Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Schools

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WikiProject Schools (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is related to WikiProject Schools, a collaborative effort to write quality articles about schools around the world. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page.
 Project  This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.

Merge Infobox school and Infobox UK school?[edit]

Please offer your input at Template talk:Infobox UK school#Merge with Infobox School?. Last merge discussion was in 2007. EyeTripleE (talk) 03:44, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Remove assistant and vice principal positions from infobox[edit]

Please also offer input at Template talk:Infobox school#Remove assistant and vice principal parameters EyeTripleE (talk) 03:57, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

An example of what a school article should not be[edit]

(Moved from article guidelines talk page) I just ran across the article for Waxahachie High School during a recent editing session. I would be interested in everyone's thoughts on how this can become a better article. Indyjrg1762 (talk) 14:54, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

May be better topic for the project talk page. Just deleted the blatant WP:COPYVIO. Everything below the state level should be removed from the lists of accomplishments. EyeTripleE (talk) 17:27, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
I was once told that a Good Article should not have many lists, and that lists should be rewritten as prose. I would not use the "yearbook" parameter in any school infobox (and I think it should be removed as a school infobox parameter, but haven't raised the issue). In this specific article, the marching band program is given undue weight. In the absence of any state or national band championships, I would list one or two of the highest honors earned, or characterize long-term success (i.e. "has placed in the top ten at state competition at every opportunity since 1990"). I would try to add photos, citations that prove alumni attended the school, and historical information (opening date, check for events that received national-level press coverage, etc). --Hebisddave (talk) 16:32, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Please ignore my comments if they upset any local taboos- I normally only put comments on US article talkpages and refrain from editing- but as the EyeTripleE has a name based on such an illustrious organisation I hope he will protect me from incoming flak. Can I turn the question- Do we have examples of what a school article should be? Who is the target reader? I would assess some of these articles in the backlog if someone asked me - and gave me a list of what points to look for when assessing an article and some model articles at stub- start- C- B- GA and above. Anyone who has ever marked for a national examination board (most teachers) understand that those are the requirements. There is a hell of a backlog? Can't we establish a consensus on at least that. What subheadings are we looking for? What are criteria for a German Hauptshule, Realschule, Gymnasium- a French College, Lycée (publique et Privé). How do we assess a UK state school without adding political bias? we then need to UNDUE criteria that are only available to one particular social class? And now I can ask a few silly questions about the article?
Where is it? No location map. What is the local authority that advises it? Governance- who are the governors, annual budget etc. What are the ages of the intake- what is their social makeup. Indicators of poverty, % of intake who do not have the teaching language as their home language? Is the teaching language Spanish or English or bilingual? What is the academic value added- how is this assessed? What % of the graduates continue in education? What % of graduates are proficient in 2 or more foreign languages? What routes do they follow? What is the school day, teaching philosophy the expected homework commitment? What does the school offer in addition to that found in neighbouring schools? How large is the staff, how many of those ate qualified teachers, classroom assistants. How many are on permanent contracts, part-time contracts? What is the pastoral structure? What is the management structure? What is the special needs provision? What % of pupils partake in the sports program? How is that structured to promote inclusion? Is there a programme of overseas visits? How are they financed? What financial assistance is available to ensure inclusion? Are there sponsoring companies and individuals?
Where do you advise the newby editor to go to find a well-written equivalent article. Where is the advice note we can give to an enthusiastic thirteen year old who wants to improve his own schools article. When we have discussed and answered all these meta questions perhaps we could put together a navbov that could be linked to the- I have multiple concerns hat-note.-- Clem Rutter (talk) 18:26, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I suppose Category:FA-Class school articles and Category:GA-Class school articles would be a good places to start looking for well written equivalent articles. WP:WikiProject Schools/Assessment has criteria for quality and importance classification and some examples of articles at each quality level. Category:WikiProject Schools articles by quality has all subclasses for all the different quality levels if you're looking for more articles to compare against. WP:WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines has some pointers and a basic article structure. Is this what you are looking for. EyeTripleE (talk) 19:10, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes and no. I will check them all out again but just looking at the FAs give a three or four US high schools that have received a lot of tender loving care. But one school is mentioned twice, and I have asked for La Martiniere Calcutta to be reassessed. There are no references- so it doesn't even achieve Start class on verification. Thats what editors are up against. We are left with only 4 proper schools! The UK examples Judd- a private company, RNIB is not a school but an FE college (post 18). Yes those 4 schools when you have found them are good articles - but even they need to be internationalised terms like Grade X, doesn't translate to the age of the child. Uk we speak of Year R, Year 1... Year 13. All based on the childs age on 1st September. When we move to Infobox all the terms need to checked. School Number is a synonym for the number of students on roll- I think stateside it is a reference number, similar to the DESNumber.
GA bring in another load of rabbits.God's Choice is a book! UK side I struggle to find one normal stateschools- all are private companies who only accept the rich. How does this provide the necessary model for say All Saints Catholic High School, Sheffield? We have 4000 unassessed- 21000 stubs- no newby editor is going to wade through all those GA to find one that similar to his in order to find a model.
One of Wikipedias problems is that its policies and guidelines cover every conceivable case what we need is concise guidelines for particular school systems. A human can only hold a limited number of facts in their brain concurrently- which I verify decreases rapidly with age. However Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines is incomplete- eg- where do you grab US statistics and inspection reports? Large chunks seem inappropriate for this age group. eg Student Unions. UK side there is a tremendous bias in language towards the minority private school sector- which smells to me of subtle advertising copy! Incidentally the structure proposed does not match that used in all the US school FAs.
WP:WikiProject Schools/Assessment that was always my starting point- but have you looked at it recently- the examples are from 2008, and for example FA Plano High School is now considered a B. Using the Criteria, ad the users experience columns it is easy to differentiate Stub/Start/C but the C/B borderline is harder- and above that the criteria become vaguer and more subjective when they should be becoming more prescriptive.
I have no intention of personalising this debate but there must be a reason why so few of these articles are of a high standard while all of our editors have experienced schools and many have had to make hard choices on behalf of their children. Above all we have to target the advice at inexperienced editors. -- Clem Rutter (talk) 21:33, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Looks like there is a lot of work to do in the WikiProject! From what other editors have told me there aren't that many people working in the School space. This accounts for the dated and poorer shape of the project compared to more active WikiProjects. I have been attempting to clean up the infobox over the last several weeks but it is slow going since input is sparse and the template is locked. I also don't know much about schools across the pond so I don't know how to deal with |student_union= and the like. I agree, we should have articles internationally that can serve as examples to base other articles on. I think part of the problem is the nature of schools. We are really only familiar with the ones we attend so it is hard to improve other school articles beyond C-class. EyeTripleE (talk) 21:52, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The problem in the US is that about the only thing that gets press about schools is athletics. Budgets here are a function of the district, not the individual schools. Realistically, except for a very few, anything above a C for a public school is nigh on impossible. Private schools are a different story, as many of them have had histories written on them. John from Idegon (talk) 07:19, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

