Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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WikiProject Football (Rated Project-class)
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Primera División leagues[edit]

Need some help/input from the WikiProject Football community. Some time ago we held a discussion for renaming La Liga to Primera División. No consensus was reached (and after re-reading the discussion I believe staying as La Liga was the best action) but the rest of the football leagues named Primera División were moved to disambiguate the leagues of Spanish-speaking nations. The format was Demonym Primera División (e.g. Argentine Primera División). I look at the list of Primera división leagues and using the English demonym with the Spanish for first division just seems a little off—not sure if you guys know what I mean. I was re-reading WP:COMMONNAME and I'm not sure if these should've been moved to their current format. Anyone have any thoughts? Should the discussion be re-opened? --MicroX (talk) 20:49, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Why can't it stay La Liga? Anyways, name of articles here is constantly being changed (last one was Belgian Pro League). I am of the opinion all the competitions should be named in this WP in English (i.e. Portuguese First Division, German Second Division, French Third Division) so we wouldn't have to worry anymore about future renaming of competitions, just my two cents. --Be Quiet AL (talk) 21:59, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
Names of articles have to be changed because names of things keep getting changed. Not our fault organisations are always trying to rebrand themselves in an effort to stay "fresh". That said, I think unless there's a seismic shift in a league's name (e.g. Mexican Primera DivisiónLiga MX) we should leave the names as they are and deal with them on a case-by-case basis going forward (as we have been for the last decade). – PeeJay 23:22, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

A good example of what I was trying to convey is the Bulgarian top flight. Article has changed name three or four times is as many years. --Be Quiet AL (talk) 17:13, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I wasn't saying to change La Liga. The arguments made to retain it as La Liga convinced me. I was referring to the other Primera División leagues. Also, why is it called Belgian First Division A and not "Belgium First Division A" like Belgium national football team (and not Belgian national football team). I'm really curious as to when to use the name of the country and not the demonym. --MicroX (talk) 03:48, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Players with missing club categories[edit]

I have managed to get a list of all players in Category:English footballers that are missing "Category:Footown F.C. players" based on the clubs listed in their infobox – see User:Number 57/sandbox2.

Having been through it and started doing a bit of work to resolve the missing categorisation, there are some points to note:

  • If a club's name is incorrectly put into the infobox (for example with FC rather than F.C. or A.F.C.) then the player appears in the list
  • In a small number of cases the list has picked up managerial jobs rather than playing clubs (I think this is because it also included "current club" in the search string).

So, if anyone wants to help out reducing the list (it currently has around 11,500 "missing" categories – some players have multiple ones missing), please do. If you add a category, please remove the player from the list (unfortunately due to its size, it is a bit difficult to edit – I've found the best way is to copy it into notepad and then edit it there and then paste it all back in in one go). Additionally, could I ask that in order to remove someone from the list, you either:

  • Add the missing category – in some cases, especially for non-League clubs, this will involve creating new categories.
  • Correct the link in the infobox to match exactly the format used in the category name – this will prevent them from appearing again next time we want to run off a list.

Hope that all makes sense? Cheers, Number 57 21:04, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Would it be possible maybe to split it into a few sub-pages to work with the size issue? --SuperJew (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
No, because some players are listed multiple times, as are many clubs – if you want to focus on a single club or player, then you need the whole list in front of you. However, there are some large blocks of players listed largely as a result of club renames – doing the top 20 clubs will remove over 13% of the articles), so we hopefully can begin cutting it down quite quickly. Number 57 22:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Also, are all clubs notable enough for a category? --SuperJew (talk) 21:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Not all of them, but I think any club that could potentially have an article (i.e. which has played in the FA Cup/Trophy/Vase/Amateur Cup etc) should have one. Worth checking the FCHD for the club listing. Number 57 22:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I was thinking for example Jamie Gosling is currently playing for FNQ Heat, which is a semi-pro club in Australia's second tier. Most of the players who play there aren't notable enough for an article (as not having played at pro level) (currently Gosling is the only one with an article from the players). Do we create a category for one player? --SuperJew (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
IMO, yes, as the category has potential to grow. Other people who could be in it are Takuya Iwata, Alex Smith, Mitch Bevan and Zenon Caravella for a start (always worth checking the "What links here" on clubs too). Number 57 22:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Comment - looking at the Rotherham United (F.C.) entries in the list, I note that

  • Non-playing staff are extracted, who have never played for the club (eg Mark Stein (footballer), Alan Stubbs)
  • Wartime Guests (marked as such in the infobox) are extracted (eg Dennis Thompson (footballer) - these are already included in the Category Rotherham United F.C. wartime guest players. Gricehead (talk) 11:23, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
    • Yes, I think the non-playing staff are in there because of the "Current team" listing, so perhaps than can be excluded for the next run (although I've found at least two players who have a club in the current section but not in the full listing, so it was useful in some way. With regards to the wartime guest players, I guess next time the search should be for missing "Footown F.C. players" or "Footown F.C. wartime guests".
    • Also could I possibly make a request – I see a few editors have already started using the list, which is great, but only removing the listings for certain clubs. Many players have multiple categories listed, so if you're doing a player for your club, could you also check to see if they have any others missing? In the long run, it'll help get the numbers down much quicker! Cheers, Number 57 16:52, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Just an update on this: A bot is being set up that will create and regularly update this list, and for other nationalities. The main page for this is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Missing categories and I'll link to the bot logs (they'll be in its userspace) once it starts running. It should now avoid listing wartime guests, non-playing positions and players in "Footown SC footballers" instead of the more common "Footown F.C. players".

I have also created a list of clubs that it is probably not worth having a category for – clubs that do not meet the criteria for their own article. So far I've only done the A clubs from the original list, but please feel free to add to it. Missing categories for the clubs listed in here will not appear in the lists the bot produces. If by chance a club becomes notable (e.g. reaches the required level to have an article) it can be removed from the list and players should appear.

I should also give a huge amount of credit to KSFT who created the original list and has been incredibly helpful and patient, and is also now setting up the bot. In the meantime, we've removed around 600 entries from the list, including one article that I saw identified as having untrue information in it (it's now at AfD). Cheers, Number 57 20:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I just finished setting things up, and I ran the bot on the same category as before. The list is here. It has 6768 articles listed. As I'm writing this, the bot just finished updating the list because I forgot to have it ignore the categories on that list. I will start to run the bot on other nationality categories to create similarly-named lists. You should be able to see a list of them here. KSFTC 22:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Comment For Turkish clubs, for example Horace Armitage, it seems different as they don't seem to follow the same convention (the category doesn't necessarily match the club name) --SuperJew (talk) 13:19, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
@KSFT: This is another exception for the bot – it looks like some Turkish clubs are at Footown SC (football) and players are at Footown SC footballers. Can the bot ignore these ones too (like the wartime guest exception). @SuperJew: Hopefully we can fix this, although some of the Turkish categories are misnamed as they don't match the article name (e.g. Category:Fenerbahçe footballers needs to be renamed Category:Fenerbahçe S.K. footballers to match Fenerbahçe S.K., which I've already requested) Number 57 13:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I wasn't sure about that one. Thanks :) --SuperJew (talk) 13:34, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
Also I noticed that both Huddersfield Town A.F.C. and Leeds United F.C. are many times linked as Huddersfield Town F.C. and Leeds United A.F.C., but are in the right categories. Should that (A.F.C <--> F.C.) also be added to the exceptions? --SuperJew (talk) 13:35, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I think it would be better to keep it and get the links right, as in some cases the redirect may not exist or they may be in an non-existent category. Probably worth remembering in future that if we move a club article, all the incoming links should be fixed. Should be quite simple to do using AWB though. Number 57 13:38, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

@SuperJew and Struway2: I see you're making great progress, but to stop you having to spend ages on the Huddersfield/Leeds/Wrexham front – would it be worth doing a run on AWB to fix all the misplaced links to those articles, then delete them all from the player lists in one go (in cases where they are the only ones with an issue the whole line can be taken out)? Number 57 11:18, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

That would def be helpful :) --SuperJew (talk) 11:19, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Cool, I'll make some time to do it this evening (I think there are over 500 Huddersfield ones on the English list alone). Number 57 11:20, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Also, there are 80–90 Stevenage Borough, where the category is at Stevenage F.C. Not as many as the other clubs mentioned, but would it be enough to warrant including in your AWB run? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:32, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, no probs. I might add Nuneaton Borough to the list too. Number 57 11:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
So, it turned out there were several thousand articles going to the redirects, and even after removing non-player articles, there were nearly 4,000 left. I'm about halfway through, but probably won't finish tonight... Number 57 19:58, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
@Number 57: - what are some of the redirects? I can add them to my own AWB script to pick up as I do my own stuff. I've got Leeds, Huddersfield & Wrexham so far. GiantSnowman 20:02, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
@GiantSnowman: Stevenage Borough F.C. (now Stevenage F.C.) and Nuneaton Borough F.C. (now Nuneaton Town F.C.) are other two particularly common ones. Thanks for your help! Number 57 20:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
@SuperJew and Struway2: I've done (I think) all the Leeds, Huddersfield, Wrexham, Nuneaton, Stevenage, Gresley and Ebbsfleet ones, plus a few others here and there. I believe KSFT will be doing another run towards the end of the weekend, so hopefully they'll all disappear off the list. Number 57 21:24, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

