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Proposal for new standard table colours[edit]

Module:Sports table has been introduced with great success. As part of the implementation several long standing traditions were formalized and unified in general consensus for all football articles. We all knew some finetuning could be in order. Current consensus is to colour season results in order of importance, regardless of the type of competition. Some have argued that this causes ambiguity from year-to-year and league-to-league because the same colour might mean different things. The proposal is to use the following colour scheme going forward to reduce ambiguity:

Type Green Blue Yellow Red Black
National club
Top flight
Champions League/Copa Libertadores
Top in country green1, lighter green for earlier rounds
Second continental tournament
Top in country blue1, lighter blue for earlier rounds
Tertiary continental tournament
National play-offs/post-league play
Relegation and relegation play-offs
Lighter colours depending on rounds
Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void
National club
Lower divisions
Direct promotion Reserved for cup wins
(qualification for continental tournament)
Promotion play-offs Relegation and relegation play-offs
Lighter colours depending on rounds
Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void
International club Direct to next round Secondary result (play-off or lower tournament) Tertiary result (play-off or lower tournament) Relegation (if applicable) Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void
National teams Direct to next round Secondary result (e.g. play-off) Tertiary result Relegation (if applicable) Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void

The following users have participated in related discussions: @Qed237, J man708, Equineducklings, Jkudlick, Arbero, Brudder Andrusha, Kante4: Please list your opinions below. CRwikiCA talk 19:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

@CRwikiCA: @J man708: @Equineducklings: @Jkudlick: @Arbero: @Brudder Andrusha: @Kante4: @Struway2: @Koppapa: QED237 (talk) 21:12, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

I think ping didn't work, I am repinging the editors that haven't replied yet, because I assume they didn't see this thread. Besides the opinion is split in the discussion right now, so more input is desired. @Equineducklings, Arbero, Brudder Andrusha, Kante4, Struway2, Koppapa: CRwikiCA talk 15:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Current consensus is "Green should be used for the top-level positive event (promotion, champions league, qualification, advancing to next round), blue for the second-level positive events (promotion play-offs when direct promotion exists, play-offs when direct qualification exist, secondary continental tournament), red for bottom-level negative events (relegation) and yellow for other level events (e.g. pre-1999 European football with European Cup [green], Cup Winners Cup [blue], UEFA Cup [yellow]). In addition, lower level colours should be used when teams qualify for different rounds (with lower levels corresponding to entry in lower rounds [green1 first, then green2, etc].) Black should be used when teams do not play a full season and their results are expunged or void. This consensus exists to have a uniform table appearance across Wikipedia." I think ths should be mentioned. QED237 (talk) 21:45, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposal A: The colour coding table should be used[edit]

The colour coding table above should be used instead of using green/blue/yellow in order of importance within a table.

  • Neutral CRwikiCA talk 19:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong agree - This doesn't create any changes involving European articles, but it helps create a standard which covers several Asian/Oceanian Leagues which incorporate or have incorporated Champions League qualifiers spots, Continental Cup qualifier spots and Finals Series qualifiers (example of how this looks). The only major change involves seasons where there is no Continental Cup qualification spots, wherein the finals series qualifiers will be kept as yellow and not upgraded to blue, as the second highest competition possible that season. - J man708 (talk) 20:02, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
@J man708: but this does effect many european leagues as the promotion playoffs will be yellow instead of currently blue? At least that is how I interpret the table above. QED237 (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
The teams involved in promotion playoffs perhaps could be shown in a lighter form of green, as they are playing off for a green promotion spot. I made mention to this possibility at the top of the page, I do believe. In the Tasmanian National Premier Leagues competition (one of several Australian second divisions), the finals series (which doesn't promote to the A-League) is played with the Top 6 from the first division, as well as the two champions of the Northern and Southern Tasmanian Championships (third division champions) instances such as this could be shown in yellow, with promotion playoffs shown in green. (I believe this would also affect the North American Soccer League tables.
@CRwikiCA:, maybe we could have second division playoffs involving promotion (shown in European Leagues) as green, but non-promotion playoffs shown in yellow? - J man708 (talk) 05:08, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
@J man708:In my opinion direct promotion and qualification to promotion play-offs are two very distinct things and should be coloured differently. The Tasmanian example shows how having fixed colours might be troublesome, because there will always be exceptions. CRwikiCA talk 15:04, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
There's always going to be small issues, as this really isn't a one-size fits all category. We just gotta figure out a way to cover the 99.9% and perhaps do the .1% as it comes. :P -- J man708 (talk) 16:11, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose – While I am definitely in favor of standardization across leagues, I fear that if we enforce the prose as written in the table, certain league tables will not have any visual differentiation amongst the final results. For example, the notion of promotion/relegation is foreign (if not abhorrent) to United States football, and there are only two tournaments to which teams may qualify. This means that:
  1. the lack of relegation obviates the use of red;
  2. there is no promotion system to use green, although green could be used within MLS for those clubs qualifying for the CONCACAF Champions League and possibly for clubs in levels 4 and 5 which qualify for the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup;
  3. there is no secondary tournament with which blue could be used, as each U.S. club in USLPro, NASL, and MLS automatically qualifies for the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup, entering in the second, third, and fourth rounds, respectively, although blue could be used instead of green for those clubs from levels 4 and 5 which qualify; and
  4. the lack of a secondary result obviates the need for yellow as a tertiary result.
Therefore, the only color which would be used in the top three levels of United States football, besides green in MLS, is black for that extremely rare occassion that a club does not complete its season for whatever reason. Please correct me if I misunderstand what this table means. — Jkudlick tcs 06:45, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
I'm not 100% sure how the MLS works, but I would say that this proposal would see the teams on the combined table who qualify for the MLS Cup positions being coloured yellow and being upgraded to being coloured green should they win a Champions League spot. These teams would also have numbered footnote link to the bottom of the table, mentioning that they also qualified for the finals series (and another footnote for the Canadian Champions League spot). Also, the Argentine League would have yellow colours too, for the teams who were unsuccessful in gaining a Continental Cup spot from the "Liguilla Pre-Sudamericana" - J man708 (talk) 14:20, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
The United States sends four clubs to the Champions League. Three of them are guaranteed to come from MLS – the MLS Cup winner and the winners of each conference regular season title (or the conference runner-up if the winner also wins the MLS Cup), thus all of those clubs are in the playoffs; the fourth club is the winner of the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup, regardless of the league in which that club plays. My problem is actually with the wording specifying promotion and relegation because there is no system of automatic promotion or relegation in U.S. football. If we use the wording as specified, green will never be used in NASL or USL Pro, even though it could be used in lower leagues. I think using green1 as the "top-level" event for that particular league would be more appropriate (e.g. directly qualifying for the quarter-final round), rather than specifying promotion. If the wording in the table could be tweaked a bit then I could support it more, but it just seems too euro-centric in its current form; I could see someone citing this table to remove green, yellow, and red from all NASL and USL Pro league tables because there is no promotion or relegation, and only using blue if a club in one of those two leagues wins the U.S. Open Cup. — Jkudlick tcs 01:09, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Looking at this, all qualifiers would be Green 1, as they all Qualify for the Group Stage of the Competition. The only ones that don't are the CFU Club Championship teams, who would under this proposal be coloured as Blue 1 in their domestic leagues(or Green 2 if we're stating that they did infact qualify for the Champions League with a footnote mentioning their CFU Club Championship success). The 2014–15 OFC Champions League would be the same. Green 1 for the Group Stage, Green 2 for the Preliminary Stage. - J man708 (talk) 15:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
@Jkudlick:, I just re-read what you said in your last paragraph and I completely missed your point when I first read it. Sorry about that. It seems as though this is something that we've sorta failed to cover. Were you saying that an NASL team cannot qualify for the Champions League at all, or do they have the chance to qualify via the Lamar Hunt US Open Cup? Because if they can, I reckon that within itself would be enough for green to be reserved for that when it eventually occurs. The only national cup that I can think of where the champions don't qualify for the Champions League is New Zealand's Chatham Cup. NZ's CL qualifiers come exclusively from their top flight competition. - J man708 (talk) 12:42, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support – I agree with what most of the consensus says, but as J man mentioned above, perhaps a lighter green colour would fit most of the world leagues. I'm not sure if the example I'm proposing right now is the best, but I believe the colour (light green enough?) the 2014–15 Belgian Pro League championship play-offs spots uses could be a fitting colour for other leagues with promotion play-offs? If anyone got any other league suggestions, then please list them. Arbero (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The Belgian example is peculiar, because every team qualifies for something. It is also an example of a league that wouldn't fit the proposed table, because there are two types of play-offs, with one clearly different from the other. It is, in my opinion, another example why you would want to use a green→blue→yellow scheme to catch all options (rather than have fixed rules). The 2014–15 Segunda División B is also something that doesn't fit within the table. (Of course exceptions can be added, but I feel that the rules will become way too long in the end). CRwikiCA talk 20:13, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
@CRwikiCA:, the Belgian League definitely is an oddity, however I'm stumped as to why someone hasn't come along and coloured the 7th-14th places blue? If they're playing off for a Europa League spot, by the current "rules", that's gotta be coloured blue. These rules are barely conformed to at the moment even within Europe... We definitely need a set of rules on this, pronto... And hopefully one that makes national playoffs like this look far less like they've qualified for Champions League spots, and shows that they can actually qualify for the Europa League. The current set up is in shambles. Yellow disambiguates this. - J man708 (talk) 21:21, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Even with a standard, it is not trivial to have it adopted across Wikipedia. There is a clear set of rules currently, but that doesn't mean everyone is aware of them and follows them. A new consensus would probably not change compliance either. CRwikiCA talk 21:45, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
But it would help us stop fighting amongst ourselves, allowing us to spend more time editing pages that need it. :P Don't you find it a little mismatched that the Eredivisie and the A-League use the same colour for the CL spots, but different colours for playoffs? (Especially when Asia has a secondary continental cup tournament?) - J man708 (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Yep, I suppose J man's Superleague Greece table is a good example. Other leagues with a similar system? Arbero (talk) 23:31, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Proposal B: Levels[edit]

If proposal A is accepted, then the following should happen
Option 1:Level 1 for each colour is supposed to be used for the best round in each table, level 2 for the second-best round, etc.
Option 2:Level 1 should be used for the best achievable round across all leagues, level 2 for second best, etc.
This means that is country A qualifies a team to the group stage, the play-off round and the third qualifying round of the Champions League and country B only qualifies a team in the third qualifying round, that for country B the team should be highlighted with green1 for option 1 and with green3 for option 2. (This will also mean the number of levels of colours will need to be expanded if option 2 would be selected.)

  • Option 1 CRwikiCA talk 19:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Option 2 - This one isn't of as big importance, but it seems to make more sense. What this means is:
Green 1 to be used for the Champions League Group Stage (Ie. 1st-3rd in the English Premier League)
Green 2 to be used for the Champions League Play-off Round (4th in the English Premier League)
Green 3 to be used for the Champions League Third Qualifying Round (1st-2nd in the Danish Superliga)
Green 4 to be used for the Champions League Second Qualifying Round (1st in the Scottish Premier League)
Green 5 to be used for the Champions League First Qualifying Round (1st in the Faroe Islands Premier League) - J man708 (talk) 20:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Option 1 We have to consider that in the future rounds may change, perhaps there will be no more direct qualification to group stage, should green1 never be used? And maybe tournament will have even more qualifying rounds like 6 or 7 or even more, then there is no way to make more levels. I have worked harf with these colors and I cant see a good way to expand to more levels as level1 will be to dark, lower levels to bright/invisible and/or there will be to little difference between levels making them look the same. I stronlgy support option 1. QED237 (talk) 21:39, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
To add I also think option 1 will be easier for unexperienced editors (and me) so we can just use the levels in order instead of having to find out what possible rounds there are for a special tournament and what level the table you edit should have. QED237 (talk) 21:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
This could probably be fixed with a no-include guide listed within each table, stating which colours are designated for which stage of the tournament. - J man708 (talk) 15:21, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Option 1 Were we to go with Option 2, I'd be afraid that we would have to add so many new levels of colors that there might not be enough difference between each individual level to tell them apart. As Qed stated, it would be easier for inexperienced users to work with "Level 1 is the top, level 2 is next, etc." regardless of nation or league. — Jkudlick tcs 05:40, 27 January 2015 (UTC)
Unless I'm hugely mistaken, it would only require a Green 5. - J man708 (talk) 15:19, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
@J man708: That is only the case if no further qualifying rounds are ever added. CRwikiCA talk 15:23, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Is it really that likely? It already goes down to five, dude. (From the GS to the 1st Round) - J man708 (talk) 15:30, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Also, I feel as though if you're saying no to this for the reason that it soon would need to be edited to show a sixth, seventh and eighth round, that within itself justifies all finals series being in yellow, as it's inevitable that each Confederation will have a secondary club cup shown in blue, and we'd soon would need to be edit all finals series to yellow? - J man708 (talk) 15:35, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
@J man708: The reason I say no to it is because it put an extra burden on editors to know exactly what rounds are available for a particular tournament. A tournament like the FA Cup has seven different rounds that clubs can enter. Creating and constantly updating a detailed level table will create too much overhead in my opinion. (Did the ping work for you btw?) CRwikiCA talk 15:55, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
@CRwikiCA: Sure did. They don't need to know beforehand what it is, I mentioned above that "This could probably be fixed with a no-include guide listed within each table, stating which colours are designated for which stage of the tournament." As for the FA Cup, that's kinda a moot point. No tables mention anything to do with FA Cup qualification. - J man708 (talk) 16:01, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
I just used it as a seven-level example. Anyway, let's see whether there will be more people participating in the discussion. CRwikiCA talk 16:05, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Option 1 – Probably the best choice right now, makes more sense to me. Like QED said, I'm afraid option 2 would require us creating new colours, so its definitely taking the biscuit. Arbero (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
  • Option 1 – The reader wouldn't even be able to differentiate the greens when he just looks at a single article. He wouldn't see if or why green2 is used and not green4. -Koppapa (talk) 07:04, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Closing comments[edit]

