Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation

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Definition of "bustle" in an aviation context?[edit]

In File:China Airlines Flight 140 EN.svg I'm trying to find the definition of a bustle. Does it mean a kind of cover on machinery? This is important because I want to translate this image into Chinese. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Not heard of it but as "B" doesnt actually appear in the diagram it probably doesnt matter. MilborneOne (talk) 18:47, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
I'll assume it just means "a cover of an electronic component" - I'll try to find a Chinese person to translate the legend so the Chinese version can be made. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:08, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
The good news: The maps are now internationalized into Chinese. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Well done, did you ever find out what Bustle was or even where it was ? MilborneOne (talk) 18:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
It referred to the cover of the escape slides. Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2015_June_2#Requested_translation:_What_are_the_terms_in_File:China_Airlines_Flight_140_EN.svg__in_Chinese.3F ("I can't answer your main question, but I think bustle refers specifically to the cover of the stored evacuation slide. See the second paragraph of the linked article.") WhisperToMe (talk) 00:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

"3D printing in aerospace industry"[edit]

FYI, 3D-printed spacecraft has been requested to be renamed to "aerospace industry" -- (talk) 04:37, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

See Talk:3D-printed spacecraft for the discussion -- (talk) 04:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

rotax 912 "development"[edit]

See "this edit"<> I reverted the nonsense but the IP-user re-reverted. What can be done except a revert war? Jan olieslagers (talk) 06:59, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

If there is continued disruptive editing, the article can be semi-protected. Mjroots (talk) 08:19, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Pretty easy, really. I have found and added a reliable ref (the operators manual) and then adjusted the text to conform to the cited ref. Any changes that contradict the cited ref are basically vandalism. - Ahunt (talk) 11:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Dank u wel! And I will gladly agree that an operator's manual does constitute encyclopaedical value. Jan olieslagers (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't get any more "expert" on engines than the manufacturer! - Ahunt (talk) 14:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project[edit]

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest.--Lucas559 (talk) 22:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

New aerospace engineer Bio at Draft: Maurice Brennan[edit]

KreyszigB (talk · contribs) has produced Draft:Maurice Brennan. Brennan was a British aircraft designer, he worked at Saunders-Roe on helicopters and then the SR53 and 177 mixed power interceptors. He took over at Folland after Teddy Petter left then later worked at Avro and Hawker Siddeley. Could someone look it over with a view to promotion to article space - it seems good to me (some fettling needed but only stylistic issues) but I'm not acquainted with the process. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:47, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

2015 Indonesia Hercules C-130 crash[edit]

New article - experienced eyes needed. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:11, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Russian hypersonics[edit]

Do we have an article on Russian hypersonic military platforms? (ie. Yu-71, Project 4202) like the Chinese WU-14, the U.S. DARPA Falcon Project/Advanced Hypersonic Weapon, the Indian Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle -- (talk) 06:03, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

In principle, the red links say we don't.--Jetstreamer Talk 13:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
Only if they are spelled in the manner in which I wrote them, and if they're not covered in some other article as parts of a section who no one created redirects for. Since there are US and Chinese articles, I'd figure that Russia would have gotten attention as well. -- (talk) 03:48, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Ryanair Flight 296[edit]

The non-notable Ryanair Flight 296 was redirected per a decision at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ryanair Flight 296 (2nd nomination) but continues to be restored by Ridland as an article, I doubt it has become notable in time so I have been changing it back to a redirect per the previous decision, any comments ? MilborneOne (talk) 16:53, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Just to note that I have suggested to User:Ridland to take the original decisions for Ryanair Flight 296 and KLM Flight 1673 to Wikipedia:Deletion review, rather than continually restore them, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 17:26, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Aviation rocket engines[edit]

FYI, there is a notice at Template talk:Rocket Engines that concerns this project -- (talk) 05:25, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

List of aircraft of X Air Force/Military table formats, especially as related to images[edit]

There is a discussion on List of aircraft of the Swiss Air Force regarding the use of images in tables listing the equipment used by various air forces. As it stands there is something of a mess with these pages - some air forces have images in the table, some alongside, some have no images at all, and some have straight lists with or without images. Some degree of uniformity should be carried out across all of these pages especially as they are likely to be compared to each other. In addition, some air forces have separate pages for current and historic, others combine them into a single page, but as separate lists, and others have them in a single table. So far the discussion has just been about the use of images.

