Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft/Engines

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Chaise engines[edit]

Is there a piston expert out there who could help me understand the point of the Chaise layout? It seems to have been basically an inverted 4 cylinder air-cooled motor but (probably, I've only found a head-on photo so far) with alternate cylinders forming a shallow V. French contemporary sources refer to it as "quinconcés", which I read as quincunxed; must refer to the crankshaft, I guess. But why this unusual layout? Balancing? Does it relate to Chaise engines previous main applications, motorbikes and cars? Cheers,TSRL (talk) 21:00, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Having looked again at the photo, the cylinder axes clearly do not converge at the output shaft, as on a conventional V; this is telling us something, but what?TSRL (talk) 21:12, 23 March 2016 (UTC) There is another photo of a different (bigger) Chaise engine at an angle, which helps a bit; the first two cylinders seem to be almost in the same transverse plane. Maybe the cylinders are the corners of the "quincunx" for air-cooling, but what's at its centre?TSRL (talk) 21:34, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Pardon my stream of conciousness. This three page article has some very helpful diagrams and photos on pages 2 and 3. The two staggered Vs are well separated so air-cooling will be improved as the last article suggested. Still don't understand this "quinconcés" description but they also describe some radials in the same way. Staggered? Puzzled, certainly.TSRL (talk) 22:06, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Much to my surprise, "en quinconce" translates as staggered. So perhaps it was about cooling, inspired by the V-twin biker heritage. What are the implications for crankshaft vibration etc? Why did it not catch on?TSRL (talk) 22:57, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
So, for an aircraft article, is shallow angle inverted V-4 (which answers several questions) a reasonable description? V4s seem still to work on bikes. Which is where they came in ...TSRL (talk) 23:32, 23 March 2016 (UTC)
Interesting engine. Benefits from the text seems to be a short length (as a VR6 engine) and better cooling than an inline engine. It's possible that the cylinder offset to the crankshaft is due to a Desaxe design (can't see it in the text though), the Yamaha MT-09 uses this feature. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:38, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Quincunx is an old (Roman) Latin term for "staggered". As opposed to Quincunx in medieval terms, which had come to mean cross-shaped (of 5 objects).
The Chaise was an interesting, although supposedly temperamental, engine. It was another solution to the old problem of "as much power as possible in the smallest space." This involved tricks like closely-set engine barrels (fine, unless you try to use all that power on takeoff and discover there's no cooling without airspeed), narrow angle Vs and most unusually but typically French, an undercut crankshaft.
You can work out the rest. Fresh from the factory it was expensive, but effective. Maintenance though was nightmare. A bottom end teardown in particular. Also the valve actuation was poor, with the rocker arm pillars and their unstable shafts getting a particularly bad reputation for getting out of order long before an overhaul was due. They were seen by English engine mechanics as a reason why the French should stick to cookery and by French pilots (I think St Ex. had some pithy comments) on the lines of "I'm not flying across Algeria with one of them".
Narrow angle vees BTW aren't too hard to balance, they're no worse than inlines. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:03, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks to your helpful comments, it's much clearer now. Cheers,TSRL (talk) 15:49, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

Propelling nozzle[edit]

Hello all,

Something I read on the article Propelling nozzle worries me. The first bullet point of 'Principles of operation' says that nozzles work using the throat to increase pressure by constricting airflow - which runs contrary to the Venturi effect and what is described in this diagram illustrating de Laval nozzles. It also mentions that the nozzle 'back-pressures' the engine; sure it does, but by underexpanding the airflow, not by constricting it. I pointed it out on the talk page, but nobody got back to me. I contacted MilborneOne, but this apparently isn't his area of expertise.

Should I change it?

Regards, Hayazin (talk) 10:07, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

It is obviously wrong, so yes please do fix it. - Ahunt (talk) 21:27, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
It would good if you could include a suitable inline ref; several sections of the article, including this one, are distinctly short of such.TSRL (talk) 13:40, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Musée aéronautique et spatial Safran[edit]

A number of images taken at this museum have recently been uploaded to Commons, they are predominantly aero engines. There is a French wiki article and I was considering creating an English version, just wanted to check the naming convention. We seem to use the French version with an English translation in parentheses in the lead section. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:39, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

That will work fine! We should link the English name as a redirect as well. - Ahunt (talk) 15:27, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Good stuff, I see so many pages moved after creation which must be annoying for authors. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 17:10, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
Article is now live at Musée aéronautique et spatial Safran. It's a fairly direct translation of the French article, the exhibit sections could be expanded with more engines and photos, the museum page says they have restored at least 85 piston engines so far. There is a translation tool but it didn't work for me (just refused to translate} so I did it manually. There are a lot more French aviation museums that the Av project has not covered yet, another winter job! Cheers.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 10:39, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for doing that. It could be a long winter! - Ahunt (talk) 13:38, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Ogden's book lists 282 museums, collection and monuments which should occupy you til the clock go forward!TSRL (talk) 14:05, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Yep! In the corresponding Commons category there are engine types on display that don't even appear in company navboxes so we have images but no info (yet). Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 13:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I was just looking at the wealth of photos there. User:Duch sure took a lot of great photos! - Ahunt (talk) 13:46, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
He did, and thankfully took care to identify them. I've been going through other images over there and there are plenty with no articles.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 13:54, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I gave him some WikiWings for his great efforts! - Ahunt (talk) 14:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
The name seems to have changed since 2009, when Ogden's book was published; he has it as Musée Société Nationale d'Étude et de Construction de Moteurs d'Aviation. Not snappy!TSRL (talk) 14:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Tres bon! Is that 282 French museums or worldwide? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:23, 25 October 2016 (UT
That name spells SNECMA who were the original museum creators. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
So it does. All 282 entries are French - bon appetite!TSRL (talk) 14:34, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
Oh dear, we're not doing well with only three covered!. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:43, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm always surprised how difficult it can be to find out a museum's content from their website. Given that there is a fair amount of exhibit churn, Ogden's book (2009) really needs updating. One good but unstructured source is Air Britain News - useful if you're a member but in that case you'll know that anyway! At least they are fairly up-to-date.TSRL (talk) 15:40, 25 October 2016 (UTC) Sadly, neither of these cover engines. I see the French are ahead of us: they have 13 French museum articles.TSRL (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

There was a European version of the 'Wrecks and relics' book but I don't think it has been published for a long time, probably wouldn't have included engines anyway. Hey ho! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 16:36, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Rolls-Royce red links[edit]

I've recently acquired a fairly rare book by Bill Gunston chronicling all the Rolls-Royce aero engines up to 1989. Our navbox has a few red links and these types are covered in the book, albeit only briefly. I think there are types in the navbox that are not covered by the book. They all appear to be design studies or possibly bench run engines only.

The question is how best to cover them here? Some unbuilt types get a mention in their related engine article but the remaining ones don't relate to built engines. So...they could have their own stub articles that would probably get Afd'd for notability or they could be grouped together in a section in an overview article that we don't yet have (that would be Rolls-Royce aircraft gas turbine engines). We already have Rolls-Royce aircraft piston engines.

Would appreciate any thoughts. Related is the fact that Spirito Mario Viale was an RR engine designer (led the Pennine team) and he should be added to the navbox if there are no objections. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:14, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

If Spirito Mario Viale was a RR designer then he should be added! As far as the not-built projects go, I would suggest a single article on all of them together, just for sake of completeness. - Ahunt (talk) 14:20, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps a List of Rolls-Royce aircraft engines that could give a brief overview of each and deal with the unbuilt projects. MilborneOne (talk) 16:10, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
We already have the main engine list, not sure if a separate list for RR would count as 'listcruft', there was a trimming of various engine lists a few years ago. A single article would work but what to call it? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 18:25, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
I was thinking more thank a simple list perhaps something more like Rolls-Royce aero-engine development rather than use the "List". MilborneOne (talk) 19:09, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, a list in prose form. There must be similar situations with unbuilt aircraft designs but I've not seen a single article covering multiple types (from the same manufacturer). They often have their own article which seems to indicate that unbuilt aircraft types are more notable than engine types. I'm sure the answer will come, in the meantime I could put something together in a sandbox. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 21:23, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Here is one I did a few years back that is similar, dealing with a group of designs by a single manufacturer that were not built: Schweizer cargo glider designs - Ahunt (talk) 21:46, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I can't see an easy way round this, was erring toward an overview article but because of the timeframe (1945-1970) that would involve an even longer title (Rolls-Royce Limited aircraft gas turbine engines). Will perhaps create a couple of stubs and see if they survive. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:33, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report[edit]

We – Community Tech – are happy to announce that the Popular pages bot is back up-and-running (after a one year hiatus)! You're receiving this message because your WikiProject or task force is signed up to receive the popular pages report. Every month, Community Tech bot will post at Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Engines/Popular pages with a list of the most-viewed pages over the previous month that are within the scope of WikiProject Aircraft.

We've made some enhancements to the original report. Here's what's new:

  • The pageview data includes both desktop and mobile data.
  • The report will include a link to the pageviews tool for each article, to dig deeper into any surprises or anomalies.
  • The report will include the total pageviews for the entire project (including redirects).

We're grateful to Mr.Z-man for his original Mr.Z-bot, and we wish his bot a happy robot retirement. Just as before, we hope the popular pages reports will aid you in understanding the reach of WikiProject Aircraft, and what articles may be deserving of more attention. If you have any questions or concerns please contact us at m:User talk:Community Tech bot.

Warm regards, the Community Tech Team 17:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Salmson 9U[edit]

Anyone know anything about this engine, possibly water-cooled? It appears in the Anatra DS article without much cite support and it's not in the water-cooled Salmson article explicitly.TSRL (talk) The table in the Salmson water-cooled engine article suggests it may have been the 9R.TSRL (talk) 20:05, 29 May 2017 (UTC)