Wikipedia talk:Service awards

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How many editors qualify for each level?[edit]

I would like to see an automated table displaying how many editors qualify for each service award, with those who qualify for a higher award removed from all the lower awards, so that the total number is accurate. Binksternet (talk) 05:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we have no means of knowing for sure, since a user with multiple accounts, or who had a long IP editing history before creating their account, will have a lower "aparent rank" than their real one; and I don't think there's any good reason to prevent a user from holding on to old awards here. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 13:22, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Good idea - it would help give us a sense of how well the award limits relate to the folks we're trying to engage! We couldn't use it as the definitive authority on who qualifies, since it would be hard to be exact, as noted, but we could come very close prettily easily. ★NealMcB★ (talk) 15:48, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't think we should be designing this just based on what existing editors already qualify for, the project is barely 14 years old, our service award scheme might still be in use in thirty years time. There is an element of aspiration in the scheme and that is healthy. ϢereSpielChequers 11:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Alternative award system idea[edit]

Carrying forward in the spirit of some of the ideas and concerns forwarded in the above sections, I was wondering; what about an award system that is perhaps based more on the presumable contribution of total edits rather than simply the quantity thereof? Admittedly, there is no processor currently more capable than the human mind of determining what are meaningful contributions, and even then opinions differ, but perhaps one systematic way of approximating such would be an award system based upon the total number of characters or bytes; a summation of all of an editor's edits (perhaps add the total number of bytes deleted, then added to a total number of bytes added, to equally reward editors who perform deletions and help remove any notion of "inclusionist bias").

One plus side of such a system, is that there is a large degree of preexisting quality control. Wikipedia is excellent at preventing and reversing vandalism and other non-contributory edits. Spamming particularly large edits (the type that would threaten the integrity of such an award system) would naturally garner the most attention and be the most likely to be corrected. It could be decided whether edits done in special places such as sandboxes or user pages would count toward such an award or not.

One down side of such a system, is that a means of determining an editors total characters/bytes added and/or deleted would need to be devised. Although, with such information already existing within each user's list of edit contributions, the task should be a fairly straightforward one. Perhaps the good folks at Wikimedia Tool Labs could create such a thing?

Does this idea have any merit or is it simply wishful thinking? I'm sure there are many other aspects to this, both positive and negative, I can't currently see. Buddy23Lee (talk) 21:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Excellent idea!! We just need to write the code. Sounds like a fun project for learning how to work with big data in new frameworks like Spark :) ★NealMcB★ (talk) 15:51, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Though I have a feeling that this idea, and/or many similar ones, have probably arisen on many long past talk pages only to meet with eventual dereliction. I suppose if this generally finds enough support here, or at least doesn't meet with the vehement opposition of editors who can see some fatal flaw, as I've been half expecting, I'll try to compose a more formal proposal. Any more opinions prior to this would be greatly appreciated. :) Buddy23Lee (talk) 23:03, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Tutnum weirdness[edit]

It's weird. When you Google "tutnum" the results include the image for this award - plus dozens of images of inverted nipples. WTH? Lightbreather (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Face-tongue.svg Things that make you go huh ! Mlpearc (open channel) 17:48, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
That is weird. I introduced "Tutnum" here and I can assure you it's not intentional. I got it from an old Gilbert Shelton comic, where one panel features "The American Tutnum" which is an Uncle Sam whose head is made of hundreds of tiny heads, same sort of concept as original cover of Hobbes's Leviathan. AFAIK Shelton made up the word. Apparently "Tut num" means "inverted nipple" (or something) in transcripted Vietnamese which is why you are getting that. Herostratus (talk) 11:34, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Edit and day[edit]

For those awards, the number of edits should me made in that particular period of time mentioned aGainst it?
aGastya  ✉ let's talk about it :) 05:07, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

You need both, is how it's treated. You don't need to do it in that time frame, but it has to be both. Achowat (talk) 07:46, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for informing @Achowat:
aGastya  ✉ let's have a constructive talk about it (: 19:18, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Length of time since account created[edit]

The "in a nutshell" box reads "...service award, which denotes time served and ..."

Is that deliberately humorous? Maybe something else, like "active time" or "time investment"? Shankarsivarajan (talk) 16:12, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Much of this is tongue in cheek, including the book version of the awards, however "Time served" is usually used to measure how long one was in a particular position, job, service or jail, length of service would be equally accurate, but a nutshell should use the shorter phrase. Active time and time investment I would understand as measuring the time actually contributed to the project. Since we don't do timesheets, active time or time investment in Wikipedia is hard to measure. If we were running a charity shop one might do things differently, the volunteer who does a two hour stint every Saturday morning for two years has donated as much of their time as the person who for 6 months was in the shop for 8 hours every Wednesday. Writing an encyclopaedia is a very different undertaking, we can readily measure how many edits someone has made and how long ago they first made an edit. So Time served should stay as neither active time nor time investment would be accurate. ϢereSpielChequers 06:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
It is the "time since you first created your account". • SbmeirowTalk • 18:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Personally I think it's hilarious that it uses "time served".  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  04:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Do editors get parole after a certain amount of time served? Ah sorry, yes it's time since account created. Mootros (talk) 06:20, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

We need a moratorium on changing the requirements[edit]

The requirements (in time or edits) keep randomly changing, and have been for years. Just leave it alone. The recent massive expansion at Wikipedia:Incremental service awards (Ribbons) has introduced new date requirements that directly contradict those of Wikipedia:Service awards in some places, which is going to give some users the impression that others are falsifying their "editing credentials". Please fix this (by using the more stable requirements in the main page), and just let this lie as it is and quit monkeying around with it. After these requirements are normalized, any further changes should be done by RfC, or reverted, the same way unilateral additions to the main barnstars pages are reverted if they don't have consensus.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  00:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

I think this recent addition by AlexTheWhovian should be rolled back. The WP:Incremental service awards are intended for newer editors, not veterans who typically don't need this kind of goal. After rolling back, I agree that a moratorium is needed. However, the final/top service award has always been out of reach for 99.99999% of contributors, made so by adding new levels underneath it. At some point, the out-of-reach service award should be shelved, as it is not used by any who actually deserve it. Instead, it's used by by people such as this one, as a joke. Binksternet (talk) 02:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I disagree. Let it be. If they want to use them, they want to. If they don't, they don't. I put a lot of hard work into making these, and I feel that they can be used. And if you see a mistake which apparently contradicts the main service awards, perhaps you should fix it instead of believing you own this page and have the right to roll it back. :) Alex|The|Whovian 02:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, except multiple editors are objecting to what you've done without WP:Consensus and the problems introduced thereby. You should read that page and WP:OWN and revise your statement.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  04:54, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes should be rolled back. It looks like a blatant attempt to create a parallel scheme with its own time levels. Mootros (talk) 06:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
If it's a parallel scheme with its own time levels, then the entire thing should be removed, since what I've given i merely an expansion, not a new system. There's no such need for "consensus" when expanding the Wiki. If you see a problem, you should fix it, not remove it - removing valid edits can and will be considered disruptive. Each level of edits and each level of time served is in exact quarters of the increments between the main awards, just as the original five increments were. If the valid increments I've implemented have to be removed, I'm afraid I'll be faced with the issue of requesting a deletion of the entire incremental system, based entirely and fully upon the "arguments" you've presented here, as they apply exactly the same. Alex|The|Whovian 07:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
The fix in this instance is the rolling back of your work. You did something that was never needed, so it doesn't really matter here how hard you worked on it. If you nominate the awards system for deletion you will be disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. Is that what you want to do? Binksternet (talk) 07:48, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Wait a sec... I would support your nomination for deletion of the incremental service awards; in my above post I assumed you meant the main service awards. I don't think the incremental awards are useful enough to keep. Binksternet (talk) 07:52, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
"requesting a deletion of the entire incremental system". Alex|The|Whovian 07:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

