Now some problems were observed. User:DavidArthur found that there are some misalignments when mixing BS, BS3 and BS5. Probably it is also true for BS2 and BS4. Does someone observe that too? And if it's true, how can I fix it? – PeterCX&Talk 23:54, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems caused by the browser rendition. The graph looks correctly without undesired shifting in MyIE, GreenBrowser and IE7. In fact I have encountered the similar misalignments when creating BS graph, but that is a completely different story and does not involve the composite template. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I am seeing an icon shift in Firefox (v2.0.0.9). In the example you have produced, the second and fourth graphic lines, the BS3 lines, are displaced to the left such that there appears to be a track running above and below the aircraft symbol.
Examining the generated html, the BS3 lines generate with the cell defined as: <td align="center" style="padding: 0pt; text-align: center; white-space: nowrap;">; at a long shot, could the belt and braces alignment be causing such a misalignment? --Geoff Riley (talk) 11:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Belt and braces alignment? Sorry, I don't understand the term =) – PeterCX&Talk 12:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Peter, I was referring to the fact that the code was generating both align="center" and text-align: center; within the data cell attributes. I cannot honestly see that being the problem, but it was the most obvious difference between the BS5 and BS3 formats.
The term 'belt and braces is an old term implying that more than one thing is being done to assure success, literally using both a belt and braces (suspenders in American English) to hold up your trousers. --Geoff Riley (talk) 13:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh I see. Actually, originally only style parameter was used for alignment (when I edited the previous BS), but then I knew that there is something wrong, and so I tried to add the align parameter to see if it works. Now I know that is redundant, but then I did not remove either one of it, nor adding it to BS5.– PeterCX&Talk 13:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm also using Firefox (v2.0.0.9) & I'm see the same displacement.Pyrotec (talk) 12:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Now I try to make some comparisons here:

1 Center Left Default
2
Center
Left
Default
3
Center
Left
Default

How are the inner tables above shown in Firefox? – PeterCX&Talk 14:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In Safari 2.0.4, the third ‘centred’ box is left-aligned. Also, I’ve been seeing various edits to route diagrams which suggest that many people have seen the same problems since the templates were modified, even though they don’t all understand the cause. David Arthur (talk) 15:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
And the same is true in Firefox 2.0.0.7. Oosoom Talk 15:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Ditto with Firefox 2.0.0.9. -- Geoff Riley (talk) 20:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
4
Center
N/A
Default

What about <center> tag? – PeterCX&Talk 10:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Its centred in FireFox (2.0.0.9). Same as MS Internet Explorer (7.0.5730.11).Pyrotec (talk) 10:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Single/Double

Do people think that icons on single tracks and double tracks should be created, or would that overcomplicate things? Simply south 16:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This would be too much detail, in my opinion. These are route diagrams, not track diagrams. – Tivedshambo (talk) 16:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Definitely overcomplicating things; we'll end up producing points, signals, station layouts, etc.... where would it end? Geoff Riley 17:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmmmm. Signals. Now there's an idea... EdJogg 20:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Ha ha, good joke.... Err, you are joking aren't you?
Crumbs, just thinking about it.... upper and lower quadrant semaphores, two, three, four aspect lights.... Nah, must be a joke! Geoff Riley 20:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Afraid not, its actually because a junction on the ECML got me thinking. To get to this branch, trains have to move from the northbound line to the southbound line and then onto a singl-track which runs beside the ECML. After a few yards it leaves the ECML altogether but turns into a 2-track. This particular branch is the one north of Doncaster, with the line heading for Hull. Simply south 21:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Something similar also happens to this at either end of the Hitchin-Cambridge Line. Simply south 21:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
You could probably argue similar things for many places. The present routemap lines may indicate one, two, four or more tracks, and junctions are (hopefully) shown with 'geographical accuracy' within the capabilities of the icons. Where a junction has a restriction such as the ones you mentioned (and also like the bottleneck for the 'Southern' services to Platform 4A/4B at Reading) it is not unreasonable to mention this in the text, since it is likely to have an impact on operations. If the exact track layout is that significant, you probably need to provide a separate graphic. (but don't forget the signals :o) )
EdJogg 22:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
:S, :o Simply south 22:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