The points I have laid out so far are thus:
  1. Many aircraft lack images or lack images for the appropriate air force leaving blanks or photos of inappropriate aircraft (wrong AF mostly).
  2. Images are of random sizes, messing up table formatting.
  3. The purpose of the table is to provide information, not be a gallery. Wikimedia is for galleries.
  4. They take up a lot of space, stretching even fairly short lists into unmanageable ones.
  5. Images in tables are too small to see properly on smaller screens such as cell phones.
  6. If someone is interested in what the aircraft looks like there is already a link to that aircraft's page.
  7. The tables that have images are almost all for current inventory, which covers a small number of types - historical listings rarely have images inline, not least because they are less likely to be the focus of nationalistic zealotry, and they have a lot more entries and would be unmanageable for even a medium sized air force. They should be consistent, and the likelihood of finding appropriate images for a majority of historical listings is low. Images should be used sparingly, and should add to the article beyond making it look pretty (which they don't) - in fact there is a wiki rule against that being the sole purpose for images.
  8. Of all the information one can put in a table, an image is a long way down the useful list - when it entered service is far more important but there is no room for that in many current tables, nor is there even room to give each entry a single line.
  9. Because other lists have them is no reason at all (another wiki rule). Many lists are not infected by useless clutter such as:
List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Navy
List of historic aircraft of the People's Liberation Army Air Force
List of military aircraft of Japan
List of historical aircraft of the Indian Air Force
List of Regia Aeronautica aircraft used in World War II
List of aircraft of the Royal Air Force
List of military aircraft of Sweden
List of military aircraft of the Soviet Union and the CIS
List of Albanian Air Force aircraft
List of aircraft of Argentine Naval Aviation
Belize Defence Force Air Wing
List of active Brazilian military aircraft
List of aircraft of the Brazilian Navy
List of active Bulgarian military aircraft
List of former Bulgarian military aircraft
List of active People's Liberation Army aircraft
List of military aircraft of Denmark
List of active Egyptian military aircraft
List of aircraft of the Egyptian Air Force
List of military aircraft of Finland
List of aircraft of Canada's air forces

And on, and on... indeed more of these air force lists lack images than have them. NiD.29 (talk) 21:30, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

For the past several months I've been updating the tables (sourcing/ sub-headings etc) following the Aviation/Style guide/Lists and WP:IMAGEMOS (Don't overload articles with images) as per NiD.29 point and bring some uniformity to these tables - FOX 52 (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
The section on Sortable lists of aircraft types is not really suitable for national lists, as it includes a column for nationality. Some of the air force lists under discussion include additional columns, such as numbers in service, that people might want to keep. I'd suggest that we adapt the columns accordingly and add a new section to the style guide page for Lists of types in a given organisation" or similar heading. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:21, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello all together Pictures make the chart more attractive to the reader. Images are information carriers and give the reader a first impression of the aircraft to the publically available information.For the active inventory it should be no problem to find the right picture (type& Nation), its more live in the page with a picture to every type in the list (type& Nation). As can be seen, this (pictures in the chart) is used inventory lists for other Air Force on Wikipedia.

