Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anatomy

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Navbox "Human cell types derived primarily from mesoderm" take two[edit]

My question is: is this navbox useful?

We have the parameter "Precursor" in our anatomy infoboxes. So we can easily add information about embryology to the infoboxes of articles (see eg Podocyte), and then add a list on Mesoderm?. I just can't see how this template is useful for navigation. If a user is interested in mesoderm, they will just go to that article. To be clear, I'm not proposing this navbox for deletion, but I'd like the opinions of other editors as to what could be done. --Tom (LT) (talk) 02:16, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, at a future day I'd love to integrate such data with Wikidata so we can have a clickable tree of the embryological structures. --Tom (LT) (talk) 02:16, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
OK This is my proposed solution: Only retain precursor cells, not the end cell types. That way we won't end up describing all cells in the body. --Tom (LT) (talk) 09:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Update: have renamed references to the systems to the underlying stem cells (which the links pointed to anyway). That way the templates are less confusing for users of the navboxes, as the entire system referred to isn't always from a single precursor cell, but the stem cell is. I'm usually pro simplification, but in this case I think readers who actually use the navbox titled "Cells derived from mesoderm" will be familiar with some of the terminology. --Tom (LT) (talk) 10:40, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Just where does the ductus arteriosus connect to, anyway?[edit]

Per the cluey Eleassar, in arch of aorta we write this:

The ductus arteriosus connects to the lower part of the arch in foetal life. This allows blood from the right ventricle to mostly bypass the pulmonary vessels as they develop.

Yet in the Ligamentum arteriosum we write this:

The ligamentum arteriosum (or arterial ligament) is a small ligament attached to the superior surface of the left pulmonary artery and the proximal descending aorta.

This is reflected in a cardiology textbook here [1] yet my Gray's Anatomy 40th edition states "the ductus arteriosus shunts blood from the pulmonary trunk to the arch of the aorta" (page 1028). Do any other users have any sources on this? My feeling is that the real question here is where does the descending aorta begin? I look forward to the opinions of other users on this... and sources will be appreciated --Tom (LT) (talk) 10:21, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

The sternal angle is used to divide the mediastinum into superior and inferior mediastinum (Moore clinically oriented anatomy 7th ed., p.128 and Anatomy of the Thorax)

Mediastinum.png

If you look at the mediastinum from the lateral view with the lungs removed and draw an imaginary line from the sternal angle (2nd rib as landmark) posteriorly toward the back, the line would mark the beginning of the descending aorta. So basically, the descending aorta is contained within the inferior mediastinum right after passing the level of sternal angle. The same link above also mentioned that the descending thoracic aorta was contained within the posterior part of inferior mediastinum --Athikhun (talk) 08:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

In fetus, the ductus arteriosus connects left pulmonary trunk to the descending aorta [2]. (See page 202 for the drawing) But after birth when the ductus becomes the ligamentum arteriosum, the part where it ends appears to be closer to the arch of aorta as it develops. In my opinion, when talking about the ductus arteriosus in newborns I would refer to the descending aorta for where it connects. But when talking about the ligamentum arteriosum in mature individuals, I would say it connects to the arch of aorta as it is clearly seen in cadaver dissection. --Athikhun (talk) 13:28, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks for your reply. I wonder Athikhun if the ligamentum in fact retains its position, yet as the sternum ossifies the sternal angle moves downwards and the definition of beginning of the "descending aorta" changes. Hence it is correct to say that it attaches to the descending aorta in fetal life yet the arch of aorta in adult life. --Tom (LT) (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
I note in our article it is written "proximal" descending aorta, which might be an attempt to say it connects to the part of the aorta which is structurally descending after the arch, even if it doesn't match the technical definition. What would resolve this is a specialist publication on the position of the ductus arteriosus and ligamentum arteriosum. I'll try my luck. --Tom (LT) (talk) 23:49, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Very good point, Tom (LT)! Frankly, I don't know exactly how the ligamentum changes over the course of development. But I guess it is unlikely that it would retain position. If you compare the picture (on page 202) of the ductus arteriosus, you can see that the ductus runs 'downward' from the left pulmonary trunk to the aorta, whereas in adults the ligamentum runs 'upward' from the pulmonary trunk to the aorta. For the position of the beginning of the descending aorta to the sternum as the sternum ossifies, I believe that its position relative to the sternal angle remains unchanged because the position of the heart is kept in place by the sternopericardial ligaments, which firmly attach the heart to the sternum. This could be the reason why the sternal angle is used as landmark for many structures in the mediastinum. --Athikhun (talk) 02:04, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
You make a good point. It may be a case of differential rates of growth of different parts of the cardiovascular system that cause its position to change. I've added some more articles that I'll look over when I have time and continue to ponder this topic this afternoon. --Tom (LT) (talk) 04:30, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I think these sources elucidate this: [3] (p60: "the ligamentum is attached to the inferior aspect of the arch, just beyond the origin of the left subclavian artery") and here [4] (p463: "The transition between the aortic arch and descending aorta is show. The part of the aortic arch that is positioned between the origin of the left subclavian artery and the attachment of the ligamentum arteriosum is on the left or terminal part of the arch... In the literature, this part of the arch has been labelled the isthsmus of the aorta.") --Tom (LT) (talk) 04:30, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, Tom (LT). I echo you on calling the part the 'isthmus of the aorta' as I'm reading multiple sources right now. So let's put it this way. The ductus arteriosus connects the left pulmonary trunk to the isthmus of aorta. Perhaps the article isthmus of aorta should be created too. --Athikhun (talk) 10:22, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Athikhun.suw on further reading, I think it is most accurate to say that the ductus arteriosus connects to the junction between the isthmus of the arch of aorta and the descending aorta. The isthmus is the narrow distal end of the arch of aorta.[5] (p100) The reason that it's called 'isthmus' is that it's relatively smaller compared with the descending aorta in foetal life, because it's the cranial-direction outflow of the ductus arteriosus in foetal life, and the rest of the arch dilates when the left ventricular outflow increases over time. [6] (p442). --Tom (LT) (talk) 10:21, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm confident we have found the right answer here and will create the article and update the suite of articles shortly. --Tom (LT) (talk) 10:21, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Breasts with regard to both sexes[edit]

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Breast#Edit request Jul 18 2015: Aspect with regard to both sexes. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 (talk) 16:48, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Editor who seems to be opposing displayed male genitalia, but not displayed female genitalia[edit]

Ddamoah (talk · contribs) has been going around adding real-life images of female genitalia while removing real-life images of male genitalia (including an image that looks like it's a real-life image at the Dorsal veins of the penis article). For what I mean, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. I'm guessing that Ddamoah is male, and is removing the images based on a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT rationale. Flyer22 (talk) 19:55, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of why he's doing it it's clearly disruptive. I've placed a warning on his page. Let us hope it does not continue. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 21:57, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I appreciate you and Iztwoz helping out with the reverts, and you helping out with issuing the warning. Flyer22 (talk) 22:18, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Grayfell, regarding this, see what I stated above in this section if you haven't already. Flyer22 (talk) 23:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC)