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Request for Clarification[edit]

Is it correct that an editor may not move an AFC page from draft space into article space, but must wait for a reviewer? I thought that I knew the answer, which was that anyone can move almost anything into article space. However, a draft was moved into article space by its author, and then someone whom I think was an admin moved it back into draft space, saying that the editor should have waited for a reviewer. I know that editors are always advised to wait for a reviewer, but is there actually a rule against an author moving the page into article space themselves? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:41, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I certainly don't remember there ever being a policy against such a thing. It's possible the admin considered the move nicer and less bitey than speedy deletion. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:54, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
No rule whatsoever. You'd have to ask the admin what his thought process was. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 02:04, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I need to be on the list![edit]

Can add to me in the list GXXF TC 18:19, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

@GXXF: You do not yet meet the AfC reviewing criteria, which you can view at WP:WPAFC/P. You are welcome to join the project once you meet all four criteria. Thanks, /wiae /tlk 18:34, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Query on AfC and NewArticleAFDTagger[edit]

From time to time, articles go through a sequence of AfD deletion, then an accepted AfC draft, then back to AfD. Looking at one such today, I notice that the AnomieBOT NewArticleAFDTagger does not act on an accepted AfC draft. Should it? Or is a completed AfC process assumed to have "washed clean" the prior notability issues?

Moving a step further back in the process, it also occurs to me that an adapted version of that BOT could help bind together AfD and AfC processes, if it was to be run against each new Draft:xxx article when it is created, adding the Old AfD multi box to Draft talk:xxx to assist reviewers by informing them of past discussion(s). AllyD (talk) 10:05, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

I can't comment on your second observation/proposal; your first claim is indeed valid. I had no awareness of this bot's existence. After reading it's purpose, "Add[ing] {{old AfD multi}} to the talk pages of new articles that have previously appeared at WP:AFD", the bot should be doing just that, regardless of the article's origin. I'm sure this is unintended, and I suggest you contact those responsible for the bot directly. AfC does not wash anything clean, and if an article has gone through one or several AfD discussions, the reviewer or any passing editor for that matter should have that information available to them. Best, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:39, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm not 100% sure from its description what AnomieBOT NewArticleAFDTagger is supposed to do regarding accepted AfC submissions but it may be worth noting that all AfC drafts moved to mainspace are subjected to a further review by Page Curators and that the WMF development team has been asked to incorporate a feature in the special:New Pages Feed that highlights any pages that have previously been deleted or tagged for deletion.Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:20, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Would some auto-generated reports help with backlog triage?[edit]

Hi all, I'm new to AfC and am looking for different ways to help out. I have some experience writing bots and database reports. After poking around AfC yesterday I thought there might be an opportunity for me to put that to use here and help other reviewers. For example, the category structure organizes AfC drafts by submission date, let's you see which ones are pending review, which ones have been declined, etc. Would a sortable list that contains other kinds of information also be useful? I'm thinking of something like they have at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. For example, we could display:

  • When the draft was created
  • How many times a draft has been declined, when and by whom
  • The reason it was declined
  • Whether the draft creator has made any edits to the draft since it was last declined

We obviously couldn't list all 1000+ drafts in a single table, but perhaps this could help people keep tabs on the most recently active drafts.

It also looks like project has a few tools that help reviewers track project-level stats. The AfC status template tracks the current size of the backlog, and the AfC helper script maintains a little feed that displays the ten most recent AfC drafts. Would it be useful to have other stats about the project? For example:

  • number of drafts submitted/accepted/declined this month
  • a list of currently active reviewers

These are just examples; I'm happy to hear peoples' ideas for other auto-generated reports or bot tasks that could be useful, or to just focus on helping bring down the backlog the old-fashioned way :) Cheers, J-Mo 02:20, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

