Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Albums (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Albums, an attempt at building a useful resource on recordings from a variety of genres. If you would like to participate, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
 Project  This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 

Sputnik reviews[edit]

When we say "staff" reviews are acceptable for Sputnikmusic, does that include reviews credited to a "contributor"? Say, this one for Beatles' for Sale – but not of course this one, which is credited to a "user". I'm not too familiar with the site's reviews; can't say I'm too impressed with them either, but never mind … Thanks, JG66 (talk) 16:09, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

@JG66: - Hi. On the wikipedia page it gives a little more info on the difference between contributor and user; Sputnikmusic#Reviewer_stratification.

Contributing Reviewers can contribute features, but are not eligible for inclusion by either Metacritic or Wikipedia, yet are acknowledged as being writers who generate content of a passable quality. There are currently 23 contributing reviewers.[6]

-- I'm going to guess no, since their reviews aren't eligible for inclusion by MC. --Jennica / talk 23:19, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
@Jennica: Ah, thanks for that. I wonder if we should clarify the difference on the Sources page – actually state that "contributors" are no-go. Because, currently it's only "users" that are explicitly barred, which is why I thought: contributor = staff. JG66 (talk) 23:57, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I agree. They're basically a "featured blogger" type status. They're prolific/preferred user-reviewers, but still user-reviewers. I'd stick to just Staff and Emeritus reviews. Sergecross73 msg me 00:04, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
@JG66: The Sources list already says to only use staff and emeritus reviews.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 03:26, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Oh sure, but my point was that, for someone like me who doesn't have much experience with the site, it might be an idea to clarify the situation. We've long stated that user reviews are unreliable and that staff and emeritus reviews are good, without mentioning "contributors"; plus, it's not clear whether "staff" is our generic wording (and therefore might include contributors) or a designation applied by Sputnik itself. You've just added something in the Sources list, so it's fine now. JG66 (talk) 04:01, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Indeed, it is good to add the distinction, as "contributors" are frequently acceptable on other websites. (Elsewhere, contributor may mean more like "freelance writer/journalist", which would be more likely to be generally considered acceptable.) Sergecross73 msg me 12:48, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Agreed, which is why I implemented the change.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:53, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

drummer credit incorrect[edit]

Ian Thomas cited on DVD. There's a white man doing the drums on the video. The drummer link shows a different name and color — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2D80:4036:89F5:E9EE:5D12:8259:20A8 (talk) 04:34, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Er…hm? Liam Gibson (talk) 20:58, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

"Sources to avoid" section[edit]

In the "Sources to avoid" section, I noticed this sentence: "AllMusic's genre sidebar should be avoided."

There should be at least one exception to this. The following sentence should be included: "An exception to this is if there are no other reliable sources mentioning a song's genre." Who agrees with this?

The reason why i'm saying this is because I added the genre of the song "Tubthumping" and AllMusic stated it is a pop rock song. A day later, Synthwave.94 undid my edit stating that the AllMusic sidebars are unreliable. I disagreed with him because I believe that AllMusic is a reliable source for anything related to music. DBZFan30 (talk) 02:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