S-Bahn Icon to be replaced

I think one should look for or create another icon for use outside of Germany for the S-Bahn logo, the white S in a green round. This is a brand logo originally for the Berlin S-Bahn, later adopted for the Hamburg S-Bahn, and nowadays used for all other S-Bahn systems in other regions of Germany. It is confusing to see this logo being used to describe rail lines on Great Britain, the USA, or where else. For Transport for London the circle with the horizontal bar would be the right replacement.
--L.Willms 07:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, AFAIK the LT Roundel is a trademark and the copyright of TfL (and London Transport before them). Its usage is therefore tightly controlled, and, even though it would be in their interest to show it on the routemaps, TfL are unlikely to permit its usage on a licence suitable for WP.
It's interesting you mention that the S-in-a-circle is a brand logo for the Berlin S-Bahn. Does that mean it is also covered by restricted copyright?
No. I don't think that any copyright issues preclude the use of the S-Bahn logo. It just looks weird to me seeing it used in context outside of Germany.--L.Willms 16:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
If you look into the archives, there have been many discussions about the inappropriateness of the 'S', but so far, no-one has come up with a usable alternative! Perhaps the involvement of WikiProject London Transport would be a good idea?
EdJogg 09:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we could substitute something like Ø or Φ or even ɸ from the wiki editor? Lynbarn 12:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
A (frequently orange) capital 'M' (for metro) in a square box seems to be pretty common; would that work and be flexible enough for The Tube, tram and other Metro systems? —Sladen 12:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I’d support the M for all metros, and perhaps a new icon to indicate trams. David Arthur 15:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
'M' for Metro -- I think that should be in a sqare standing on a corner.--L.Willms 16:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Sinnbild Straßenbahn.svg
a) I agree we need something (anyhting!) other than the current s-bhan logo thingy.
b) re trams, take a look at line slike Brighton Main Line and you see we're using this little icon File:Sinnbild Straßenbahn.svg
Pickle 18:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
AFAIK, there are limitations on how rigorously TfL could enforce ownership of the Roundel. In particular, I imagine that only the correctly-coloured roundel would stand alone, as a circle with a horizontal bar through it would by themselves be common property. For lines around Paris, the Métro logo (a letter M in a circle) certainly isn't sufficiently distinctive as to be protected. 90.203.45.110 19:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the interchange symbol used on LU maps an obvious choice? Kevin Steinhardt 21:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Note that, in early October, File:Underground no-text.svg (the London Underground roundel) was uploaded and is now being used in the s-rail templates for tube lines (and hence in every tube station article). The image description page claims that the image is not copyright but is a trade mark. I don't know the legalities of what that means.

However, note also that File:Underground.svg, uploaded by the same person, has been requested for deletion on copyright grounds. --Dr Greg (talk) 13:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

London Underground, as the Trade Mark owner, controls the use of the Trade Mark and unless wikipedia has the owner's authorisation to make use of it, wikipedia is breaching the owner's rights. Removing the image is probably correct approach, but the reason given - Copyright - may not be entirely accurate.Pyrotec (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, the trademark is now owned by Transport for London and the usage has expanded greatly in recent times with the Roundel popping up all over the place. Certainly the font that is used (Johnstone?) is rigorously protected, but I think that the diverse use of the Roundel has diluted the claim on the Trade Mark. The 'discussion' on the deletion appears to be a total of 2 comments from October 27 with no actual decision made. --Geoff Riley (talk) 19:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I think there is some confusion here between trademarks and copyright. If something is copyright, then you can't use it without permission. But, as far as I understand, you can use a trademark (provided you do not breach copyright) without permission as long as you don't misuse it. So, for example, you don't need the permission of Coca-Cola to use its trademark "Coke" to describe its drink. But you can't describe some other cola drink as "Coke". So my interpretion would be that you could use the roundel (if copyright permits it) to describe a London Tube station, but not a Glasgow Underground station. I'm no expert, I could be completely wrong, but that's how it seems to me. --Dr Greg (talk) 18:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

More alignment issues

If you look at Template:East London Line is MSie you will see a continuous line south of Sydenham and north of Norwood Junction; if you look at it in Firefox there are substantial discontinuities at those points. Not using MSie normally I adjusted the diagram to produce a version which worked correctly (in Firefox) but now *this* shows a discontinuity in MSie. Heads we win, tails you lose? Ideas? --AlisonW (talk) 17:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