User:Jtmorgan Statistics I'm interested in are the number of declines per each decline reason, a daily report if feasible, otherwise weekly. This is to see what problems are the most common in submitted drafts and then try to find ways to reduce them even before the author hits the submit button. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:40, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Dodger67 I ran those numbers for you for the past 30 days and posted the results in my sandbox. The first 25 or so reasons look like stock 'decline' messages. The other ~70 are custom messages. You can get fresh data any time you want by 'forking' and re-running the query yourself. Instructions are on the query page. Note that speed and simplicity's sake, I only counted declines of articles in the Drafts namespace, and only for the past 30 days. If you think it would be useful, I can also run it over all past AfC declines, at least all declines that have occurred since AFCH has used these 'stock' edit comments. And I can include more namespaces, if you'll let me know which namespaces other than Draft: AfC drafts are generally stored in (User: and Wikipedia_talk? Anything else?). Any other quick stats you want in the near future, to get a sense of where we're at with AfC, let me know! Cheers, J-Mo 23:42, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Jtmorgan, a 30 day sample is very good. There's just one significant part that's missing, drafts that are declined in userspace (user sandboxes). These are mostly those that are not even worth moving to draftspace for further work. These are the ones that we could actually try to eliminate even before they get submitted. Another question, is it possible to count drafts that were declined and deleted, such as copyvios or hoaxes? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 05:28, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
Hi Dodger67, I wrote a new query for counts in "User" namespace. I also wrote a new query that counts all deleted pages in the "Drafts" namespace over the past 30 days, grouped by reason given for deletion. The edit comments in the deletion log are a lot less standardized, and not always particularly descriptive, but I count only 13 drafts deleted for copyvio reasons and 27 deleted as hoaxes—fewer than I expected. Running this query in the "User" namespace as well would probably take a long time, and there would be a lot more noise in the data, because user pages are deleted for many more reasons than "Draft" pages. But I could give it a try. J-Mo 23:04, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Can we temporarily stop submissions?[edit]

Is it possible to change the code that executes when a user clicks "Submit" so that it does not actually add the draft to the review stack but intead pops up a message explaining that "due to the severe backlog we are temporarily unable to add any drafts to the review queue, please try again in 24 hours". A few days of no incoming drafts would give us an opportunity to get rid of the backlog. We can return to normal operation as soon as the queue is down to between 200-300 and there are no pending reviews older than two weeks. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:53, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

This is ironically excellent news. It proves, just like at NPP, that it is absolutely time that the WMF understood the urgent need to complete the new landing page they started 5 years ago. I don't think it's necessary to to do what you suggest. I would just let the backlog build up. The incoming draft that you would like held up will still arrive sooner or later. Hard-line traditionalists would argue of course that to hold up new submissions conflicts with founding policy, which of course is absolutely not true for IPs at least, but registered users currently have a 'constitutional' right to publish instantly until we roll out ACTRIAL. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:24, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
But, what about our good faith contributors who are not getting the AFC service "as adverised"? It's unfair to make so many of them wait up to a month for a review. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 12:14, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
But at best stopping reviews would make good faith contributors wait even longer, at worse put them off submitting altogether. We're a volunteer project, if we don't have enough volunteers then there's going to be a backlog, full stop. There's no way around it. Joe Roe (talk) 13:24, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
We may as well let it add, so that reviewers get a bigger choice on what to work on. Instead of discussing here, I could be reviewing another page though! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:55, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
If we stop accepting AFC submissions due to the backlog, all that it will do is to increase the total time that the author is waiting, because, when we start accepting submissions again, there will still be a backlog, just a long one rather than a very long one. I certainly don't see the point to stopping taking submissions, and disagree. Also, non-good-faith contributors would start submitting into article space, where we also have a backlog at NPP, and a backlog at NPP is worse. I see why the OP is proposing this, but I simply disagree. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
There's two things happening here: first there's perhaps an expectation on the part of these contributors that their draft will seen promptly. We ought to warn them the process is slowing more than usual. Second, there's Wikipedian concern when the backlog grows. We created the scary warning to push more editors to work the backlog. As for me, I'm pretty disenchanted with the promotional garbage that continually flows in from drive-by editors just wanting "their article" to be published. Everyone just needs to lower their expectations. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:13, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
An official WMF programme is looking into the issues of reviewing across all Wikipedias. An English Wikipedia team has been created to help the WMF focus their research and development on the more critical needs of the en.Wiki for reviewing new pages and reducing the flux of totally inappropriate articles. While it is unlikely that the Foundation will invest in AfC which is a purely volunteer driven local initiative, they are being asked to include some of the features of AfC into a revamp of the WP:Page Curation toolbar which is a extension designed as part of the MediaWiki core software. Some of our concerns are already being addressed by the developers.
However, from what I understand, THe Foundation CEO is not particularly warm to the idea of anything that may put the brakes on any kind of creations, (including the WP:ACTRIAL initiative which might therefore now be implemented by the en.Wiki community using local scripts). So while temporarily refusing AfC submissions will not ultimately reduce the number of creations to be reviewed, it might send an additional message to the Foundation that a proper Landing Page for new users is urgently required, and that such an excellent programme developed bu former WMF devs has existed for 4 years and just needs to be completed and rolled out.
The concerns of the regular AfC operators may therefore be of interest to WHF devs Kaldari and MusikAnimal. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
As I mentioned to Kudpung, the Community Tech team will be accepting new project proposals at the 2016 Community Wishlist Survey beginning November 7th. If there are any specific ways that we can help with AfC, please create a proposal for it at the survey and encourage others to vote for it. As you can see from our latest status report, we are serious about addressing community requests. We just need the community's help to figure out which needs are the highest priority. Also, a couple clarifications: I don't believe Katherine has said anything about AfC or Drafts, she just expressed concern that a new ACTRIAL would discourage new editors (and she hasn't said anything about ACTRIAL in an official capacity). Also, the Collaboration Team is the team working on Edit Review Improvements, not Community Tech. Sorry for any confusion. Kaldari (talk) 04:09, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