No. In general, "a bad source is better than no source" is not a theory Wikipedia generally operates under. Sergecross73 msg me 03:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Agree. The sidebar is not generated by a human. Walter Görlitz (talk) 03:59, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The band is described as pop and dance anyway, and there's no reason, in the sources, to assume that this song isn't that style, so we don't even need the AllMusic source.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Just use this quote from the AllMusic review of the album: "The difference between Tubthumper and the rest of Chumbawamba's catalog lay in "Tubthumping," a giddily infectious blend of big dance beats, pop hooks, and football chants."--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:45, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Is there any evidence that AllMusic's sidebar is not generated by human? I thought the reason we generally avoided citing that was because of all the arbitrary genres they list. With that said, I would agree with using it as last resort, like if absolutely nothing else can be found. Kokoro20 (talk) 00:55, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure either way on that aspect of it. The general objection (mine included) has always been that it seems to work much like how retail stores classify their music, where they classify in very broad strokes. For example, classifying the work of a band like Slipknot as "pop/rock" more because they are a "rock act that is popular" rather than because they're a pop rock band. Sergecross73 msg me 12:30, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, just about every rock or pop artist is tagged under "pop/rock" under the "Genre" section. But what I was referring to was the "Styles" section, which lists more specific genres. Kokoro20 (talk) 14:44, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
http://www.allmusic.com/faq/topic/wronggenre There are other FAQs. It's clear that the genres and styles are not gleaned from the prose as written by authors. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, that shows that, not only is it not from the authors, its not really from Allmusic at all... Sergecross73 msg me
Oh, I see now. I guess we really should avoid using that then. Kokoro20 (talk) 23:44, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I was referring to the sidebar as a whole, I just chose that example as a general one that most could understand the issue, regardless of their knowledge of music. I don't know how any of the sidebars are generated, but they frequently contain errors. (I mean, look at my example above. It lists the album's run-time as over two hours, a physical impossibility for a single album.) It doesn't exactly inspire confidence that they have a "submit corrections" link on the sidebar either. Sergecross73 msg me 14:58, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree with allowing Wikipedia to accept the sidebar for more than just songs, albums and artists as if we're using the worded text for a review for genres surely the sidebar should count too? --Masheenya (talk) 07:27, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Have you actually read the discussion? Because multiple reasons have been given as to why the sidebars aren't used, including the fact that they don't come from AllMusic, nor does AllMusic even maintain them, (they even say "hey, don't contact us about them") and there's been many instances of genre inaccuracies and basic errors in them as well. An argument like "well why not" makes zero sense here. Sergecross73 msg me 12:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm sure it's not as bad as that; on some of their reviews, like Let It Be Roberta: Roberta Flack Sings the Beatles, it's genre was originally for a while just R&B then a few months back it's now: Pop/Rock and R&B
So someone has to have changed it for it to reflect that; it's not like someone off the street has done it.--Masheenya (talk) 19:46, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes. Someone made a suggestion. Who? We don't know. Then the company that maintains that information had to make the change to the data. How that process is controlled, we don't know. But ultimately, if you had read the linked FAQ you would have seen that it's not done by the reviewers (at the album level). The style (at the artist level) is not an aggregation of individual albums or anything like that. The simple fact that anyone can suggest a genre and we don't know the process for acceptance of the change requests is the problem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:05, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I don't see why the genre being altered, without explanation, over time, is somehow supposed to increase confidence in the system. The fact that information is published with errors, and fixed later without note, is not the trait of a reliable source on Wikipedia. Also, Walter and I directly linked to actual, real issues and situations, so a "it can't be that bad" stance doesn't really do a good job of countering that. Sergecross73 msg me 20:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Good topic nomination: Me Estoy Enamorando (album)[edit]

I have nominated Me Estoy Enamorando (album) as a Good topic candidate. I'd appreciate the feedback! Erick (talk) 02:25, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

2010s in music[edit]

I know this is only somewhat related to WP:ALBUMS, but we're more active here than most of the other music-related WikiProjects, so I thought I'd say something here too.

2010s in music is atrociously bad. Mostly unsourced original research and giant paragraphs of excessive example bloat. I mean, I get it, it's rather overwhelming scope - covering an entire decades worth of music as it develops. Its one of the reasons I'm having a hard time even finding a place to begin on cleaning it up. Honestly, I'd WP:TNT it, but the prospect of writing it from scratch is too overwhelming as well.

