Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/4

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Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 10,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles. All Wikipedia editors are welcome to participate. Individual topics are proposed for addition or removal, followed by discussion and !voting. It is also possible to propose a swap of a new topic for a lower-priority topic already on the list.

All discussions will remain open for a minimum of 15 days.

1. After 15 days any proposal may be closed as PASSED if a) at least five !votes have been cast in support, and b) at least two-thirds of the total !votes support the proposal.
2. After 30 days any proposal may be closed as FAILED if it has a) earned at least 3 opposes, and b) failed to earn two-thirds support.
3. After 30 days any proposal may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if the proposal hasn't received any !votes for 30 or more days regardless of the !vote tally.
4. After 60 days any proposal may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if it has a) failed to earn at least 5 support !votes, and b) earned less than two-thirds support.

Nominations should generally be left open beyond the above-listed minimums if they have a reasonable chance of passing. Please be patient with our process. We believe that an informed discussion with more editors is likely to produce an improved and more stable final list. When proposing to add or remove a particular topic from the vital articles list, we strongly recommend that you review and compare the other topics in the same category in order to get a better sense of what is considered vital in that area.

When you are making a decision whether to add or remove a particular topic from the Vital Articles Level 4 list, we strongly recommend that you review and compare the other topics in the same category in order to get a better sense of what other topics are considered vital in that area. We have linked the sublists at the top of each proposal area.

• 15 days ago: 21:47, 4 April 2024 (UTC) ()
• 30 days ago: 21:47, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
• 60 days ago: 21:47, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Add one of Old World porcupine or Crested porcupine

Support

1. As nom Dawid2009 (talk) 13:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
2. Support Old World porcupine. --Thi (talk) 16:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
3. Support Old World porcupine. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Porcupine is already level 4. Are there any reasons to include Old World Porcupines that don't also apply to New World Porcupines? I'm not a huge fan of paraphyletic clades, but I think it's the best and most inclusive option here. Marchantiophyta 18:10, 03 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Certainly an interesting topic, but not vital. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 13:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per Marchantiophyta. starship.paint (RUN) 02:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Eventually we could reconsider Hystrix (mammal) Dawid2009 (talk) 04:40, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Swap: remove Franz Beckenbauer, add Bundesliga

Football league with too enduring significance against player who is rather forgotten for people who are not quite deeply interested in football. Now, when we have lower level 5 it is more important to among 10 000 articles make completness of Big Five leagues which are broad topics (cover clubs, everyday life etc.) than specific players from all ppositions. Dawid2009 (talk) 21:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Weak support. As someone who is not that much into sports, I've heard of Bundesliga; hence I think it is pretty well known for association football. No opinion on removal of the swap. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:32, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:09, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. Beckenbauer is one of the top 10 greatest in history. Not a swap that makes sense to me. Aszx5000 (talk) 02:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Beckenbauer is consistently listed on official FIFA dream teams and best XIs of all time. Considering that we list 11 male football players at Level 4 and Beckenbauer is usually mentioned as part of the best teams of all time (consisting of 11 players), he deserves a spot. Furthermore, just because an organization is broad and has notable members, it doesn't give it an automatic pass for inclusion on VA4. For example, we don't include UEFA  5 at VA4 even though they include all the European clubs, nations, and tournaments. And even more than that, I would rather see Serie A  5 get added before Bundesliga  5. I know you probably proposed the swap to exchange German for German but teams in Serie A have achieved much more success historically than Bundesliga teams. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose per above. Gizza (talk) 02:22, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Proposal: New rule that an article must be listed at a lower level before being nominated for inclusion at a higher level

There are currently 2 nominations for Level 4 inclusion for articles that are not currently listed at Level 5. Our general practice has been that articles must be listed at lower levels first before being considered for inclusion at higher levels. I propose that we make a formal rule that nominations can only be made at higher levels for articles that are already listed at the level immediately below. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
2. Support I'd also support articles that are removed from level 4 automatically being added to level 5 Lorax (talk) 06:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

   This is the status quo (as it should be), to be clear. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:47, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

3. Support (with amendment below). Makes sense that higher-level articles should require a bit more scrutiny for inclusion, and if a missing article is really that important, then it should easily pass the lower stages, so it should not be much more work. Also, strongly support Lorax's suggestion, since the levels are not independent and are hierarchical in nature. --Kammerer55 (talk) 21:51, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

   Actually, it seems that level 5 is still a bit chaotic for now: the talk-page is too long, rules are not stable, people are still officially allowed to modify the list without discussion etc., so maybe we should still allow direct Level 4 addition nominations (especially for obvious misses, like some important concepts). So, I suggest to keep a formal rule for Levels 1-3 that the nomination should start at Level 4 first and then go up step-by-step, but for Level 4 let's allow direct nominations (skipping Level 5), but require a formal disclosure that an article is not yet at Level 5 (and maybe provide an option to move discussion to Level 5, if people disagree with the nomination at Level 4). --Kammerer55 (talk) 22:57, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

4. Support, wondered if this would be too bureaucratic or inflexible (i.e. what if some major thing/event happened), but then realized that Level 4 should not be for things that are too current, so the need to do Level 5 first is a good idea. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:07, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Support I would like to see this rule enforced. However, I imagine most violators will site WP:IAR.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

   I think if we had a proper VA landing page that listed the guidelines for adding/removing VAs, than these discussions would have more lasting substance. At the moment, the closest thing we have to a landing page (WikiProject Vital Articles) is only focused on advice for how to bring VA to GA/FA? It should he all about the guidelines and policies for adding/removing VAs? Aszx5000 (talk) 12:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

6. Support Would ensure some stability. Betty Logan (talk) 10:40, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Has this been a problem? I'm not convinced a rule is necessary. Exempting current noms is a good example of what we'd be missing. czar 18:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I feel that the rule, if accepted, should not apply retroactively to current nominations. starship.paint (RUN) 15:45, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

+1. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Add Polish literature or swap with Jewish literature or Ancient Egyptian literature

Polish literature compared with Jewish has 2x interwiki links, equal page views, and equal number of Nobel prize lauratates (3 each, one of who, Singer, is Polish-Jewish). IMHO comparable to for example Spanish literature or such we list. Another swap to consider would be Ancient Egyptian literature which is of historical significance only and unlike Ancient Greek, Roman or Chinese diud not produce any enduing classics (side note here: we list Ancient Greek literature; sadly, neither Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Chinese literature have articles - the latter is just a redirect; to what degree with this overlaps with Chinese classics (V5) I am not sure ATM). Chinese classics may merit V4 discussion too. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. I certainly support adding Polish literature which is the oldest continuesly existing Slavic literatures, and arguably one of the two most important.
3. Support --Thi (talk) 12:57, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. Not sure that the swapping of Jewish or Egyptian literature is correct (both are historically important and of foundation in all literature). I would need to see a stronger case as to why Polish literature (as a standalone nom) is important in a world context? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose removals. Polish literature is potentially level 4 vital with figures such as Czesław Miłosz  5 but Jewish and Ancient Egypt literature are even more important. The Blue Rider 20:44, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. We list very few country literature articles and the countries we do list have been much more influential in literature than Poland has (France, Japan, Russia etc.). I'd much rather see American literature or British literature added first, both of whom have more than 2 times as many monthly pageviews (we already list English literature  3 but it is VA3). Aurangzebra (talk) 05:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Respect (song)

It is an important song, sure, but I have doubts it is at the same level as other works listed under modern musical works: (# Heartbreak Hotel, # Johnny B. Goode, # Kind of Blue, # Like a Rolling Stone, # Respect (song), # Rhapsody in Blue, # Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, # Thriller (Michael Jackson album)). Thriller became the best-selling album of all time; "Johnny B. Goode" is considered one of the most recognizable songs in the history of popular music... this is the kind of defining vital statement that I feel Respect is missing. Now, Kind of Blue and Heartbreak Hotel also strike me as somewhat arbitrary additions, missing similar claims of fame. Feel free to tell me I am wrong, suggest swaps and further fixes. I'll ping an editor I know is interested in modern music and whom I hope to get interested in the vital project: @Keneckert:. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
2. I'm not sure how cross-cultural this song got. Earlier song Johnny B. Goode has 34 interwikis, Respect's same year release Like a Rolling Stone has 39 interwikis, Respect has just 20. starship.paint (RUN) 13:42, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
3. Support per my previous nomination. --Thi (talk) 22:38, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Support, per nom. For Level 4 it has to have had a greater role in shaping society/culture, which it didn't (albeit a great song). Aszx5000 (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Support fits best at Level 5. Gizza (talk) 23:00, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
6. Support per nom. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 01:53, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. My vote isn't really going to make a difference at this point but it is literally 1st in the Rolling Stone's highly respected 500 Greatest Songs of All Time list. If it was 20th or 10th or even 5th on this list, I would support a Remove but the fact that it ended up first on an aggregated list of the best 500 songs of all time as determined by 250 notable artists, writers, and industry professionals is enough to make it VA4-worthy in my opinion. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Everyday life

V5 concept that heads its own page at Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Everyday life. Frankly, I think this should be V3 but let's start here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 06:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
3. It's a bit weird that a topic giving name to a main section starting from level 2 has its article only at level 5 (unlike all other level 2 sections). Probably, would support it for Level 3 as well (and maybe even for level 2), but would like to make sure that the article indeed covers (or attempts to cover) as many topics as the name would suggest. --Kammerer55 (talk) 07:55, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 00:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
5. Per nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 00:17, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose It is a technical term used as a headline in a wikiproject's page, but is it vital topic in encylopedia? Which printed encyclopedias include it? What you must say about it which is not covered by other articles? --Thi (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose I too am not sure how encyclopedic a topic it really is.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:24, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger It's important enough that sociology of everyday life is a field [https://www.jstor.org/stable/2083247 (that I very much need to stub at least, sigh). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:41, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

3. Don't see that this topic—as it is currently framed—is really an encyclopedic standalone topic? Aszx5000 (talk) 12:51, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
4. Feels more like a dictionary topic than an encyclopedic topic tbh. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Swap: Remove Convolvulaceae  4, add Solanaceae  5

They’re both plant families in the order Solanales, but the Solanaceae is far and away more important of the two. Among the more notable members are the Potato  3, Tomato  4, Bell pepper  4, Chili pepper  4, Eggplant  4, and Tobacco  4 (Bonus points for hosting Tobacco mosaic virus  4). The cultural/economic/historical significance of this family is hard to overstate.

The Convolvulaceae contains the Sweet potato  4, a number of ornamentals and some interesting weeds. The sweet potato is a crop of moderate importance and other morning glories have aesthetic and ethnobotanical value, but in terms of human and ecological significance this is a relatively minor family and would rank below others that haven’t made the list (e.g. Rutaceae, Amaranthaceae, Brassicaceae  5).

Support

1. As nominator --User:Marchantiophyta 2:42, 8 December 2023
2. Sweet potato is a staple food (as the #7 most-produced staple food, I would say it has high importance), but when compared to the sum of the Solanaceae members cited, it doesn't hold up. starship.paint (RUN) 03:29, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

   Good point, “moderate” is definitely underselling the sweet potato (the implications of its distribution alone would probably earn it a spot on the list). The edible plant section is full of “one-hit wonders” not represented at the family level, so it'll be in good company there. Marchantiophyta (talk) 03:20, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

3. Support. Makes sense. Presume that Convolvulaceae will be swapped to Level 5 with Solanaceae. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:47, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

   Yeah, Convolvulaceae is worth including in the project but is definitely more of a level 5 subject. Marchantiophyta (talk) 02:08, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

4. Makes sense, potatoes and tomatoes are very important. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:16, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Nominations by Dawid2009 in the name of deceased Wikipedian (SpinningPark)

Over three years ago deceased Wikipedian SpinningPark made many proposals to the levels: 3, 4, and 5: [1], although proposals were intresing, most of them did not get enough attention due to low acitivity project at the time. I am going to nominate all of his proposals, will not give rationales at every single entry but please for research of these terms, productive feedbacks and substantive discussions (no dispurtive !votes like "no rationale given etc.", "we are under quota" etc. but many comments in discussions and substantive discussions)

Most of these terms are unfamiliar to the average person, so I highly recommend that you do give rationales. The Blue Rider 19:26, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Add Wireless telegraphy

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 12:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose covered by Telegraphy at this level. Gizza (talk) 22:30, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

• Wireless telegraphy is not V5 yet. Can you check which of those are not V5 and nom them there first? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:00, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
• Ditto.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
• +1. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Add Distributed-element circuit

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 12:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose is too specific for Level 4. A well-written article on Electrical network would have a paragraph or two on distributed-element circuits. Gizza (talk) 22:32, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Oppose, per DaGizza. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Planar transmission line

Support

1. Dawid2009 (talk) 12:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose open to adding telecommunications network instead. Transmission line is currently Level 5. Gizza (talk) 22:28, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
2. Per DaGizza. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Discuss

Dawid2009 (talk) 12:36, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Add Turkic migration

Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 09:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per QuicoleJR. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• @RekishiEJ: Why is this topic vital? I need a reason to support a proposal. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:25, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Add various health science subjects

Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/4/Biology and health sciences is under quota 1482/1500. I nominated a few dozen subjects at VA5 and these all passed at Level 5 unanimously. Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Biology and health sciences/Health was woefully under quota before these changes (953/1200) and remains so. I am not sure which of these can help Level 4 to get closer to quota, but here the are

Many of these are better suited for the medical technology subsection in Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/4/Technology#Medical_technology than Biology and health sciences. Gizza (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

First aid kit

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose first aid is introduced at Level 4 and I don't think we need both added at the same level. Gizza (talk) 02:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
2. DaGizza's oppose makes sense. The Blue Rider 17:36, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Bandage

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Classic element of medicine. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Everyone knows what this is. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Easy support. The Blue Rider 17:42, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
5. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sling (medicine)

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose, I instead support adding orthopedic surgery to cover the treatment of fractures and other medical conditions/injuries relating to the musculoskeletal system. A sling is just one small part of the treatment. Gizza (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above. The Blue Rider 17:36, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Crutch

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Not just related to medicine, common prop associated with old people for millennia. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak Oppose. Prefer adding walking stick first as a more general tool used to aid people in walking. Also gets more pageviews. Gizza (talk) 02:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Tourniquet

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not well-known or important enough for VA4 in my opinion. Not nearly as important as most of the other proposals in this section. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per QuicoleJR. The Blue Rider 17:29, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Stretcher

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Would support if there is room (quota) after other stuff here passes (or not). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Syringe

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I'd support this one instead of hypodermic needle; one of those is enough for V4 I think and this one often encompasses the other, visually at least. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Another easy support. The Blue Rider 17:43, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:08, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
5. support Lorax (talk) 05:57, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hypodermic needle

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose to balance my support above - to overlapping otherwise for V4. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Agree with Piotrus. The Blue Rider 17:28, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
3. don't think we need this and syringe Lorax (talk) 05:58, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per Piotrus Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Stethoscope

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Classic propr of modern doctors. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
3. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Thi (talk) 21:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
5. Support Lorax (talk) 05:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ventilator

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per DaGizza. The Blue Rider 17:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per DaGizza below Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:24, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

This is already partially covered by pulmonology. Honestly, I would support adding missing branches of medicine like Rheumatology and Intensive care medicine before specific equipment, especially since technology is over quota. Gizza (talk) 00:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

White coat

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose I can't see white coat being any more vital than e.g. medical gloves or surgical mask. Maybe the broader Personal protective equipment is a better choice. Then again, epidemic and pandemic are both only Level 5 currently and one of them should probably be upgraded first. Gizza (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per DaGizza Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:23, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Hobby  5

Pretty basic element of Leisure  4. We list a lot of hobbies at V4. If we can have dozens of specific board games (Monopoly, Chess, Tetris, etc.) surely we have room for this concept. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 21:05, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Lorax (talk) 06:02, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:29, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Top  5

Classic toy. More interwikis (if less daily views) than Yo-yo  4 or Frisbee  4 we list here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. The entertainment of many. The Blue Rider 17:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Russian invasion of Ukraine

The major war of the last twenty years, most important conflict since Iraqi war, etc. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nom --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 21:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose for now. I think this war is very important to our modern era, but for level 4, I tend to have more concerns about recentism. I think the best indicator for its level 4 vitality would be if it has an enduring effect on global history and society, and I'm not sure we can assess that while it's still an ongoing active conflict, especially right now when it's at a stalemate. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:25, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. -WP:TOOSOON-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I think it's on par with Syrian civil war, which is also level 5 for now. The invasion itself was quite recent though the broader Russo-Ukrainian War has been going for a longer time and may be the better choice to add. Gizza (talk) 03:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

@DaGizza I think the comparison to Syrian civil war is not good, since that one had much less international involvement, as well as was much less significant both for the Russia or geopolitically. However, you make a fair point whether the RUW article might not be better - but I think in the end that the invasion proper is what pushed this from a Low-intensity conflict (not a V5 concept hmmm) into a vital-4 concept. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:40, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Martial law under Ferdinand Marcos

This is an article that should more properly be named the "Marcos dictatorship" (which is a redirect) but is not named that due to media coverage consensus issues and sensitivities. However, it is a significant period in Philippine history on par with the Philippine Revolution, or at least the Japanese Occupation of the Philippines during World War II. I am new to Vital Articles but by my estimate, that feels like a level 4, but maybe it should be at a different level? For now, I'm proposing its addition here. - Chieharumachi (talk) 01:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I should also note that there Human rights abuses of the Marcos dictatorship and Unexplained wealth of the Marcos family (a redirect from Marcos Plunder) probably also deserve VA status, although perhaps that's level 5. - Chieharumachi (talk) 01:54, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Ferdinand Marcos is level 4 so potential child articles are most likely level 5 vitality. This proposal seems more reasonable, I might support if in the right venue. The Blue Rider 02:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chieharumachi:, hi! Just making sure if you want to make this into a proposal at level 5 or not! Cheers. The Blue Rider 20:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@The Blue Rider:, Hi! Oh, yes please! Shall I just go there and add it? Or is there some sort of automated process? - Chieharumachi (talk) 10:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Erbil

Capital and largest city of the Kurdistan Region, an ethnically and culturally distinct part of Iraq. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems important enough, capital of an important region and dates back to the 5th millennium BC. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think V4 should have cities that people actually are likely to hear about on the global level. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

   Most people are ignorant so well-knownness is not a good metric. The Blue Rider 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

   I would agree. Most Americans probably couldn't name two cities in Poland, but we have six cities in Poland on the VA4 list. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

   I actually reckon most Americans wouldn't be able to name one Polish city, for what it's worth. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

   Maybe I should say "most reasonably well educated people, interested in global history and events"? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:49, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

   I think it comes up fairly frequently in those circles to be honest. Due to war, I guess, but seems an odd reason to oppose. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Iraq's size justifies listing a 4th city in addition to Baghdad, Mosul, and Basra, and Erbil stood out to me too as an omission when I checked over the list recently (certainly a notable city on a global scale). I've got a couple of qualms though. Firstly, it's not that big with a population of less than a million; Kirkuk is Iraq's 4th biggest city instead. Secondly, and more importantly, Erbil is right next door to Mosul, just 75 km between them. I'll probably support, but these are factors worth dwelling on. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Hmm I just noticed that we don't have Diyarbakır (another Kurdish-majority city) at V4, and it's a larger city than Erbil. I'll propose adding that. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:00, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan region

Per @Aszx5000 recent note in the level 3 discussion. The Rhine-Ruhr region stands as one of the pivotal centers in Europe. Germany has only one other region at level 4, despite being the most influential country in Europe and the most populous in the EU. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I’d add North Rhine-Westphalia first, since states are more vital than metro regions, and since no other metro regions are V5. I’d also promote Berlin to V3 first. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

1. Support for an alternative addition of North Rhine-Westphalia (reasonable for me). I guess it's a matter of which association is more of a priority between a more formal/historical or a more urbanistic one. I could also argue that just the Rhine-Ruhr's setup at 2/3 of the state's GDP (and at European context) has a better likeness at the XXI century to the historical importance of Rhineland, but then again it's a part of it. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I'm skeptical if there exist a spot in the current quota to add Berlin at V3. It would require more places for cities. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The Meta list has 45 cities, so I’d probably redistribute some articles and/or increase quota by ~40% for all levels to reflect the growing size of the encyclopedia. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

African capitals: swap Gaborone and Windhoek out for Bangui and Nouakchott

Gaborone  4 and Windhoek  4 are significantly smaller cities in smaller countries than Bangui  5 and Nouakchott  5. The current listing is a result of bias against CAR and Mauritania, less generally visible African countries in English media than Botswana and Namibia.

Support

1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 00:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:04, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removals. The Blue Rider 19:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Mixed

Discussion

• Not too sure, Botswana and Namibia are more economically powerful. The Blue Rider 06:05, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Operation Condor  5

I was surprised when I went through our history section to see a relative lack of topics about South America in the list, with only 4 listed in the late modern period section. I thought the most glaring omission from this was Operation Condor  5, the campaign of political repression, state terrorism and regime change that shook the entire continent for the best part of a decade. Tens of thousands of people were killed or forcibly disappeared, and hundreds of thousands more imprisoned, during this period. It was undertaken by right-wing military dictatorships in Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay, with the support (both covert and overt) of the United States. It still has ramifications today, with countless people that still don't know where their family members are, while left-wing and democratic governments are still attempting to undo the institutional holdovers of the dictatorships. Speak to almost anyone from South America today and they could probably tell you in detail how they were personally affected by Operation Condor. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:41, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:41, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per well-written argument by nominator. We could also consider adding Falklands War, the wars of indepence, Colombia–Peru War, Cenepa War, Latin American debt crisis, War of the Confederation (we don't even list Peru-Bolivian Confederation at level 5). The Blue Rider 12:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. I will reserve judgement on the suggestions made by The Blue Rider. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 22:21, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:42, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Support per above. Gizza (talk) 04:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap: Eisaku Satō  4 for Nobusuke Kishi  5

Eisaku Satō was certainly an important politician for his time, as one of the longer-serving Japanese prime ministers and the signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but I'm not sure what distinguishes him so much that he is listed alongside Meiji, Hirohito, Tojo and Abe. On the other hand, his brother Nobusuke Kishi is vital to understanding modern Japanese politics: he ruled Manchukuo, for which he was nicknamed the "Monster of the Shōwa era"; he was a high-level member of the civil-military dictatorship, even helping to bring down Tojo's government; he was considered a class-A war criminal, but never tried by the United States, as they considered him the best man to rule Japan after the war; he founded the Liberal Democratic Party, which has governed Japan as its dominant party since the 1950s; he helped establish the Asian Development Bank; he played a central role in the post-war rehabilitation of convicted war criminals; he was the focus of mass protests against his rule in 1960; he was a key influence on Korean dictator Park Chung-hee; and he helped bring the Unification Church into the government. Kishi has had an undeniably enduring effect on Japanese (and East Asian) politics up until this very day, and I think he is certainly vital enough for level 4. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Thessaloniki

Portugal  4 and Greece  4 have comparable populations, and Ancient Greece  3 and the Greek language  3 are V3, yet since the addition of Porto  4, Portugal had more V4 cities than Greece. The addition of Thessaloniki will balance the two countries out citywise. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Second biggest city in Greece, fair adittion. The Blue Rider 20:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Haven't examined this thoroughly but Thessaloniki seems a bit below Porto to me. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Thessaloniki is significantly less populous than Porto, going by both municipal and metro population. It is also significantly less visited: as a point of comparison, Thessaloniki Airport has roughly half the passenger count of Porto Airport. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:37, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Battle of Marathon

Battle of Marathon was pivotal in shaping not only ancient Greek history but also the course of Western civilization. Their victory over the Persians secured Athenian independence but also allowed for the development of democracy and the Greek cultural and intelectual movement. Moreover, it changed the course of the Greco-Persian Wars  4, with an ultimate win of the Greeks. The batlle influenced militarilly, culturally and ideologically Western civilization for centuries.

Also fun fact, the word Marathon  4 comes from this battle when Pheidippides  5 ran all the way from the Marathon, Greece to Athens to warn the Athenians that the Persians were heading towards them. The Blue Rider 20:37, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. One of the most consequential battles in world history. The Blue Rider 20:37, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Yes. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Jusdafax (talk) 03:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:35, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support good pickup. Gizza (talk) 10:51, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
6. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Tampa, Florida

Aside from the Inland Empire, which is probably only V5, the Tampa Bay Area is the last U.S. metro area of over 3 million to be unrepresented at V4. Florida itself is V4 with one city, and while Metro NYC makes up 65% of New York State’s population, and Chicagoland makes up 68% of Illinois’ population, Metro Miami only makes up 28% of Florida’s population. Speaking of Florida, Cape Coral and Sarasota could be V5 when Florida is somewhat underrepresented compared to the rest of the country. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
2. I think a second Floridian city would be beneficial to the list since it is the third most populous state. I support Tampa, neutral on Jacksonville. I know Florida has four big cities, Miami, Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville. I feel like Jacksonville isn’t that important, but I’m willing to be convinced otherwise. Interstellarity (talk) 00:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Travel to/from Sarasota–Bradenton International Airport is very difficult, with a lot of the most competitive options being on small airlines or Tampa International Airport. So I view the Sarasota as part of the Greater Tampa region. (E.g. try getting SRQ to Fort Lauderdale–Hollywood International Airport or Miami International Airport)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
4. Decided to land on this side. It's big. J947 ‡ ^edits 08:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Florida should have more than one city at V4. It can either be Tampa or Orlando. I won't let my slight preference for Orlando hold up my general support for listing a second Floridian city. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:12, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
6. I mentioned this in the Calgary thread below but I believe that every city listed as Beta-status or higher on the GaWC classification should be included at V4 or higher since this typically indicates heavy regional importance and usually cultural or historical significance. Out of the 151 such cities in the world that satisfy that criteria, there are only 3 that we do not list: George Town, Cayman Islands (financial importance probably dominates every other metric), Nicosia, Cyprus, and Tampa, Florida. Out of these three, Tampa, Florida is probably the biggest no-brainer (though I would also like to see at least Nicosia on here as well). The GaWC classification is probably the closest we'll come to an objective hierarchy of the notability of cities; it might be best if we align our list as much as possible with theirs. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:11, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Meh, besides being a fairly large city, demographic wise, not seeing what makes this city vital. The Blue Rider 21:50, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Not mostly world famous, which is what V4 should be, IMHO. Few people outside US would have heard about it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

   Most people are ignorant, so well-knownness is not a good metric, especially when we list over 400 cities at this level. Vileplume (talk) 18:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

3. czar 18:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Population isn't irrelevant, and yet the better measure of vitality is whether people who don't live there have a need or desire to know about it, perhaps because they might visit. On that measure, Orlando would clearly be more vital. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 10:09, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

I don't know, Orlando feels more significant than Tampa as a city despite its somewhat lower population. Probably due to tourism. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 12:40, 18 January 2024 (UTC) Moved to support. feminist🩸 (talk) 09:12, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

1. It's a tossup between Orlando and Tampa for me. Tampa is the larger metro, but Orlando is more well-known. Having lived in Central Florida for a few years (between the two no less), I didn't really get a sense that one was more important on a regional level than the other. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:01, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• What makes Tampa more vital than Jacksonville, Florida? The Blue Rider 20:59, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

  Nice catch, I was considering proposing J-ville first. Similar levels of importance, metropolitan areas are typically a better metric for vital cities than city proper. However, it would probably be better to list Jacksonville since it’s the eleventh largest city proper and the largest city by area in the lower 48, compared to Tampa having the 17th largest metro. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 21:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

  The Jacksonville metro area is significantly smaller than either Tampa or Orlando. The only reason why Jax has a high municipal population is because its boundaries include its suburbs. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:18, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• I'm usually unconvinced by population-centric arguments for city inclusion. Do you think there are other reasons - cultural, economic, historical, etc. - that Tampa is VT4? (Jacksonville too if you can explain) --Grnrchst (talk) 08:32, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

  It, San Jose, and Portland are the only metropolitan areas with a GDP of over 200 billion USD to not be listed at level 4. In the present day, those three economies are certainly far more vital than that of New Orleans. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 20:32, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• The Globalization and World Cities Research Network ranking worth thinking about here. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
• Unsure (so unsure I'm not sure enough to put my name down as neutral) at the moment, because while it is very big by population (and population strongly correlates with economic importance and other forms of vitality), its metro area is somewhat decentralised, its influence is modern, it doesn't feel as if it's on the same level as the other U.S. cities listed, and I'm a little loath to add another U.S. city in general. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
• Consider Tampa Bay area as an alternative, or even Tampa Bay. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 22:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Occupational therapy

We are currently under quota for Biology and health sciences, and occupational therapy feels just as important as a health care profession as Physical therapy  4 and Radiation therapy  4, both of which are at V4.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Talaat Pasha  5

This politician no doubt should be added, since he was the de facto supreme leader of the Ottoman Empire after 1914 (another man of the Three Pashas, Enver Pasha, is currently listed), and the main perpetrator of the Armenian Genocide (which is currently listed), besides, he is considered the de-facto builder of Modern Turkey by Hans-Lukas Kieser.

Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 03:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Also worth noting that the trial of his assassin directly inspired Rafael Lemkin's development of his ideas on prosecuting genocide. Talaat's biography is absolutely vital at this level. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add various health science subjects (part 2)

Above a group of medical subjects was nominated as a batch because they had unanimously passed at Level 5 and it seems some of them are on their way to passing here. So here is another batch of unanimous level 5 passes. Since these took longer to achieve unanimous level 5 pass that may or may not indicate they are less vital. However, let's discuss the following.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Search and rescue

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• If the nominator presents a rationale for the inclusion I might support it. The Blue Rider 17:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Dressing (medicine)

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. If I'm not mistaken a compress is a type of bandage, if so, oppose on the basis that it is too specific. The Blue Rider 17:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Personal protective equipment

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support a broad category with wide relevance Lorax (talk) 06:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Adhesive bandage

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Widely used but redudant to the broader article Bandage  4. The Blue Rider 17:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Boot (medicine)

• This is the stubbiest vital article I have seen, but hopefully its new VA-status will draw attention of knowledgeable editors.

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. In no universe this is level 4 vitality. The Blue Rider 17:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Retainer (orthodontics)

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. A lot of these are commonly used, but to be sincere, equipments are normally too specific to level 4 vitality. Search and rescue, pulmonology, first aid are all better candidates. The Blue Rider 17:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose agree with the Blue Rider. Gizza (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

First responder

Support

1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Confederate States of America  4 for Canadian Confederation  5

Having both Confederate States of America and American Civil War at this level seems redundant to me. Our listings for North America under the late modern period are also heavily U.S.-biased. (I say this as someone studying for a PhD in U.S. history). Currently, there are only two articles (Mexican Revolution and Mexican War of Independence) which are solely non-U.S. I think it would be good if we had at least one Canadian event listed (War of 1812 notwithstanding). Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 23:12, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removal --Thi (talk) 10:04, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support removal. V5 is sufficient. czar 18:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. The CSA only existed for 4 years. Weak support for the Canadian Confederation. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:26, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support removal. Neutral on Canadian Confederation as it seems to be on a similar level of vitality as the Federation of Australia, which not only shaped the modern nation of Australia but also New Zealand who decided not to join. Gizza (talk) 22:57, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

   Canada has a higher population than the latter two combined. Vileplume (talk) 00:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   The English speaking population of Canada is about the same as Australia and New Zealand combined. If the number of English speakers is not a consideration, then there are countries with larger populations which have zero direct coverage in modern history, like Thailand and Tanzania. Adding Canadian Confederation along with War of 1812 which is already added, would give Canada similar depth of coverage to much more highly populated Brazil which has Empire of Brazil  4 and Paraguayan War  4, and more coverage than e.g. highly populated Egypt which only has Arab-Israeli conflict as an article partially dealing with the country's modern history. Australia also doesn't have an equivalent to the War of 1812 listed currently in the Late Modern Period. Apart from generic articles which impact every country, the only article somewhat related to Australia is Pacific War, but Canada has an equivalent in Battle of the Atlantic. Gizza (talk) 01:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

6. Support removal. Per Gizza. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 23:52, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support removal. Per Gizza.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose addition. Don't know much about Canadian history but the confederation doesn't seem that vital. Nevertheless if the nominator would provide a rationale for the inclusion instead of just an appeal for better representation of North America, I might support it. The Blue Rider 18:53, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

   Confederation is the Canadian equivalent of American Revolution or Mexican War of Independence. It was the process by which Canada became an independent country. I think it would be the most logical Canadian entry. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 19:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Diyarbakır

Diyarbakır is the largest Kurdish-majority city in Turkey and a focal point for ethnic conflict.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:17, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
2. This or add Konya; see #Remove Eskişehir. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

There are larger Kurdish-plurality cities, such as Kirkuk. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I think Diyarbakır's larger than Kirkuk. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Liu Xiaobo  5

Liu Xiaobo was an outspoken critic of the Chinese government. He wrote about Chinese society and culture with a focus on democracy and human rights; he played a major role in writing Charter 08  5. A Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Liu Xiaobo's dedication to democracy and freedom of expression, exemplifies his impact on global conversations about fundamental freedoms. He was jailed multiple times by Chinese authorities, namely after the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre for his role in support students who had taken part of the protests. The Blue Rider 18:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. A lot of China modern history events are missing as well, will do a batch proposal at VT5 when I have the time. The Blue Rider 18:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

   Charter 77 the Czechoslovakian repercussor of Charter 08 is also missing. The Blue Rider 18:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

2. Yes. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 09:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. He was a cause celebre, sure, but his actual impact on Chinese affairs in practice seems too limited to put him in the same tier as Maximilien Robespierre or Aung San. He was certainly world famous for a time, but I'm skeptical he will be historically considered as important in the long term as other VA4 figures like those I just mentioned. Totalibe (talk) 16:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per above. --Thi (talk) 18:11, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Kirkuk

Next Iraqi city I would add, and largest Kurdish-plurality city in the country. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 23:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Box  5

Seems like a V4 topic. Suggested by User:QuicoleJR at Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5/STEM#Add_Cardboard_box (which is currently at 2:0 and can use more input :D). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Boxes are a basic, ubiquitous concept. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. The history of the box in particular is not very nuanced; its modern-day usage is not something an encyclopaedia would be particularly in need of covering; and the broader Container  4 is already listed. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:16, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose A level 5 topic. --Thi (talk) 11:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per J947. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Swap: Remove Guangxi  4, add Zhejiang  5

Zhejiang has a higher population and much larger economy than Guangxi.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom (for those interested, I think we list one city in each of these Chinese provinces). J947 ‡ ^edits 03:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

   We don't list Haikou  5, Hohhot  5, Xining  5 and Yinchuan  5, not that I necessarily think we should. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

3. makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 06:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

Discuss

Add the remaining actinides

The articles in question are:

• Einsteinium  5
• Fermium  5
• Mendelevium  5
• Nobelium  5
• Lawrencium  5

It doesn’t make sense to me why the highest element we list is californium. I think this discussion is a good indicator of the vitality of elements with super high atomic numbers. I would be open to removing some elements starting from americium since the first ninety four elements are naturally occurring. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Personally I'd rather remove some, if any change should be made. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Marchantiophyta. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Synthetic element  4 is listed; note past discussions here and here. J947 ‡ ^edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Californium is the heaviest element with real-world applications so it's a reasonable place to stop. A case could maybe be made for Einsteinium as the heaviest element produced in visible quantities, but the remaining actinides are just too immaterial (figuratively and literally) to be "important". --Marchantiophyta (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Swap: Remove Melastomataceae  4, add Brassicaceae  5

The Brassicaceae are a POWERHOUSE of a family, containing Arabidopsis thaliana  4, Bok choy  5, Bomdong  5, Broccoli  4, Brussels sprout  5, Cabbage  4, Cauliflower  4, Chinese cabbage  4, Choy sum  5, Collard (plant)  4, Daikon  4, Eruca vesicaria  4, Gai lan  5, Garden cress  5, Horseradish  4, Kale  4, Kohlrabi  4, Mustard plant  5, Radish  4, Rapeseed  4, Rapini  5, Rutabaga  4, Savoy cabbage  5, Turnip  4, Wasabi  5, and Watercress  5 (and hosting Pieris brassicae  4). Members of the family are found almost everywhere on earth and fill a wide variety of niches.

The Melastomataceae are one of the larger plant families, notable for being… not all that notable? They're common in the tropics, diverse in form, contain a number of ornamental plants, and see some use in traditional medicine – but these are all true of many other plant families not at level 4. The lack of culturally/economically/culinarily significant members is surprising given the size of the group, and size alone is not a good measure of vitality (arguments for including the nth largest family are generally applicable to the n+1th largest, and the n+2th largest, and so on).

Support

1. As nominator --Marchantiophyta (talk) 01:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Just to clarify, my proposal is to demote Melastomataceae to level 5 and promote Brassicaceae to level 4. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 02:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove History of Iraq  4

Iraq  4 is only VA4, and History of the Middle East  3 covers it decently well, plus there are a lot of other Middle East countries with their histories at VA4. I think that the history of a VA4 country should be at VA5.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:55, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per below. Vileplume (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. It's a special case due to the importance in history of Mesopotamia, which is today Iraq. (sdsds - talk) 23:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

   Then swap this for History of Mesopotamia. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

   Which is not even V5. Vileplume (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Almanac  5 and Gazetteer  5

These are important tools of reference especially since one is updated every year and the other is a directory. Interstellarity (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:11, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I have voted to remove G at WP:VA5.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose both. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:08, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
3. feminist🚰 (talk) 01:54, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Don't feel strongly about A.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

1. User:Interstellarity Gazetteer is up for removal at VT5, here: Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/Society#Arts. The Blue Rider 04:00, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

   Oh, I didn’t notice that. Thanks for telling me. Interstellarity (talk) 15:55, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Public domain

Important key concept alongside Copyright. Interstellarity (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Agreed. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:44, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, as the concept provides fundamental support to the topic of Intellectual property. (sdsds - talk) 23:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:41, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Subordinate concept; V5 is sufficient. czar 18:30, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 19:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Czar. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Move Aung San Suu Kyi  4 to politicians and leaders

While she was once most notable as an incarcerated opposition leader (which she has become again funnily enough), I'd argue she is now more well-known as the first non-military head of government of Myanmar in decades (not to mention her position as a human rights darling being overshadowed by her actions in power). her father, Aung San  4, never got to lead Burma as an independent country before he was assassinated so I think he still listed there but, Suu Kyi, no.

Support

1. Iostn (talk) 22:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Agreed feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Her fame and vitality come from her past human rights track record and her Nobel Peace Prize. She didn't particularly do anything VA4-worthy in politics, especially considering how she only ended up being mildly better than her predecessors when it came to defending human and civil rights, and the fact that her political tenure was quickly squashed in the 2021 coup. As an example, If it came out tomorrow that Mother Teresa  4 had been running a drug smuggling ring since she was 20, we wouldn't move her to Criminals even though that would be what people would associate her with going forward. Her VA4-worthiness came from her charity work and activism. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

   The categorization has actually been an issue already on V5 where several African (mostly anti-colonial) leaders were listed under revolutionaries and activists, and there was recently a vote in favour of moving them from there to politicians, so this is consistent with that. Even ignoring her term as State Councillor, she can still be considered a politician as leader of the NLD. Iostn (talk) 20:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Swap Tallinn  4 with Chișinău  5

Larger city in a significantly more populous country. Vileplume (talk) 23:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:54, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Tallinn is an older city with more historical importance. The Blue Rider 01:24, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose removal. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose removal --Thi (talk) 07:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Marvel Cinematic Universe

Based on some of the comments here, I feel like the MCU as a whole should move up to a level 4 vital article. It is the biggest film franchise at the box office and has played a large role in pop culture and society since it began in 2008. This would also open up for the possibility for a film from within it to potentially have a chance to be a level 5 article in the future.

Support

1. I support as nominator. -- ZooBlazer 05:35, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely. A paradigm shift in the commercialization of film IP and was the pioneer in the now ubiquitous idea of cinematic shared universes. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:54, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Trailblazer101 (talk) 06:29, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
4. The effect and reach of the MCU is greater than a single film as it spans film, television, web and live entertainment similar to Star Wars, which is level 4 and has three films and a music article at level 5. --Gonnym (talk) 09:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support. More important than a bunch of stuff we list that are not aging well. We need a balance between "high culture" and "popculture". --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
6. This is a big thing in pop culture, and it pioneered the concept of shared universes for works of fiction. It should definitely be VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Already covered by The Walt Disney Company  4, also too recentist. The Blue Rider 12:17, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Covered by other articles. Too recent pop culture phenomenon. --Thi (talk) 12:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose: Fictional universe should be sufficient at level 4. (sdsds - talk) 23:06, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per above-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:43, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose as trivial. Toga films or Soviet realism are probably more important to the history of cinema than Marvel stuff. Place Clichy (talk) 12:50, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. per above Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Brandy, Gin, Liqueur, Rum, Sake, Tequila, Vodka and Whisky

The Everyday life quota is 473/450. The main article Liquor should provide an overview of the history of distilled spirits.

Support

1. Support as nom. --Thi (talk) 12:07, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Other more general topics like energy drink (currently level 5) should have priority over specific types of liquor. (sdsds - talk) 22:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. Happy with removing all of these or keeping one or two of the most important ones (in my opinion, vodka and whisky) and removing the rest. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Liquer.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support 23 items over quota is just plain egregious, especially when liquor is already there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marchantiophyta (talk • contribs) 00:13, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support liqueur and sake only. Gizza (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Support With Distillation  4 also being vital all of them are not needed. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:31, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I don't think this is what needs to be cut to bring everyday life to quota pbp 13:45, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong oppose everything except Brandy and Sake. Very well-known and widely drank alcoholic drinks, some of them such as vodka and tequila are even part of the identity of countries (Russia and Mexico) and serves as a way to exercise power internationally. Rum is historically important as it's popular associated with pirates and was a highly traded good. The Blue Rider 20:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose everything except Brandy and Liquer.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:46, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Oppose I may be more open if these were discussed separately.  Carlwev  09:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose. Probably other items should be removed from this section before whisky is. Separate discussions may be opened though. Place Clichy (talk) 12:53, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Oppose all except liqueur and sake. I also disagree with a quota of only 450 for everyday life. I remember philosophy and religion's quota being reduced without discussion and then people proposal removals using the rationale "over quota". I haven't watched the list closely in recent times but wouldn't be surprised if something similar has happened with everyday life. 23:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Further support for removal comes from Distillation  4 also being level 4, in addition to Liquor  4. These two sufficiently cover the topic for level 4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Add History of Argentina  5

Argentina  3 is VA3, and it has been quite important to the History of South America  3. Arguably more important than History of Peru  4 since Peru  4 is only VA4, but the Inca Empire  3 lets that article make it through, although an argument could be made for a swap with History of the Incas  5, which is not even listed at VA5.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Acapulco  4

Acapulco is mainly known as one of Mexico's oldest beach resorts. However, due to rampant crime, its status as an international beach resort has been completely taken over by Cancún  5. Since we decided two months ago that Cancún does not deserve VA4 status, Acapulco shouldn't remain on this list either.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 07:39, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:01, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 10:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
5. The size of the metro area alone (853k) is not sufficient for V4. Cancún has already overtaken it. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 11:31, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add United States Virgin Islands  5

They are the only inhabited territory of the US we do not list at this level. Open to adding Virgin Islands  5 if the community thinks it is a better choice. Interstellarity (talk) 15:05, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 15:05, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not significant enough historically, demographically, technologically or any other measure. Should stay at VT5, along side with British Virgin Islands  5. The Blue Rider 00:32, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per TBR. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 03:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Shopping  5

A daily activity for people in capitalist societies (read: most of the world).

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🚰 (talk) 16:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
2. The inverse concept Sales  4 is already level 4. Even if there were an article covering both sides of purchase transactions, that wouldn't address the browsing that separates shopping from purchasing. (Browsing is currently rated Start-class.) (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Brassica oleracea  5

This single species has given rise to Kale  4, Cabbage  4, Broccoli  4, Kohlrabi  4, Collard (plant)  4, Gai lan  5, Savoy cabbage  5, and Brussels sprout  5 as long as less vital varieties which makes me think this should be VA4.

Support

1. as nom 115.188.119.62 (talk) 19:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. move Brassicaceae  5 instead, to include mustard, etc. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

I have a related proposal to promote Brassicaceae to V4 by replacing a more obscure family. While B. oleracea is arguably the most important member, there are plenty of other important & vital species (Notably Horseradish  4, Arabidopsis thaliana  4, Radish  4, Rapeseed  4, Rutabaga  4, Eruca vesicaria  4, and Turnip  4) in the family, so I think it's a stronger candidate. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Ethiopian Empire  5

A sovereign state whose existence stretched from the Crusades to the Cold War. Its kingdom was based on a blend of indigenous traditions, an ancient form of Christianity, and governance by the Solomonic Dynasty, which through the centuries included leaders such as Amda Seyon I  4, Zara Yaqob  4, Tewodros II  4, Yohannes IV  4, Menelik II  4 and Haile Selassie  4. A cornerstone for African history. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 13:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Alberta  4

We always try to counter U.S. bias, but rarely Canadian bias. We have one V4 American city for every 12.6m inhabitants, yet one Canadian city for every 7.8m inhabitants. At V5, it’s one US city for every 2.37m inhabitants and one Canadian city for every 1.86m inhabitants. We’ve been removing many contemporary U.S. politicians since late 2023, and now it’s horrendously underrepresented in that area compared to other Anglophone countries. In country subdivisions, we list 8 U.S. states, 4 regions (and I’d consider swapping New England for the Northeast), and Silicon Valley. Then we have four Canadian provinces, and this one is the safest choice for removal. Alberta is far less vital than Ohio  5, Kantō region  5, São Paulo (state)  5, etc imho. How is Krasnodar Krai not even V5? Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Swap with Ohio  5 or remove. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