This thread has been open for over a week and I don't think any further comments are forthcoming. @Qed237, J man708, Jkudlick, Arbero, Koppapa: have participated in the discussion. As I read it I see the following consensus:
Proposal A: two out of four support and one weak oppose. Based on this I would say, consensus is to accept the proposal, yet to tweak it to address the concerns. Based on the discussion I see the following tweaks:

  • Change the top-flight yellow description into: "Tertiary continental tournament;National play-offs/post-league play for title or continental cup entries"
  • Change the lower division green description into: "Direct promotion; Tier 1 play-offs between leagues/groups at same level when no promotion exists"
  • Change the lower division blue description into: "Cup win qualification for continental tournament; Domestic cup qualification"
  • Change the lower division yellow description into: "Promotion play-offs; Tier 2 play-offs between leagues/groups at same level when no promotion exists"

@Jkudlick: Would this in particular make it more applicable to the American situation (and make it less euro-centric at the same time)?
Proposal B:Consensus seems to be to go with option 1 (Option 1 has 5 votes, option 2 1 vote).
Does anyone disagree with this summary or have anything else to add? CRwikiCA talk 18:35, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Should we discuss the situation of national leagues with direct entry into the Club World Cup? Thankfully these are as rare as hen's teeth, so we wouldn't really need a great deal of editing to fix this. Thoughts? - J man708 (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@J man708: The Club World Cup is so rare that I think we don't need to codify it. Did the ping on my prior comment work btw? CRwikiCA talk 15:12, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I did not cast my vote on the first proposal, because I wanted to read the arguments first before deciding. I am leaning towards being neutral or weak oppose. It does not really matter to much, but a great amount of tables have alread been converted and the proposed color change will affecvt many tables where blue for "post season playoffs" like promotion would have to be changed to yellow. We would have to change many tables. Also to change a consensus I believe there has to be clear majority and with one neutral, one weak oppose (two in the middle) I am not sure that can be seen as enough to change current consensus. QED237 (talk) 15:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I think the ping worked. I think I looked at it while half asleep, though. Hahaha. Regardless of the rarity of the competitions, they are of extreme notability and surely deserve recognition. Besides, as I said, we wouldn't need to change many articles, nor would we need to create more colours (with the failure of Proposal B). We'd literally need to change like 10 team's final position colours. This could be done in a few mins. As for the supposed lack of consensus, you failed to make note of the strong agrees, QED. - J man708 (talk) 17:20, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
I think we should just go with yellow as decided, can't really see any other choices. Arbero (talk) 01:19, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
We would need to change a lot of tables, you can not just count top tier. Many leagues has promotion and relegation playoffs, and all of these has to be modified to yellow with this new suggestion. That is a lot of tables that can never be done in "a few minutes" I dont think you have any understanding of European football when saying it takes only a few minutes. QED237 (talk) 10:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Also when I count there is 2 agree, 1 nuetral, 1 oppose and since discussion had not ended, my "vote" counts to (I believe) making it 2-1-2. That is clearly not a majority needed to change current consensus (even if it should not be done by voting). QED237 (talk) 10:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@Qed237: What do you suggest we do when Australian clubs start to take part in a secondary international club competition, demoting the finals series to a tertiary competition? (Something that is looking more and more likely when the A-League expands in, and promotion/relegation finally kick in). When a reader is cycling through the results of Australian top flight seasons, they will see something like the 1986 season, wherein green is for the Club Championship, blue is for the Cup Winners' Cup and yellow for the finals. Then say for example they see some future A-League season, wherein the colour system is the same as it was then. Then they look at the preceding years and it shows the finals series in a dynamic colouring system. This makes it difficult to follow and unnecessary. What if in the future, any league with clubs qualifying for CL, Continental Cups and Finals series were to drop the Continental Cup for a single season for some reason or another? (The AFC for instance changes not only the number of qualifiers per country year by year, but also which countries are able to enter which tournaments). What do we do if a country were to find itself juggling between having clubs qualify for the AFC Cup every second or third season and not? It would have no continuity and look appalling. QED, you seem to have voted negatively (even though your comment less than 24 hours ago stated "I am leaning towards being neutral or weak oppose") on the back of "Oh, it's a lot of articles to edit". My reaction is "So? You were happy enough to see the whole league table templates get changed and that was larger by an monumental proportion!". We can still adjust the finer points of second and subsequent divisions, to make those changes less steep, if you'd like? But once it is complete it will look a lot better for the reader to follow. - J man708 (talk) 13:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
@Qed237: Are you against the principle of fixed colours, or would you only support it if lower division wording would be changed?
@Jkudlick: Would the alternative wording work, in your opinion, for the North American system?
CRwikiCA talk 18:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, my kid's been sick, so I've been AFK all week. I think the change in wording will work for the table. Thanks! — Jkudlick tcs 19:56, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I like the use of green and blue, it has always been these colors, now you want to change so that in all lower levels leagues there will always be green and yellow (not a fan of using yellow). Only in top tier the blue color will be used (and some international tournaments), when blue has been so established earlier. Not sure if there is any wording that could "solve" the issue I am having, I have tried myself, but then it gets weird of top level follow one idea and lower tiers an other rule. Green followed by blue is so much easier for unexperienced editors that dont know if to use blue or yellow when starting new table if second color is always blue. QED237 (talk) 21:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I know you like the look of green and blue, but what I'm saying is that it's so much easier to follow competitions when they are the same colour season by season. @Qed237:, you mention "Green followed by blue is so much easier for unexperienced editors". To me incorporating a new colour template set-up and new colour system didn't seem to show a lot of regard for new users. Why should this matter now?
Do you not see the huge continuity issues when the tournaments that a club can qualify for can change year by year, but with the colours not being defined and seemingly thrown around arbitrarily? QED, what happens should Montedio Yamagata win the Emperor's Cup, but not gain promotion like last season? Who gets the Green then? That for me shows another flaw in the current system. The "system" just doesn't work for non-European and African competitions. How much more proof of this do you need?
I have to ask, why is it that you argue the point about how difficult it will be to update second divisions, but you've shown no regard for making retroactive changes on pages such as the Championship, which contain colours not to my knowledge ever voted in, but you MUST continuously revert the changes I've made on the A-League page that bring it up to maintaining continuity with the other Australian football seasons? Out of sight, out of mind?
My argument is that this new proposal fits the non-European/African Leagues much better, especially for Asia and Oceania. Your argument is that this would change a lot of second divisions. I would love to make a compromise over this. I really would.
Qed, I feel that you're not reading the points I've made. You proved this by stating "That is a lot of tables that can never be done in "a few minutes" I dont think you have any understanding of European football when saying it takes only a few minutes". This was directed at a comment I made that about incorporating a special colour for Club World Cup direct qualifiers. You proved 100% that you did not read my comment about this, as the Club World Cup has never been hosted by UEFA and therefore has nothing to do with European football. You were just looking to pull apart what I said to make me out as a fool, when you weren't even willing to make sure that you were nit-picking the correct comment.