In Firefox 2.0.0.9 I see two gaps in the working correctly version, in the left hand track opposite the Chatham Main line Crystal Palace junctions in the right hand track. But, I agree it has fixed the south of Sydenham and north of Norwood Junction discontinuities.Pyrotec (talk) 17:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
looks again ... ah yes, I see what you mean. the offset-problem at the Sydenham and Norwood points is then re-shifted in the middle. So my revision isn't complete (though sorts some problems) either. This multi-browser issue is a bit of a show stopper though for complex line maps :-( --AlisonW (talk) 18:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
We edit conflicted - Having opened up MS Internet Explorer 7.0.5730.11, I can confirm that the Template works, but the modified version gives a discontinuity. The problem with Firefox appears to be that the two parallel sections have shifted themselves one column to the left. Pyrotec (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Yay! I've reworked it again after your comment and I now get it to view fine in both Firefox and MSie. Confirm? The 'trick' was to make the whole sequence of boxes BS4 not switch between BS2 and BS4 --AlisonW (talk) 18:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Confirmed - Template works under both Firefox (2.0.0.9) and MS IE (7.0.5730.11)Pyrotec (talk) 19:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Test your browsers

Demo
Grid with BS2
All in the middle
Shift with BS here
and BS2 for this
All Icons in BS3
Is this universal?
Now all in BS4
Left aligned?

Yes the problem here (or what is a nice solution for some users) is simply caused by mixing differently numbered BS Templates and it is actually the resulting misalignment that makes certain icons appear to connect in some browsers. Icons like BS2rf, used at Sydenham Junction, should not line up with the centre of a regular icon like HST, used at Sydenam, because it ends in a corner, but due to mixed templates there is a shift to place all the icons in the middle of the available space. Therefore if the available space is four icons, BS places its single icon in the middle and BS2 similarly places its two in the middle which results in an apparent half icon width shift between odd and even numbered BS Templates.

Unfortunately all browsers do not seem to interpret this exactly in the same manner and to be universally compatible we may have to think of the system as a grid; if you need a total of five spaces wide use BS5 on every line and insert empty or "||" fields, which would result in the elimination of those special uncentered icons which work so well in IE. Secondarywaltz (talk) 20:13, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

From the top, #3 and #4 line up in Firefox for me, whereas #2, #3 and #4 line up visually in MSie. #1 in both shows them vertically above each other, but Firefox #1 and #2 are offset to the left of centre of the frame. btw, I'm sure when I first used the program it suggested keeping a consistent 'grid-width' throughout? --AlisonW (talk) 20:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I think you have probably confirmed my supicion that IE centres and Firefox left aligns. Always using the full width for templates was the way that I have also interpreted the instructions. Secondarywaltz (talk) 21:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. I'm just looking at this now the next day and now all four line up in Firefox. I'm guessing someone might have changed one of the template structures somewhere? --AlisonW (talk) 14:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
You are correct in saying that these are now lining up correctly... however, the example above (in the composite icons section) is still incorrect, so if there has been some changes in templates then they haven't fully covered the faults. --Geoff Riley (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I still see the bottom one left aligned, but the rest do line up. And, the row immediately above and below the aircraft row are still shifted left by one column. Pyrotec (talk) 21:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah... just checked and the example above is using templates in Peters user space, so I wasn't comparing like with like. --Geoff Riley (talk) 21:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Woops, sorry
Examples

This now works for me in FireFox - Well sorted Geoff . Pyrotec (talk) 22:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

That's it: looking good! That's without any composite icons isn't it? --Geoff Riley (talk) 23:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The composite icons always worked for me in FireFox, presummably because they always had equal columns; it was only the mixed BS5 / BS3 diagrams that looked confusing.Pyrotec (talk) 09:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify if anyone didn't notice. In fact the template-namespace {{BS}} and {{BS3}} have been reverted and do not support composite, while {{BS2}}, {{BS4}} and {{BS5}} were corrected by me some days before (using <center>), and probably that's why some of you here have experienced a sudden correction. Sorry for making such a great trouble to all of you, and the composite function is ready to be transfered from BS2, BS4 or BS5 to BS and BS3. – PeterCX&Talk 15:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

So is the composite function ready for primetime for BS and BS3? :) - oahiyeel talk 10:25, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Haha~ After solving the alignment problems, they are ready to be used, even in startCollapsible templates! Follow the red category below to see a list of pages using composite icons.
Previously I intended to create the composite functions as a temporary substitution for icons to be created. Therefore I linked the function to the category to notify others. Now I am not sure about the exact aim, so I don't know whether the category should be created or linked. Probably it is going to be used as another common feature. – PeterCX&Talk 11:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)