So I am for having pictures in the inventory lists. I think in active inventory such a picture is a must have, and even by air forces (for eg.List of currently active Russian military aircraft) I see no problem. I would prefere to have the pictures in the active inventory and the one with retired aircraft. But I can see that by the historical aircraft not for any aircraft a picture can be found, so its not that important to me.FFA P-16 (talk) 20:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC) And a other "big fish" List of active United States military aircraftFFA P-16 (talk) 20:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with NiD.29 per his points - images in the table are unnecessary, and only clutter the page, causing formatting issues. The purpose of the table(s) is to provide information, not be a gallery. They take up a lot of space, stretching long lists into unmanageable ones. And Images in tables are too small to see properly on smaller screens such as smart phones. If someone is interested in what the aircraft looks like there is already a link to that aircraft's page - FOX 52 (talk) 21:18, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Since were listing pages I've already overhauled 112 air force tables with 39 to go (following the basic Aviation guide/Lists with out images). I began this project back in December - FOX 52 (talk) 21:25, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
Aircraft Photo Origin Role Version Number
Comment/NOTES or whatever this box should be called
F-16 [[file:some photo.ext|100px]] USA etc etc etc
Place a all that supplementary information that makes all these tables odd looking with too much whitespace here, on a separate line below, like how episode lists handle episode summaries
Those have horrible formatting. I recommend using a two-line format, like how TV episode lists are formatted, so that the "notes" or whatever the long commentary section is called, appears as a table-wide box below the other boxes for the particular list entry. A picture can be standardized a 100px, and would not be intrusive, but, as to whether it's a good idea or not, I have no opinion. -- (talk) 03:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
No that's still leading to the problem of images which will clutter the page, causing formatting issues. The purpose of the table(s) is to provide information, not be a gallery - TV episode are a little different than aircraft type list - FOX 52 (talk) 04:15, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
How about...
Name CAF
Place of
Retired #
Airbus Polaris CC-150 France transport/tanker 1992 current 5 [4][note 2]
Airco DH.4 n/a UK bomber 1920 1928 12 [5]
Active types are highlighted with an alternate colour, and there is lots of room for the full name of the aircraft. Because current use is small, it can be merged with the historical use, so those types that have been in use forever are not conspicuously absent from the historical listing which can not then be used to provide an idea of what equipment an air arm had at some particular point in time. A note can indicate if current inventory has been reduced.
No need for a version column, which again gets bloated easily, with the versions listed with the aircraft name. Versions associated with a different use (trainers for instance) can have their own entry. Instead an optional column can cover alternate designations where the particular air arm changed the designations at some point (US and RCAF for instance both changed designation systems)
Place of Manufacture is a better choice than Origin as not all aircraft are built where the design originated - for instance the Swiss historical list has to go through hoops with the Harvard II, which originated in the US but was built in Canada. Rather than the "North American (Noorduyn) Harvard IIB" it uses which isn't normal usage, it could have "North American Harvard IIB" (normal use) - with the Place of Manufacture being Canada.
Notes is for the references most of these pages lack, and it gets the supplementary notes (which often are long winded and full of trivia and cruft) out of the way and not messing up the formatting or providing distractions like how much a program cost, or what aircraft they traded where (for an example of this type of mess see the current Turkish list which needs severe trimming).
All columns MUST be sortable so the information can be put into context, which non-sortable tables with column spans cannot. The purpose of a table is to provide context. A table that can't be sorted is useless for most of the reasons anyone would put the information in a table in the first place.
CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! - cheers, :-) NiD.29 (talk) 05:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Compare how clean and readable and useful List of aircraft of Canada's air forces is, compared with List of active aircraft of the Turkish Air Force whose format actively prevents comparisons between table entries, and whose pictures reduce the number of visible entries even on a large screen to a small number - how much is visible on a small screen? Part of one entry, maybe? Will the public come back to that page? Probably not - they will go elsewhere because they can't make sense of what it has.NiD.29 (talk) 05:27, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Dear NiD.29, I think the List of active aircraft of the Turkish Air Force still looks good, on diffrend screens.. I have checked it out so far on 4 differend sizes of screens. i see no problem. Also I have to say that the List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force looks much more attractive to me to reading as List of aircraft of Canada's air forces ( Tow times Canada, one with pics one without).FFA P-16 (talk) 12:51, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Tables should be void of mini images, (tables) are to provide concise information, not be a gallery, that's for Wikimedia - And a few examples other tables (no pictures needed) List of muscles of the human body, List of rulers of China, Timeline of deportations of French Jews to death camps, List of Metropolitan Statistical Areas, Cheers and Coach (TV series) and we should not be the exception, that's why we have Help:Links - FOX 52 (talk) 16:03, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello Fox. yes if someone is interested in pictures he can go to wikimedia But we have the the possibility to use the pictures in many ways in wikipedia, and "a picture tells more than thousand words" Having a picture in every row of a type in this lists is far a way from beeing a gallery. We are here now discuss about Inventory chards / lists of Air Force/Military table formats. I think it is not a good idea to have one single rule for all these lists/charts/.. for all kinds of issues that exist in Wikipeda. if we already compare should be with a comparable theme, like for eg.

