Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft/Engines

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WikiProject Aviation / Aircraft engines (Rated Project-class)
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Template:Rocket engine proposal.[edit]

Hey! It's me again! Thanks to all for helping me improve the rocket engine templates. I've been working on a nav template Template:Rocket engine (its in my user space) for the concept of rocket engine. Please note the dangerous similarity in name with the recently discusses Template:Rocket engines, which is plural and has different caps. I believe that now that the latter is better scoped, we should rename it to Template:Orbital launch vehicles rocket engines. But that is a different discussion.

This Template:Rocket engine is currently not ready to go into an article, but I believe that it is a good tool to navigate in a glimpse all concepts about rocket engines and, at the same time, to have an idea of areas to enhance regarding rocket engines in Wikipedia. Basically, everything in black should be worked on. This is a big undertaking, and I will need help. I will ping some of you just to get an opinion and post this same request on Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight, Wikipedia:WikiProject Rocketry and Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation since all use rocket engines. As usual, please respond on the template's Talk Page. Baldusi (talk) 22:41, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Calculator operator[edit]

Quiet in here?! There is a new specs section tweaker using a couple of Quebec based IP addresses. Obviously not reading the guideline shortcuts in my reversion edit summaries. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

This is the other IP address.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Chaise engines[edit]

Is there a piston expert out there who could help me understand the point of the Chaise layout? It seems to have been basically an inverted 4 cylinder air-cooled motor but (probably, I've only found a head-on photo so far) with alternate cylinders forming a shallow V. French contemporary sources refer to it as "quinconcés", which I read as quincunxed; must refer to the crankshaft, I guess. But why this unusual layout? Balancing? Does it relate to Chaise engines previous main applications, motorbikes and cars? Cheers,TSRL (talk) 21:00, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Having looked again at the photo, the cylinder axes clearly do not converge at the output shaft, as on a conventional V; this is telling us something, but what?TSRL (talk) 21:12, 23 March 2016 (UTC) There is another photo of a different (bigger) Chaise engine at an angle, which helps a bit; the first two cylinders seem to be almost in the same transverse plane. Maybe the cylinders are the corners of the "quincunx" for air-cooling, but what's at its centre?TSRL (talk) 21:34, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Pardon my stream of conciousness. This three page article has some very helpful diagrams and photos on pages 2 and 3. The two staggered Vs are well separated so air-cooling will be improved as the last article suggested. Still don't understand this "quinconcés" description but they also describe some radials in the same way. Staggered? Puzzled, certainly.TSRL (talk) 22:06, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Much to my surprise, "en quinconce" translates as staggered. So perhaps it was about cooling, inspired by the V-twin biker heritage. What are the implications for crankshaft vibration etc? Why did it not catch on?TSRL (talk) 22:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
So, for an aircraft article, is shallow angle inverted V-4 (which answers several questions) a reasonable description? V4s seem still to work on bikes. Which is where they came in ...TSRL (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Interesting engine. Benefits from the text seems to be a short length (as a VR6 engine) and better cooling than an inline engine. It's possible that the cylinder offset to the crankshaft is due to a Desaxe design (can't see it in the text though), the Yamaha MT-09 uses this feature. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:38, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Quincunx is an old (Roman) Latin term for "staggered". As opposed to Quincunx in medieval terms, which had come to mean cross-shaped (of 5 objects).
The Chaise was an interesting, although supposedly temperamental, engine. It was another solution to the old problem of "as much power as possible in the smallest space." This involved tricks like closely-set engine barrels (fine, unless you try to use all that power on takeoff and discover there's no cooling without airspeed), narrow angle Vs and most unusually but typically French, an undercut crankshaft.
You can work out the rest. Fresh from the factory it was expensive, but effective. Maintenance though was nightmare. A bottom end teardown in particular. Also the valve actuation was poor, with the rocker arm pillars and their unstable shafts getting a particularly bad reputation for getting out of order long before an overhaul was due. They were seen by English engine mechanics as a reason why the French should stick to cookery and by French pilots (I think St Ex. had some pithy comments) on the lines of "I'm not flying across Algeria with one of them".
Narrow angle vees BTW aren't too hard to balance, they're no worse than inlines. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks to your helpful comments, it's much clearer now. Cheers,TSRL (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Propelling nozzle[edit]

Hello all,

Something I read on the article Propelling nozzle worries me. The first bullet point of 'Principles of operation' says that nozzles work using the throat to increase pressure by constricting airflow - which runs contrary to the Venturi effect and what is described in this diagram illustrating de Laval nozzles. It also mentions that the nozzle 'back-pressures' the engine; sure it does, but by underexpanding the airflow, not by constricting it. I pointed it out on the talk page, but nobody got back to me. I contacted MilborneOne, but this apparently isn't his area of expertise.

Should I change it?

Regards, Hayazin (talk) 10:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

It is obviously wrong, so yes please do fix it. - Ahunt (talk) 21:27, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
It would good if you could include a suitable inline ref; several sections of the article, including this one, are distinctly short of such.TSRL (talk) 13:40, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Musée aéronautique et spatial Safran[edit]

A number of images taken at this museum have recently been uploaded to Commons, they are predominantly aero engines. There is a French wiki article and I was considering creating an English version, just wanted to check the naming convention. We seem to use the French version with an English translation in parentheses in the lead section. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:39, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

That will work fine! We should link the English name as a redirect as well. - Ahunt (talk) 15:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Good stuff, I see so many pages moved after creation which must be annoying for authors. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Article is now live at Musée aéronautique et spatial Safran. It's a fairly direct translation of the French article, the exhibit sections could be expanded with more engines and photos, the museum page says they have restored at least 85 piston engines so far. There is a translation tool but it didn't work for me (just refused to translate} so I did it manually. There are a lot more French aviation museums that the Av project has not covered yet, another winter job! Cheers.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 10:39, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for doing that. It could be a long winter! - Ahunt (talk) 13:38, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Ogden's book lists 282 museums, collection and monuments which should occupy you til the clock go forward!TSRL (talk) 14:05, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Yep! In the corresponding Commons category there are engine types on display that don't even appear in company navboxes so we have images but no info (yet). Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 13:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I was just looking at the wealth of photos there. User:Duch sure took a lot of great photos! - Ahunt (talk) 13:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
He did, and thankfully took care to identify them. I've been going through other images over there and there are plenty with no articles.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 13:54, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I gave him some WikiWings for his great efforts! - Ahunt (talk) 14:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
The name seems to have changed since 2009, when Ogden's book was published; he has it as Musée Société Nationale d'Étude et de Construction de Moteurs d'Aviation. Not snappy!TSRL (talk) 14:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Tres bon! Is that 282 French museums or worldwide? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:23, 25 October 2016 (UT
That name spells SNECMA who were the original museum creators. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
So it does. All 282 entries are French - bon appetite!TSRL (talk) 14:34, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Oh dear, we're not doing well with only three covered!. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm always surprised how difficult it can be to find out a museum's content from their website. Given that there is a fair amount of exhibit churn, Ogden's book (2009) really needs updating. One good but unstructured source is Air Britain News - useful if you're a member but in that case you'll know that anyway! At least they are fairly up-to-date.TSRL (talk) 15:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Sadly, neither of these cover engines. I see the French are ahead of us: they have 13 French museum articles.TSRL (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

There was a European version of the 'Wrecks and relics' book but I don't think it has been published for a long time, probably wouldn't have included engines anyway. Hey ho! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 16:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)