–== It's time again. ==

I highly believe that a backlog drive is needed (Even though we haven't had one in two years.) They have been proven to work, and it may be very fun to some editors to compete with each other and still help. I haven't seen backlogs like this ever in the time I've been on (I've been only on this site for about 9 months.) If a backlog drive was to come to fruition, I will try my best to wipe out all the AFCs.— JJBers Public (talk) 16:18, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

I highly believe it's not. Backlogs increase the speed at which people work and reduce the quality. of reviewing.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kudpung (talkcontribs) 12:27, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
That's the point of re-reviewing, to get bad articles removed.— JJBers (talk) 19:28, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Rally on AFC reviewers!
Hmm, I have to agree with what Kudpung says here. Backlog drives tend to reduce quality and I personally do not want to compromise on quality. Btw, sometimes even a short comment (as opposed to a decline/accept is helpful for the article creator. I try to at least leave some comments so that the creator doesn't think we are ignoring them. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 19:51, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I understand we have to work a bit harder. But let's do it! (Sorry, I couldn't find a better poster for the occasion) --Lemongirl942 (talk) 20:00, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Bad reviews, which we know from hard experience increase massively during backlog drives, cost us too many potential good editors. By the time re-reviews happen the damage is already done. The actual point of re-reviews is to get bad reviewers removed, but it happens too late for all the bitten newbies. You've never even seen a backlog drive, so how on earth did you form your opinion about them? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Lemongirl942, I don't think we need to work harder. We are all volunteers here (something which not only the WMF conveniently forgets, but also some of our own Arbcom members who treat us as a corporate workforce), and we all do what we can, if we can, and when we can.
We could (and probably should) however, perhaps work harder to convince the WMF that these issues have now goen too far to be simply resolved by scripts made by unpaid volunteers. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:46, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
I would be in favor of a backlog drive if we screened reviewers before the start. We could have editors sign up and then peer-review each other to ensure we don't have any runaway foul-ups like last time. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:01, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. I would prefer slightly lower quality reviews over reviews that happen months and months after the draft was submitted, at which point there's a good chance that the creator has lost interest in Wikipedia. Omni Flames (talk) 01:15, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
I agree strongly with this comment, and with the original reason for opening the thread. 1205 pending, while not as high as the dark days of 3K, isn't that good, and a backlog drive would be really helpful with tackling that problem. Enterprisey (talk!) 00:08, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Category:AfC_submissions_by_age/Very_old is now empty. I don't think anyone has waited much more than 20 days during this backlog. ~Kvng (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm afraid your arithmetic is faulty, Kvng. "Very old" is defined as more than 28 days. There have been, and still are, many drafts in the "Three weeks" and "Four weeks" categories, which by definition means they have indeed waited for more than twenty days. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:46, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
I stand corrected. I will see if I can help with Category:AfC pending submissions by age/4 weeks ago. The AFC submission template warns authors that the wait is 2-3 weeks. I guess it is a bit longer. ~Kvng (talk) 22:39, 22 October 2016 (UTC)
The majority of submissions still get seen to in three weeks or less, but under "normal" conditions the wait hardly ever exceeds 3 weeks. A histogram plotting review numbers by wait time should be quite interesting. My gut-feel is that many are reviewed within the first two or three days and then it tapers off quite sharply with perhaps a second peak in the two-week area. Is there a statistician in the house? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:15, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 October 2016[edit]

Youtubegirl2005 (talk) 20:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Shearonink (talk) 20:23, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Wrongly moved submissions nominated for deletion[edit]

Ambox warning blue.svg Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Wrongly moved submissions has been nominated for deletion. As this page is a part of WikiProject Articles for creation, interested editors are invited to participate at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Articles for creation/Wrongly moved submissions.— Godsy (TALKCONT) 17:49, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

I've withdrawn the nomination for deletion, but would urge that the WikiProject Articles for creation/Submissions/List page be edited to remove the link to Wrongly moved submissions, which far from being "updated every hour" has not been updated since April 2013: Noyster (talk), 22:42, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
I agree, remove the incoming link from Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Submissions/List then either mark it as historical or delete, its function has been superseded by Category:Pending AfC submissions in article space. -- Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 17:36, 28 October 2016 (UTC)