It has always irked me that the writers of US school articles seem to feel that American schools are only interested in preparing their students for college sports. Inter-school sports do seem to be a big thing in America so I suppose we can do little about it. That said, I'm obviously biased having gone through the traditional UK school system followed by a 40-year career in teaching in Europe. Without bragging, some examples of GA schools are HCGS and Malvern College. Withoiut looking, I can't remember if any US schools have reached GA. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Most of the editors who edit US school articles seem to be those who are either current students at the school or went there. In many cases, alumni of a given school are connected to their high school only because of athletics (usually attending football and basketball games). I've actually found histories of many schools by doing a little bit of searching online, but most editors either don't know where to find that and/or are simply not interested in it. I got Theodore Roosevelt High School (Kent, Ohio) to GA status in 2010, but it could probably use some revisions and fine-tuning. It's my alma mater so I have a built-in interest in all aspects of the school and I have access to and know where to find aspects of history, curriculum, get photos, etc. (and I'm a teacher, though not at the school, so that helps too...). The article has a sizable section on extracurricular activities, including athletics, but US schools tend to have a larger emphasis and offering for those events than schools outside the US, at least in my experience. But yeah, a LOT of US school articles have little more than athletics mentioned. I try to trim back athletics whenever possible, such as on Woodridge High School, which had individuals, state record holders, and more listed. It included a bit of discussion with a well-meaning editor, but gives us an idea of what we're dealing with in editing US school articles. --JonRidinger (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

campus_bound parameter in infobox[edit]

Can someone tell me what |campus_bound= means in {{Infobox school}}? The description on the doc page isn't too informative. EyeTripleE (talk) 17:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Another editor asked was the meaning was back in 2012 (see Template talk:Infobox school/Archive 4#campus_Bound meaning) with no reply. If nobody knows I am going to request this parameter be removed since it doesn't really serve a purpose. EyeTripleE (talk) 06:57, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
This 2007 edit by Philip Stevens added the parameter along with a bunch of other parameters. The edit summary was "matched code to other school templates". The parameter would display as College Bound, strongly suggesting it has to do something with whether the school prepares students for college. Several uses (such as here) agree with that use. Other school entries use it in a completely different way (such as here). In February 2014, Frietjes changed the label from "College Bound" to "Campus Bound" (diff).
Since most high schools, even those that are not Prep schools, prepare students for admission to college to some degree and since prep schools will very likely say they are prep schools either in their name or in the body of the article, and because of the confusion caused by the name (it could be read as "Campus bounded by...") I recommend removal of this parameter. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 19:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
@Nick Levinson: you may be interested in this conversation, you asked a similar question back in 2012. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 19:56, 24 October 2015 (UTC)
removing it is fine with me. I just think that parameter names should match labels. otherwise, you add something and the label isn't what you expected. Frietjes (talk) 14:21, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for investigating this davidwr! I agree in the U.S. pretty much every secondary school is college preparatory to some extent so it doesn't make sense to use it for U.S. schools. Is this as straightforward internationally though? Would there be a benefit to keeping this parameter (and potentially renaming it) for schools outside the U.S? EyeTripleE (talk) 20:00, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
There are high-school-level programs that are vocational for students who have no desire to go to college, but I wonder if more than a scarce few high schools describe themselves as mostly vocational. If the latter is rare, then that's better left out of the infobox, since the article could explain it more clearly. On the other hand, infoboxes are not mainly for schools' self-descriptions, and maybe many more schools are described in secondary sources as mainly vocational, in which case the infobox parameter, if renamed, would be useful, but, even so, it won't be consistently used.
The parameter in that sense might also be used for schools that may intend for students to go to college but that are so bad that most students never qualify for college. I understand several U.S. cities have high schools from which on average nearly half of students drop out and that doesn't count students who graduate but don't go to college within a couple of years, perhaps marrying or enlisting for military service before or after their high school conclusion.
Matching a name to a label is a good idea, but, of the two, "college bound" is the clearer match.
Maybe "college prep" is even clearer, for both the name and the label.
My guess is that internationally, especially in nations or communities that dispute whether education beyond the eighth grade or girls' being educated is a good idea, many more schools would be designed for non-college-bound students.
Is it feasible to find how many pages have nonblank values for the parameter? If so, I'll leave that research to someone else, lacking time myself.
I was going to have no objection to removal but now I'm not sure.
Thanks for the clarification and for pinging me.
Nick Levinson (talk) 01:52, 27 October 2015 (UTC)
It sounds like this parameter is leading us into murky waters. There might be schools that could claim to be college preparatory but really aren't and vice versa. This is probably better content for the article. It also occurs to me that this information could be put in the |school_type= parameter, e.g. |school_type=college preparatory, so this parameter is redundant. I would support removal of this parameter. EyeTripleE (talk) 18:34, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Discussion that may be of interest to this project[edit]

There is an ongoing discussion here on the use of Template:Infobox school district in settlement articles. Your input would be appreciated. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 17:47, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Merger idea: American Indian Model Schools[edit]

I think American Indian Model Schools, American Indian Public High School and American Indian Public Charter School should be consolidated. Even though they are separate schools and one school system on paper, they all seem to be the same school with different campuses. With traditional 9-12 high schools each one has its own identity and history, but they all share the same history, curriculum, and controversies. Merging may also prevent POV forking. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:58, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Keep the high school article separate per WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. No objection to merging American Indian Public Charter School (which is now known as AIPCS I, serving grades 6-8) into an expanded American Indian Model Schools article and making sure that AIPCS II (serving grades K-8) also gets "due weight"-level coverage in that article. A summary of the high school can be added to that article as well, with a {{main}} template pointing readers to the high school's article. By the way, these articles are out of date. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 05:10, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
Is the middle school notable by itself? Otherwise merging it with the charter school system article is probably best. EyeTripleE (talk) 03:32, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Adding Redirect class[edit]

I think this project should include Redirect class here. It would help separate all the redirects out of Category:NA-Class school articles and if there's a change in consensus regarding the notability of different types of schools, it would be useful to see all the redirects. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Endorse, simply common sense. Not enough of a wonk to do the deed however. :) John from Idegon (talk) 05:18, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
I put in an edit request at Template talk:WikiProject Schools. EyeTripleE (talk) 08:46, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Finished. See Category:Redirect-Class school articles. Use |class=redirect in {{WikiProject Schools}} to assign an article to the redirect class. EyeTripleE (talk) 21:06, 12 November 2015 (UTC)