I also feel like you're ignoring the queries I've asked of you, you've still ignored when I asked you to explain your rude comment asking "You have to learn how to count..." Can this hostility stop? Please help make a compromise and stop filibustering? I'd love your input on how this proposal could be altered in the way of second divisions. I've mentioned this several times now, dude.
Guys, you're more than welcome to assist. @CRwikiCA, Jkudlick, Arbero:... I feel like if we can be civil and take in logical points, we will get this sorted in no time. =) - J man708 (talk) 00:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
I will try and answer this very long message, sorry if I miss something. First of all it is so much easier to just say "first you use green for top tournament, if there is a second tournament use blue and if something else needs coloring use yellow". If new editors dont know how the tournament structure is in that region it is so much easier to follow green-blue-yellow instead of having to look up the structure and determening what color to use. The new format was to ease the way of showing parts of a table, but also to make it easier for editor, so dont say "To me incorporating a new colour template set-up and new colour system didn't seem to show a lot of regard for new users. Why should this matter now?" We have always tried to improve for editors.
I get what you are saying from season to season but in 99% of the cases it is the same from season to season and when needed you just add the color yellow, not that hard. In the emperors cup it is easy if the league has promotion (green) and promotion playoff (blue) you add yellow for the cup winner. It works fine everywhere (and the amount of winners from non-top division is like 0,1 % and "we cant cover all cases".
It is true that current table is different from older championship tables but why bring up me reverting vandalism/making correction on those? I have not modified those tables after we started using the module and I can go back in history updating every table, I so no reason to bring up that I have edited old articles. Also then there was no color consensus which we do have now.
When I said that about the few minutes I thought you had responded do my edit above yours talking about how much work it would be to update lower division tables (not only second division, in England only there are 15 table to change if needed and there are many countries...). But now I realise you may not have read and responded to my edit.
About me being aggressive and not being able to count I thought I had apologised for that, sorry. I was in the middle of conflict with a troll on a rant when you suddenly made an edit claiming no consensus for the module which was "feeding the troll" giving him more power continue. In that conflict when I was increasingly losing my patience, your edit was not exactly helping, but I am sorry for what I said.
As I said I have probably missed something. QED237 (talk) 11:40, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
AS QED said, perhaps we should just use the yellow colour for the domestic cup winner and keep the blue colour for the promotion play-offs. Otherwise, most arguments have been used in this discussion, so I don't have anything else to say. Arbero (talk) 20:45, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
@Qed237, Arbero: Sorry for my tardiness. I've been hit with a relatively nasty and energy sapping case of tonsillitis. Shit's fun, yo. Anyway, to the issue at hand. I disagree that the current system is easier than the proposal with respects to first divisions. I understand that second division competitions are probably easier using the current system, but the compromise I'm gonna ask is for when we're dealing with top flight competitions, that Green should be exclusively reserved for Champions Leagues, Blue for Continental Cups, Yellow for Finals/Playoffs Series and like always, light Red for Relegation Play-offs and the normal Red for immediate relegation. This will not extend to second divisions and the pre-existing set ups shall apply for second and subsequent divisions. For seasons when Champions League qualification isn't available, Continental Cups positions will stay as Blue 1 for the highest possibly qualifier position, Blue 2 for the second highest, etc. Where a Continental Cup isn't played, however a similar international club tournament is, this tournament shall be able to use Blue 1 - Example.
I also believe for seasons wherein a direct qualification spot for the Club World Cup is incorporated, this within itself should utilise a seperate and UNIQUE colour, to distinguish itself from Champions League qualifiers.
Failing this, I propose that Finals/Playoffs be deemed as a tertiary tournament, not secondary. With this, I feel as though Green and Blue should solely be utilised in cases of international tournaments. Teams such as Wellington Phoenix FC, Swansea City AFC, Toronto FC, FC Vaduz, etc shall for this purpose be deemed to be from the country whose national league they play in and not the nationality of the city they represent.
Please tell me that we're getting warmer? PS - I think when this is all sorted, perhaps we should work at creating a Go-To Guide for users to reference to avoid situations like this from occurring.
- J man708 (talk) 04:49, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────That might work as well, especially since lower divisions have a lot of different structures. I will be afk most of this week, so I won't contribute much to the discussion. @Qed237: What is your opinion about only changing the colouring scheme for top-level leagues? CRwikiCA talk 14:50, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@CRwikiCA: Before you take off, what's your take again on direct CWC qualifiers having a unique colour? :P - J man708 (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
@Qed237: What do you reckon of the amended idea to use it for first divisions only? - J man708 (talk) 02:28, 14 February 2015 (UTC)
I have started to lose "strength" and I am tired of this discussion now. I do not think we should have one rule for top tier and one for the others that does not seem right. Either we dont change or we change everything. I understand your view but we already have blue everywhere and changing to yellow would mean a lot of work. QED237 (talk) 15:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
@Qed237:Cheers for the reply and I also agree that this is tiresome, but a lack of energy isn't much of a reason to drop a subject of conflicting interests. I get that it may not seem right, but to me it doesn't seem right that the Template:2008 Major League Soccer season table and the Template:2011 Major League Soccer season table show the Champions League in one colour and the MLS Cup in changing colours. If we only extended this to incorporate first divisions, the changes wouldn't be huge at all, especially if we did them from last season onwards only (like the way that the current all-inclusive colouring system hasn't been retroactively fitted Wikipedia-wide, due to the size of it all). I've had this discussion with another editor, @TheSelectFew: who has also agreed that yellow would disambiguate the issue. Hopefully he chooses to provide feedback here! - J man708 (talk) 10:51, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
@Qed237, J man708: I think the amount of work should not be the issue here, especially if it is going to be implemented going forward. @Arbero: makes frequent table update everywhere and might be willing to convert colours throughout for this season. I agree that if we go forward with this, then we should use the full proposed model. Qed, aside from the work that would be needed to change current tables, do you have any other objections assuming we list an unambiguous overview somewhere if accepted? As to the CWC qualifiers, I would just leave it out of the proposal and keep it green1, because it is CL qualification, the CWC is more a novelty for those teams. CRwikiCA talk 18:13, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Why not include it? It's literally like 10 pages that it affects. Less if we don't count situations like Gamba Osaka winning the ACL and qualifying as hosts, making Adelaide United technically hosts. We can tie up the nitty-gritty of it all. @CRwikiCA: If the original status quo was to have them included in all articles, would you be arguing for them not to be included for the same reason? I don't think they were ever included simply due to oversight, never consensus. We can also add to them a note, which could signify that they also made it into the Champions League. It might be a novelty thing, but regardless, it's of extreme notability and therefore surely has no reason not to be included. - J man708 (talk) 22:49, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
I suppose we can add it with the purple colour as you suggested before, it doesn't matter to me one way or another. CRwikiCA talk 19:15, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
It would be a shame for it to go to waste! I'll try and throw something together for that in the next couple of hours and see how it looks. Let's go back to that original topic. Those damn colours! - J man708 (talk) 00:25, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
I cannot believe this subject is still going on after all these months. Seems like we have a difficult time agreeing with each other. My apologies if I didn't add much to the discussion. Arbero (talk) 12:06, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

