Wikipedia talk:WikiProject British Columbia/Archive/Archive May 2007

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Fabulous BC gov map resource

I knew ther was a central link for this somewhere, although I've seen bits and pieces of it, and stuff using the same technology on native-language distribution/'territories' (not territories, as they point out on that page, which once I'll find again I'll return here to link also, as it's quite useful and in a way kinda beautiful in an applied-techie-using-government-boringness-makes-good kind of way; the main link is in a quote from an old email I got while researching the Tulameen, British Columbia article; the writer is one of the refs on that page, the guy who owns GeoQwest Adventures (no it's not a spam link on that page; it's the best ref I found!):

One great site that is loaded with technical stuff regarding mining is done by the BC Geological survey called the Mapplace. During the 1980-90�s when field work budgets were axed, the geologists became computer wienies. Almost everything know to mining has been put in thei GIS style site.
Although a bit technical, the user can search any showing recorded to the government (+95%). A decent guideline is that the more text there is on a showing, the more significant the history. If you ignore a lot of the geology, mineral and technical stuff, some good, factual history hides in the text.
The critical box to click is the �Mineral Inventory Layers� . It will give you a map of BC with every showing, producer, past producer, prospect, etc�all 12389 of them. Window into your area of interest and click on a showing.

He's meaning in reference to the take on various mines or other things that didn't quite get to be mines; gonna be useful for history as well as geology/placename/georaphy articles in some cases. But there's a lot more than mining-fun you can have with this; infrareds of the NASA landsats are available, as are the orthometric imaging (sat radar, looks like a bw photo) and two different sets of contour intervals (not self-generating trim materials), all Indian Reserve boundariers, mineral potentials areas, and HEAPS MORE just go through all the toggles on the left; and fun interposing things to see what's in where; got some revealing stuff when I compared mineral potentials to what else I know around Bralorne-D'Arcy and re the "South Chilcotin"; seem to be some funny errors like a native community where I know for SURE there isn't one (high in the Shulaps Range...maybe a hunting camp acknowledged somehow or someone lives up there part time, but I've never heard of it - I know all the hippies down at the bottom below there....). Anyway, the nice thing with these maps is they don't automatically have copyright display on them, and since it's public documentation that's being covered I'm not sure any of the generated maps could be copyrightedd even if they wanted to. But it's easier than that; there's as I said no copyright tag on these images as there are on Basemap/LRDWC images and other government stuff - so you can pull screen-captures here, edit the material, change the colours and re-text it maybe; gonna be good for e.g. road and river/lake outlines. Also of BIG interest are the LRMP boundaries, which switch 'em on and have a good look at how much sense they make as regional breakdowns; the reason is their evolution was influenced by the bioregionalists who are big on using cohesive watershed areas and identifiable social regions as boundaries/defining factors. Also neat to do was to turn on all the Indian reserves/communities, then look at the whole province to get an idea of distribution; or, in the far North, to realize how few there are. It's all scaleable, looks eminently usable, maps made from it using the NASA infrared (reduce saturation to near-grey might work well) or just the basic outlines - park boundaries!! municipal boundaries!! - and because you've done and reworked the base public domain data by altering it, their copyright doesn't apply even IF they recognized, say, the particular vectors/rasters of a river outline.....and they won't be looking, but I'm sure I'm right about changing-data making new work; it applies in other fields, too.....anyway, thought I'd better make a heads-up; I gotta get back to housecleaning but am tempted to play with MapPlace. Maybe I'll make some sample maps off it later....all needing maps for their articles please check out this system,, if you have any requests please let me know, or we'll start a list and maybe Qyd or someone else might want to play with it too.Skookum1 00:06, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice find. I admit when I saw "fabulous" in the section heading (I equated it with "fantastic" for whatever reason) I assumed it was a bunch of Fantasy Garden maps or something ;) Kidding aside, I remember hearing of this 'map place' while at my previous job, but didn't realize it offered so much. I'm sure it will serve the project well. On an unrelated topic, I just disambigged 'Shuswap', which was being directed (by User:Bearcat) not unreasonably to Secwepemc. But with the electoral district, and the regional usage had to create it. If there's anything to add/remove from it, feel free. Later.Keefer4 | Talk 00:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The model there are the Squamish, Lillooet, Chilcotin, Okanagan, Nanaimo, Comox and Nootka pages, all of which are dabs for the English-spelled versions of native people-names so there's your precdent, although I don't think bearcat will quibble.Skookum1 21:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry; Nootka should be a disambig page but still redirecs to Nuu-chah-nulth; I don't have time right now.....later maybe.Skookum1 21:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
And "fantastic" used to mean horrifying, nightmarish....lanuage is funny enit? Anyway, I went to the main mapplace directory looking for a First Nations languages map made with it - really cool, as you'll see when I find it, way nicer looking than the main mapplace thing, shows what can be done with the technology when a designer works with it - and it has a number of interesting local and specialized maps listed; here's the link so check it out; I'll add the Hat Creek link right now, but gotta get out and enjoy that sunshine with some tunes under the open sky.....later.Skookum1 22:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, there's no Hat Creek, British Columbia article, only Hat Creek in to do.....and I think there's got to be two articles, too, Hat Creek (British Columbia) for the tributary of the Bonaparte River, minor though it is (as it's historically notable) and Hat Creek, British Columbia as a placename, usually today associated with the heritage ranch at 97 and 99 although the name includes the valley from there up to Upper Hat Creek, which Lillooeters tend to mean when they say Hat Creek; the "new" one is, old-style, Carquile, or was for a while Cottonwood (Heritage or Guest?) Ranch, aka Lower Hat Creek. Upper Hat Creek more or less begins at the big bend in 99 just at the SE outlet of Marble Canyon; Upper Hat Creek is considered to be in the Lillooet Country, while Lower Hat Creek is obviously Thompson-Bonaparte, and from that end Upper Hat Creek is considered part of that. I'm wondering also if there should be a separate third article on the Hat Creek coal development proposal or whatever the right name would be. the Hat Creek minerals MapPlace link is here since I didn't have a place to put it on the Hat Creek page. Not without a lot of work, and as I said it's sunny outside....Skookum1 22:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Gastown/Old Harbour map, 1929

This is part of a much larger map I trimmed so as to only show all the wharves from Coal Harbour to beyond the Ballantyne Pier, with Keefer/the Viaduct (as it was then) just above the bottom of the frame. Major civic features are shown well and which companies used each dock, e.g. GN, CP, Union Steamships, BC steamships and the rowing and yacht clubs are also shown as well as the BCER terminal; I could have included Great Northern and Canadian National / Pacific Central Station but I'm meaning here to illustrate the Port, and Gastown/Strathcona/Japantown/Chinatown areas, also the DE I guess, and West Hastings and so on; especially appropriate because this was also West Hastings' heyday perhaps....and you'll note City Hall and the Library are still at Main & Hastings. Although a 1929 map I think this one is useful for illustrating Gastown, also maybe History of Vancouver with - any suggestions for colour of the boundary? I've upped the dimensions of this article so the wharf names are readable easily at full scale, hut it's made it a bit fuzzy; if you think too fuzzy let me know and I'll reduce it. I'm going to use {{Canada-pd}} as it's over 50 years old and I believe was pd in the first place, as brochure/tourism material, and there's no evidence it was ever copyrighted in the US (meaning the 100 year rule might/would apply). but dang for now I can't remember where I found it, mabye one of the BCER maps. Oh, here's the image, with no thumbnail, just at fullsize (800px high, 1800 wide)Skookum1 07:39, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Help with/helping busy new BC contributor

And she's a good thing; User:CindyBo has done some amazing work on Barnard's Express, Steamboats of the Upper Fraser River in British Columbia, and now Steamboats of the Skeena River and, atlhough this is just from articles-enountered via the watchlist and not looking at her user contributions, Cataline 'Jean Caux' which I'm here to ask y'all to look at the "name issue" section on its talk page; Cataline was his nickname, Jean Caux his (alleged) real name, but obviously that title/name format's not appropriate but I'm not sure what is; he's most famous as Cataline, and because of the Roman orator of that name the article would have to be Cataline (muleteer) or some such. See comments on Talk:Cataline 'Jean Caux' so I don't just repeat myself here, and also pls see Talk:Steamboats of the Upper Fraser River in British Columbia and Talk:Steamboats of the Skeena River and this on my talkpage. I've invited Cindy to the WikiProject but figured I needed to heads-up others here because of the topic/name/content issues posed by her prodigious productivity....I've been indicating bits of tidy here and there, e.g. references format, stylistic things, but dont' have time to keep p with her, so please folks give her a hand if you can. And some applause too; her articles are really well done.....but obviously there's some name-fixes in need of resolution.Skookum1 07:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

A round of applause is certainly due for the contributions so far. Truly impressive. Welcome to Wikiproject BC, and I look forward to volunteering together.--Keefer | Talk 08:03, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


