Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing

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WikiProject Boxing (Rated Project-class)
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Golden Gloves champions[edit]

Is being the national Golden Gloves champion enough to show notability? I was looking at the article on Ples Gilmore and I don't see anything else that shows notability.Sandals1 (talk) 22:22, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Never has been.PRehse (talk) 22:32, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Lineal titles[edit]

This bullshit has spread out across many articles following Álvarez, Fury and Mikey Garcia's recent fights, so it's time for centralised discussion to be held here. The lineal championship, as currently described on WP, cannot be allowed to remain on record tables, succession boxes, and lead sections. This is because the list article's primary sources are CBZ and the TBRB, both of which contradict each other regularly, leading to myriad interpretations by every man and their dog. In particular, the credibility of CBZ should be in serious question due to how they've handled the Pacquiao/lineal welterweight situation post-Bradley III. The notion that Horn, and thereby Crawford, is the current lineal welterweight champion is laughable. But again, that's just an interpretation.

The lack of unanimity regarding "who is the lineal champion" means that the entire premise of these intangible, pseudo titles on WP fails WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:V. At the most, lineal titles could be mentioned in the article body along with detailed and well-sourced rationales from boxing media outlets (e.g., "considered by some sources to be the lineal champion of his division; other sources disagree"), but I maintain that they absolutely should not be anywhere stat-based sections such the abovementioned record tables, succession boxes and lead. The [insert sanctioning body] champion in a given weight class is set in stone—lineal champions are not, and never will be.

The question goes:

Should lineal titles be removed from record tables, succession boxes, and lead sections? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:21, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