@Qed237: You seem the most vocal against this, but aside from the work that would be needed to change current tables, do you have any other objections assuming we list an unambiguous overview somewhere if accepted? CRwikiCA talk 16:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry guys, been busy these last few days with other Wiki things. I really do think we've done enough to warrant this happening. Only one person has mentioned this not being a consensus. I have no idea why we've been waiting so long on this. It seems that your only concern is that this is going to be a lot of changes, which I think is kinda odd, seeing as how all the ladders themselves were changed and you didn't seem to care about that (or the fact that while consistantly reverting the colouring system on the A-League article, you never noticed that the New Zealand one has been yellow for about a month now). I'm happy to do the hard work on this one. - J man708 (talk) 12:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
IF you have read all comments you see that is not my only reason and as said earlier there is not the big majority needed for a change in consensus, also as said earlier. QED237 (talk) 14:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
You don't seem to care about improving it, just saying no. Yellow disambiguates. Blue causes issues with continuity with not only other A-League pages, but other Asian pages. How about instead of just saying "No" all the time, you contribute to fixing the continuity issue? - J man708 (talk) 15:46, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
Of course I care and I dont say no all the time, that is just ignorant to say. I would not have been such a big part in development of the module and other things all around wikipedia otherwise. What is improvement is a matter of opinion and I see no improvement in the mentioned suggestion. QED237 (talk) 16:22, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
@Qed237:Right, well then please for the love of God, work with me on fixing this, rather than sticking your head in the sand. We've discussed this issue and @Arbero: seems to agree, @CRwikiCA: seems to want to bring this to a consensus. How about instead of sitting on my User Contributions page, reverting everything I do, perhaps work on something else for a change? The Club World Cup listings for example? I've been putting them together to list for CRwikiCA, as was mentioned on this page up a few thousand sentences, and also somewhere on Page 92 or similar in the archives and getting his thoughts. Perhaps you don't need to revert everything I do and actually leave it for a minute, so I can mention what I'm trying on here? - J man708 (talk) 16:35, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
WP:BRD Could you just discuss instead of re-reverting or this risk being edit war (already WP:3RR) we all want discussion to end there is no need to attack other editors saying that "they stick head in sand" and I am not fololowing you I have 5k pages on my wathlist tyhat I check out and see changes. Not need to be so agressive, we all want solution to the issue. QED237 (talk) 17:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
But, you actually reverted it four times in less than an hour before requesting it to be locked? If you're going to take it upon yourself to voice your opinion on here a lot, that's fine, but that doesn't grant you higher powers by thinking that you're doing the right thing. Two wrongs don't equal a right. The head in the sand comment was generally directed to the fact that this conversation has spanned months, akin to the time where you gave up on commenting on here but continued to stop the edits that this conversation was requesting. Either way, I've replied to your message. I do hope I understood what you were requesting. If not, I may have to ask you to reword what you mean. It's really late here and I can't quite put words together as well as I could during the day. - J man708 (talk) 17:57, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Question about usage of the color black for abandoned leagues[edit]

I've just added the sports table module to the article on the 1998 Jordan League which was abandoned entirely midway through for unknown reasons. In this sort of situation should every team be in black, on account of none of them having played all their matches? I left the table uncolored because personally I think it wouldn't look that great, and wouldn't communicate much.Bosstopher (talk) 16:19, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

@Bosstopher: I agree, colours should only be used when applicable to part of the table. It is a very peculiar case though, was there ever an unofficial reason to cancel the end of the season? CRwikiCA talk 16:37, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
I have no clue. The only source I have is this, which intriguingly writes "[championship abandoned?!]" and gives no further explanation. I'm guessing some news source must exist in Arabic explaining what happened, but there doesn't seem to be anything in English.Bosstopher (talk) 16:41, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
I would have to agree, no need to color the entire table. Instead it should be clear in article the season was abandonned, but no need to color in the unique case. QED237 (talk) 16:59, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Agree with the above. It's not necessary to colour this, unless teams were directly relegated or kicked out of the league after this half-season. I'm guessing there was no international qualification, either? If nothing of note happened (outside of the league being disbanded for that season) and all of the teams returned for following season, I see no harm in adding the necessary information into a paragraph somewhere in the article itself.
- J man708 (talk) 15:53, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Consensus[edit]

After discussions at User talk:J man708 we have reached an agreement and I will post it here for comments if anyone has any comments, otherwise this will be considered consensus.