My pet how-to issue again; I was just looking at some of the redlinks for Similkameen District and others like it and pondering one article-topic issue that such a name presents. In ordinary usage today, it's synonymous with the Similkameen Country and it's 50-50 as to which one is used more historically and currently; "the Similkameen" is by far the most common usage. I've already created articles for Boundary District and Chilcotin District and others (Chilcotin Country might hve been better because of the problem I'm leading up to...) and in some cases such as Cariboo it doesn't seem necessary (Cariboo District is prob a redirect, but the name is similar to the Chilcotin District, no one says it that's way, it's kinda formal even). So there's one historical technicality to deal with when "District" is used, though - this was commonly the contraction for Mining District and/or Land District. In the earliest days the two were synonymous, but the role of the Mining Commissioners, usually styled Gold Commissioner but also Mines Commissioner or Mining Commissioner (more "Commissioner of the XXX Mining District"), became important in the way things were run, so the Cassiar, Stikine, Similkameen, Boundary, and so on were e.g. the Similkameen Mining District, but always referred to as the Similkameen District - because there was no risk of this being confused with a Land District because everyone around then knew that it was part of the Yale Land District, Similkameen Subdivision (or whatever that subdivision is called). Point of all this is, when I create a Similkameen District article, it's occurred to me that it has two separate contexts, and possibly needs two separate articles; one in the sense of the Similkameen Country, "the Similkameen", the other in the sense of the Similkameen Mining District. Geographically they're near the same if not identical but one is an administrative entity and had officers and offices etc; in other areas e.g. Lillooet there's the general district/"Country" sense, the mines/gold district and the Land District, any one of which can be meant by "the Lillooet District". Standard usages/contexts on certain names seem more fixe - Stikine District seems pretty well the Mining District, "the Stikine Country" the entire region, although if you didn't know about the mining district they would seem to be the same. There wasn't a Stikine Land District back then I think; maybe there is now?? Anyway, these name issues have concerned me because in colloquial usage as well as historical contexts there's no standard across regions; i.e. Country vs District, and vs. those cases where it's not necessary, and where even "the" can be dropped, as with Cariboo. This also all in context of possible region categories (which can overlap but seem obvious enough): Category:Cariboo, Category:Chilcotin, Category:Lillooet, Category:Okanagan, Category:East/West Kootenay, Category:Similkameen Category:etc although the "etc" gets complicated and some longer and hyphenated forms might be necessary: Category:Boundary Country, Category:Peace River Block, Category:Fraser Canyon, Category:Omineca-New Caledonia (?), Category:Skeena-Bulkley, Category:Thompson Country, Category:Shuswap, Category:Nicola Country; . Also to note that breaking down Category:Interior of British Columbia into Northern, Southern, Central isn't that obvious, and all those overlap.....Skookum1 22:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

None of these are meant to override RD cats; they are complementary to them and are meant rather as subcats of the Interior and Coast and Island categories. titles in some cases are complicated and may need tweaking: Category:Lillooet would tend to imply the town nowadays so Category:Lillooet Country may need to be the form (NB it includes Pemberton-Port Douglas technically and also the Bridge River; "Bridge River-Lillooet" sounds nice but it's only vintage 1930s, courtesy the Murrays, although the Bridge River is part of the Lillooet Country in ethnographic sense as well as in local sensibility anyway, just as the Tulameen is part of the Similkameen. That area I'll tidy up some before I'm done/gone. BTW in some cases I've dab'd these District or Country names to the river, e.g. you may find [[Similkameen River|Similkameen Country]]; those will need fixing once a "District" article is started; in Similkameen's case I'll go with that, and also in others where there's a coincident name for a mining district, otherwise will try to go with most common usage. This is for stubs; the cats are just fielded here as ideas/proposals.Skookum1 22:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Thanks for helping try to explain the regional category scheme, which is already underway with the parents: Category:Coast of British Columbia (with Category:Vancouver Island,Category:Gulf Islands, and Category:Queen Charlotte Islands as the subcats so far), and Category:Interior of British Columbia. Since we don't have an article on the 'North', haven't done Category:Northern British Columbia yet., and may not if consensus is that it could be split into subs Category:Northern Interior of British Columbia and Category:North Coast and others like the Peace country. The parents will be subdivided into the various regions (as verifiable as we can get them), and as Skookum alluded, there will be (and in fact already have been as in the case of Squamish-Lillooet Regional District, British Columbia, overlaps). These encompass history, geography, people, parks &etc.--Keefer | Talk 22:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Big example of overlap is Thompson Country, which most of is or has also been seen as part of the Cariboo, including even Lytton although to me that's a bit extreme; and exactly where the boundary between the Okanagan and Shuswap is, I couldn't tell ya. Also Fraser Canyon overlaps with others, and parts of the Lillooet Country are in the Cariboo (only the Fraser Canyon parts). It's not like the landscape was laid out by logicians ;-); BTW Category:Lower Mainland and Category:Sunshine Coast seem like no-brainers; also a Central Coast cat might suffice for including Northern Vancouver Island, where there'd be overlaps with the Vancouver Island category anyway, and when necessary with the North Coast of British Columbia cat. As for Central Interior, well, that's anybody's guess; could mean Osoyoos, could mean Williams Lake, some people might use it for PG; to me PG is where the Northern Interior starts, although maybe Quesnel's maybe more the boundary point; but I've heard other people refer to Williams Lake as the Central Interior; in historical terms it seems to be Williams Lake-Kamloops, although the low-latitude perspective of most settlement/awareness here also means people use it to mean Kelowna......Skookum1 22:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Which is why I think it's best we stay away from "Northern Interior", "Southern Interior" if we can and use the historical/geographic/watershed-defined districts, which are fixed and not quite so indefinable, even if they do overlap. I don't think of Cassiar or Atlin or the Stikine as the Northern Interior, e.g. but either as themselves or as ?? "the Far North of BC" maybe? And the Peace Country's always been referred to as being the Interior, which certainly economically/culturally it is, but it's really on the Prairies enit? And also on the border of the Far North proper (what else is "Mile 0 of the Alaska Highway" if not that?) If theres' a Category:Canadian Prairies we'd better keep an eye out for that; should towns and rivers and lakes in the Rockies all get Category:Rocky Mountains do you think (or Category:Canadian Rockies perhaps it is).Skookum1 22:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Similar issues exist if we did Category:Coast Mountains or Category:Selkirk Mountains e.g. - those would tend to imply mountain range/name articles, but we also use them as regional terms here....kind of un-wiki I guess but it's the same issue with, say, Banff or Jasper being in the Category:Canadian Rockies; by default then Revelstoke should be in an equivalent range-category should it exist (which it may never). There's a Category:Cascade Range which has all kinds of non-mountain range/mountain articles in it, though, so Category:Coast Mountains and also a subcat of the Cascades Category:Canadian Cascades perhaps; this implies further geographic categories though, all superfluous and overlapping on others, e.g. Category:Thompson Plateau would be the same, albeit in a different hierarchy, than Category:Nicola Country or Category:Similkameen District or Category:Similkameen or, if someone thinks it's better Category:Similkameen Country; confusion with RDs, mining districts and other administrative-name districts maybe should be avoided - ??Skookum1 22:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I've done a little somewhat hierarchial mark-up on my User:Keefer4/todo.--Keefer | Talk 22:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It just occurred to me that we have a name-issue with Stikine District, which is the official name currently for the non-RD running NW from there to Atlin; thing is most of the traditional Stikine Country/District is in the Skeena RD, whatever it's called, and a chunk is even in the one to the east; anyway Stikine Country solves that problem, other than the parallel/differing usages being needed mention on both pages; The Stikine Country/District and Stikine Mining District were to my knowledge synonymous, unless the latter was laid out on a non-watershed basis.Skookum1 00:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Cariboo Gold Rush

Despite its relative length this page is mostly a crib; I remember adding and changing things from what I originally found, which was pretty much a long stub as I recall; but I wrote it around information from memory and didn't have sources at hand; it doesn't have dates of discovery, bios/refs to Williams and Barker and so many others important to the history of the rush, details of the take and so on; it needs details, and some loving attention (CindyBo are you listening? ;-)); other Cariboo towns like "Old" Quesnel/Quesnellemouthe and lesser-known ones like Bullion, Richfield, Antler and Quesnel Forks also need good articles; all already listed in the ghost towns area of article requests and on thta list. Cariboo strikes me as ultra-important, and I confess to similar shortcomings on Fraser Canyon Gold Rush which I should have spent more time on instead of winging it without specifics, e.g. George Moore or somebody Moore who found the strike at Hill's Bar, the events there, and the unfolding of events could be covered better, likewise the dollar take (gold rush articles all should have that, if it's known) and more figures and as in all cases, maps of some kind (again my bad but I've only got two hands and one computer).Skookum1 00:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

copyright-free map-making jackpot

see this for "all your map-making needs". Government-generated maps, no copyright, build what you need. This is "MapPlace Lite" - you can also make maps with the larger-format/scale MapPlace which has even more variables/toggles. Unlike Basemap, where images generated are copyrighted, these aren't; they're meant to be used in corporate reports etc........fair game.Skookum1 01:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Historical MLAs and cabinet minister subcats; request

Not wanting to make these myself, as wary of trodding on hierarchy-watchers as with other mistakes I've made with cats and such before. Please see Category talk:British Columbia MLAs.Skookum1 18:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Gold Commissioner cats issue

Please see Category talk:Gold Commissioners.Skookum1 08:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Esquimalt Royal Navy Dockyard

Just a note to someone who likes to dig up stuff, the Royal Navy Dockyard in Esquimalt has quite the story behind it, and it's also important as the first "megaproject" (using outside money, unlike the Cariboo Road or Douglas Road which had to paid out of colonial revenues) and had been lobbied for by Victoria and the local RN brass; when the RN finally budgeted/mandated the shipyard it was a cause for general rejoicing in the colonial administration because of the steady stream of imperial spending pouring into the locality; the politicking over getting the shipyard is why the article will b be interesting, and its budgets and projects until 1905, when the Canadian command took over the base, are a whole story in themselves. There was also a Esquimalt Royal Navy Hospital that might deserve an article, and also the Esquimalt RN base itself (not sure what to title it; it has an official name); the Dockyard was an addition to it, so the base itself still needs an article.Skookum1 18:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Megaprojects in British Columbia

Or List of megaprojects in British Columbia; suffice to say there's a megaproject article, but the special context of these undertakings in BC, where monumental projects have always been seen as a way to generate growth, and politicians have a sense of over-reach and self-aggrandizement leading to the "monumentalism" of many megaprojects (esp. Bennett Dam and its powerhouse, which are an archetype of the form). Megaproject spending/thinking has been inbuilt in the province since the building of thte Cariboo Road, but of course reached its zenith under WAC's regime, and that of his son (hence Expo, Skytrain, Canada Place, BC Place et al).Skookum1 18:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Some early-era megaprojects, in case someone decides to start this article:

Skookum1 18:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC) The list should be a sortable table, with columns indicating budget and overruns, politicians responsible, and a column for contractors and owners (when not government-owned, e.g. the Old Cariboo Road or the PGE; if in some cases if a private venture (the PGE). The CPR and GTP and CNR seem also like no-brainers....Skookum1 18:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Colonial Executive Council(s) - article title issue

Please see Talk:Legislative Council of British Columbia which I just created the article for using the Akriggs.Skookum1 18:21, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

British Columbia naming convention

How would people feel about changing the naming convention for BC article placenames so that the name stands alone except in cases where disambiguation is necessary, in which case British Columbia would be added in parentheses? For example, Nanaimo instead of Nanaimo, British Columbia and Yale (British Columbia) instead of Yale, British Columbia. This just seems cleaner to me - more parsimonious, more precise (since the actual name of Yale is Yale, not Yale, British Columbia), and it would improve standardization (with the Vancouver naming convention) for BC articles. There's probably a better place to discuss a formal change to naming conventions, but I just wanted to see what others think. bobanny 19:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, the use of the comma for "town" names, vs the use of parantheses for purely geographic names, e.g. lakes, rivers, mountains, canyons etc., is a Wikipedia naming standard, and there are reasons it's very necessary in BC; most obviously examples such as:
I haven't actually read the reasoning for the naming conventions, but I know it's not exactly the same everywhere. I'm also not hung up on changing this (or necessarily motivated to follow through). At first glance though, it's not obvious just from the title what "Campbell River, British Columbia" and "Campbell River (British Columbia)" signify, and whatever the convention, some disambiguation would be necessary, however it's worded. Yale actually redirects to the university, with Yale (disambiguation) as a separate page. It should probably be like that for some other BC articles that currently go to a disambig page. (Nanaimo going to the town, with a dab note on the top to Nanaimo (disambiguation) for example. I dunno, the ", British Columbia" just looks excessive to me. For letters going out of the country, Yale's postal address would be "Yale, British Columbia, Canada," but we drop the Canada part for domestic letters. Just some thoughts... bobanny 23:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, thing is "BC" is mostly only known to people from here and the rest of Canada, and "those Americans who know" and people from abraod who've been here or have friends here or whatever. In Spanish "BC" refers to "Baja California", for instance. True, there may be no other Campbell River in which case that can be the geographic article; it wouldn't be within wiki guidelines for that to be a town; Campbell River (town) doesn't look as "normal" as Campbell River, British Columbia. But as re Yale (dismabiguation) which I'd forgotten about, on my other note I mentioned the idea of a List of British Columbia-specific disambiguation pages, i.e. pages that could only be from here; only occasionally might there be an overlap with WA, ID, MT or AK (e.g. Okanagan or Kootenay). The idea of such a list is more for purposes of project members, so maybe it can be a branch/split off the project page; the idea is to keep track of them; there's also the issue that if they are BC specific, should they get the WPBC template so we nkow where they are; and while some of them are going to be similar to [[Yale (disambiguation), e.g. Okanagan (disambiguation) and Kootenay (disambiguation, Lillooet (disambiguation), Como (disambiguation (if it is; forgotten - maybe [[Comox[] is the disambig...) and certain others; whereas Cariboo (and maybe Comox as noted, is standalone; hence the need for a list; or a category maybe? there's quite a large number of htem when you stop to think about it.....Skookum1 05:28, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
And we really can't help it if our province name isn't as short as Quebec's or Canada's or Ohio's; I guess Newfoundland and Labrador is longer; can't think of any other North American jurisdiction that's as cumbersome except for Northwest Territories maybe.Skookum1 05:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

How about Saint-Pierre, Saint Pierre and Miquelon as cumbersome? The naming conventions in for BC come from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)#Canada. --maclean 06:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

California's got some pretty long ones (seeing Los Angeles, California is one of the things that made me think about this - it's unlikely to be confused with anywhere else). Etiwanda, Rancho Cucamonga, California is a pretty long title too.
On the disambiguation pages, how about creating Category:British Columbia disambiguation pages, which could be a sub-category of Category:Non-article British Columbia pages. It might be more effective than creating a list (a lot of those were strays; i just created a cat for all of the lists, so if you make a new list, tag it "class=list" with the BC template). bobanny 11:38, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

BC-specific disambiguation pages

Might as well start that list (see previous posts), as it's pretty mechanical to build; some I'll input and check as they may be town pages etc:

Can't think of any others just now, feel free to add them; if they're redlinked above I guess they need creation, or will at some point I'd think.Skookum1 06:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC) More:

Indented items added above on redlinked items above are articles not yet written which would qualify the page (.e. once there's three; Chilliwack currently has only two items, btw, the town and the band; and I wasn't sure if the band should get WPBC; do we add SPBC to current bio pages; we do for historical ones...Skookum1 06:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

About redirect pages etc

I was reading the above and thinking of disambiguations and redirects and looked back at the Cataline 'Jean Caux' thing I got going on. Why does Cataline redirect to Catiline anyway? Was Catiline known as Cataline by someone? If not, could that redirect be deleted and my page moved and be simply called Cataline? Jean Caux and Jean Jacques Caux could be redirected to there then, yes? No?CindyBo 08:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Cataline was a very important figure in Roman history; our guy is a bump on the landscape by comparison; the original Latin name is Catalinus I think but the conventional English form, ie. the most recogniable form, of a well-known name/famous figure, is the standard form; and it's who our Jean Caus got his nickname named after I'd bet, too....why would be an interesting question to answer. BTW I was just about to drop by your talkpage so will refer yoo to the mention of the Yale (sternwheeler I think but not sure), which is mentioend in the francis Jones Barnard article. I'd always thought it was the Umatilla that was first to the Yale docks, but Kerr would know (publ. 1890); the Umatilla was one of the first few anyway; it's the Yale's blowing-up that makes it fairly high on the priority list; but then so are dozens of othes (i.e. disastrous endings). Be nice to see articles on the Moyie and Minto and Fintry..I"ll try and do stubs for the ones on the Douglas Road/Lakes Route lakes before I'm gone....Skookum1 08:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have quite a bit of stuff around here on all those sternwheelers, I seem to remember the Suprise was one of the first around Yale too, maybe. Moyie and Sicamous will be easy to research, because they're so famous anyway, both of them are still around down there aren't they? As tourist attractions of some sort? Anyway, I just thought the whole Cataline/Catiline thing was more of a spelling thing than not, as only one page(other than ours here and the talk page on Cataline 'Jean Caux') links to the Cataline to Catiline redirect, Garotte, but I'm just figuring out some of this redirect diambiguation business, so I'm glad I asked anyway.CindyBo 09:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Cataline was made as a redirect primarily to catch mispellings. Now that this article's been created though, I'd suggest moving it to 'Cataline' and putting a little disambiguation note at the top of the article. bobanny 11:12, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
My mistake on the a/i spelling.....I missed your syntax above, though, bobanny - "garotte" is hte meaninig of "cataline"? I'd made a former association with Catalina Island, = "catalina" in Spanish is a sprocket, possibly means the same in French; not sure why he was called this, but it makes me wonder if it wasn't something like calling him a "gearbox" (without hte sexual connotation...)., i.e. just always busy and whirring and complicated. While French was pretty common in gold-rush California it could also be that this is a frenchification of "Catalina" and he had something to do with the Island;; such a Frtenchficiation is Rancheria vs Rancherie.Skookum1 18:08, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the Cataline nickname comes from a discussion back in 1858 or so from a barrom in Yale where someone was asking Jean Caux if he came from Catalonia and because he couldn't understand much English, he said "yes" and earned his nickname. A lot of these side stories about him are apocryphal so I can't say for sure. And the Garotte thing seems to refer to the Catiline rather than Cataline conspiracy, kind of a strange place to find a reference like that, seems to me, but anyway... So I should move Cataline "Jean Caux' to Cataline and add a disambiguation at the top... but then do what to that other redirect page? And then backtrack to Garotte and change the spelling on the conspiracy thing?CindyBo 18:45, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I fixed the 'garotte' wikilink so it now goes to Catiline. I also put in a request at Wikipedia:Requested moves, because it needs an administrator's super-powers to move over a redirect page. bobanny 23:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject British Columbia/List of British Columbia-related topics

Hello. I'm writing to inform the members of this project that I have moved the article List of British Columbia-related topics to Wikipedia:WikiProject British Columbia/List of British Columbia-related topics per discussion here. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 21:03, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

New subregions/subcats

I've only just started Category:Lillooet Country and Category:Bridge River Country and don't have time to do Category:Okanagan (or Okanagan Country), Category:Cariboo (or Cariboo Country]], Category:Chilcotin Country (needs "Country" to avoid confusion with Category:Tsilhqot'in, as is also the case with Okanagan and Kootenay re Category:Syilx and Category:Ktunaxa and re Category:Shuswap Country re Category:Secwepemc. Basically this is a heads-up as I won't have time to add my new cats to all the current Bridge River-Lillooet articles -not if I want to get more written before my wikibreak! - and I don't have time to create and populated the other needed cats, so if somebody's looking for something nicely mechanical to do ..... "cat away"....; I'd say Category:Cariboo/Category:Cariboo Country is the priority one, plus Category:Lower Mainland (Greater Vancouver and Fraser Valley can be subcats, although they'd seem to replicate/dpulicate the GVRD and FVRD cats...). Keefer4 prefers "Cariboo Country" and I suppose for constistency we should apply that across the board for subcats Category:Interior of British Columbia except for rare exception like Category:Peace River Block (Category:Peace Country would probably raise wiki hackles, even though it's what we do say. Oh, and please see Category talk:Bridge River Country about overlaps and subcats/parallel usages.Skookum1 21:10, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

48-hour notice of Wikibreak

Possibly less than that; I meant to put this up last night but certain posts on the The Tyee kept me up late ;-) (I get to be wantonly POV over there, y'see). For reasons only some here know, I won't be posting again after Monday morning for quite a while (rider: I'll probably be tweaking my userpage, which I've been prepping a revamp on for a while...), perhaps a very long while, but will be available via email (I'll leave the email link at left activated). Some will no doubt be glad to see me gone but it's certainly not because of them I'm leaving. I meant to still get at a bunch of articles and a list of articles I think in need of work/creation but just haven't had the time; this is particularly painful for undone work on the Bridge River Country, near and dear to me, which always got shelved while I worked on other things either in Wiki, the Tyee, or in the wide world; and because some topics there were so important to me that I kept on stalling on getting at them, knowing how much work/detail I could put into them. Even the main Lillooet and Shalalth/Seton Portage articles I was gonna rewrite, and I have yet to write Bralorne and Pioneer Mine and the Gun Lakes and Moha (hmm - see that link; needs to have a dab line for Moha, British Columbia) and more, plus a really interesting set of bios. One thing I'll write up before wikibreaking will be a list of needed articles specific to the Bridge River-Lillooet Country and Fraser Canyon-Thompson Country-South Cariboo that need writing, as well as a list of articles in general that need creation, POV-watching, fixing etc. But re these undone Lillooet articles, if there's another Vancouver-area Wikipedian who'd care to take up the torch on them I'm even willing to loan my copies of Harris and Edwards and Green and other local histories to work 'em up. Dibs anyone? Skookum1 16:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Styleguide for British Columbia standard usages

This in the wake of my change mainland->Mainland on James Douglas (governor), similar to other pages where I've amended "central interior"->"Central Interior" etc. For now this is mostly a list of proper spellings/capitalizations but also what comes to mind is the old Talk:Lower Mainland discussion in which Keefer4 trotted out his old Canadian Press styleguide; I think it will be useful for Wiki editors from outside BC to have a reference place for "standard usages" here, since there's so much confusion and so many errors; Jean Barman's Toronto editors, for example, de-capitalized "interior" throughout that book, even when saying "the interior"; which just looks WEIRD. It would like be writing "the Island" as "the island"; even Washington refers to its as "the Interior of Washington" (capitalized), though "Eastern Washington" is far more common nowadays; anyway; here's a list to start this, maybe it should be on a subpage of the main page or another reference-use location:

  • Always capitalized
    • Interior, Central Interior, Northern Interior, Southern Interior, Southeastern Interior (that last one's a relative 'neologism' and is usually just "the Kootenays")
    • "the Coast", South Coast, North Coast, Central Coast
    • "the Island" (as in Vancouver Island), "(the) Mainland" (w/wo "Lower Mainland" - "lower mainland" is obviously a no-go for much the same reason that "greater vancouver" wouldn't work, even "greater Vancouver").
    • Saanich Peninsula, not Saanich peninsula and similar, Comox Valley, Cowichan Valley, Sunshine Coast; all pretty obvious as with Lillooet Country, etc. (at least one of those is a riding and should have a separate region article....Comox Valley I think, in which case the riding sould be Comox Valley (electoral district) if it's not already.
  • Parallel/equivalent usages
    • Colony of British Columbia = Mainland Colony, Gold Colony not "mainland colony", "gold colony"
    • Colony of Vancouver Island = Island Colony
    • "Canada" pre-1885 referred in BC parlance to what lay East of the Rockies, more properly pre-1871 of course but you'll often come across sources from the period that continue to speak of Canada as a different place from BC and Canadians as different from British Columbians....(much moreso than they are nowadays, needless to say....)
    • "Cascadia" shouldn't be used as a substitution for "Pacific Northwest", although there are neologites who are pushing that change in Wikipedia.

That's all for now; I'm cooking and hungry but there might be others that come to mind; but those are the important ones IMO.Skookum1 05:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear, Skookum1 - you and I are butting heads lately! Oh well, it's all in good fun. I agree with most of what you suggest here with two exceptions: "Mainland" and "Coast." The phrase, "the Mainland of British Columbia" looks clunky for a reason - "mainland" essentially distinguishes a principal land from adjacent islands. Washington State, adjacent to Vancouver Island, could just as properly be called the mainland - and, as an Island boy (yes, capitalized), I know it often is. The other quibble I have is with the term "Coast," for similar reasons - it could be anywhere adjacent to the ocean: North Coast, yes; Central Coast, yes; South Coast, yes - but "Coast" - again, it seems vague.
My question is simply this: What is standard usage with regard to these two words? How is it determined? I may be kayaking uncertain waters here, so I'm open to whatever reference you have ready at hand. fishhead64 14:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Standard usage certainly won't be in the Central Canadian-published dictionaries; it's amazing in fact that it's in press styleguides - but the press styleguides for BC were evolved in the course of the near-century-and-a-half since de Cosmos and Robson et al. established papers; it's also how mainstream historians have generally capitalized things (other than Barman). "The Mainland of British Columbia", because it has "of", isn't the same thing as saying "the Mainland"; might be OK I guess to say " on the British Columbia mainland" because there the proper name of the Mainland has been provided, as in the former case. The reason it's not the same as Washington was because Washington wasn't two entities/identities, at least not maritime-land based, and "the Peninsula" down there could mean the Kitsap as well as the Olympic of course, and those have never been separate words from the TriCounties (Pierce-King-Snohomish Counties) in the same way the Mainland has always been from the Island. The notion of capitalization here is because of it being a proper name, albeit a nickname, not just "a mainland" in the dictionary sense; likewise "the Island". [i]Both[/i] were "short" for the Mainland Colony, and the Island Colony. And with "Coast" I should have been more clear in my definition, I meant when used as apposite/parallel to Island, Interior etc. Not butting heads; being bold in one last hurrah (see below); leaving stuff in my wake, so to speak, and maybe some water wings...Skookum1 16:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Just noticed a usage within my material above: "in BC parlance to what lay East of the Rockies"; "the East" here is a proper name, not a direction, as is also the usage when referring to what used to be OK to call the Orient (talk about a POV mudpuddle; see Talk:The Orient); but "the East" is another quasi-proper name like the Coast, the Mainland, the Interior. And it's "the East" vs "the east of Canada", as with "the Mainland" vs "the mainland of British Columbia" etc; same as they call us "the West" (while meaning only Alberta).Skookum1 16:43, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
It's just the fact that it's a localism that I find problematic. After all, on Martha's Vineyard, "the mainland" means a very different locale, but should it be capitalised in Wikipedia? Similarly in Hawaii. Of course, "everyone" in BC knows that the mainland is the Mainland, but everybody in those other two locales know that their mainland is the Mainland, as well. fishhead64 00:31, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but they don't have a long-standing historical usage in capitalized form, nor did they have the dual-colony/region nature which gave birth to "the Island [Colony]" and "the Mainland [Colony]"; it's from that that our later usages flow, and I was raised with treating them as proper names, same as with "the Interior", i.e. when speaking of it is a region/identity rather than in general locational terms; in the context of being-spoken-of-as-a-"region", to me it's necessarily capitalized; there seem to be lexical/semantic exceptions but my point is when historians/writers/journalists speak of it as a "comparative entity" to "the Island", it is capitalized; we don't write "lower mainland" do we? (OK, some people do, but I submit they haven't lived here long, and are reinforced by other CP/CanWest copyeditors). As I said Keefer4 has his old Canadian Press styleguide but he's on wikibreak right now; hopefully he'll weigh in on this after I'm gone...Skookum1 04:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, provinces really don't get to define their own individual style prerogatives to override either standard Canadian English style or general Wikipedia style. For example, "Lower Mainland" and "Central Interior" and "Vancouver Island" are actually the proper names of specific regions, and are capitalized — but they're capitalized on Wikipedia because they're proper names, not because British Columbia usage has any kind of special privilege. The words "mainland" and "interior" and "island", however, are not proper names, and thus are not capitalized when used outside the proper name of a specific mainland or a specific interior or a specific island. Just because local BC usage tends to do so doesn't mean you can dictate that Wikipedia style has to do the same.
We frequently see the same thing in regards to universities and colleges and hospitals; people often think those words are supposed to always be capitalized, but the actual rule is "capitalize only when appearing in the specific proper name of a specific institution of that type". It's fundamentally the same issue: specific proper name, capitalize. General use of the word outside of a specific proper name, don't capitalize. Bearcat 05:02, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


I made the article Skuzzy (sternwheeler) last night and I noticed I have another weird Cataline type problem, (as explained above, now fixed, thanks). But rather than there being a disambiguation page for Skuzzy it is redirected straight to SCSI. Is that something that should be dealt with?(There's also a Skuzzy II, and a Skuzzy River, although not made as articles yet)CindyBo 15:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a template message "Scuzzy" redirects here. For the British Columbian sternwheeler, see Skuzzy (sternwheeler)." to the top of the SCSI article. This should do the trick until more "Skuzzy" articles are created, at which time a disambiguation page should probably be made. bobanny 18:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)