Anyways, my question is, is anyone aware of an article like this done right, as a goal to work towards? I've found some that are marginally better, but still largely unsourced and unfocused. Thoughts? Sergecross73 msg me 19:01, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

"Various artists" vs "various artists"[edit]

When it comes to compilations done by various artists, what should the correct capitalization be in the infobox? "Various artists", "Various Artists", or "various artists". I looked through a few hip hop and punk compilations and they were all formatted "Various Artists". --Jennica / talk 23:11, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

@Jennica: "Various artists" should be the correct capitalization. DBZFan30 (talk) 23:23, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
It's never "Various Artists" For infoboxes or the start of a sentence, use "Various artists". In tables, and mid-sentence use "various artists". Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:42, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
@Walter Görlitz: – Wouldn't "Studio album by various artists" be acceptable in an infobox as well? It's not like it's a proper noun. Carbrera (talk) 02:33, 28 April 2017 (UTC).
IF that's how it appears, yes that's perfect. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:50, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
Ugh. It's all so inconsistent. --Jennica / talk 02:56, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm sure "Various Artists" is the most common usage on Wikipedia, but "various artists" would be the correct use of the artist field within the infobox for such cases, but the chronology parameter needs to be utilized in some fashion (if there is a listed chronology in the infobox) or else it will appear as "various artists chronology", mainly because it's not a chronology for various artists but also it looks odd without the initial capitalization. --StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me 15:25, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Should self-tilted be used in the lede?[edit]

An editor has opened an RfC at Talk:Jars of Clay (album)#RfC: "Self-titled". Please discuss there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:03, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Multiple chronologies?[edit]

Hey guys, I noticed recently that a few album articles have more than one chronology (showing previous and following albums). An example is the ELO articles. Apparently, they're used to differentiate between studio, live and compilation albums, and they're usually sorted as the main chronology and the studio album chronology. Only about 5% of album articles have more than one, I'd estimate. Also, by my reasoning, only one is really necessary, that being the main chronology. The reason is that this list contains all of the albums, thus being more representative of the band's discography. Secondly, more than one chronology can appear messy and misleading. Also, if a reader really feels the need to find seperate lists of studio, live and compilation albums, he can easily access the artist's discography article, which is also much easier at a glance. Granted, more than one chronology may be necessary for a collaborative album, or for an artist for different releases in different countries (i.e. The Beatles), but are they really necessary elsewhere? Best, Liam Gibson (talk) 19:35, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

"Welcome to My Hood" was pointed out in recent discussion, with a comment about the need for a discussion about limiting the use of extra chronologies. WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE includes: "the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article ... The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance ... wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content." Most of the information in these extended chronologies are not key facts. WP:LAYIM also includes: "Images should ideally be spread evenly within the article, and relevant to the sections they are located in ... When placing images, be careful not to stack too many of them within the lead, or within a single section; if the images in a section spill over into the next section at 1024×768 screen resolution, that may mean that the section is too short or there are too many images in that section." Some of the ELO album infoboxes stretch down into three or four sections. A WP:RFC might achieve a consensus on the matter (also of interest to the songs project). —Ojorojo (talk) 20:42, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I put one up on Talk:Alone in the Universe. Best, Liam Gibson (talk) 21:13, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
A chronology is a linear timeline from a beginning point to an end point. There should not be any branches that lead to dead ends, forcing the reader to backtrack to get back to the timeline. Of course, pointlessly classifying albums as "studio," "live" or "compilation" gives certain editors who otherwise have nothing to contribute something to do. Piriczki (talk) 11:41, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Clarification re MetroLyrics[edit]

Just want to check: we say under Sources to avoid that "Only the songwriter credits [at MetroLyrics] are unreliable", but when/if those credits are correct, is it still a source to avoid? I've added an external link in a new song article, How the Web Was Woven, since the site's information for the song is correct and the page carries the LyricFind symbol. Thinking about it now, though, perhaps that was wrong of me (even if it's right, so to speak …) – are we deeming the site to be an unreliable source, full stop/period? It's that "Only the songwriter credits …" qualification that throws me. JG66 (talk) 05:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

An external link for the lyrics only should be OK if the correct songwriters are shown. The wording came out of the External links noticeboard discussion. The accuracy of its lyrics was not discussed, so these (with the LF logo) were not deemed to be unreliable. Maybe the wording could be improved: "Songwriter credits are unreliable; lyrics with LF logo are acceptable (see also WP:SONG#LYRICS)". (BTW, ISWC[1] T-010.484.933-3 shows two different Woven writers – "HAYES DAVID STEPHEN, WESTLAKE GERALD CLIVE" (with Presley as performer) and MOST DAVID, WESTLAKE CLIVE (no performer listed)). —Ojorojo (talk) 15:21, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Thanks – and yes, that revised wording could be useful. Regarding the ISWC, the original credits I've seen for both versions of the song list the writers as Westlake–Most, and that's the credit that appears also on a recent reissue of Presley's That's the Way It Is album. Hayes was Most's original surname (as for brother Mickie), but I'm confused why it's suddenly been adopted for his songwriting. JG66 (talk) 16:45, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Another merger discussion at WT:SONGS[edit]

The merger proposal on {{infobox song}} and {{infobox album}} is discussed at "Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs#RfC: Should Infobox song and Infobox album be merged?", where I invite you to comment. --George Ho (talk) 17:54, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

A "question" on a part?[edit]

(In the first few sentences might sound off topic.)

Yeah? So? if I look at a page err article. That has a list of a set of songs? Which is bundled for every some songs into an album. But it's before something like '1a' this or '1b' this?
Then the song, err? Album listed 'part' is placed/applied right after that? In a new category below it. as to '2' this?
And? If I happen to come across an article? If it looks like? 'example' say 1? (when looking down of the page or 'sandbox...') Then if later, the info table is down like to 30? And, the table part would take up some room. As the info part err 'box?' to the song/ album would be filled in too?
Then, does the 'note' goes before the "song/ album" part? Or after? say 2? And every whatever, of some cited source(s)... in both parts. So? The question is? Does the 'note' goes last? or? Before the infobox, with the 'song/ album?' Tainted-wingsz (talk) 02:41, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

Popular pages report[edit]

We – Community Tech – are happy to announce that the Popular pages bot is back up-and-running (after a one year hiatus)! You're receiving this message because your WikiProject or task force is signed up to receive the popular pages report. Every month, Community Tech bot will post at Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Popular pages with a list of the most-viewed pages over the previous month that are within the scope of WikiProject Albums.

We've made some enhancements to the original report. Here's what's new:

  • The pageview data includes both desktop and mobile data.
  • The report will include a link to the pageviews tool for each article, to dig deeper into any surprises or anomalies.
  • The report will include the total pageviews for the entire project (including redirects).

We're grateful to Mr.Z-man for his original Mr.Z-bot, and we wish his bot a happy robot retirement. Just as before, we hope the popular pages reports will aid you in understanding the reach of WikiProject Albums, and what articles may be deserving of more attention. If you have any questions or concerns please contact us at m:User talk:Community Tech bot.

Warm regards, the Community Tech Team 17:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Readers poll vs. critics poll[edit]

An IP editor insists on adding rankings on a BBC readers poll of "most overrated albums" to album pages. I don't see the merit of an uncontrolled readers poll, and the IP editor disagrees. Please join the discussion here and weigh in. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talkcontributions) 02:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

If it's clearly listed as a reader poll, and it has a source, what's the harm? It's already fluff. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:35, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
The harm is that the journalistic controls/standards in place for critic rankings/polls almost certainly do not exist for a readers poll. How do you guarantee anyone who voted in a readers poll of "most overrated album" actually listened to a single album, instead of just voting for the artist they find most annoying? How do you guarantee that people didn't vote tens of thousands of times from different IP addresses or use a bot to vote for them? You can't. So I fail to see how it passes the standards laid out at WP:RS. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talkcontributions) 02:42, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

