Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

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WikiProject Albums (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Genres and User-Contributed Sources[edit]

Considering the nature of multiple opinions for genres combining into a single solution in many user-contributed sources for genres (such as RateYourMusic), why are they considered an "unreliable" source while newspapers featuring a single opinion from a so-called professional are?--F-22 RaptörAces High 18:52, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Subjective or not, all sources must follow WP:RS and not violate WP:USERG. Sergecross73 msg me 22:46, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
That doesn't answer my concern at all.--F-22 RaptörAces High 17:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
You'll have to rephrase your question then. It looked like you were asking why were couldn't use user generated content to source something subjective like genre, in which the answer would be, because Wikipedia's very definition of "reliable" says that it can't be user-generated unless it comes from an expert of sorts. (And when they say expert, they mean someone on the level of like Gene Siskel, not a random guy who signed up for a Last FM account last week.) Sergecross73 msg me 17:06, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
The opinions are collective, it's not just one opinion, otherwise, it would be just as reliable as the sources this silly website considers "reliable." I'm not referring to a random person's blog here. In this case, subjectivity and objectivity DOES make a difference and Wikipedia's rules should reflect such. You'd be surprised how many people who express some passion in music favor getting their information through sites like RateYourMusic over Wikipedia, because they ironically don't consider Wikipedia reliable for the very reason we're discussing now.--F-22 RaptörAces High 17:20, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if its one user-generated voice or a hundred of them, they still violate WP:USERG. It's fundamentally outside of the scope of what Wikipedia cites or covers. Reviews are equally subjective, yet we don't cite user-reviews on places like MetaCritic either. If people want to know what the "general population" or "fans" thought, then then there's an endless availability of user reviews, blogs, social media sites, messageboards, comment sections, etc = that they can check out. But we don't document that. Sergecross73 msg me 18:20, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
You're just pointing me to rules. You're not telling me WHY this is a rule. I'm not interested in talking about reviews considering reviews are absolutely meaningless to me. At least reviews are presented in a subjective manner on Wikipedia. That's not the case for genres.--F-22 RaptörAces High 18:28, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Many of the reasons are listed at the policies I've listed, but beyond that, a major reason is because it'd be too easy to "play the system to get your way" if we allowed for these sorts of sources. An example: Let's say I'm a crazy person who thinks Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit", to my ears, sounds like East Coast Hip Hop. With the current system, if someone told me to find a source, I'd be out of luck, period. Now, if we allowed for user-generated content, I could go off-wiki, create five accounts elsewhere, and create entries that say that, and then go "Look! Look! Multiple sources say its true! Time to include it!". Now, obviously that particular example isn't likely, but sub in "a generic metal band" and "20 different metal denominations" and you can see how it would happen all over the place. Sergecross73 msg me 18:38, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

You truly underestimate user-contributed sources. If you had gone to any Nirvana album over at RateYourMusic voting in East-Coast Hip-Hop, not only would you quickly get voted against, but there's a report feature that when reviewed, you wouldn't be allowed to vote genres ever again there. RateYourMusic also has a strict line dealing with multiple accounts, that you would end up losing all of them if the abuse is obvious. RateYourMusic trusts its users that you can classify artists by influences or "secondary genres." Some of the people I meant over there, elaborate on pitches, moods, undertones of music that in my opinion, have knowledge of music far superior to that of any mainstream music critic out there. I assure you that after spending time there, I found much less inaccuracies there than Wikipedia and I think many people outside Wikipedia would agree with me. Even sites like Encyclopaedia Metallum have a serious and motivated nature towards music despite being user-contributed.

As for your comment on the denominations of metal, that's where subjectivity truly is subjectivity. I consider Kamelot mainly a power metal band. Some people consider them progressive metal but I'm not going to flip off the handle over that because I acknowledge that Kamelot DOES have certain progressive elements. However, I completely trust that no band is going to be classified under 20 metal subgenres, but if it ever comes to this, what is hard to just simply call them a metal band? Frank Zappa's music is all over the place. He plays psychedelic rock, progressive rock, jam rock, jazz-fusion, but he's simply called a rock musician or even just a composer (even on Wikipedia). Even his genre table isn't cluttered with subgenre after subgenre.--F-22 RaptörAces High 23:29, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

This is why your system is broken, because you use multiple subgenres to describe music within a display that seems like it's presented in such a factual way, to the point it gets debated, but your dumb bureaucratic rules doesn't allow for that flexibility because a commoner's opinions are irrelevant DESPITE genres having a sensitive nature in subjectivity. It doesn't matter if it's 5 opinions, 50 opinions, because the music critic is always right. Right? In this case, is it so hard to just use less subjective, base genres to describe musicians? Just call Lady Gaga a pop artist, Paramore a rock band, but no, you have to call Paramore emo just because some bullshit critic said so.--F-22 RaptörAces High 23:38, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, you've got 2 choices. Either go much higher up in the Wikipedia system to gather a consensus to rewrite the core principles of the entire website. Or follow the current rules. No amount of this sort of ranting is going to lead to what you want, because it isn't remotely rooted in policy, and we don't create/change policy on a Wikiproject-level. Sergecross73 msg me 02:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
So then why should I abide to your rules if you can't justify them?--F-22 RaptörAces High 16:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Your whole premise is flawed. It's like asking "Why don't we play basketball with a baseball? It'd be easier to dunk!" It doesn't matter if it's easier, it would cease to be the sport of basketball anymore. Same thing here: Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say. That's experts and critics, not randos on the Internet. Also, if you knowingly break policy, you'll be blocked. So, you've got 2 reasons. Sergecross73 msg me 18:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
No, your whole premise is flawed. You've made one attempt at an argument against my logic, and I counter-argued against it. The rest of the time you simply referred me to rules. I don't understand what your sport analogy has to do with anything either. Go ahead and block me, it seems that's all you people really care about in the end.--F-22 RaptörAces High 19:43, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
No, I gave you one hypothetical example of how people abuse the system with user-generated sources, and you responded with a naive generalization about how you felt they wouldn't, which is silly, because I've seen people try to do it first hand. Maybe you need to spend more time around here, so you can see how dishonest editors will try every trick in the book to push their point of view? Then maybe you'll learn why we chose to use the type of sources that can't be altered or directly changed. Sergecross73 msg me 19:49, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

But it's okay if critics push their opinion, despite how way off they are. Ooookay.--F-22 RaptörAces High 19:52, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

If we adhere to WP:RS and WP:NPOV, yes. (Keeping in mind, we're talking about genre, where it's something that's subjective and usually more in a gray area than an objectively right/wrong one. Genre is rarely as objectively wrong as citing someone saying "1+1=3".) Sergecross73 msg me 20:09, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
F-22 Raptored Yes, it's okay if critics push their opinions. That's what critics are supposed to do. The reason that we have policies such as adherence to reliable sources is so that we can determine what is worth including on Wikipedia and what is not. I could go outside and make some observations about nature and type those up on my blog. But if I then tried to use that to support nature-related content on Wikipedia, I'd have those edits reverted. However, if I published those findings through a peer-reviewed journal, I might be able to put that on Wikipedia, if it improved the article. The same thing with music-related articles. The point of having reliable sources is that, except for the rare cases where we are citing an expert (such as Gene Siskel or Robert Christgau directly, it isn't just one person's opinion being cited. That one person had to have their content checked for accuracy by an editor and/or publisher. Generally, the more eyes that check over the content before it's published, and the greater the reputation that the publication holds for accuracy and informed opinion, the more reliable that source is considered. I understand that some user-generated websites, such as Encyclopedia Metallum, have a form of editorial control, but there is no clear way to filter out the content and no way to establish the credentials of a contributor.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:16, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I have no interest in discussing this any further. I'm stating why I think my point of view is viable and why I think Wikipedia's bureaucratic way of prioritizing data is currently broken.--F-22 RaptörAces High 01:14, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Pretty Much Amazing[edit]