There are three things we have agreed on, presented in the following numbered list:

  1. Use yellow color for all national competitions such as Promotion playoffs and other post-season tournament (final series), instead of current blue that will be used for secondary national competition. This according to discussion above and explained in the color table below.
  2. Use a new special color for qualification to Club World Cup, proposed as Copper color in table below. This to make a difference between Champions League so both is not green.
  3. Display all competitions in the qualification column as far as possible, for example "Qualification to Champions League Group stage and Final series" with the proper links to both tournament. This since it is not good to hide qualifications in the notes and for example if teams 1 and 2 dont show "final series" readers may think they dont participate in that tournament. The color should be color of most important tournament so first Copper followed by green and blue.
  4. Wikilinks to the tournaments should be according to discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 91#Comments. That means "2015 FIFA Club World Cup" would be "Club World Cup" and 2014-15 AFC Champions League" should be "Champions League" (with wikilink to correct season torunament like [[2014–15 UEFA Champions League#Group stage|Champions League Group stage]]). In cases with multiple tournaments rounds may also be omitted like "Qualification to Champions League and Final series" if the information gets long.

The colors can be described in the following table

Type Green Blue Yellow Red Black Extra Color
National club
Top flight
Champions League/Copa Libertadores
Top in country green1, lighter green for earlier rounds
Second continental tournament
Top in country blue1, lighter blue for earlier rounds
Tertiary continental tournament
National play-offs/post-league play for title or continental cup entries
Relegation and relegation play-offs
Lighter colours depending on rounds
Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void Global tournament
Club World Cup
National club
Lower divisions
Direct promotion
Tier 1 play-offs between leagues/groups at same level when no promotion exists
Cup win qualification for continental tournament
Domestic cup qualification
Promotion play-offs
Tier 2 play-offs between leagues/groups at same level when no promotion exists
Relegation and relegation play-offs
Lighter colours depending on rounds
Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void Extra
(if needed)
International club Direct to next round Secondary result (play-off or lower tournament) Tertiary result (play-off or lower tournament) Relegation (if applicable) Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void Extra
(if needed)
National teams Direct to next round Secondary result (e.g. play-off) Tertiary result Relegation (if applicable) Teams does not play a full season and/or their results are expunged or void Extra
(if needed)

Any comments? QED237 (talk) 14:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@CRwikiCA, Arbero, Equineducklings, Jkudlick, Brudder Andrusha, Kante4, Struway2: that has been involved earlier. QED237 (talk) 14:59, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@Koppapa, J man708: Apperently all did not work QED237 (talk) 15:00, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Looks ok. -Koppapa (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Agree - The more I see that bronze colour, the more I like it. This proposal would see a page such as the 2013-14 Moroccan League showing the following changes...
Pos
Team
Pld
W
D
L
GF
GA
GD
Pts
Qualification or relegation
1 Moghreb Tétouan (C) 30 16 10 4 36 25 +11 58 Qualification to Club World Cup and Champions League
2 Raja Casablanca 30 16 7 7 40 15 +25 55 Qualification to Champions League
3 FUS Rabat 30 12 12 6 31 21 +10 48 Qualification to Confederation Cup
4 Kawkab Marrakech 30 11 15 4 30 19 +11 48
5 Difaâ El Jadida 30 10 15 5 30 19 +11 45
6 Wydad Casablanca 30 10 13 7 34 29 +5 43
7 FAR Rabat 30 9 12 9 30 30 0 39
8 Hassania Agadir 30 10 8 12 36 43 −7 38
9 RSB Berkane 30 6 17 7 24 22 +2 0351 Qualification to Confederation Cup
10 Chabab Rif Hoceima 30 10 6 14 23 32 −9 0352
11 Olympic Safi 30 7 12 11 28 30 −2 33
12 KAC Kénitra 30 6 14 10 21 31 −10 32
13 Olympique Khouribga 30 8 9 13 20 35 −15 0313
14 Maghreb Fès 30 7 10 13 27 36 −9 31
15 AS Salé (R) 30 6 11 13 25 33 −8 29 Relegation to Botola 2
16 Wydad Fès (R) 30 5 11 14 26 41 −15 26

Updated to games played on 26 May 2014.
Source: Link on page
Rules for classification: 1) points; 2) goal difference; 3) number of goals scored
(C) = Champion; (R) = Relegated; (P) = Promoted; (E) = Eliminated; (O) = Play-off winner; (A) = Advances to a further round.
Only applicable when the season is not finished:
(Q) = Qualified to the phase of tournament indicated; (TQ) = Qualified to tournament, but not yet to the particular phase indicated; (RQ) = Qualified to the relegation tournament indicated; (DQ) = Disqualified from tournament.
1RSB Berkane qualified for the 2015 CAF Confederation Cup as runners-up of the 2014 Coupe du Trône since winners FUS de Rabat qualified for the 2015 CAF Confederation Cup.
2Chabab Rif Hoceima were deducted 1 point.
3Olympique Khouribga were deducted 2 points.

This shows the tournament(s) that the teams qualify for, ordering them by importance and having the colouring system showing this additionally. It is heavily disambiguating, while not adding excessive and hard to follow information for the reader. - J man708 (talk) 15:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@J man708: But we said not to show Confederation? That would mean no CAF. QED237 (talk) 18:30, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
My bad. I did it at like 3:00am. - J man708 (talk) 02:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I agree that this is a nice concise chart, and I feel that this can work. — Jkudlick tcs 15:58, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Support per prior discussion. CRwikiCA talk 19:24, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Based on the previous discussion and the unanimous consent for the consensus proposal, we can safely say this has passed and can be implemented now. CRwikiCA talk 16:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I copied the consensus to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/League_season#Table_formatting for future reference as well CRwikiCA talk 16:09, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

JS Kabylie[edit]

Eyes on JS Kabylie please. I removed 40k of unreferenced and poorly-written material, have been reverted and my edit labelled as "vandalism". Have re-removed but now stepping away. Thanks, C679 17:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

While I agree that a lot of it is unreferenced and very poorly worded (clearly translated from French by someone who doesn't speak English very well), the information is relevant, it just needs references. Also, some sections (like titles, CAF performances and former players) can stay, even without references. I've started working on the article but it'll take some time but it'll be easier to keep all the details as they are and fix them instead of removing them and starting over. TonyStarks (talk) 14:04, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
It does look like a bit too much was removed, the notable players listing has clear criteria and can be confirmed to individual articles, likewise the honours section. I don't think it is right to add back the large amounts of unsourced prose though as they have been challenged. Feel free Tony to take them to your userspace and add the relevant sources there then add back once you have done that. Fenix down (talk) 14:29, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
That works for me TonyStarks (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Need help for move[edit]