As a few exampels FFA P-16 (talk) 17:09, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

For the record, I'd like to say that - in my opinion - List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force is one of the clumsiest, ugliest tables in existence on Wikipedia. And you need to work on your wikilinking. GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:35, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I dont have a strong view either way on images but as Graeme has said List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force is not the way to go, the load of text in a table cell is probably a worse thing than the image, but we do have worse at List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force. MilborneOne (talk) 19:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Probably the reason why most tables don't have images, they take up a lot more space than needed and agree I with GraemeLeggett just "clumsiest, ugliest" looking table - FOX 52 (talk) 19:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I would say by the List of aircraft of the Royal Canadian Air Force not the pictures make it to a clumsie table, i would say there is to much text in the "notes". Yes the List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force is ugly, but this is not because of the pictures it is in general a little chaotic and again to much text in the "Notes". I think on the other hand the List of currently active Russian military aircraft is a nice example for such a table . The pictures are good and make the list interesting and appealing as without pictures.FFA P-16 (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Both the pictures and excessive text make it clumsy and ugly, but take away the notes and will still be clumsy and pointless - it may as well be just an article - lists (especially when made into tables) are not simply simply a cute formatting exercise - the whole point is that they facilitate the understanding of the information presented, which a table that is loaded with images and excessive text does not, and indeed cannot. A picture may tell a story of thousand words (although a picture of an aircraft almost never does), but it is not a story that belongs in the table - the table is telling a different story - of how that one aircraft relates to others used by the same organization - in numbers, dates, where it was purchased etc - the picture is a distraction from the other things we can learn - which often we can only learn from a sortable table. Can you tell me at a glance what the most numerous aircraft in the Swiss inventory has been? Without scrolling through the entire list? Or what types were merely tested rather than being widely used? One click on the clean, image-free sortable list and you have that information - information you could not easily see by scrolling through it, or even determine from the cluttered up list with the pictures. (It is the Morane-Saulnier 406 and variants btw). In addition, once images are added, the list becomes a magnet for useless trivia that doesn't belong there, as the Pakistan and Current RCAF tables clearly demonstrate.NiD.29 (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Hello NiD29 A picture gives the reader much faster an information what general type of aircraft it is than text ( you see a 4 engine higwing T tail jet Transport AC). To understand me right i am not only for pictures iam for pictures AND of how that one aircraft relates to others used by the same organization - in numbers, dates, where it was purchased etc. "Without scrolling through the entire list? " ? If you look for some special information you have to scrol trough the list no mather if there are pictures or not. Also I have to say for me a list with pictures looks much more interesting, the pictures motivate to have a closer look at the list or a part of it. But having no pictures make a list looking (in german you say "trocken " =dry, dusty). Not every one knows how a A-50 look like so the can see it right on the list and have not to click to the pages woh decribe the aircraft type, then go back to the list and do this for every type. If we have the pictures in an aproped size and in a clear row they dont clutter up the list. As I sayd before i testet it on 4 differend screens of differend sitzes,I had no problem with the pictures, the list. And today we have the tools to crate nice lists with pictures so we should use this, for me lists without picture look also very oldfashion You have to remeber we humans taking on informations on the first priorety on the visual way, so pictures help us to get informations. FFA P-16 (talk) 19:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

And i find it much easyer to finde an aircaft type (for ge F/A-18, MiG-29) by his photo, than seach in a only text list for this aircraft.FFA P-16 (talk) 19:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

The Turkish list is horrid, due to the comments causing massive amounts of whitespace

Aircraft Origin Role something or other something or other something or other Notes
F-16 USA etc etc etc etc [a][b][c]
Place a all that supplementary information that makes all these tables odd looking with too much whitespace here, on a separate line below, like how episode lists handle episode summaries

Regardless of whether there are images in the table or not, all the tables with extended commentary per entry, should use a two-line format. -- (talk) 06:18, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

For example, from the Turkish Air Force list, we have this horrible amount of vertical whitespace:

Aircraft Photo Origin Role Version Number Note
Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon F-16C  USA
Multirole fighter F-16C
Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactured 242 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40. 163 Turkish F-16 have been modernised under the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) bringing them to Block 50+ configuration. TAI has commenced modernizing 30 of its F-16 Block 30 fleet with an indigenous package developed by ASELSAN as a test bed for the TAI TFX program. TuAF additionally operates 30 F-16 Block 50+ with Conformal Fuel Tanks.