List or article[edit]

I have noticed a few inconsistencies with a few of this WikiProjects FA/FL/GAs. Many clubs have a XYZ in European football page. A few of these articles have reached FA/FL/GA status. This is where the inconsistency lies. Two of these articles are FLs (therefore could never be an FA or GA) and three (with one more at GAN) are FA/GA (therefore could never be a FL). Shouldn't all these articles be either eligible for FL or for FA/GA not a mixture of both. Here are the articles concerned:

FLs
FA/GAs
At WP:GAN

What does this WikiProject think? Articles or lists? - Yellow Dingo (talk) 02:59, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

The content is different in these. Looking at just two: the Malmo one is a list - it has a list of European results for Malmo. The Liverpool one describes the history of Liverpool in Europe - there are some statistics, but it doesn't actually list Liverpool's results. So at the moment the categorisations are appropriate.
If we wanted to we could consider renaming the Malmo style pages "List of Malmo FF results in European football", but then that would seem to preclude adding further or contextual info. So I think it's fine as it is! Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 17:27, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Per this removal nomination of Rosenborg's list, there is a quite a difference between the clubs aforementioned. Liverpool have a rich history in European football, so the minimum expectation would be an article-type structure, whereas for a club like Malmö, a list is sufficent and it's not like there isn't any prose to complement it by. That isn't to say if Malmö one day does the unthinkable and builds a European legacy, its list status can't be reassessed. Or if a user wanted to turn Hull City's entry (a club which has made few European appearances) into GA quality, there shouldn't be any stumbling blocks. Lemonade51 (talk) 19:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

team franchise relocation in the PSL[edit]

So in the Premier Soccer League of South Africa, Mpumalanga Black Aces dissolved, and their franchise was relocated to form Cape Town City F.C.. What would you say we should do with their templates? Should Black Aces squad be deleted and a new template made for Cape Town or should it just be a move? --SuperJew (talk) 07:58, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I'd suggest a simple move. The proper way would probably be to start a new one for Cape Town and list the Black Aces template for deletion under Wikipedia:DEL10, " Redundant or otherwise useless templates". However, that creates work for you and others, so I'd suggest ignoring all rules and moving the template to the new franchise. Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:40, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
As a general rule, if the page has been moved, the template and categories should as well, to maintain the page histories. GiantSnowman 19:18, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Olympic qualifying tournaments categories[edit]

Does anybody have any suggestions for a category name that will group the following articles together? The articles have details about the African qualifying tournament for the Olympic games.

I'm considering "Football at the Summer Olympics – Men's African Qualifiers".

TheBigJagielka (talk) 12:39, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

That's a good suggestion. Go ahead. -Koppapa (talk) 05:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Jermaine Jenas page rating[edit]

At the moment it rated at Start, I don't think it's good enough for B yet, but I think we should change it to C, Govvy (talk) 18:26, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:BEBOLD. GiantSnowman 19:17, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 :/ Govvy (talk) 20:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Medio Tiempo template issue[edit]

The links created by {{Medio Tiempo}} are 404. Could someone who speaks Spanish check whether the site has changed its link format, and update the template accordingly, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. Secret Agent Julio (talk) 19:11, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Players in italics in squads[edit]

I have noteced sometimes club articles having their players without article listed in the squad section in italics, exemple: FC_Le_Mont#Players. I have never done that neither I see a point in it, but am I missing something? FkpCascais (talk) 05:25, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

This is the first time I've ever seen it. --SuperJew (talk) 06:31, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm gonna change that. Utterly ridiculous. – PeeJay 09:42, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

It's not a good idea. Use of italics is difficult to read for some people, so superfluous use of it is A Bad Thing. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:43, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

I've seen it here and there from time to time. Now we have a consensus here to point to if we ever cross with someone insisting on that. Thanks you all. FkpCascais (talk) 10:33, 29 July 2016 (UTC)