A BBC poll with thousands of votes is inherently notable. I don't see anything disqualifying listener polls at RS. 2A02:C7F:8E0C:6600:F4D4:1445:2733:3A11 (talk) 03:12, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

No, it is not inherently notable. BBC could have a daily poll on the sidebar of their website asking a random question every day that gets thousands of votes, but that doesn't make each poll question inherently notable enough for inclusion in an encyclopedia. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talkcontributions) 03:35, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
Well the poll has gotten coverage elsewhere, so you're wrong on this one.[2][3] 2A02:C7F:8E0C:6600:F4D4:1445:2733:3A11 (talk) 04:21, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Personally I don't think it causes much harm. As long as it's not in article's lede and is somewhere in reception or legacy section to add some balance. There's no problem with the reverse situation of greatest albums. For example, in 2006 the British Hit Singles & Albums and NME organised a poll of 40,000 music fans to name what they considered the greatest album. Definitely Maybe came out on top of that poll, which isn't a surprise, telling by demographic factors (young working class people) and being fairly recent. This poll is mentioned in that article and many others. See BBC link [4]Larkhall Lynch (talk) 03:53, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree as well. Of course there are no guarantees that the polling methodology was sound, or that bots did not compromise the polling or many other things, but it's no different than television or radio programmes where the winners are selected by call-ins, or similar projects. Or worse, stating an album or song is important based on sales. Or that a song is important because it gets more airplay than another song. All rating systems are subjective. As long as it's clear what is being presented, we have to assume that readers understand the credibility of such things. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:27, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Everything that Larkhall Lynch and the IP socks say can be discounted, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/The abominable Wiki troll. Sro23 (talk) 07:31, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Well, that may be true of Larkhall Lynch and the IP, but it doesn't mean that the points they raised don't have some validity. I tend to agree with Walter Görlitz: as long as it's crystal clear what the poll is, then there's no problem. It could well be, though, that the album articles already carry plenty in the way of myth-deflating poll results or something similar – in which case this poll is not needed, just like each and every new rave review isn't needed. I think that's the case at Sgt. Pepper, because the retrospective criticism is given way too much coverage in the article whereas the professional reviews included in the ratings box don't even get a mention.
At the same time, I do agree we should be discerning about these listener/reader's polls. I remember a worst Beatles-songs poll in the Daily Telegraph a few years back where Neil McCormick basically wrote a list of what he considered to be the worst songs (with some frankly bizarre inclusions) and said, OK folks, now take your pick and vote ... The problem is, down the line, the results are reported in such a way that "[Track name]" has become "the third worst Beatles song, according to readers of the Daily Telegraph", without any qualification regarding McCormick's list. (I hope I've got that right: I could be confusing my polls and/or publications …)
So, aside from that Pepper-type scenario, the only thing that bothers me is that the IP user failed to add the poll to all the relevant album articles. No additions at OK Computer, Pet Sounds, Never Mind the Bollocks, The Queen Is Dead (list vs contribs) – now what's that about? JG66 (talk) 08:36, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

I would be very reluctant to add reader polls for a variety of reasons. They should really only be added to albums when you're discussing their legacy over time (e.g. a Beatles album may be at the top of readers' best albums for decades across several polls--that is worth noting) or for truly exceptional cases like being considered the worst album of all time but not for every single entry (e.g. "Album #3" by Johnny and the Music-Tones was ranked the #983 best album of all time by Music Publication in 2003. It was ranked #984 best album of all time by Albums Weekly in 2004. etc.) ―Justin (koavf)TCM 17:41, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Also oppose, for the same reason that viewers polls and imdb scores are not allowed in film articles- because they are unreliable and can be fixed or manipulated, for example major UK tv channel ITV polls have been subject to fixing Atlantic306 (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Dead url FIMI chart[edit]

Can someone help me fix the linkrot of the Italian chart in the Drive (2011 film) article? Bluesphere 07:19, 22 May 2017 (UTC)