But it could look like

Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon Turkish Air Force F-16C Block 50 MOD 45157793.jpg  USA
Multirole fighter F-16C
Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactured 242 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40. 163 Turkish F-16 have been modernised under the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) bringing them to Block 50+ configuration. TAI has commenced modernizing 30 of its F-16 Block 30 fleet with an indigenous package developed by ASELSAN as a test bed for the TAI TFX program. TuAF additionally operates 30 F-16 Block 50+ with Conformal Fuel Tanks.

or without the picture

Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon  USA
Multirole fighter F-16C
Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactured 242 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 30 and 40. 163 Turkish F-16 have been modernised under the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) bringing them to Block 50+ configuration. TAI has commenced modernizing 30 of its F-16 Block 30 fleet with an indigenous package developed by ASELSAN as a test bed for the TAI TFX program. TuAF additionally operates 30 F-16 Block 50+ with Conformal Fuel Tanks.

which have much better presentation -- (talk) 06:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

The issue then is the length of the comment. Table should be for pithy and to the point content. Further detail will (should be) in the aircraft of air force articles. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:04, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
None of those are useful presentations - they all break table functionality, and are hideous to boot. Again the whole point of the table is to do something you cannot do with just text in a aparagraph - the layouts you have made may as well just be text and not be a list at all.
Name Place of
Role(s) Service
Retired #
Lockheed Martin F-16C Fighting Falcon  US/ Turkey Multirole fighter 19? n/a 185 [note 1]
Lockheed Martin F-16D Fighting Falcon  US/ Turkey Multirole fighter/trainer 19? n/a 57 [note 1]
There has yet to be a single rational argument provided to support leaving images in the table other than one person thinks they look pretty - which is a non-argument as that is already covered by wiki rules (ie no unnecessary images, and no excess images, and images should be pertinent to the page) - but lots to the contrary. An image adds nothing when there is already a link to the aircraft's page. Yet another broken format variation on the same theme is not helpful.NiD.29 (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
  • As it stands I think the debate has run it's course, and appears we should keep in place of what we currently use (image to remain out of the Table(s)) - FOX 52 (talk) 23:00, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I think the result is that the photos have to go. The rules preclude them and I haven't seen a good reason to "ignore all rules" presented here. "It looks nice" is not a good enough reason. - Ahunt (talk) 23:20, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

The picture helps to recognize an aircraft than searching its name in the list. It is annoying if you then still have to switch between pages back and forth just turn around as certain types of aircraft at an Air Force look.Nowadays it is rather unusual that there are no pictures to support the text in a document of this kind.FFA P-16 (talk) 05:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I am against images in the lists, and they also go against policy (which has been made clear enough). Although there has not been a poll or vote, I count opinions now as:
For images: 1
No preference: 2
Against images: 4
No view expressed: 1
But more significantly, the arguments against are supported by policy while the arguments for are supported only by "why I like them" statements. As it happens, this is also the majority view so we have a very clear consensus to remove images from these lists.
I am also against long screeds of text, they also are not what list tables are for. I don't think the relevant policy has been explicitly brought up yet in this thread but I am sure it can be found. Do we need to dig it out or can we call this a wrap too?
Finally, I should like to raise the issue of national flags. Certainly, our guideline on sortable lists of aircraft in general forbids them and ISTR there is longstanding wider policy and consensus that they should not be used in this kind of list. Does anybody have a problem with this?
— Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:28, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
I believe by consensus the only place we use flags is in the operator section of aircraft articles and not anywhere else. MilborneOne (talk) 20:06, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Question regarding Origin (or Place of manufacture) I've place the original producer of a type ei; Brazilian Air Force use of the EC-725 origin France and in notes stated "licensed manufactured by Helibras" as opposed to made Brazil as the Origin - thoughts - FOX 52 (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
The origin is normally where the aircraft are built so in the case you mention it should be just Brazil. MilborneOne (talk) 20:03, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
  • (E/C) For Origin as in national origin in Infobox WP:Air has used where it was originally designed and built. For license production we're have sometimes listed both like France/Brazil if the license manufacturer partnered with the original manufacturer for the local version, such as the TAI/AgustaWestland T129. Just depends on what reasonably fits the situation. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:12, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
OK then a note should be made perhaps stating the original creator of the type? - FOX 52 (talk) 20:09, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Listing "Place of manufacture" like in Steelpillow's last table above seems to handle things best, imo. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:17, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

For the flags I see to possible ways 1. only the flag of the orginal creator of the type. 2. Flag of the creator of the type and flag of the place it was built but wit the note Built under license. Two flags with no such note like in the example here shown with the Turkish Air Force F-16 is not so good, I would use more than one flag without the not build under license only for multinational aircraft like the Jaguar, Tornado, Eurofighter,.. And if you are against photos in the list so please treated al this air force list equal. For eg.It's weird when an Australian forcible all photos from the Swiss Air Force list deletes, but in the list on the Australian Air Force All pictures can be in the list.FFA P-16 (talk) 20:57, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Those articles mentioned will be rectified, with image pulled from the table(s) - FOX 52 (talk) 21:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm for the use of images. In my opinion, such edits and removal of images should be done by consensus on the article talk page. Faraz (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Like many WikiProjects, this Project seeks to apply consistent standards across articles. The whole point of this is to avoid repeating the same old blow-by-blow arguments on every darn talk page concerned. The use of images in lists of aircraft was discussed and rejected a long time ago. Consensus has just reaffirmed that rejection. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:47, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
If indeed that is the case, I do not understand why do the following articles still use the image format?
on and on...
Why are they not being edited in a similar manner? Faraz (talk) 17:22, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
They will be. Just no-one has got to them yet. I'm going to look at the Indian one now but probably won't get as far as re-arranging columns this time. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:35, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Images alongside the list tables[edit]

We are still seeing columns of images alongside the list tables. This is terrible, as they rely on a wide browser window. On mobile devices or if you simply narrow your desktop browser it collapses into an unusable mess. For example try narrowing your browser window while viewing List of aircraft of the Swiss Air Force. These images are not intended to align with the table rows but just stack arbitrarily downwards. IMHO they serve no sensible purpose and should be summarily deleted. Or, do folks think they are worthwhile galleries and should be found another home as per WP:GALLERY? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:37, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

We dont want to encourage galleries as I believe the current thinking is that the link to the relevant category on commons is all that is needed. Some representive images of current aircraft in the air force articles do not do any harm but as you say not alongside the table as is makes the mobile view hard to comprehend, not sure they are needed in the stand-alone list articles which can use the commons category. MilborneOne (talk) 17:46, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Just link to commons in these cases to avoid a formatting mess under narrow browser settings. - Ahunt (talk) 20:30, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
One image at the start should be sufficient - galleries are prone to accretion problems and any limit on their size would be arbitrary and prone to starting arguments. At the same time the tables should have the text wrap disabled as they make tables hard to read on narrow displays.NiD.29 (talk) 20:52, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
If you have an image or two that end up next to a table, then so be it. This whole brew ha-ha was regarding having images inside the tables - FOX 52 (talk) 17:48, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, only images inside the tables like some of the tables shown above. -Fnlayson (talk) 18:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
It is now over two weeks since this sub-topic was started. As I see it we have:
For these images: 1
No preference: 0
Against these images: 4
No view expressed: 1
The "for" vote is based on a "why not?" argument. The "against" votes are based on usability, especially for Mobile. This appears to me to offer a clear consensus. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:12, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Are lists in main articles different from lists with their own article?[edit]

Just to clarify: all this applies to lists included in main articles as well as pages created just for the list. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:53, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