   Reasonable swap if we’re only listing one of Ohio’s three major cities - all comparable in population. I’m pretty sure Cincinnati was formerly V4, and a swap between Cleveland and Columbus was proposed relatively recently, but had no support other than nom. Vileplume (talk) 02:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. How about a swap with Canadian Prairies? The prairies cover a larger geographic area than all but approximately a dozen countries on earth. They're located in a relatively populous anglophone country and are of vital economic importance due to their abundant natural/agricultural resources. Additionally, they (and Alberta in particular) hold far more electoral sway than Ohio does. IRN-Dumas (talk) 17:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   The swap was proposed recently, and the Prairies have a combined population of only 7.4 million, comparable to only Arizona, the fourteenth most populous state. Not more important than many U.S. regions we don't list. Economically, the region's GDP of $537 billion is comparable to 15th placer Tennessee. Ohio, on the other hand, has a population of 11.8 million and a GDP of $881 billion. Vileplume (talk) 18:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

@J947: Would you still support a swap with Edmonton today? I would strongly oppose; it’s only comparable to Oklahoma City and Louisville. Vileplume (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove Calgary  4 and Ottawa  4

Canada is horrendously overrepresented, and these two cities are significantly smaller than many American cities we don't list. Four cities should probably be enough. Vileplume (talk) 00:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 00:56, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support removal of Calgary only; oppose removal of Ottawa. Suggest relisting them separately. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:44, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose both. Edmonton  5 is almost as big as Calgary, and these two cities combined would be comparable to Denver  4 or Baltimore  4. I feel that Alberta is significant enough for one of its cities to be included here. As for Ottawa, I would rather remove Belfast  4 first. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:08, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

   Eh, Belfast’s history used to be V5, and so did Dublin’s, but otherwise, I agree that the island of Ireland is overrepresented. Vileplume (talk) 02:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Strong oppose both. For the Calgary case: I believe that every city listed as Beta-status or higher on the GaWC classification should be included at V4 or higher. And this has been the case so far with the exception of George Town, Cayman Islands (probably included on that list for its outsized financial impact), Nicosia, Cyprus, and Tampa, Florida. Maybe we should also discuss adding these cities but Calgary at least takes the tiebreaker for having more than 4x the population of these cities. For Ottawa: we should be including capitals of V3 countries, especially when they have a million+ people. The comparisons you included below are a bit unfair since, as feminist mentioned, Naypyidaw was very recently chosen to be the capital and construction on the city only finished in 2012. A better comparison would be Yangon  4, the former capital, which is VA4. If Canada suddenly decided to move their capital to a newly constructed city tomorrow, I don't think anyone would vote to put it in VA4. As for Canberra, it is also a fairly new city with only about a century of history behind it. Ottawa is also classified as a Gamma city in terms of global importance whereas Canberra is a full tier behind. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:03, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Strong oppose the removal of Ottawa, the capital city of the third-largest anglophone country, from a list catered to english-language wikipedia. Less strongly oppose the removal of Calgary, Canada's third-largest city. Its inclusion is not disproportionate compared with, say, the UK (twice as many cities with 60% larger population), the Netherlands (60% as many cities with 40% the population), Ukraine (20% more cities with 25% fewer people). Additionally, this is a list of vitality to the english-language wikipedia project, not of earthly vitality, and I'm fairly confident that Calgary is at least as vital as, say, the thirtieth largest Indian city to the average anglophone wikipedia user even if India has a higher population. IRN-Dumas (talk) 17:36, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   City proper population is not a preferable measure for the vitality of North American cities. By metro area, Calgary is only the fifth largest city. Vileplume (talk) 18:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Oppose --Thi (talk) 19:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• Hmm. These two cities have around 1.5M metro population. The largest US metros we don't list are Tampa, Florida  5 (3.3M); Orlando, Florida  5 (2.8M); Portland, Oregon  5 (2.5M); and Sacramento, California  5 (2.4M). Yeah, both Canadian cities really are quite a bit smaller, so maybe the US is underrepresented? I think Florida deserves more than just Miami (but perhaps not both Tampa and Orlando), and I would support the addition of Portland, but I don't think Sacramento belongs here. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:08, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  The U.S. makes up around 6.5% of the global urban population, so I think it’s somewhat adequately represented. But this is the English Wikipedia, and it does make up a quarter of the global GDP, so we could always add more, but I’d add more Chinese cities over American, as it only has slightly more representation while having 16-20% of the global population, urban population, and GDP. Vileplume (talk) 02:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Chinese cities tend to be much bigger than cities in other countries on average (this heavily depends on how you define "city" though). In general, in most countries including China, agglomeration effects mean that larger cities/metro areas tend to punch way above their weight than proportional to smaller cities. A district in one of the four "tier 1" cities of China (see Chinese city tier system) is probably more significant than a run-off-the-mill picked at random Tier 2/3 "city", due to agglomeration effects. Also remember that most places in China tend to be administered as part of a larger "city", when in contrast something like New Rochelle, New York, Evanston, Illinois, Manhattan Beach, California, etc. would be regarded as a separate "city" for administration purposes in the US. Hence "cities" are often larger than the metropolitan areas of their urban core in China, whereas the opposite is true in the US. feminist🩸 (talk) 03:38, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  Also, in general, I think larger countries should have fewer cities per capita on this list. That is because it is easier for their citizens to move (freedom of movement) and cluster into larger (hence more economically productive) cities. So, a 1.5M (metro) population city in Canada is more significant to Canada than a 1.5M population city in the US is to the US. Now, the exact implementation differs from country to country (e.g. Paris is much more dominant in France than any German city is to Germany) but I'd say this principle holds true in general. feminist🩸 (talk) 03:43, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  As to this point it's really just how VA (and VA4 in particular) goes. We list relatively obscure figures, like 6 photographers, 4 urban planners, and 2 cellists while much more famous (and, ignoring balance reasons, inarguably more vital) writers, politicians, and scientists are excluded. There are 2 speed skaters on the list, leagues below association footballers we don't list. The same principle applies to the geography section, if on a less drastic scale. I wrote this not for any ideological reason but simply because think it's worth acknowledging that this is how stuff works. IMO, it's not so much what you say (but that's certainly part of the rationale behind this status quo). J947 ‡ ^edits 09:03, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

• I know this is the capital of a V3 country, but we don’t list Naypyidaw or Canberra. Vileplume (talk) 02:14, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

  They're not really comparable in significance? Naypyidaw is very recent for a capital (established in 2005) and smaller than Ottawa; and Canberra is significantly smaller than Ottawa. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:23, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Swap IOS  4 for IPhone  5

iPhones are a revolutionary device that changed human lives. I find it weird that we list the operating system they run on is above the hardware that it runs on. Interstellarity (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 20:21, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:34, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Seems obvious. I'm using an iPhone to write this support. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. We should list more specific computer hardware. Vileplume (talk) 13:48, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Swap Mac operating systems for Mac (computer)

Proposing for similar reasons in my proposal for iPhone and iOS above. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom, noting also Operating system  4 covers the broad concept of MacOS. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 20:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Vital articles rules for other levels besides level 5

We had a lot of discussion on the level 5 talk pages regarding changes to the rules of proposals, but very little discussion on the other levels. I would like to point out some things I have found compared to other levels. Levels 1-4 state that discussions run for 15 days before being closed while level 5 says 14 days. I think we should enjoy consistency with all the levels. Should there be a minimum number of participants before closing? Maybe add a minimum discussion open time after last comment. Comment here. Interstellarity (talk) 00:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Imo there's no need to implement changes for the sake of consistency. Level 5 discussions run for a shorter period of time because there are many more articles to deal with at that level and thus a shorter discussion time would accelerate the process. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Add True crime  5

There was again some support for this to be included in V4 as well, after a successful vote at V5. True crime is currently experiencing a boom in popularity, but as a genre of journalism / non-fiction literature, it has fascinated people in the West for some while in the form of magazines, books, tv shows and recently podcasts.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Would only support Helter Skelter at V5 if this proposal passes. Vileplume (talk) 13:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Often questionable form of entertainment. --Thi (talk) 10:29, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   @Thi: What do you mean? Just because something is morally questionable does not mean it isn't vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

   It is fine in level 5. --Thi (talk) 20:29, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Not a genra big enough to be at V4. Many others I'd add before. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Landline

The opposite of Mobile phone. Has historical significance though not as common as it used to be. Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Telephone  3 and Mobile phone  3 are both VA3, and this used to be very important as the main type of phone before mobile phones, so it makes sense at VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I would prefer to see History of the telephone  5 elevated to Level/4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add McGill University

Currently there are only two non-US institutions represented from the Americas, one of which is the University of Toronto. It feels fairly intuitive that Toronto and McGill would share the same vitality level, they've generally been the two Canadian universities with the greatest international profiles academically and culturally/historically. How you define any of these things is fairly nebulous but I struggle to think of one that would place Toronto at Level 4 and McGill at Level 5. They are both, for example, the only non-US universities in the Association of American Universities and McGill is the sole Canadian member of the Global University Leaders Forum whose chair is, apparently, McGill's principal. Culturally, McGill also held unique significance in the development of university athletics (the article elaborates on its various "firsts") and relatedly its ties to the Ivy League. IRN-Dumas (talk) 04:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Nom

Oppose

1. We should remove universities from the US instead of adding McGill. If any continent is underrepresented with universities, it's Asia. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:47, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per feminist. We should add non-Western universities. starship.paint (RUN) 01:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose Not much known outside its area. --Thi (talk) 19:44, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Dodoma  5

Capital and third largest city of a very large country (Tanzania  3). Vileplume (talk) 13:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 13:45, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 14:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It's just another fairly new capital moved from the country's economic center. Canberra  5, another fairly recent capital, is much more important on a global scale than Dodoma, and we rightly don't list it at this level. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   Tanzania most certainly should have a second city, so if not Dodoma, then should it be Mwanza or Arusha? Vileplume (talk) 12:46, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   Tanzania most certainly should have a second city I disagree. Per Demographics of Tanzania, Approximately 70 percent of the population is rural, which means not that many people live in cities in Tanzania relative to the country's overall population. Dar es Salaam  4 is the primate city of Tanzania and its other cities are just not very large or significant. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

