Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chinese history

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WikiProject China / History (Rated NA-class)
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Wikipedia Day Awards[edit]

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 22:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review[edit]

Hi all, I thought this would be a good place to ask if some here would like to add peer review comments on the article for the Song Dynasty of China, its talk page here at Talk:Song Dynasty, and its peer review page found here at Wikipedia:Peer review/Song Dynasty/archive1. If anyone would like to critique the large amount of work I've done on the article, please do so. Also, add anything that you feel might be needed. Thanks!

--PericlesofAthens 06:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Reviewed. The request was also added to the WikiProject China Peer review department. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 17:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Phasing out sidebar[edit]

I have proposed at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China#historical_timeline to phase out Template:History of China in favor of a footer timeline used m:EasyTimeline and adding Template:Infobox Former Country to every dynasty page. Does anyone want to comment or help?--Jiang 04:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 FAR[edit]

Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. LuciferMorgan 14:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Shen Kuo for FAC[edit]

Hi guys and gals, I have recently nominated the article on Shen Kuo for featured article status. Feel free to review the article and provide your objections/support/comments, etc.--PericlesofAthens 13:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Tai Shi Gong[edit]

Hi there. I have some concern over the translation of Sima Qian's title to Grand Historian. I didn't know where to turn since is no active discussion on the Sima Qian page. Since this is the group that maintains the page for Shiji, I thought this would be the most appropriate place to voice my concern.

My concern is two fold. First of all, the word Tai carries a meaning closer to "first", rather than "grand". Most of official titles, like Tang Taizong and Song Taizu, takes the meaning of "first". The same connotation applies to Sima Qian's case. So rather than the "Grand Historian" it should be the "First Historian".

Second of all, the title "Grand Historian", or even the "First Historian" is more of an epithet. It is like how we call "Richard the Lionheart", in this case, Sima Qian The Grand Historian. Tai Shi Gong is a title used to completely replace his name in order to avoid uttering it. If someone just says "The Lionheart King", it feels like an simple literary device to switch up the reference. It would be considered bad style to use "The Lionheart King" for an entire article. Similarly, because "The Grand Historian" is more of an epithet than a title, it would be impossible to write an article using only "The Grand Historian" without sounding pompous; when in fact, we use that title to sound respectful.

The solution I present is simply keeping the original title in pinyin. Tai Shi Gong will be Tai Shi Gong. Shiji will be Shiji. A completely foreign word is more suitable for stand-alone use.

That is my two bit on the subject. I really hope this can at least spark some new discussions. -- 08:33, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

GA nom[edit]

The Tang Dynasty article is on hold after being nominated for Good Article status. VanTucky (talk) 00:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

History of East Asia[edit]

Hi. I just wanted to point out this developing article, the history of east asia, for people who are passionate about Chinese history. China has had a large influence on its neighbors in the region over the years. See history of Europe for comparison. Common elements in the history of East Asia might include:

  • the arrival of Buddhism from South Asia / India
  • Taoism and Confucianism and its spread to multiple East Asian countries
  • Neo-confucianism in the "middle ages"
  • the Mandate of Heaven, and its impact on relations between countries over the years.
  • the advent of the stirrup and the arrival of the Mongols in the region.
  • the invention of gunpowder in China and its spread throughout the region.
  • the invention of the printing press in China and its spread throughout the region.
  • the arrival of the European powers, and its effect on technology, diplomacy (e.g.: the mandate of heaven), philosophy, etc.

I hope we can all work together to improve this article. 15:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

collaboration of the history projects[edit]

Hi, I'm newly appointed coordinator of the Wikipedia: WikiProject History. I was coordinator of the Wikipedia: WikiProject Military History before. My scope is to improve the cooperation among the different history projects andf use the synergy of a common infrastructure to improve article quality. One idea would be to merge small project into a larger wikiproject history with a common infrastructure and the small projects continuing independently as task forces of this project. What are your suggestions? Greetings Wandalstouring 15:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Four Great Inventions of ancient China[edit]

Hi there. I've taken it upon myself to adopt the article Four Great Inventions of ancient China, as it was being abused by euro-centric POV edits. I've cleaned it up and added from other articles as I felt was neccesary, but I would like a look over from someone in this group. Also, I'ld like to know if I can change the rating from Start-Class to B. Thanks, lk 10:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested Move on PLA operation/invasion, Tibet[edit]

It has been proposed here that People's Liberation Army operations in Tibet (1950–1951) be renamed 1950-1951 invasion of Tibet.

Please join our discussion expressing your viewpoints. (talk) 08:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Portal:History of Imperial China[edit]

Just a heads up - I have created Portal:History of Imperial China. If anyone feels like helping out, it would be most appreciated :) -- Naerii 18:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

China and PRC articles request to be renamed[edit]

User:SmuckyTheCat is requesting that China be renamed, and replaced by the People's Republic of China article at "China". (talk) 07:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nanyue -> Nam Viet[edit]

Nanyue has been requested to be renamed Nam Viet (talk) 06:33, 24 June 2008 (UTC) Don't you think that since the historical records about Nanyue were written in Chinese, the article should be in the pronunciation of Chinese which is Nanyue instead of the Vietnamese pronunciation, Nam Viet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mar vin kaiser (talkcontribs) 14:43, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

1421 hypothesis -> mergeto -> 1421: The Year China Discovered the World[edit]

1421 hypothesis has been proposed to be merged into 1421: The Year China Discovered the World (book article). (talk) 06:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

  • The discussion has been open since April on the appropriate article talk page --Matilda talk 06:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme[edit]

As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.

  • The new C-Class represents articles that are beyond the basic Start-Class, but which need additional references or cleanup to meet the standards for B-Class.
  • The criteria for B-Class have been tightened up with the addition of a rubric, and are now more in line with the stricter standards already used at some projects.
  • A-Class article reviews will now need more than one person, as described here.

Each WikiProject should already have a new C-Class category at Category:C-Class_articles. If your project elects not to use the new level, you can simply delete your WikiProject's C-Class category and clarify any amendments on your project's assessment/discussion pages. The bot is already finding and listing C-Class articles.

Please leave a message with us if you have any queries regarding the introduction of the revised scheme. This scheme should allow the team to start producing offline selections for your project and the wider community within the next year. Thanks for using the Wikipedia 1.0 scheme! For the 1.0 Editorial Team, §hepBot (Disable) 22:07, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Urgent article assistance - Tianjing's struggle Incident[edit]

Folks, would someone please take a look at this article. It looks like it has been translated from Chinese but it needs a lot of work to get it into shape. I already took the liberty of adding {{WPCHINA|history=yes}} to the the talk page. Thanks. – ukexpat (talk) 14:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Chinese history[edit]

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.

We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 23:31, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Chinese imperialism → Territorial expansions in the history of China[edit]

Chinese imperialism article has just come up at WP:RM for renaming. (talk) 12:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

History of the Han Dynasty[edit]

History of the Han Dynasty a new article I've recently created, yet it's 85 KB in size. I'd like someone here to have a look at it and provide some input on how to improve it, or what needs fixing in the article. Thanks.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:40, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group[edit]

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:07, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts[edit]

This is a notice to let you know about Article alerts, a fully-automated subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering Articles for deletion, Requests for comment, Peer review and other workflows (full list). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found here.

If you are already subscribed to Article Alerts, it is now easier to report bugs and request new features. We are also in the process of implementing a "news system", which would let projects know about ongoing discussions on a wikipedia-wide level, and other things of interest. The developers also note that some subscribing WikiProjects and Taskforces use the display=none parameter, but forget to give a link to their alert page. Your alert page should be located at "Wikipedia:PROJECT-OR-TASKFORCE-HOMEPAGE/Article alerts". Questions and feedback should be left at Wikipedia talk:Article alerts.

Message sent by User:Addbot to all active wiki projects per request, Comments on the message and bot are welcome here.

Thanks. — Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 08:57, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Three articles needing experts[edit]

Hi, may I point the members of this group to the three articles ‎Liu Chang, ‎Liu Cheng and ‎Liu Fen, which would surely benefit from the attention and work of some experts in this area. Best wishes ~~ Phoe talk ~~ 00:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Comparison between Roman and Han Empires[edit]

You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Comparison between Roman and Han Empires. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:37, 17 December 2009 (UTC) (Using {{Please see}})

You are invited to join the discussion at [AFD] for Comparison between Roman and Han Empires. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

WP 1.0 bot announcement[edit]

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the WP 1.0 assessment system. On Saturday, January 23, 2010, the WP 1.0 bot will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's summary table will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the WP 1.0 project homepage. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:07, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Missing topics[edit]

I've updated my list of missing topics related to chinese history - Skysmith (talk) 12:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Battle to the Southwest of Xiakou[edit]

FYI, Battle to the Southwest of Xiakou has been prodded for deletion by someone. (talk) 12:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Chinese history articles have been selected for the Wikipedia 0.8 release[edit]

Version 0.8 is a collection of Wikipedia articles selected by the Wikipedia 1.0 team for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were selected based on their assessed importance and quality, then article versions (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the WikiTrust algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the Chinese history articles and revisionIDs we have chosen. Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (♦) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8 with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's articles with cleanup tags and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.8. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as One Laptop per Child and Wikipedia for Schools to extend the reach of Wikipedia worldwide. Please help us, with your WikiProject's feedback!

For the Wikipedia 1.0 editorial team, SelectionBot 22:15, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


Does the novel Under Heaven fall under the purview of this project? (talk) 09:47, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Citation templates now support more identifiers[edit]

Recent changes were made to citations templates (such as {{citation}}, {{cite journal}}, {{cite web}}...). In addition to what was previously supported (bibcode, doi, jstor, isbn, ...), templates now support arXiv, ASIN, JFM, LCCN, MR, OL, OSTI, RFC, SSRN and Zbl. Before, you needed to place |id={{arxiv|0123.4567}} (or worse |url=, now you can simply use |arxiv=0123.4567, likewise for |id={{JSTOR|0123456789}} and |url=|jstor=0123456789.

The full list of supported identifiers is given here (with dummy values):

  • {{cite journal |author=John Smith |year=2000 |title=How to Put Things into Other Things |journal=Journal of Foobar |volume=1 |issue=2 |pages=3–4 |arxiv=0123456789 |asin=0123456789 |bibcode=0123456789 |doi=0123456789 |jfm=0123456789 |jstor=0123456789 |lccn=0123456789 |isbn=0123456789 |issn=0123456789 |mr=0123456789 |oclc=0123456789 |ol=0123456789 |osti=0123456789 |rfc=0123456789 |pmc=0123456789 |pmid=0123456789 |ssrn=0123456789 |zbl=0123456789 |id={{para|id|____}} }}

Obviously not all citations needs all parameters, but this streamlines the most popular ones and gives both better metadata and better appearances when printed. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 02:36, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chinese history/Translation of Han Dynasty titles[edit]

Please look over Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chinese history/Translation of Han Dynasty titles. Thanks. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 14:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I want help and collaboration fixing violation of Wikipedia's summary and article size policies[edit]

Anyone looking over History of the Ming Dynasty and Ming Dynasty to improve and add citations (as I was Sunday) should be disturbed; often sections are identical. Instead of the Ming article containing a briefer summary of History of the Ming Dynasty, it is copied verbatim in direct contradiction of Wikipedia's policies (please see WP:Summary_style and WP:Article_size}. Yes, it's a Featured Article, and maybe that is why I am getting no response on the relevant talk pages, but a policy violation is a policy violation; Ming Dynasty is largely a cut and paste from History of the Ming Dynasty!! I have a ton of secondary sources on the Ming, and want to add facts and citations but feel I can't until this fundamental, underlying problem is addressed. Can any of you collaborate and help me improve Ming content and rectify this problem that is a stain on Wikipedia's usually excellent coverage of China's important history? -- NickDupree (talk) 15:09, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Boxer Rebellion at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard[edit]

There's a dispute about using Chinese scholarship relating to the Boxer Rebellion at the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. Some third opinions from any editors who are familiar with this area, especially using non-English sources, balancing opposing/fringe POVs, or Chinese history in particular, would be very helpful. Ocaasi t | c 21:40, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Technological history ( 1960s-present )[edit]

Media history of China has some completely unsourced speculation - no references to the computers mentioned are elsewhere on the 'net. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:34, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

New User[edit]

Hello, new user here wanting to write on Chinese history as it is my area of study, I can also read Mandarin sources as well as far back to about the early Qing dynasty script. Let me know how I can help! --Shadowy Sorcerer (talk) 06:36, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


Is up for FPOC. This is one of the highest (if not the highest) visibility portal on Wikipedia, I recommend commenting on it! Cheers, ResMar 23:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiWomen's History Month[edit]

Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Chinese history will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in within Chinese history. We've created an event page on English Wikipedia (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 20:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Zhu Hongzhang, Taiping rebellion[edit]

Any adventurous editors feel like taking on re-write of the Zhu Hongzhang article? I came by it from a requested copyedit, but it has so many problems (the english is extremely difficult to derive any meaning from in some parts) that I cannot do any kind of meaningful copyedit at this time (I have no specific knowledge of subject of this article). The good news is, the article is very short. If someone would like to do that, and then possibly either re-add the copyedit request banner at the top of the article, or leave me a note on my talk page, I (or someone else) will try again to do that copyedit. Thanks. For now, I am removing the copyedit banner with an explanation on the talk page, but the article really is in rough shape, and it seemed to me that here would be the best place to find someone who could help it. -- Despayre  tête-à-tête 23:11, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

--Done User_talk:pixiedaemon —Preceding undated comment added 00:48, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Dunhuang Project editing event[edit]

Hi all,

This is to let you know that I've been working with the International Dunhuang Project group at the British Library to plan a multi-day editing event in late October focused on Central Asian archaeology (details). As well as contributions from IDP staff, we're hoping to get involvement from academics and students at UCL, and planning a session for interested Wikipedians.

If you're interested in taking part (online or offline), or you'd like further information when we've more details organized, please let me know or sign up here. Andrew Gray (talk) 13:19, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

  • As a quick followup, this is happening next week - anyone in London is very welcome to come by! Drop me a message if you're interested.
I'm currently organising some of the preparation for next week, and one of the things we're looking at is images. The IDP has a very large collection of manuscript and artefact images, as well as a lot of site photographs, historic material from expeditions, etc. We're hoping to upload a lot of this during the week, but if there's anything specific you'd like to request, please let me know and we'll bump it up the list. Andrew Gray (talk) 19:07, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Ancient Civilizations Textbook[edit]

Hello all! I’m working with the Saylor foundation to create a series of original, crowd-sourced textbooks that will be openly licensed and freely available on the web and within Saylor’s free, self-paced courses at We are using Wikibooks as a platform to host this project and hope to garner the interest of existing members of the Wikibooks and Wikipedia community, as well as bring in new members! We thought that some of your members may be interested in contributing to our book's Ancient Civilizations of the World.(talk) --Thomas Simpson (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"Shunzhi Emperor" nominated for good featured article[edit]

I just nominated Shunzhi Emperor for the good article status. Anybody is welcome to open a review page by going to the article talk page and following the links from there. WP:WIAGA explains the standards an article has to reach before being considered a "Good article." Thanks a lot! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 02:34, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I have just nominated Shunzhi Emperor for featured status. The review page is here. Please come and participate! Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 04:10, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Missing topics page[edit]

I have updated Missing topics about history of China - Skysmith (talk) 10:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal[edit]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live![edit]

WikiProject X icon.svg

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

Note: To receive additional notifications about WikiProject X on this talk page, please add this page to Wikipedia:WikiProject X/Newsletter. Otherwise, this will be the last notification sent about WikiProject X.

Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride![edit]

You are invited to participate in Wiki Loves Pride!

  • What? Wiki Loves Pride, a campaign to document and photograph LGBT culture and history, including pride events
  • When? June 2015
  • How can you help?
    1.) Create or improve LGBT-related articles and showcase the results of your work here
    2.) Upload photographs or other media related to LGBT culture and history, including pride events, and add images to relevant Wikipedia articles; feel free to create a subpage with a gallery of your images (see examples from last year)
    3.) Contribute to an LGBT-related task force at another Wikimedia project (Wikidata, Wikimedia Commons, Wikivoyage, etc.)

Or, view or update the current list of Tasks. This campaign is supported by the Wikimedia LGBT+ User Group, an officially recognized affiliate of the Wikimedia Foundation. Visit the group's page at Meta-Wiki for more information, or follow Wikimedia LGBT+ on Facebook. Remember, Wiki Loves Pride is about creating and improving LGBT-related content at Wikimedia projects, and content should have a neutral point of view. One does not need to identify as LGBT or any other gender or sexual minority to participate. This campaign is about adding accurate, reliable information to Wikipedia, plain and simple, and all are welcome!

If you have any questions, please leave a message on the campaign's main talk page.

Thanks, and happy editing!

User:Another Believer and User:OR drohowa

Direct dynastic histories citations[edit]

Hi all,

There's an issue I'd like to bring up for discussion. I have noticed that a couple of editors have adopted a practice of adding information to articles (mostly on people from the Warring States and Three Kingdoms periods, but probably more) and citing as their references the dynastic histories, in particular the Shiji and the San guo zhi. This, I believe, is problematic. I strongly believe that these sources should be treated as primary sources—notwithstanding the fact that they were of course originally secondary or tertiary sources, albeit at a time many long centuries in the past—that for Wikipedia articles we should avoid using, and that we instead should stick to the modern biographical dictionaries and encyclopedias edited by Sinologists, of which there are now several of quite high quality. I would like any and all to please share their thoughts.

Kanguole (talk · contribs) and Philg88 (talk · contribs) have previously commented on this over at the MoS, I'll let them give their thoughts here too now that we've moved this discussion over.  White Whirlwind  咨  06:14, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

As I said previously, we should not be using primary sources of questionable reliability when more modern sources satisfying the requisite Wikipedia policies and guidelines are available. However, where we document such a guideline is a question in itself—it's not really a MOS issue.  Philg88 talk 06:28, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree that the practice of citing these historical records should be avoided in general. In the case where the use of these sources cannot be avoided, the English translation should always be used instead. For me this is also a matter of original research. Alex ShihTalk 11:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
This is a pervasive problem in later periods (e.g. Tang) as well. I would go further and reject all old sources, including medieval commentaries and 19th-century Europeans. It's fine to quote them to illustrate what they thought, but it's inappropriate to cite them for statements in articles, especially when there's so much modern scholarship. I'm a little wary of tertiary sources like biographical dictionaries and encyclopedias, but for obscure figures they may be the best thing available, and certainly to be preferred over ancient histories. Kanguole 11:35, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree in principle, and I myself use modern English scholarship as much as I can (eg. Rafe de Crespigny's biographical dictionary for Three Kingdoms biographies). In practice, though, not all of the editors contributing to these topics have access to specialist literature, and Wikipedia's coverage of Chinese history is so spotty that I really don't think we should discourage them from using ancient sources if that's all they can get (as long as we are just repeating the facts from the ancient sources and not making original analysis of them). _dk (talk) 22:00, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
@Philg88: maybe something like the warning box that shows up for Three Kingdoms articles could work? One that reads something like: "Please avoid adding direct references to dynastic histories such as XYZ and instead use reliable modern studies."  White Whirlwind  咨  17:09, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
@White whirlwind: Ah, you mean an edit notice. Good idea and its availability should be flagged at Wikiproject China - there would be a huge number of articles to create an edit notice for but if it's done as a reactive measure (i.e. after the addidtion of such a source) then it shouldn't be too onerous.  Philg88 talk 17:44, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Underbar dk. The principle should be to use the best sources available. There is plenty of modern scholarship for dynastic histories, famous emperors, and other high-profile topics. However, for more obscure subjects, such as minor rulers and officials, finding modern sources is often impossible (few Western historians care to write about them, while Chinese sources are usually unavailable online or in Western libraries), and using older sources is sometimes unavoidable. -Zanhe (talk) 20:50, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I was hoping the conversation would go in this direction, because I think it illuminates another "pervasive" (to borrow @Kanguole:'s term) problem we've been having in China-related topics: notability. WP:NOTABILITY describes how the lack of existence "in any language" of "independent, reliable sources" on a particular topic indicates that the topic in question "is not notable". If a person, place, or event is described in the old dynastic histories but not in any reliable, modern critical scholarship, rather than saying we should then resort to citing from the old sources, I would instead say that this indicates that the article probably shouldn't exist.  White Whirlwind  咨  04:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Most situations are not so clear-cut. Modern critical scholarship often only mentions the most important aspects of a person's life, leaving out details that are trivial in the big picture, but essential to an encyclopedia entry about the person (such as early life, family, etc.). Besides, it's quite unlikely that a person with a biography in the traditional histories would be completely ignored by modern scholarship, but modern sources often do not repeat uncontroversial facts already mentioned in traditional sources. And it's ludicrous to say there's a pervasive issue with non-notable Chinese historical figures. It's exactly the opposite: way too many articles missing for highly notable historical people. -Zanhe (talk) 06:05, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Regardless of your personal feelings on the issue, the policy is quite clear: if "independent, reliable sources" do not exist for a historical figure, they aren't notable as Wikipedia defines it. We have quite a slew of Spring and Autumn period figures who will probably fit that bill, I think. If this spurs us to at least find some better, more modern Chinese sources for people who are currently only cited from the dynastic histories, then I'm all the happier for it. My only caveat there is that it does require us to watch out for sources with significant nationalistic bias (The History of Chinese Civilisation, etc.)  White Whirlwind  咨  06:08, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Missing topics list[edit]

My list of missing topics about chinese history is updated - Skysmith (talk) 14:05, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Classic of Mountains and Seas[edit]

Can someone please look at the edits made today. Besides some problems with the writing, I can't evaluate the sources - I can read the Google translations but they don't help me evaluate the sources. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 13:25, 1 October 2017 (UTC)


You are welcome to discuss the newly created {{Infobox folk song}} and its future here. --Tamtam90 (talk) 06:11, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Possible hoax article?[edit] this looks like an unresolved questionable article - anyone with any ideas ? JarrahTree 23:19, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: It looks fine. I've added a Google books link for the source (with preview). Check it out for yourself. -Zanhe (talk) 23:29, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks - was checking for tagging - and single source always raises doubt, as well as talk page conversation JarrahTree 23:40, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject[edit]

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Yuan dynasty[edit]

More views would be welcome at Talk:Yuan dynasty#Sexist and pro-Chinese. Kanguole 23:47, 1 June 2018 (UTC)