Need a quick opinion on the reliablity of this source that I've seen added recently: [1] It appears to be a blog from their about page that has got some media press, but I'm not sure if we should count it as a reliable source. Thoughts? Andrzejbanas (talk) 16:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Unreliable - Their "about us" page just describes them as self-proclaimed music nerds, there's really no credentials given for any of the writers, nor do they seem to have any sort of editorial policy (other than, no illegal mp3s.) While it's impressive that some high level sources have said nice things about them, it really would go more towards their notability than their reliability. To me, it looks like yet another blog that probably would fail WP:RS and WP:USERG. Sergecross73 msg me 13:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  • just because their editorial policy isn't listed doesn't mean there isn't one...i'm not sure about this one, but it does list editorial staff. the site is also, or was at some point, a partner of and operated by Spin Media. it appears that it's still a Spin property, just no longer listed on the current site. but, i think that gives them some more credibility than their about page would suggest they have. Boomur [] 16:43, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  • There' awful lot of "ifs and maybes" in that reasoning. I'd be swayed if some of this could be proven, but in my experience, usually if websites/publications/writers have policies/corporate associations/credentials, they're pretty upfront about it, for, you know, credibility. All I see is a bunch of self-professed fans (more or less their words, not mine) which is more like every other non-notable amateur blog out there... Sergecross73 msg me 17:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Sergecross, i appreciate your critiques, but i don't actually think there are many "maybes" here; just whether or not PMA continues to be operated by Spin, but even then i don't think that's much of a maybe. just because they aren't "upfront" about it doesn't diminish the validity of the association; likewise, i've never seen a source rejected for not listing its editorial policies on its website. on top of that, i do think that positive attention from mainstream media contributes to PMA's reliability; it's not just that they are referring to the site as an entity that exists or has influence (notability), they are expressing agreement with its general attitudes about music and style (to me, that represents some degree of reliability). all that said, i'm not convinced about the credibility of this source for other reasons. chiefly, i can't find any publications outside the site by any of the authors (or the editor). this isn't completely a red X for me, and they could still have backgrounds in music journalism (i only did some cursory searches) but it does raise a few questions. Boomur [] 18:56, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
The "maybe's" I was referring to was:
  1. Do their writers have any sort of credentials? (Seems like no.)
  2. Do they have an editorial policy? (Seems like no, or it'd readily available. I know this is considered an important element at the Video Game Wikiproject source evaluation page equivalent. Looking at their talk page, editorial policy being present is brought up as a point of contention over 5 separate source evaluations, and that's not even looking into the 11 pages of talk page archives.
  3. Are they still connected to Spin Media? (If they were, this should also be easily found on their website.) Sergecross73 msg me 19:28, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
I looked for prior music critic experience by the staff members and found nothing. Binksternet (talk) 06:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
They are used for Metacritic aggregates, so there must be some reliability surely? CoolMarc 06:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
I noticed that, however does Metacritic have any standards that are spoken of what constitutes their critic choices? Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:11, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
Using WikiProject Video Games as an example again, there's a lot of overlap over what Wikipedia and Metacritic deems usable sources (80% if I had to take a stab at it?) but there's still some sources that don't meet our guidelines, and some that don't meet theirs. I don't actually know their standards, just that there are similarities, but the overlap itself isn't necessarily enough to just deem one reliable or anything... Sergecross73 msg me 13:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The NOW/Fact/Kerrang! symbols thing again[edit]

@Earthh:@Nerdtrap: Re this, this and this. We discussed the issue with Dustblower, in fact, a while back. I know there was some talk then about standardising all, but regardless of that, DB did concede that the disc symbols he introduced should go. Not long after that PopMatters (another source we discussed) changed their ratings from discs to stars, a redesign that affected all of the site's previous reviews also, which took away part of the problem, I guess. Anyway, it would appear that yes, the alternative/disc symbols should go, but rather than stars, they should now have numerals. JG66 (talk) 14:13, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, they all mean the same thing, so the visual representations should be consistent. Just make all of them be stars or something. (That's what I most consistently see across the website at least.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:27, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. Apologies for the previous revert- given how long the ratings had been in place it seemed like an agreement had been reached.--Nerdtrap (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Absolutely – no worries. Truth be told, one of us should have acted on that earlier outcome. JG66 (talk) 14:43, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Music of Heroes[edit]

I proposed a merger of two articles. Comment there. --George Ho (talk) 04:49, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Graal (album)[edit]

Hi. Does anybody mind checking grammar in this article I created? (Graal (album)). I'm not a native speaker and I'm afraid that I might've made some mistakes Tashi Talk to me 18:47, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done@Tashi: I've gone through the grammar, but there are some issues with citations and the reliability of sources that you may want to check. For instance, you have used Discogs as a reference for the personnel involved on the album. Discogs is discouraged on Wikipedia as it is user-generated content: it would be better if you could check that this information matches the information on the notes in the CD book, and then say "Credits adapted from liner notes", for example. Richard3120 (talk) 22:32, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. As I see you there wasn't much grammar mistakes, which makes me glad. I don't need to check it whether the information match because I adapted them from the booklet to Discogs. Thank you for your help. Tashi Talk to me 10:54, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
No problem – I just thought I would mention it because it is difficult for us who do not speak Polish or who are unfamiliar with the sources to know how reliable they are. But that's an issue for another day. Richard3120 (talk) 16:33, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Albums by certification[edit]

The Category:Albums by gold certification, and related subcategories, have been nominated for deletion. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for discussion page. --StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 01:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)