Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome

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User:Rjdeadly recategorisation[edit]

User:Rjdeadly has taken it upon themselves to redo a whole bunch of categories relating to Roman forts and the like, apparently without consensus. It's not my area at all, but since categories like Category:Roman legionary fortresses have existed for 10 years but are now threatened with deletion as they are now empty, I thought this project ought to take a look and see what damage limitation is appropriate. Le Deluge (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Anyone with immediate access to the Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire?[edit]

I've encountered an article that I suspect is garbage, to put it mildly, but first want to verify my suspicions. My suspicions are based on two tell-tale clues: (1) creation by a now-banned contributor (I won't name names here due to WP:BEANS, although I'll happily discuss the individual in private message), & (2) citation of one of Christian Settipani's books without page number.

As I've been reading more recent works, I've found that Settipani is not quite the fringe writer I first thought he was -- his work gets cited a little, & in a respectful manner -- but this banned contributor has misused him to insert a lot of questionable material (mostly genealogical in nature) into Wikipedia. Fortunately, the questionable material is in low-importance articles, so a casual user will probably not see it, & gives us time to check whether or not it's reliable.

If no one can look up a name for me in the next few days, I need to carve out some time to visit a nearby college library where there is a copy I can consult. -- llywrch (talk) 23:12, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Notice to participants at this page about adminship[edit]

Many participants here create a lot of content, have to evaluate whether or not a subject is notable, decide if content complies with BLP policy, and much more. Well, these are just some of the skills considered at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship.

So, please consider taking a look at and watchlisting this page:

You could be very helpful in evaluating potential candidates, and even finding out if you would be a suitable RfA candidate.

Many thanks and best wishes,

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 03:43, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

GA reassessment of Macrinus[edit]

Macrinus, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:54, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

List(s) of Roman consuls, update 2[edit]

Providing another update, now that I’ve completed the Imperial consuls of the 1st century, AD. This is one of the two most difficult stretches I’ve worked on -- I expect the second century will be as difficult -- & is likely to be the first that will lead to some hurt feelings. Let me explain what I did & how I did it. (And apologies for writing such a long comment!)

My primary goal has always been to have a reliable source for every name in this list, both so editors after me can evaluate if they have more recent or (hopefully) better information to add, & to aid the reader. (As well as conform to Wikipedia best practices.) A secondary, yet still important goal has been to provide a list that is reliable enough & complete enough that it will serve almost anyone as a starting place for further research: a complete, up-to-date list of all the Roman consuls does not exist anywhere. Broughton’s magistral three volumes covers the Republic; the Prosopography of the Later Roman Empire & Consuls of the Later Roman Empire cover the Empire from the mid-3rd century to the end of the consulate; but there is no one source that lists all the names – both consuls ordinary & consuls suffecti -- for more than short sections from AD 1 to AD 210. (The latter year is when practically all materials for assigning a date to a given suffect consul cease.) Attilo Degrassi’s authoritative work covers up to 541, but he published it in the early 1950s, & archeology has since uncovered many more primary sources (such as the wax tablets of Herculaeum & Pompei) while scholarship has added or corrected more identifications.

So a lot of my time & attention has been spent quilting together a patchwork of sources, then checking for mistakes & double entries. For the 1st century, Paul Gallivan in the late 1970s published a series of papers which cover the Principate from Caligula’s reign thru Domitian’s, but that leaves over three decades at the beginning of the century & four years at the end untouched –- as well as the chaotic year AD 69. Fortunately, G.B. Townend covers the Year of Four Emperors quite reliably, & I was able to use the work of an Italian scholar, Fausto Zevi, for the year 97. But for AD 1 thru 36, had to scramble, & in the end I was forced to rely on a publication from 1955 for much of the reign of Tiberius; for the last three years of the century, I also had to rely on another older work (published in 1966), but for various reasons those years don’t concern me as much as the ones depending on the older book.

As an aside, there were times where I probably crossed the line into performing Original Research here, despite my best efforts not to. I made an effort to verify scholarly readings against the primary sources where possible, because that allowed me to better understand which expert was more likely correct when they disagreed. (There were several instances.) Sometimes it was hard not to give into temptation & provide my own opinion based on original sources. However, every time I was tempted I was reminded of just how messy the primary sources usually are, & ended up gladly accepting the judgments of Gallivan, Townend, Zevi & others. (In a few cases the primary sources were clear enough that I could cite them directly, & have indicated where I did that.) Having worked on just one section of this list, I have a greater appreciation for the accomplishment Broughton achieved in his three volumes of the Magistrates of the Roman Republic -- & very happy I could simply follow the road he paved, needing to only fix a rare pothole.

This led to two types of changes to this section of the list. The first was removing a lot of unneeded footnotes: there were many footnotes citing books published since 2000 as reliable sources for entries that were actually proposed as early as the 1970s. Where a more recent source duplicated the older one, I removed it. However, where an existing footnote either supported a person different than the one I had found in Gallivan, etc., I left it; it may contain more accurate information.

The second change reflected following existing Wikipedia policy: if my research found a name different than what was there when I started my work, but the existing name had no source, I replaced it. I understand doing this removed work others may have taken pride in, & so I apologize. (We Wikipedians often forget to acknowledge that our colleague’s pride in their contributions, which is probably the cause of more friction & editor burnout than people are aware of.) Admittedly, this may mean I have removed the most up-to-date information, but if it is better, then I welcome anyone to revert that change as long as you can provide a reliable source for it. (And there are a few years that I am still not entirely happy with: apparently there is no information about the suffect consuls for AD 22; a few years like 86 & 93 still need more work; there are a couple of sources I’d like to investigate further & perhaps add information from therm; & I have probably forgotten to insert information I have in a couple of other spots.)

But despite these potential mistakes, I still believe these changes are an improvement. As I mentioned above, this list is a resource no other reference work -- electronic or print -- has: a (reasonably) up-to-date & complete list of all the ordinary & suffect consuls for Rome. (I note that the equivalent page in the German Wikipedia is a "Featured article", & lacks much of the citations this one has.) And where it is wrong, this list is now far easier to correct & build on.

Now on to the 2nd century, which I know will be a similar challenge! -- llywrch (talk) 18:44, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Everything here sounds reasonable; if different names are found in other sources they can be added back in with appropriate information explaining them (or in some cases as footnotes, but unless there's reason to doubt a name, such as a mere difference of opinion in nomenclature for someone already listed, or a different year assigned, it would be better if they appeared in the list). It's very hard to distinguish between technical Wikipedia policy and original research on a project like this. As long as everything is based on a scholarly source, and if necessary the reason for preferring source A to source B, I think we shouldn't strain too hard over this point. If specific examples need to be addressed, they can be dealt with as they're discovered. Thanks again for all your hard work! P Aculeius (talk) 23:28, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
New data has now been taken back. And Iulius to Julius does not look so beautiful. --Μίκυθος (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2016 (UTC)