Arifović Ibrahim has this strange name because some time ago some user insistently was creating and recreating his article so he ended up making this article with a changed sequence of surname+name instead of name+surname. The aorrect title should be Ibrahim Arifović, but only an admin can make that move. He passes now notability. Can someone please do it? FkpCascais (talk) 05:40, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. GiantSnowman 13:05, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Many thanks! FkpCascais (talk) 15:06, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Flag of Wales[edit]

If the current flag of Wales was introduced in 1959, should pages reporting Welsh teams' results from before that date be displaying File:Flag of Wales (1953-1959).svg? See the German and the Italian articles on the 1958 World Cup, which are both using that flag version precisely. And what was the Welsh flag prior to 1953? --Theurgist (talk) 02:05, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

That last question sounds like one for WP:WALES. I do agree that the 1953-59 flag should be in use for matches played between those years though. – PeeJay 12:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Historical flags have always been used (i.e. different German/Italian flags for historical World Cup squads) and this should be no different - though I will admit I had no idea there was a different flag before 1959! GiantSnowman 13:12, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Have asked on Ref Desk re:pre1953 flag at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities#Welsh flag - pre 1953. Nanonic (talk) 14:03, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I found out that the German article de:Flagge von Wales lists the following three flags:

And de:British Home Championship uses the three of them (each one for the relevant dates). There seems to be a description of the first one - File:Wales1807-1953.gif - at Flag of Wales#Modern use, though the image isn't there. --Theurgist (talk) 16:34, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Flag of Wales#Modern use says that "In 1807 the red dragon on a green mount was adopted as the Royal Badge of Wales, and on 11 March 1953 the motto Y Ddraig goch ddyry cychwyn [...] was added. The badge was the basis of a flag of Wales in which it was placed on a horizontal white and green bicolour" - that could be read as saying that prior to 1953 the flag was the same as it is now, then they added the motto ribbon in 1953, then took it off again in 1959. The wording, though, is highly ambiguous...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
This BBC article says that "in Caernarfon in 1911, at the investiture of Edward, Prince of Wales, the flag appeared in its current form, helping its rise to prominence", but again that's quite ambiguous -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:48, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
I was confused by the statements that the current flag "was officially recognised as the Welsh national flag in 1959" and "was granted official status in 1959" - does that mean it was created in 1959, or did it already exist, albeit not as an official one, prior to that date? --Theurgist (talk) 16:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
This film of the 1958 Commonwealth Games shows (at 9:26) the "1959 flag" in "official" use at that time. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

But the third one is actually File:Flag of Wales 2.svg, which is different from File:Flag of Wales.svg. Why are there two variants and what's the difference between the two? --Theurgist (talk) 16:42, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

They both have the same heraldic elements - the differences are not significant. Alansplodge (talk) 20:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
"Cumberland Clark’s... 1934 book ‘The Flags of Britain’ has; ‘Those who happen to be in Wales on Saint David’s Day will catch a glimpse of a British banner that is rarely seen beyond the boundaries of Cambria. The national flag of Wales has a horizontally halved white over green background, with the famous Red Dragon over all.’" History of Y Ddraig Goch. Alansplodge (talk) 20:56, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
So prior to 1953 the flag was the same as it is now, then.........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
It certainly reads that way. Clarity is not a strong point of any of the references though. Alansplodge (talk) 22:20, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

So shall we be using either or both of the variants (particularly the 1953 one)? In order for this to be possible, Template:Country data Wales needs to be adjusted. I requested that on the template talk page, but an admin declined to do it. --Theurgist (talk) 14:23, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

We've always used historical flags in a historical context, Wales should be no different. IJA (talk) 15:08, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I completely agree with that. The question is whether it's sufficiently certain that these flags are indeed the "correct" ones for the specified dates (1807–1953 and 1953–1959).
In any case, first an admin needs to adjust the template. Then, I'll take care of making the necessary changes throughout the articles. I've done that sort of thing on several occasions already. --Theurgist (talk) 06:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Titles and source.[edit]

Hi,

Could someone take a look at Valencia CF and Atletico Madrid. An IP is disagreeing with me and adds content with wilipedia as source for "third most succesful" and so on. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. QED237 (talk) 11:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, even speaking as a Valencia fan, the ip is more correct than the people reverting. Atletico have won more La Liga titles than us and more European trophies. It should be a simple matter of sourcing those facts and dropping the POV "most successful" stuff. The question of "most supported club" is more problematic. It would be better to simply reword that more neutrally to saying that Atletico had the third highest attendance in 2013/2014, Valencia had the fourth highest attendance etc. Valenciano (talk) 12:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
It is not the content here, it is the sourceing, with the editor removing reliable source and add content with wikipedia as source. All content not reliable sourced, I will revert. QED237 (talk) 12:49, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source - we rely on reliable, third-party sources. GiantSnowman 12:51, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
@QED, as I said, it's a simple matter of sourcing those facts and writing it in a neutral way. Valenciano (talk) 12:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes, probably but without proper source I can not know it is true and as long as it is not properly sourced and can be verified it can be removed. Especially since sources was removed, the original content can be restored as it was sourced. QED237 (talk) 13:03, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Try this source, in Spanish, from Marca. It's from 2012 and says that Atletico had won 9 titles at that point. They won the tenth last year. (Source.) Marca also mentions Bilbao's eight league titles and Valencia's six titles. Based on the Marca article, the question of who has won more European titles is trickier. Atletico had won 4 European trophies at the time of the Marca article and added the Europa league of 2012 subsequent to that. The Marca article mentions 6 European trophies for Valencia, which they say includes 2 Fairs Cups, so it's down to whether they're considered official or not. Safer to dispense with the idea of "third/fourth most successful club in Europe" altogether and simply state the facts, which can be sourced to the above. Valenciano (talk) 13:33, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
As you said, probably best to remove comparison. There is no reliable source comparing the two clubs without it being WP:OR and having to do the math outrselves and compare clubs. Also it may easily become outdated. QED237 (talk) 14:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Question about WP:NFOOTBALL[edit]

Per WP:NFOOTBALL players who've played in top flight leagues[fully professional leagues] automatically meet notability standards. Do individual seasons of a top flight league also automatically meet notability standards? I ask because there's a whole load of articles I want to put up for deletion, and I want to make sure I'm not doing something stupid. Bosstopher (talk) 16:22, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. Also worth noting though that the player qualification only applies to top flight leagues that are fully professional. For leagues. pro status is irrelevant, and we have series of articles on leagues well down national pyramids. Number 57 17:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Players in top flight does not automatically meet notablility standard, only those who have played in a fullty professional league does. Individual seasons should be based on WP:GNG I believe? QED237 (talk) 17:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Generally, a countries top level is deemed notable for a season article as are club articles on a particular season if they fulfill WP:NSEASONS. Fenix down (talk) 17:21, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
To clarify the articles in question are 1945 Jordan League - 1979 Jordan League, they're all based off of the same RSSSF webpage, which merely states which team won the season. Bosstopher (talk) 17:44, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── - "Per WP:NFOOTBALL players who've played in top flight leagues automatically meet notability standard" = incorrect. GiantSnowman 18:00, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, corrected now.Bosstopher (talk) 18:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the season articles, they are still the top league in Jordan so are notable. I would argue that they need expanding not deleting though I accept this might be difficult to do. Just because an article is very short is not a reason in itself to delete. Fenix down (talk) 11:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Most likely impossible to do. No byte of information is lost if the article is replaced by a redirect to Jordan league. Those articles just were created to fill the seasons template. I have even seen worse examples, like when RSSSF had a question mark after the champion. The article read like "x/y was the second or third season of the league (one doesn't know). Maybe z won the championship." Lol. Can't remember the country though. Prodded similar articles once, was reverted because "the season is notable", didn't care again for those. -Koppapa (talk) 11:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
@Bosstopher: - I think the real question is, why would you want to put "a whole load" of seasons articles up for Deletion? If these articles only have the same RSSSF website as their only source, don't you think your time and effort would be much better spent trying to find new sources/ references to add to the articles and expand them instead of trying to delete them? Deleting articles doesn't make wikipedia a better encyclopaedia, adding references to existing articles and expanding them does. IJA (talk) 14:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Emmanuel Sonupe[edit]

Hello, question regarding Emmanuel Sonupe, he's gone on loan to St Mirren recently but has never played for the Tottenham Hotspur first team, so does his "senior career" start for Spurs in the Infobox? You'll see :years1 is not dated; should it be?.. Thanks in advance... JMHamo (talk) 18:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Either 2014 (start of 'senior' season, my preferred choice), 2015 (when his senior career actually started), or perhaps an earlier year (when he turned professional) - it definitely shouldn't be blank. GiantSnowman 18:49, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Battle of Old Trafford[edit]

I'm having a bit of a rough time settling a dispute with an increasingly belligerent user at Talk:Battle of Old Trafford. Would anyone care to weigh in with a third opinion on some of the issues we're having? – PeeJay 00:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Seriously, this is getting silly now. I need someone else to add to the discussion before I explode from saying all the things I'm not allowed to say as a Wikipedian. – PeeJay 19:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I'll try to help out. —  Cliftonian (talk)  03:06, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Scarborough Town F.C.[edit]

Someone has deleted Scarborough Town F.C. after a very short-lived AfD debate by a meagre score of 2-1 (WP:RAPID). I maintain that the club is a significant part of Scarborough F.C. and Scarborough Athletic F.C.'s history, as the second phoenix club almost split the fan-base in half causing a massive rift, which is not insignificant in the context of Scarborough's footballing history (WP:LASTING). Yes I know that the club has not played in a fully professional league (and how could it) but neither did Scarborough Athletic upon its formation and the assumption is they tried to emulate the original Scarborough club, i.e. they were aiming to climb up the leagues (which they did before they suddenly went bust).

For the purposes of Wiki-policy it satisfies WP:GNG:
"Significant coverage": it's had more than enough coverage in the media, mostly local but they're still independent sources
"Reliable": newspapers independent of the subject are a reliable source
"Sources"- "multiple sources are generally expected" - well it met that criteria too
Obviously it has now largely been forgotten as everyone is concentrating on Athletic's progress. However at the time the club was very much on par with Athletic in terms of coverage.

Also it is not WP:ROUTINE: The club's movements were monitored because they were a hope of rebuilding football in the town. That is comparable to Hereford F.C. who are, as of yet to even enter a league. In a hypothetical situation, if they were to fold in 3 years, I don't think that would suddenly would make the article useless (WP:NTEMP)

At the AfD discussion it said that the club has not been noted for anything. Well that's not true, it had attendances between 200-400, which may seem not much, but is very comparable to teams like 1874 Northwich and Enfield Town which are much higher up, and significant proportion of overall Scarborough fans.

Therefore I propose to restore the article Abcmaxx (talk) 01:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Lnhbm's templates[edit]

Please take a look at the templates created by Lnhbm (talk · contribs). SLBedit (talk) 11:13, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to raise at WP:TFD, I agree they should be deleted. GiantSnowman 13:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
I've put them up at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 March 2#Champions League/European Cup winning squads. Please provide your input there. --Jaellee (talk) 19:52, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Nineteen (19) separate championship football team navboxes have been nominated for deletion in the TfD discussion @ Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 March 2#Champions League/European Cup winning squads. As this is a subject area in which members of WikiProject Football might be expected to have an interest and background knowledge, your participation in this TfD discussion is invited. Regards, Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:56, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Attention needed at Adam Johnson (footballer) - high level of IP BLP abuse[edit]

A series of IP users are adding material that violates WP:BLP. Hack (talk) 17:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Semi-protected for 10 days and some revisions deleted from the history per BLP. BencherliteTalk 17:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

(Un)-reliable sources[edit]

Question: is adding a source for a match report such as this one (http://www.fcporto.pt/pt/futebol/fichas-de-jogo/Pages/FCPorto-Sporting.aspx) biased? I believe it's pretty much the same as adding an official website release for when a player is purchased, no? Just as long as the storyline that accompanies the source is not biased and/or contains POV...

Attentively --84.90.219.128 (talk) 19:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

English club categories[edit]

Is it just me, or is the categorisation of English clubs a bit all over the place? Some clubs are in both "Football clubs in [county]" and "Football clubs in England" (eg Gillingham), some are in the county category but not the England category (eg Ashford United), and some are in the England category but not the county category (eg Celtic Nation). Should clubs actually be in both the county and England categories or just the county one (in which case lots of clubs need moving)?

Also, defunct clubs are not in "Football clubs in England", as there is a separate category of "Defunct football clubs in England", but at county level there are no separate defunct club categories, so active and defunct clubs are lumped in together, meaning that a club like Dover are in a separate defunct clubs category at national level, but just the generic "Football clubs in [county]" category at that level - does there need to be some clean-up/re-jigging there too..........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:32, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I raised this quite recently. All current clubs should be in Category:Football clubs in England as (a) county categories also contain defunct clubs and (b) it's really helpful to have a single category where you can see all the clubs (it helps me spot the non-notable ones that people add from time to time). Number 57 10:20, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Agree with N57, and this applies to all countries (Brazil is one especially bad for this in my experience). GiantSnowman 11:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)