Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Beauty Pageants

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WikiProject Beauty Pageants (Rated NA-class)
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Beauty Pageants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of beauty pageants, their contestants and winners on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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In reviewing the information on a Miss USA pageant my mother was in, I noted there are 0 citations for any of the information on that page, and it appears this is normal for pageants from about 30+ years ago. Is that acceptable?

In particular, my mother remembers some of the information on the page referencing her year differently. Some of the information she spoke about would seem to be noteworthy, but without citation, I'm reluctant to change that page at all. I'd feel more confortable also if citation standards were higher on these pageants as I feel a little digging at newspaper archives would yield much more accurate and complete information. - jeffwinchell

Pageant sourcing is awful and I believe that many pageant pages are full of errors. I see information changed from one uncited "fact" to another uncited "fact" all the time. I fear both versions are wrong. Legacypac (talk) 05:43, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Miss Grand Indonesia[edit]

Miss Grand Indonesia is a brand new article, but I have some concerns about the content being original research. See Talk:Miss Grand Indonesia#Original research / synthesis. Somebody with more experience and knowledge about pageants taking a look would be appreciated. -- Whpq (talk) 00:12, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Expert attention[edit]

This is a notice about Category:Beauty Pageant articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. There might be as few as one page in the category, or zero if someone has removed the expert request tag from the page.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  16:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Formation of actual guidelines for articles[edit]

I've been contributing to this project for awhile, and of all the projects on Wikipedia I've participated in, WikiProject Beauty Pageants has been one of the most disorganized. I think that it's about time we create some notability and manual of style guidelines for articles.

Some of the ideas I have include:

  • Notability is only bestowed upon pageant contestants who win one of the Big Four international beauty pageantsMiss Universe, Miss World, Miss International, or Miss Earth, win a national qualifying pageant for one of the two major Big Four international pageants – Miss Universe or Miss World – assuming there are enough references to properly source said article, win a different non-qualifying but relevant national pageant such as Miss America, or if a non-winner has numerous sources demonstrating why they are notable in another way.
  • Notability is only bestowed on individual editions of the Big Four international beauty pageants (unless reliable sources begin promoting another international pageant as major) or major national pageants such as (but not limited to) Miss USA, Miss America, Miss France, Miss Brasil, etc. What can determine what makes a national pageant major is if sources for it exist.
  • If these guidelines are agreed upon, I would propose mass deletion of articles that do not follow these notability guidelines. While there are numerous, some that come to mind are Miss Universe Mongolia 2018, Miss Multinational 2017, Miss Ukraine Universe 2018, and a number of contestants from various pageants who either would not be notable according to these guidelines, or are extensively undersourced and sources do not exist to help the article.
  • On contestant articles, I am against separating each pageant they've ever competed in into its own subheading, as this takes up so much unnecessary space, and instead believe all pageants should be simply under a "Pageantry" heading. If there is a lot of information to cover for one single pageant, then a subheading can be created. In the infobox, "Major competitions" should only include major national and international pageants they competed in – meaning one of the big four international pageants, a national qualifier for Miss Universe or Miss World, or a major non-qualifying national pageant. If they have never competed in a major national or international pageant, they probably don't deserve an article or are more notable for something else. State pageants and minor (inter)national pageants should not be included. However in "Title", any titles they won can be included.
  • On individual pageant edition articles, the "Notes" section for contestants needs major guidelines. I propose that if they have become relevant in some other sense (such as Savannah Chrisley being a cast member on Chrisley Knows Best or DeAnna Johnson being a contestant on The Voice) then this can be mentioned in the notes section. Additionally, if they held a previous title that is notable, such as a qualifier for Miss Teen USA or a national qualifier for a different Big Four international beauty pageant, but non-notable titles should not be included. Additionally, I am leaving room for other notes to be added if a number of reliable sources deem them relevant to the contestant (such as, for example: being the first titleholder of a certain race or sexual orientation). Being born in a different country is not something notable enough to be included, immigration is not a crazy concept.

If you have any comments on the guidelines I proposed, or would like to propose your own guidelines for discussion, we can discuss here. I am pinging a number of frequent WikiProject Beauty Pageants editors for their thoughts. Hopefully we can organize this WikiProject, it's much needed and unfair to the girls we're writing about. @NewYorkActuary: @CJinoz: @Ejgreen77: @Legacypac: @Art 281:

{ [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 19:00, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

@NewYorkActuary: @CJinoz: @Ejgreen77: @Legacypac: @Art 281: { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 02:09, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm, thinking about this. Excluding State winners is a great start. In nearly all cases rhe sate winners go off to other non-notable careers leaving WP:BLP1E type pages. Legacypac (talk) 03:46, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for tagging me on this post, I usually only focus on the 2 main international pageants Miss Universe and Miss World articles. As far as individual contestants Wikipedia articles I really don't edit those because I feel like it's wasting my time. They are poorly written and sometimes are so short I don't even think it should qualify as an article. However, I am more than happy to get on board to come up with guidelines for individual contestants Wikipedia articles. Art 281 (talk) 03:53, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

@Legacypac: @Art 281: Sorry for not answering for so long, I didn't see that anyone actually answered me. Art, I agree with what you said regarding individual contestants, and that's why I think major reform is necessary. According to these notability guidelines I have proposed, those individual contestant articles that seem unworthy of even having an article should be deleted or redirected. WikiProject Beauty Pageants has become my dominant focus on Wikipedia in the last year or so, but the project is so unorganized and overrun by vandalism, so I'd love if we can work together to create and enforce some guidelines to turn this project around. Not only for ourselves, but for the girls that we're writing about. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 05:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Standard symbols[edit]

At New Zealand at major beauty pageants, I saw that usage of the × and x was inconsistent, and changed the former (the non-standard-keyboard "times" symbol) to the latter (the letter "x"). However, I now see that usage in other articles in Category:Nations at beauty pageants is also inconsistent. I'm guessing the symbol was originally used instead of the letter for aesthetic reasons (i.e. it is vertically centered), but as the MOS points out (somewhere), many/most editors don't recognize the distinction and end up using the letter instead, causing the current (though subtle) mess.

I propose that the letter should be used instead of the symbol. Thoughts? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 15:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

@AlanM1: Personally I would use Template:N/A filled in with "Did not compete". { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 05:30, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
@Jjj1238: Thanks. I went with {{N/a}} in its default form, and cleaned up some of the other markup. Similar work could be done on other similar articles, probably via templates to make it easier/consistent/changeable. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 02:21, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Unknown contestant name[edit]

The notation, ( * ) "unknown contestant name" appears in a handful of articles at Category:Nations at beauty pageants, like New Zealand at major beauty pageants, but other than that article, in which I just used it, appears unused (i.e. all the contestant names are known/used). It's unclear whether it's supposed to mean literally ( * ) or just the asterisk * is to be used. Since it is so rare, should I just remove the notation altogether and use (name unknown) in the one instance needed? —[AlanM1(talk)]— 15:45, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Major need of cleanup[edit]

I have come across so many of these articles that are only sourced to say Instagram, that I am despairing of ever getting a modicum of cleanup. Wikipedia has so many under sourced articles and such a slow deletion process that ever making progress against the behemoth at times seems inpossible.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)