  • Support. Remove it from everywhere. It's not a real title. --Michig (talk) 20:23, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. Has to stay everywhere for me. It is the oldest title in existance, you could actually argue that it is infact the most prestigious title along with The Ring. Just because you don't get a belt from a corrupt sanctioning body it doesn't mean that it is not real. Before the sanctioning bodies came along we only had the world (lineal) title from the 1880s and then The Ring title came along in the 1920s, we didn't see the alphabet titles until the 1960s and the lineal championship was still called the world championship up until that time, are you saying all the guys that held the title before this didn't hold a real title and therefore were not champions? How can it not be real when it would been either one of two championships or indeed the only championship title you could fight for until the 60s? The problem today is we have too many sanctioning bodies with too many different titles and therefore too many champions in each division, being a champion doesn't necessarily mean you're the best or that you've even fought any of the best anymore. These days you have hold multiple titles to be considered the best and a real champion and even then when a division doesn't have a lineal or The Ring champion it means that the true number 1 in the division is unknown. Today The Ring and lineal titles being vacant for a fight means the determined top two in a division are fighting to determine who is the best so it is actually very significant also because if a fighter holds both those titles they are without question the no1 in their division. Meanwhile its possible to fight for and therefore possible to win an alphabet title and not even be the 10th best fighter at the weight. The lineal championship represents a time when there was one world title and therefore one world champion so it showed who the best was and who was a real champion and it still does that today. Personally I do not think it is too difficult to discern who the lineal champion is in each division (if there is one) and on the occasions when it is in question then I'm sure it won't too hard for us to reach a conclusion. Lorenzo9378 (talk) 01:14, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
That simply isn't true. As far back as the 1930s the major world titles were sanctioned by bodies such as the NYSAC and the NBAA, often with different boxers recognised as world champions at the same weight, and also sometimes other boxers recognised as world champions in Europe. The Ring title held little importance until recently, and the 'lineal title' isn't officially determined by anyone, nor was it discussed much for most of the modern (post-1900) history of boxing. --Michig (talk) 05:38, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Comment"Has to stay everywhere" is non-negotiable, and I'm going by the hard-and-fast WP rules listed above—WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, and WP:V. "We" aren't making this up. Because there are so many interpretations of who a lineal champion is, such material simply cannot be included in tables, etc. Granted, I see no reason why the lineal championship article itself cannot stay, as long as it is made up solely of prose, with a variety of reliable sources discussing the discrepancies and disagreements that the so-called "title" has faced over the decades.
However, the inclusion of them in list- or stat-related sections cannot and will not stay for much longer, and that ambiguous table in the aforementioned article will be gone very soon—it goes against the entire ethos of WP. It would be utterly ridiculous to put something like this in Fury's record table: "Defending lineal heavyweight title according to [insert opinion/agenda here]; not defending lineal heavyweight according to TBRB and CBZ." That stuff can be hashed out in the prose, where it belongs. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:01, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
In its current revision, even the lineal championship article itself acknowledges the failings of such an intangible concept: "Since the modern lineal championship is merely a notional title tracked by fans, there is no money or organization to arrange a box-off to fill a vacant title, and there may not be consensus on who the top contenders are". To reiterate: we cannot include within tables and succession boxes something that does not even exist. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 19:37, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Comment - Yes they may been sanctioned by bodies such as those you mention at the time but the sanctioning bodies were still of no real significance until the 60s when the WBA and WBC came along, (in fact the NBA became WBA for instance) and as I said, it was was still called the 'world' championship/title until that time no matter who sanctioned it. The 'lineal' title wasn't discussed much back then for the same reason, it was still called the 'world' title. As for the Fury lineal champion thing, we already discussed it on his talk page and reached a conclusion. Obviously it would be ridiculous to have that in Fury's record table as you would never put that anyway because either they are the champion or they aren't but as we agreed he cannot still be the lineal champ after two and half years out. However, if you try and remove the lineal status from a legitimate lineal champion like Usyk for example then I think you will encounter problems (and I don't mean from me). But if you're thinking removing all traces of the lineal title will solve any edit warring issues, then think again. Michig has already tried to remove the only mention of the lineal title from the Wilder-Fury article, despite the fact I did say former champion not current, and was countered by a user who regularly updates various fighters articles. It seems the three of us are the only ones discussing it here, but if you try and make this change without consulting any of the users who reguarly update various figthers and fight pages, then good luck I guess. Lorenzo9378 (talk) 00:42, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
There were multiple world champions at the same weight before the WBA and WBC came along because different sanctioning bodies recognized different champions - I've read plenty of newspaper articles from the era which discuss this. When I removed 'lineal' from the Wilder-Fury article it stated that Fury was the current lineal champion, not former - here's the diff. --Michig (talk) 07:19, 2 October 2018 (UTC) One example I came across recently was from 1942 when the NYSAC agreed to recognize the winner of the Jackie Paterson-Peter Kane fight as the world flyweight champion, while the NBA(A) stuck with Little Dado as world champion. Another was when Freddie Mills beat Len Harvey - Harvey was at the time recognized by the BBBofC as world champion, but Mills didn't value the title as he regarded Gus Lesnovich as the genuine world champion. There was certainly one widely-recognized world champion most of the time, but there were still multiple world champions, and often dispute as to who should be considered world champion. --Michig (talk) 07:45, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
"[I]f you try and remove the lineal status from a legitimate lineal champion like Usyk"'—Usyk, Fury, Ali, Stevenson.. doesn't matter. Their lineal statuses (or lack thereof; see Pacquiao in 2016–2017) can be explained in the lead or article body where they belong, with multiple refs explaining who considers them lineal champion, and by what definition.
"[I]f you're thinking removing all traces of the lineal title"—Not all traces; just from the stat-based sections like record tables and succession boxes. For Fury's current status, it can worded something like how I suggested at the top of this discussion: "Fury is considered by some sources to be the reigning lineal heavyweight champion based on his victory over Klitschko; however, his two-year period of inactivity and sporadic announcements of retirement have caused debate over his status as lineal champion."
..There ya go. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
It looks like you've softened your position on removing any mention of lineal titles from the lead. Including it in the lead shouldn't be automatic just because CBZ or someone else called them the lineal champion, but it belongs there in some articles (for example: Michael Spinks and George Foreman).--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't know much about titles from the early days of boxing, but it looks like The Ring's champions are as good as any, from when they started. I'm open to discussion about what we could do to recognize world champions before 1922.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Support removing it from record tables and succession boxes. It's an opinion, not a fact.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:45, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
@Michig "One recognised world champion", there you said it yourself. There may have occasionally been other champions in other insignificant sanctioning bodies but the lineal/world title represents the line of succession from this one recognised world champion you mention. And okay, you removed the only mention of the lineal title instead of changing it back from 'former' to 'current' even though the conclusion we reached was that he is not the current lineal champion, not to remove all mention of it. You can also see I called him the former champion and a random IP changed it to current.
@Mac I simply don't agree with removing it from the lead sections or record tables and succession boxes and I know I'll be far from the only one. To take it out of the record table implies it's not on the line even when it unquestionably is, like in Usyk-Gassiev or Klitschko-Fury for instance and to say the lineal title wasn't on the line in those fights would just be plain wrong in my opinion. To say it is not a real title when many people and media involved in the sport are mentioning it on a daily basis makes no sense. I actually stumbled across a new source for the lineal title here (https://www.linealboxingchampion.com/) which looks a good website but considers Fury to still be the current lineal champion on the basis you cannot be stripped of or vacate the title unless you retire or move to another weight class. Fury by his own admission did retire but changed his mind, so does that mean his retirement was never official therefore he didn't vacate the title? By their admission the answer is yes but by their policy you could just as easily say the title is vacant until the no1 and no2 fight for it which is the conclusion we reached, I think it just depends whether or not you consider Fury's 30 month lay off as a retirement. Either way I recommend having a look at their policy for the lineal championship because other than that I can't argue with any of it and it's defintely worth a look I'd be interested to see what you think. Lorenzo9378 (talk) 20:02, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Looks like a website/blog set up by a fan to me, with no evidence of satisfying WP:RS, and this is the real problem here, there is no official body that decides who the lineal champion is, so it is impossible for us to state that someone is the lineal champion without qualifying it with according to x. We would need a governing body awarding the title and reliable sources to state that someone is the lineal champion. --Michig (talk) 20:19, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
Lorenzo, you've highlighted exactly what I've been talking about since I opened this thread—complete lack of agreement across mainstream media and boxing publications. "Fury is! Isn't! Is! Isn't! Is! Isn't! Is! Isn't! Is!".. Please see some sense and realise that such a shaky premise fails WP:OR automatically, and thus means there is no place for lineal titles in factual sections such as the record tables and succession boxes. There's no way around it.
WP core policy—that being reliable sources in agreement of a fact—isn't going to change just because some boxing fans are debating a pseudo title. If Fury's disputed lineal status means it cannot be included in the aforementioned sections, that it can only mean it needs to be zapped from all other boxers' articles for consistency. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:21, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I think that LBC website is no worse of a source for the lineal title than TBRB or CBZ, and I don't think it matters that they are not sanctioning bodies, the problem is that they don't always agree. So in the case of disputed lineal status, we can reach an agreement on here. The lineal championship decides itself, whether there is a source for it or not. It is either the man who beat the man or the winner of a fight between the no1 and no2 to become the man. I think I highlighted the lack of agreement only on the Fury lineal situation not the lineal championship as a whole, and don't get me wrong I can see the point both of you are making, but you can also understand the Fury lineal situation is pretty much unique. I previously stated that I don't think it is difficult to discern who the lineal champion is (if any) in each division is and I stand by that even if you exclude the Fury case, but we reached a conclusion on that and I stand by that too. Either a fighter is the lineal champion or they're not, we agreed Fury can no longer be classed lineal champ after that length lay off so at this point the lineal title would only be mentioned in his record table for the Klitschko fight, I don't see why it should be removed for that fight so obviously don't see why it should be zapped from all relevant record tables and succession boxes either. Removing the lineal title from the record tables would mean removing the world heavyweight title from any record tables prior to the 60s, and this is something I just cannot agree to. Lorenzo9378 (talk) 03:09, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
World titles prior to the 1960s were awarded by recognized sanctioning bodies. They are not in any way similar to the putative lineal title. It isn't up to editors to reach a consensus on what the truth is, we need to reflect facts cited to reliable sources. Personally, I wouldn't give any weight to the TBRB or the CBZ either. --Michig (talk) 09:03, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Listing the lineal championships, I believe, is an important information because it identifies a division's one true champion. I also noticed that one of the main cause of this issue is the difference between the main sources namely CBZ and TBRB as they listed differently these past 2 years. I learned that the reason, according to Tracy Callis, whom I inquired to last March, why CBZ's list has been outdated is because the person "keeping up" the list "has departed" and that no one "inherited" the task. But just recently, the list is now updated and recognizes TBRB champions and their previous abdications.
Here are the recent updates from CBZ. The update includes the following:
  • Heavyweight: Fury's reign now reflects that of TBRB's.
  • Cruiserweight: Usyk is added.
  • Light Hevyweight: Gvozdyk is added, Stevenson's reign is updated as well.
  • Super Middleweight: Ward's reign now reflects that of TBRB's.
  • Middleweight: Alvarez's reign now reflects that of TBRB's (his abdication in 2017 and recapturing this year).
  • Welterweight: Pacquiao's reign is updated and now reflects that of TBRB's (he retired).
  • Junior Welterweight: Crawford and Mikey Garcia are added.
  • Junior Bantamweight: Sor Rungvisai is added.
  • Flyweight: Gonzalez's reign now reflects that of TBRB's.
I also believe that Fury's recent claim just adds to the confusion and is a distraction. The fact that he announced abdication, whether he retracted or not, is an statement of abdication. As per the traditional rule, once a boxer vacates and returns he has to fight his way back to the top contention and fight the other top contender. PinoyBoxing11 (talk) 16:44, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Non-compromised Pendulum[edit]