2. per feminist. I think the proportionality argument only holds up in Level 5 where we have more than enough space to list the 'obvious' cities but in Level 4, where space is more scarce, we should only be listing cities with a significant amount of importance. Dodoma does not meet that criteria. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:44, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per feminist and Aurangzebra. starship.paint (RUN) 01:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Places that nobody has heard about might occasionally be at V5, but not V4. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

I think Arusha  5 has a stronger case of being Tanzania's second city. It is a tourist hub, being a base for going to the Serengeti National Park and Mount Kilimanjaro, is the capital of the East African Community and is where the African Court on Human and Peoples' Rights sits. Looking at Level 5, Pemba Island, the country's second largest island after Zanzibar  4 and with a population of 400,000, should probably be listed. Gizza (talk) 06:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

When the EAF forms, I’ll strong support Arusha, but for now, I’m neutral. Vileplume (talk) 14:57, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Move Google, YouTube, Facebook, and Wikipedia to Technology

Seems to be the right place for them. They are there at level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Credit  5 and Cash  5

Another “doh!” facepalm, folks. How many more times will we have cases like this? Vileplume (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support credit. The Blue Rider 14:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support cash, given debit is enough probably for credit (might consider a swap however?). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:42, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose credit as redundant to Debt  4, Credit card  4 and Loan  4 at this level (all introduced at VA4). Also overlaps with Mortgage  4. May support a swap with credit card. Gizza (talk) 03:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

   Credit is the counterpart of debt, makes no sense to list one and not the other. The Blue Rider 14:28, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 11:47, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
3. As the editor who nominated these two at V5, there is a reason why I did not nominate them here. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:30, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   And what's the reason? Credit is how most small to medium companies and families get capital from. The Blue Rider 23:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

   @The Blue Rider And cash is a basic everyday concept for centuries. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:44, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   Cash as a concept represents money in the physical form, as distinct from an intangible form. Coin  4 and Banknote  4 (paper money) existed before the concept of "cash" is devised, because cash only became a distinct concept when non-physical money began. Therefore, the concept of physical money should be less important than the two primary forms of physical money.

   Credit is a subtopic of debt; creditors only care about the creditworthiness of a person if they want to create debt. The capital that small businesses and families get is debt; they care about the amount, interest rate and payment terms of the debt, and this is affected by their credit, but also by the business decisions of the creditor. feminist🩸 (talk) 16:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   Credit is the opposite of debt so one can't be a subtopic of the other, if anything debt is a subtopic of credit since the former can only occur when the latter happens. Eitherway, even though banks care about the debt, businesses and families care about the credit. Both equally important, it would be non-sense if credit doesn't pass. The Blue Rider 17:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   One can absolutely have debt without credit. If someone causes you loss, they are indebted to you to the extent of their liability, without you providing any credit to that person. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:41, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

I was neutral on cash but with Currency  4, Banknote  4 and Coin  4 (the two main modern forms of cash) all listed already, it weakens the case to also include cash. Gizza (talk) 05:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Katowice  5

Primary city of one of the largest agglomerations in the European Union. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Disclaimer: it is my hometown and I'd like to support :) But I am also not convinced this is a V4 city, and I think vital lists have too many geographical locations... sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Scam  5 to Crime

Scams involve over a trillion dollars each year, and are here to stay.

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose don't think it stands out compared to other types of fraud at this level. Gizza (talk) 23:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact  5

84 iwikis. A piviotal event in the history of Eastern Europe and one of the causes of WWII. Suggested as possiibly V4 by Kammerer55 recently in a V5 discussion. I concur. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. In the past junior high school world history textbooks in Taiwan mentioned this pact.--RekishiEJ (talk) 02:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bocce  4

A regionally popular sport related to bowling that's, frankly, not all that popular. We have 4 bowling-related articles at his level, comprising almost 1% of the Everyday Life section. 11 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. I'm not even convinced that this should be V5. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:36, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 12:36, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Definitely at least VA5 worthy but not VA4. Aurangzebra (talk) 01:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Possibly VA5 level but not VA4 Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 22:39, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
7. 690 dailies. Should be V5, but not V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:32, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
8. This obscure sport belongs at VA5. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:30, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
9. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Cross-country skiing  4

We have 5 skiing articles at his level, and this does not seem specific enough. Only a modest fraction of the world's population has access to snow-covered landscapes. 6 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Over 1% of the Everyday Life quota? No, this kind of stuff is not vital at V4. Vileplume (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Minas Gerais  4 with São Paulo (state)  5

SP was unfairly removed for being “redundant” to the city, which is V3 (São Paulo  3). SP has a higher population than any U.S. state by over 3 million, and if anything, MG is more redundant to Belo Horizonte  4. Vileplume (talk) 22:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 22:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🩸 (talk) 10:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support adittion. The Blue Rider 11:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal. No need to remove an important state demographic/economic-wise, there's room for both. The Blue Rider 11:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Remove History of England  4 and History of Scotland  4

We should not list the history of country subdivisions at V4. History of the United Kingdom  4 is enough. Vileplume (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Both England and Scotland are countries in the same way as the Netherlands  3 is a country, and both had been sovereign states for a very long time. The English Wikipedia attracts an English-speaking readership who would tend to be more interested in English-speaking places than non-English-speaking places, all else being equal. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:47, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. It's not the current nation-state status of these entities, it's their histories. Admittedly the histories of England and Scotland are intertwined, but the vital aspect of each warrants Level/4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk)

   Further to this, History of England  4 at least is on a par with Macedonia (ancient kingdom)  4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 07:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

3. Oppose --Thi (talk) 09:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add History of Bangladesh  5 and History of the Democratic Republic of the Congo  5

Histories of two high population non-Western countries that would help reduce sysbias. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support Bangladesh. See my rationale in the Oppose section. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 10:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose DRC. Both countries are relatively recent social constructs (DRC 1960; Bangladesh 1971). While Bangladesh is perhaps a middle power with significant exports of clothing, the DRC has little influence internationally. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. Any suggestions for compensating removals? (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Looking back at this, something like History of Morocco  4 is more vital than that of the DRC. Not sure if Morocco makes V3, though. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Swap Diplomatics  4 with History of spaceflight  5

Diplomatics  4 (in Auxiliary historical sciences) is somewhat obscure. History of spaceflight  5 (in History of transport) is of considerable interest in the 20th and 21st century. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 09:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Diplomatics is vital in historiography, yet history of spaceflight is a mere sub-article.--RekishiEJ (talk) 05:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Add History of South Korea  5

The largest country by GDP (#13 in the world) for which we do not list its history at V4. For reference, the next largest which we don't list is Switzerland (#20), which has a low population.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. South Korea  3 being level 3 (for good reasons), the strong links between South Korea and the English Wikipedia readership and the strong effects aspects of the history of South Korea have had on geo-politics all provide motivation for this. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 07:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per vileplume, South Korea is a recent state; the Korean Peninsula has been unified for most of its history. The Blue Rider 17:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Is this redundant to History of Korea  4? Vileplume (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  It's no more redundant to History of Korea than History of the People's Republic of China  4 is redundant to History of China  4 or History of India (1947–present)  4 is to History of India  3. The Republic of Korea was founded in 1948, which is between the founding of India (1947) and China (1949). feminist🩸 (talk) 02:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  I see History of India as more of an article for the history of the Indian subcontinent. The article also has little information about the region post-independence. Vileplume (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Add University of the Chinese Academy of Sciences

Although it is not yet at Level/5, addition of this should be obvious. See: https://www.nature.com/nature-index/annual-tables/2023/institution/academic/all/global (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:17, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Definitely not the first university I would add. Too recent (only established in 2012). Either of University of Hong Kong  5, Fudan University  5, Seoul National University  5, or National University of Singapore  5 would be more established and a better addition among universities in Asia. feminist🩸 (talk) 10:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

   For that matter, I think Chinese Academy of Sciences would be a better addition to V5 than the university. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

2. Per feminist. Vileplume (talk) 16:34, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. --Thi (talk) 19:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap: add Tower Bridge  5, remove London Bridge  4

One is a recognisable London landmark, the other is a run-off-the-mill box girder bridge.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 07:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Yes, the name 'London Bridge' might be more recognized in the English speaking world, but 'Tower Bridge' is more vital. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 22:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
5. A globally known London landmark. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:28, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
7. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 09:23, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
8. It looks like London Bridge is falling down to level 5.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Stretching  5 to Health and fitness

Form of physical exercise done by humans and other animals.