No, the main articles I believe should not be included. Were going to have change every article so the work with smart phones? Granted I don't to see a massive galleries, but a few images pertaining to the subject should be ok FOX 52 (talk) 17:52, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
This whole discussion has been about lists, location unspecified, i.e. whether or not they occupy a whole article or a section in more general article. Check out the title of this thread, it says nothing about location. And there has been nothing said which generally excludes the main articles as you suggest. And anyway, I don't see how a list in a section differs in any way from a list hogging a whole article. The mobile viewing issue is exactly the same and the eye candy issues inside the table are exactly the same. And we don't want people going, "I'll keep this list in the main article so I can justify its pretties." — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:12, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
And you specified "regarding the use of images in tables listing" we use images in articles to illustrate to the subject matter, not because it's "eye candy" - FOX 52 (talk) 18:26, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
I fail to see how this is relevant to the distinction between lists tables in articles and list tables in sections. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:19, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
I too had assumed the discussion was treating these inventory tables the same whether a [relatively] short section of a general article on a nation's air force or a long standalone article. It might be different though if it was just a "stack" of images alongside a bulleted list of links. How does that come across in mobile view? GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:52, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
I notice on (at least on my smart phone) is every image whether in a paragraph or next to a table is they stack up no matter what, which seems to be an issue for smarts phones in general (and that seems to be the problem for smart phones on any website) - FOX 52 (talk) 20:58, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

So far we have 2:1 that all lists should have the same rules. The argument that "we will have to change a lot more pages" is not valid - Wikipedia is here for its readers' convenience not its editors'. But I am being repeatedly reverted, so I'd like a stronger consensus one way or the other. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:07, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Not really sure what the problem here is - if a list is within an article it should follow the same rules for the same reasons, however any urge to add images can readily be taken care of elsewhere in the same article.NiD.29 (talk) 17:40, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
Theses list should have the same information and appearance it doesnt matter if they are still in the main article or have been moved into a sub-article. MilborneOne (talk) 11:19, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Table styling[edit]

In general, there is no reason to add styling, whether CSS or HTML, to tables. It can conflict with the skin/theme selected by the visitor and in turn this can affect accessibility. MOS:TABLES says that "Deviations from standard [styling] ... should not be used gratuitously." I have seen no justification for any such custom styling on any of the lists I have seen. Has anybody else? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:05, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

No - and the standard wikitables adds its own styling - centering and bolding column headers and giving those cells a coloured background. The only variation I have found useful is to highlight those aircraft still in service with another colour. Neither alignment (L-R or T-B) is usually needed, especially with the images gone, nor is any other colouring needed (as some lists have every second entry using a coloured background, but that in turn makes updates more difficult, and it usually results in a mishmash with skiped spacing and missing some of the coloured bars).NiD.29 (talk) 17:46, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Lack of involvement of other projects in discussion[edit]

I came here following recent edits to the Royal Australian Air Force article (which incidentally I have no opinion about). I was intrigued by the edit summary which stated "per Project consensus" and since I'd noticed no discussion at WP:MILHIST I assumed it must of been a WP:AVIATION initiative that was being referred to. Judging by the length of this thread I can see considerable effort has gone into attempting to develop agreement on some sort of standardization, which I accept does seem advantageous. That said I can't help but wonder why you didn't involve the regular MILHIST editors of many of these articles in the discussion, given that as near as I can tell that project was not notified of it. Of cse no one project "owns" any article and WP:AVIATION is as good a place as any to discuss this matter, but surely if you are attempting to develop consensus then all interested parties should at least be informed to give them the opportunity to participate. Anotherclown (talk) 12:21, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I think that when this discussions started it was more about understanding and applying current consensus, not reforging it. If that seems to be changing then I guess you are right and we should be widening it. Bar the odd over-enthusiastic edit (and I don't rule myself out in that), do you think we have got to that point yet? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:27, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Gday, unsure to be honest as its a very long thread (!) and I don't watchlist many air force pages (only a few that interest me and that I have some knowledge about). At any rate I can see how discussions tend to evolve over time etc and become more involved than they were originally intended to be. FWIW I posted a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history last night in case any interested editors in that project were unaware of the discussion here (as I was) and wished to participate. All the best. Anotherclown (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Rows, columns and column headings[edit]

There is a fair variety of table layouts out there. I'd like to see them standardised so that when I visit a list the layout is familiar and I can quickly find what I want.

Firstly, as somebody else said it needs to be sortable. This means that all those clever subdivisions for different variants have to go: Either a variant gets its own row or it gets lumped in with the main entry. Also, long text boxes have to go, which I think has already been agreed is a good thing as they are just a sign that the text needs cutting back.

Next, here are some example sets of column headings:

Table 1. Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation/Style guide/Lists specifies these for multinational lists in generic articles:

Type Country Date Role Status Description

Table 2. Several major nations' sites use this:

Aircraft Origin Role Version Number Notes

Table 3a. Other pages use variants of these labels and may include dates along the lines of:

Name Origin Role Variant Service entry Retired Quantity Note

Table 3b. Or, in similar vein:

Name Origin Role Variant Service period In service Comment

I think we should use the generic headings where possible. With no separate funnies for variants, this information can be included in the Type column. A single column is enough for service periods. So I'd suggest:

Table 4.

Type Origin Role Service Number Notes
Most forces are split into current and historical lists. For current craft the Service is the date of introduction, for historical craft it is the from-to dates.

Any views? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:43, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Your Table 4 seems to include all that is required although the term "Service" may be confusing to some readers. MilborneOne (talk) 18:47, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I wondered about "Service date" and "Service dates" respectively for current and historical lists. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:49, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree on most points but I would also like to see (eventually) all the current and historic tables merged, with a retirement date set to n/a for those that are current, and a suitable highlighting to make them easy to distinguish from retired aircraft. For sortability, the dates should be in two columns. Origin is ambiguous when one country designed it, but another built it - better to choose where it was built or where it was designed, so multiple country names aren't needed - or have the country it was designed first, and where it was built in bracket afterwards. Variant info should be restricted to the broadest designation that covers all aircraft for a given role, so no block numbers and no hyphenated sub-variants so as to limit the number of entries for each type. To provide the number currently in service, the current number can follow the number used in brackets. Also all notes and references should be in the last column, aka...
Type (variant) Origin (built) Primary role Operational Retired Number used
and notes
Aircraft C-77B US (US) transport 1979 n/a 5 (4) [6]
Aircraft Mk.III UK (UK) bomber 1936 1943 70 [5][note 1]
Aircraft Mk.V UK (Canada) trainer 1942 1965 510 [5][note 2]

Ought to be "Number" not "#" though. To also include the right-pondian readers.GraemeLeggett (talk) 05:32, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
NP, Updated...NiD.29 (talk) 06:25, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

List of rotorcraft[edit]

Wondering if we have any editors who plan to tackle red linked aircraft in this article (List of rotorcraft). And are any non-notable worth keeping? - FOX 52 (talk) 19:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

In some cases I suspect that typos might be at fault "coaxil" not being a word I am familiar with. Even if the link would produce a non-notable article, the item would still need to be listed GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:00, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Good point, I didn't think typos might be a problem - I'll have a look see FOX 52 (talk) 18:35, 8 July 2015 (UTC) removed from External links section of Western Air Express Flight 7, due to appearance on SURBL blacklist.[edit]

Western Air Express Flight 7 used to have an external link to a page on the crashed aircraft on Ed Coates photo archive site, This was removed a few days ago because the site now appears on SURBL's malware list, even though the site still appears to be up in its normal form. Does anyone know anything about the reliability of SURBL's malware reporting or whether Ed Coates should be informed of this? --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 19:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it can be addressed here Wikipedia:Contact us - Subjects - cheers FOX 52 (talk) 21:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Need comments for 2-month-old FL candidate[edit]

Timeline of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 is currently the oldest Featured List candidate and at risk of the nomination being rejected for lack of comments/support. I've addressed concerns from one editor, but the FLC hasn't received much in the way of a review. Would some editors please take a few minutes to comment on its FLC page? Thanks! I'd like to turn MH370 into a good topic: Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (GA), Timeline of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (current FL candidate), Analysis of Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 satellite communications (current GA nominee), Joint Agency Coordination Centre (current GA nominee), Search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 (75% of work done towards GA), & Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 unofficial disappearance theories (only article that needs lots of work). AHeneen (talk) 20:44, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

I'll take a look tomorrow if I get a chance. I guess the relatively controversial topic means it's turning people off... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:56, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Accident reports from Embry Riddle site[edit]

I found a collection of accident reports at*/* - Avsaf was at one time controlled by Embry Riddle Aeronautical University and this is its collection of accident reports.

I already added the Canadian ones but there may be others which aren't yet in Wikipedia articles WhisperToMe (talk) 20:50, 21 July 2015 (UTC)