I have made meaningful changes in the article Draft:Non-compromised Pendulum. However, it can moved back to mainspace only by user with sysop rights. I kindly ask administrators to review the article for the possibility of moving it to main space. Aspireforintelligence (talk) 08:49, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Deontay Wilder vs. Tyson Fury fight card section[edit]

Feel free to answer the fight card question at Talk:Deontay Wilder vs. Tyson Fury. Naue7 (talk) 00:22, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Reliable sources?[edit]

I see a lot of sources being cited in boxing articles that have (in my view) dubious reliability. I thought it would be useful to have a discussion of whether we believe the following satisfy WP:RS or whether they are really just glorified fansites that should not be cited:

There are probably several similar sites that I haven't listed. These seem on a par with the many music webzines that we generally don't accept as reliable sources. The fact that they may list 'staff' isn't enough in itself. If any of these genuinely satisfy WP:RS, all well and good, we can all use them, if not, they need to be removed. I also believe we need to consider again whether Boxrec.com is treated as a reliable source suitable to be cited. It is often cited, and while it's certainly a useful site (and convenient when other sources can't be found), it is essentially community-produced content and often contains errors. --Michig (talk) 18:56, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

I think nothing is wrong using articles and journals from those sites as long as they're not opinion-based articles such as editorials, commentary or analysis/predictions or whatever articles not fact-based. PinoyBoxing11 (talk) 06:56, 12 December 2018 (UTC)