Support

1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Human Geography and Physical Geography

Currently these two pages are in Level 5. Both are high level methods for subdividing the discipline, and many of their subfields are significantly higher levels. Discussed on Level 3 and was suggested to bring it here. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 16:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support physical geography. Human geography is somewhat recent and not widely studied per my view; I won't necessarily oppose though. The Blue Rider 17:47, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Vileplume (talk) 22:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support human geography per nom; neutral on physical geography. The latter is much more represented on the list than the former IMO. Not only with all the landforms we list, but also Geomorphology  4, Hydrology  4, Climatology  4, Oceanography  4: its listing looks fairly redundant with Earth science  3 and its subtopics. (Not sufficiently cognizant of this part of the list to oppose though.) Human geography, however, definitely is a major academic disclipline in its own right. J947 ‡ ^edits 02:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 02:43, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
6. --RekishiEJ (talk) 05:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Comment: @User:The Blue Rider, just to clarify human geography is an umbrella term that looks at the spatial distribution of all human activities on the planet. This includes urban geography, health geography, economic geography, population geography, political geography, historical geography, military geography, etc. It is widely used in the United States to subdivide the discipline. A quick Google scholar search shows many hits, and one book from 1926 titled Principles of Human Geography does discuss it as a "new" term, however the concepts in the book go back millennia. I can provide citations if requested, but generally, the three branch model of human, physical, and technical (often with another name like "spatial") is the most common. Just wanted to clarify. I'm grateful for the challenge, as this question of human geography's legitimacy sent me down a research rabbit hole. As a geographer, human geography tends to be one of the rocks we never question and has been the dominant paradigm in academic geography in the past 50 years or so.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Comment: @User:J947, just to clarify, physical geography and earth science have significant overlap but do have some distinctions. First, "Earth science" is listed as one of the Four traditions of geography, which are one method to understand the organization of the discipline. Geography requires a spatial component and does not always employ the scientific method. Earth science can have a spatial component and does require the use of the scientific method (as per the name). Geography predated Earth science by at least a millennium as a term. One difference I like to use as an example is the difference between geology and geography. A geologist can use a microscope to look at crystals under a microscope and never get their boots dirty or look at a map, while geographers fundamentally require a "study area" if applied, and theory is related to the spatial phenomenon. Physical geography was the leading paradigm in the discipline until the mid 20th century, when human geography became more of a focus. Generally, geomorphology, climatology, etc. are viewed as partial sub-branches of physical geography, and in textbooks Physical geography would be placed above them in a hierarchy. I can get sources if needed.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Swap Sample mean and covariance  4 with Covariance  5

Mean  4 is level 4 vitality, no need to list its sample form at such high level. Covariance on the other hand is widely used to measure the relationship between two variables. The Blue Rider 18:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. Gizza (talk) 01:23, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 17:39, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:25, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• On a second thought, covariance might be too similar to Correlation  4. The Blue Rider 18:45, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Swap: Remove Eunuch  4, add Castration  5

The process should be more important than the men who result from it.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:40, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Female genital mutilation  4 is listed and Eunuchs had a big historical importance in Imperial China and in the Middle East; eunuchs often held positions of power. The Blue Rider 16:00, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per The Blue Rider. — 🔥Jalapeño🔥 Stupid stuff I did 12:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 19:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Run-DMC  5 and Kanye West  5 (potential swap with Joan Baez  4 and Dolly Parton  4/Buddy Holly  4)

We got to have more rappers than just Tupac Shakur. Hip-hop just celebrated its 50th anniversary last year, and it’s one of the biggest genres in the world right now. It is certainly more popular than country or (European) folk, which we decided for each genre to list three of its musicians on here (four if you count Bob Dylan and to a much lesser extent Taylor Swift). I think we need at least two more hip-hop musicians on here.

Run-DMC is probably the easiest group we can promote. They are frequently called “the Beatles of hip-hop”, and for good reason. Besides being the first rappers to have their videos played on MTV and be featured on the cover of Rolling Stone, they are also the first hip-hop act to go gold, platinum, and multi-platinum. Not only that, they are arguably single-handily responsible for transforming hip-hop from old-school to new-school, with not just their music (rejecting the disco-driven party anthems in favor of hard-edge rhymes and drum machine-heavy beats) but even with the way they dress. (Before, rappers used to wear dramatic, flashy outfits when performing. Run-DMC eschewed that with, well, regular street clothes, including most famously Adidas shoes.)

Now, I would prefer if we just add these guys, but I understand if we need to swap someone out in order to include them. Baez is probably the least vital person in country and folk. For one, we have her former boyfriend, Bob Dylan. I know he’s listed under rock, but unlike Swift who has abandoned country completely, Dylan’s music by in large still has some folk elements to it. More importantly however, she is just largely not known as a songwriter. For folk musicians, especially contemporary ones, singing your own compositions is pretty big deal, and while she has written her own material, they are not on par with those of Woody Guthrie and Joni Mitchell.

I will admit that it took me quite a while to come up with another person to promote to Level 4. I ultimately decided to nominate Ye, but if someone thinks that there’s a better person to promote, feel free to speak up. West is usually held to be one of the hip hop musicians of all time. Maybe not as a rapper, but definitely as a producer. Six of his albums are on the latest version of Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. Him beating 50 Cent on the album charts with his third album is usually held to bring end of gangsta rap-era of hip hop.

Again, I understand if we need to swap someone before we include him. Again, I don’t think country and folk needs that many people, and after Baez, Dolly Parton is probably the least vital. However, I am open to swapping West with Buddy Holly. We got plenty of rockers, and while his death is tragic, I don’t think his music or status as an icon is as revolutionary or as big as Nirvana.

Support

1. As nom. Swap with Joan Baez and Dolly Parton respectively if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Add Run DMC. I was an occaisional college radio station DJ/contributor in these days. They are the group that commercialized rap with their first three albums that went gold, platinum and multiplatinum. Those three albums paved the way for "Licensed to Ill" and then the floodgates for Rap music.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support addition of Run-DMC with no other changes. Baez, Parton and Holly each independently warrant level 4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The best selling hip hop artist is Eminem  5, who also ranks higher than Ye in the Billboard and Vibe's 50 Greatest Rappers of All Time. I think he is ahead of Ye. Run DMC is significant for different reasons though as early pioneers and it's harder to compare them with contemporary rappers. Gizza (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Myanmar conflict  5

It is the longest military conflict in the world, and its effects are felt in Southeast Asia.

Support

1. As nom --Hoben7599 (talk) 09:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Authoritarianism  5

Surprised this is not listed. We list Totalitarianism, but not this article since this is the opposite of Democracy. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 13:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --RekishiEJ (talk) 11:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Second Industrial Revolution  5

We list the Industrial Revolution and Information Age which is the Third Industrial Revolution, but not this article. Interstellarity (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add History of the Catholic Church  5

As the branch of Christianity with the most followers, it makes sense to include this. Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Personal computer and maybe Mobile device

This is the most common computer in our daily lives. I am conisdering adding Mobile device  5 since it covers things like tablets. Personal computer covers things like Laptop  5 and Desktop computer  5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support pc, oppose md. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Add both.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Both-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add LGBT  5

This was noted as a possible addition to VA4 when I proposed LGBT history  5 at VA5 (because LGBT history in the United States  5 was already listed but not that.. go figure), but since then I also noticed that BDSM  4 was VA4 but not LGBT, which is much more socially significant as the general umbrella term for minority sexual orientations or gender identity. We do already list Homosexuality  4, Bisexuality  4 and others here but I don't think this is redundant due to its commonality and widespread usage in social discourse, and as a societally constructed grouping.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 16:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Clarification that early modern period ends in 1815

There is a discussion about this topic at VA5 _pbp 22:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Reddit

A website that is in the top 10 most visited websites in the world. It has an influence on the internet that is significant for this level. Interstellarity (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not on the same level as Google  4. The Blue Rider 17:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Only a recent phenomenon. --Thi (talk) 13:11, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Not on the level of Facebook  4 or YouTube  4 yet. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Not as vital as stuff like Twitter  5 and Instagram  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
5. Oppose Per Thi.
6. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Comment I think this is a great opportunity to take Facebook and Youtube down a notch to level 5 as well. They are all relatively recent phenomena. Clear up some space in Level 4.

   Wikipedia should be removed first. Feels like WP:NAVEL to me. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Friedrich List

Because he influenced Sergei Witte, the Young Turks (cf. Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property), Deng Xiaoping's post-Mao policies and recent policies in India, he was no doubt a vital economic nationalist.

Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Chromebook

Chromebooks are the only major operating system that we don't list. We list Windows, Mac, and Linux, but not this one. Interstellarity (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. least important. VA5 is OK.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 15:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
3. I am writing this on a Chromebook. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
4. per everyone else Aurangzebra (talk) 06:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

@TonyTheTiger, Thi, OhnoitsvileplumeXD, and Aurangzebra: How are Chromebooks the least important compared to other operating systems? Interstellarity (talk) 10:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Probably one of the biggest tells is that software providers typically don't write applications for ChromeOS whereas they do for Mac, Windows, and Linux. My guess is that the only reason why Chromebook's market share is as high as it is is because it's ubiquitous in schools due to its limited, straightforward platform. It's not really an OS people take too seriously. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not a tech guy. That was my raw interpretation of the market. Things like what Aurangzebra pointed to regarding software point me to that belief. I don't know what the overall usage is, but my recollection of traffic reports on a website were that chromeOS site traffic was lower than the others.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:38, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Brook Taylor  5

He was one of the most influential mathematicians of the 18th century, and made significant contributions to the development of Calculus  3. He developed Taylor's theorem  5 (one of the central elementary tools in mathematical analysis) and Taylor series  4 (very important in calculus).

Support

1. As nom. EleniXDD※Talk 09:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Sergei Witte

Since this person was vital in the industrialization of the Russian Empire, he definitely should be added.

Support

1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Wikipedia

Not doing this to offend our community, but Wikipedia isn't that important compared to Twitter or Instagram which are both not listed. Considering that Wikimedia Foundation failed at level 5, it would make the most sense to demote this article to level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion