Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline

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Flags on sister cities sections[edit]

See: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities#International_relations_and_twin_cities_-_use_of_flag_icons.

"Affluent" in lead section[edit]

There is currently a discussion at Talk:Riverdale, Bronx#"Affluent" regarding the use of "affluent" in the lead section. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:13, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Template:Infobox settlement versus this essay[edit]

The template for settlement example
shows "Chicago" in the infobox official_name parameter, not "Chicago, Illinois".
You would page all the way down the page to see the Chicago example.
Before I began removing the , state name from U.S. city infoxes, I asked someone in TeaHouse (I think)
and they pointed me to the Template:Infobox_settlement.
However, this essay/ guideline, does not follow the template settlement.

Has this WikiProject on Cities addressed what exactly should go in the "official_name" parameter?
I didn't find anything here in the archives about it.
Most infoboxes have the state name in the map parameter.
Most city page article names also have the state name.
The infobox is being bogged down by the state name and I think the infobox template shows it best as "Chicago" for official name, not "Chicago, Illinois"
What do you think? --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 20:22, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

1) Chicago is a bad example, because it doesn't follow the "City, State" naming method. Years ago, I remember seeing some discussion that decided that USA city article naming would follow some major USA newspaper writing style guide, where the largest ## cities would not include their state in newspaper articles. I don't remember where it was discussed (might have been in talk section for some major city), I don't remember which newspaper writing style guide (should be able to find them via google), I don't remember the exact number of largest cities (30 or 50 ???). • SbmeirowTalk • 21:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC) I did some searching and found this Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#United_States. It's based on the "AP Stylebook". • SbmeirowTalk • 21:59, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
"Chicago" is the example in the template infobox. I understand what you say about big cities but not everyone in the world knows the states of even the big cities. So I don't think the reason Chicago doesn't show comma state is for the reason you're implying (that everyone knows what state it's located it). I don't think that's why Chicago shows as Chicago. I think the template wants it that way for all cities. The wikipedia article is about the city or barrio or markaz or whatever within that state, municipality or governorate or whatever. And the state name, or municipality name or governorate name is sometimes part of the article name, and if it's not, the state name, municipality or governoreate or whatever is found somewhere else, often multiple times, within the infobox. So then why does it need to be repeated at the very top of the infobox? It's just an observation and a conversation I had with someone somewhere .. but I'll never find it.. LOL--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 00:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
My #1 statement was mainly about the article name, instead of what's above the infobox. I prefer the article name to have the state, but that happened before I started editing. Also, I prefer the state to be included above the infobox too. • Sbmeirow Talk • 07:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

::::How about this? The article on Honolulu is just named Honolulu. So because the article name doesn't include "Hawaii", then the infobox SHOULD include it in parameter name. But on most articles where the state name is already part of the article name, would you agree that the state name is then not needed in the infobox name or official name parameter?-- The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 18:42, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

2) There are multiple name fields available for the infobox. Personally, when I cleanup city articles, I delete the "official name" field, and add or fill in the "name" field with the article title or it's common name in a few situations. The reason I remove the "official name" field is some editors put the legal name in this field, such as "The City of XYZ", which is redundant for the infobox and not the most common way to use the name for that city. • SbmeirowTalk • 21:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
LOL, I disagree. If you look at the template it shows "Detroit" in the name, and City in Settlement Type and official name "City of Detroit". To me that is correct, looks correct and I don't see why this essay wants to deviate from the template. In my opinion, it is the state name that is redundant when added to the infobox parameter = "name" or "official name". I think "official name" should remain in the infobox as some places do have a different official name i.e. Municipio Autonomo de Lares. The official name should be included and not removed, IMHO. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 00:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
There isn't any MANDATORY RULE that "official name" field must be used instead of "name" field. Am I suppose to LOL too? I don't know why someone hasn't updated the examples in the settlement article? By the way, it says at the top of the Chicago example "NOTE: This differs from the actual Chicago infobox in order to provide examples." • SbmeirowTalk • 07:29, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I specifically asked someone about the examples in the settlement article and they stated it was correct to use the city name without the comma followed by the state name. Maybe that's why no one has updated the examples in the settlement template article. (I LOL when something is funny. I laughed when you stated that 'adding "City of ___" to "official name" is redundant.' Why would that be redundant. Wouldn't a reader want to know that the city has a different official name, when that's the case? (When people see things differently I think that's worth an LOL.) Re: the use of official name versus name, I understand the template says to include the "official name" only if it's different than the city name, as in the Detroit example. I believe the template is very clear. Re: 'By the way, it says at the top of the Chicago example "NOTE: This differs from the actual Chicago infobox in order to provide examples"- it could differ because an editor can change it (as you've been changing them to include the state name), but that doesn't mean it's correct. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 10:17, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
3) There are multiple reasons why state should be included. A) Wiki article name, of any type, typically is put at the top of the infobox. B) There are thousands of tiny cities that almost everyone has never heard of, and their name by themselves is not enough of a clue to determine where they are located in USA. C) Many city names are used in many states, which is why the state name is critical for these cities. See examples: Lincoln, Jefferson, Marion. • SbmeirowTalk • 21:52, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
The infobox has other parameters that indicate the state, or municipality, or governorate. It has subdivision parameters to hold the state's name. The infobox often has a map that includes the name of the state. All I'm trying to say is I think it would be beautiful if the name of the city stood out in the article about that city ...
And of course there are thousands of cities with the same name, even within a state, or governorate there may be places with the same name, but isn't that information found in the article title, in the article's lead and in other infobox parameters? Have a nice day. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 00:51, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
The state name is to disambiguate, so is only needed for the article title, not the infobox header. It's no different than leaving out a parenthetical word or phrase from the infobox header. I remember having a small discussion about this years ago for US townships, which follow the "township, county, state" format as some editors would keep that full "township, county, state" format in the infobox, which made for an unusually wide, and completely unnecessary, header. State names are critical for the article titles, but not for the infobox header since it's already below the title and has other, very clear, mentions of the given state for disambiguation. As for official name, I have never had an issue with using "The city of..." in that role; basically, whatever appears on a given settlement's seal or official website. --JonRidinger (talk) 22:46, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
It makes sense to me. It makes perfect sense. What's that saying? "If it's not broken, don't fix it". The infobox settlement template is not broken so... Thank you.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 02:39, 10 April 2019 (UTC)