User:AlexTheWhovian, on this page a "Novice editor" needs 200 edits and 1 month. On the page that you worked on, it looks like the same "Novice editor" needs 400 edits and 1 month 15 days. Its rather confusing to call these sublevels levels. Either way, you should establish consensus that the "incrementals" should go up all the way. You have have altered the main idea that these incremental awards were merely to encourage new editors. You have unilaterally altered a long standing agreement of the community not to have a more fine-grading scheme---and with it more (sub)levels. If I remember correctly, the "incremental awards" were some sort of compromise over exactly the question whether to have a finer grading or not. Please revert and try to establish consensus. Mootros (talk) 07:50, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Funny thing - I didn't change the Novice editor. You can see it's exactly the same as the old versions here for the main rewards page, and here for the incremental rewards page. Alex|The|Whovian 07:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, you didn't but it looks like it. The main point is that there is no consensus of going up even further with these incremental awards that were in the first place controversial. Mootros (talk) 07:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Colour me confused. It looks exactly the same as it did before I came along. (Because it is.) So, I'm not sure why you're bringing that up when it makes no sense? Alex|The|Whovian 08:00, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
OK, but the main issues remains: there is no consensus of developing further the incremental awards that were controversial in the first place. Mootros (talk) 07:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
If they were so controversial, why have they existed for over four years with nary a removal? And you still haven't concluded your reasons for the edit summary that it "aims to alter the time levels of Service Award". Alex|The|Whovian 08:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
The "Incremental Award" page existed as a compromise out of a discussion to have a finer grading of the main award. I'm sorry to have summarised the issue incorrectly. Forgive me! We appreciate your effort and hope you will stay with us in the future editing articles on this encyclopaedia. All the best, Mootros (talk) 09:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

All of this looks like WP:BRD. AlexTheWhovian, you made a bold edit, then it was reverted. Instead of immediately restoring it and crying "disruption," it should be discussed to completion. Lost on  Belmont 3200N1000W  (talk) 12:31, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, I wasn't objecting to there being sublevels, but rather to mismatches in the requirements. A proper sublevel structure would look like this:
  1. Title Foo requires A time, B edits
    1. Title Foo Sub1 requires A × 1.25 time, B × 1.25 edits
    2. Title Foo Sub2 requires A × 1.5 time, B × 1.5 edits
    3. Title Foo Sub3 requires A × 1.75 time, B × 1.75 edits
  2. Title Baz requires C time, D edits
    1. Title Baz Sub1 requires C × 1.25 time, D × 1.25 edits
[Edited to reflect correction below.] With no overlap of sublevels of one title with any other level or sublevel, and no conflict between the numbers. I don't really think that adding sublevels for every level is useful; it's not necessarily bad, but it seems pointless because the levels are for noob encouragement, not experienced editors' preening and editcountitis. What is bad is getting the numbers all bollixed up and overlapping/conflicting, or having titles and sublevels with conflicting names.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  07:15, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Actually, there's only three sublevels per reward. So it should be:
  1. Title Foo: X time, Y edits
    1. Title Foo Sub1 : X × 1.25 time, Y × 1.25 edits
    2. Title Foo Sub2 : X × 1.50 time, Y × 1.50 edits
    3. Title Foo Sub3 : X × 1.75 time, Y × 1.75 edits
  2. Title Baz: X × 2 time, Y × 2 edits
Alex|The|Whovian 07:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Okay (and sorry, I just changed the formatting to use different variables and stuff; edit conflict!) I'll edit the original table to reflect the correction.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  07:28, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


Please see here: Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Incremental_service_awards_(Ribbons)

Thank you for your input. Mootros (talk) 06:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

@JohnCD: So, you're going to close the discussion but not do anything about the now-useless templates or images? Great job! Alex|The|Whovian 05:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
@AlexTheWhovian: I didn't set about deleting them yesterday because (a) it looks like a fair bit of work understanding what needs to be done, and it was quite late where live, and (b) I thought I should see whether you want to do the "D" bit of WP:BRD and start a discussion here to see whether you can get consensus to restore them. JohnCD (talk) 20:38, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

We also have Barnstars[edit]

How about creating some new medals, ribbons, etc., for editors who have passed, say, 500,000 and 1,000,000 edits respectively? With the help of automating tools, any fool can "earn" the awards we've got now, but only four people have passed a million edits, and IMO deserve to be recognized as having done so. David Cannon (talk) 10:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

The Service Award is not meant for bots. Also people who run and maintain bots are usually no fools, but tend to contribute to this project in a meaningful way. If you want to honour them --or anyone else-- just go to their page and give them a Barnstar or two. Mootros (talk) 10:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I didn't call them fools. I use automating tools like AWB myself. But it certainly doesn't put me in the league of people like User:Koavf. Methinks we need some specific way to recognize users like him. David Cannon (talk) 12:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

TfD for service award templates[edit]

See Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 September 14#Service award templates. JohnCD (talk) 12:43, 14 September 2015 (UTC)