Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music

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Four part harmony[edit]

I have marked this article as needing immediate attention. Examples of (very) dubious material is on the talk page, and some of the stuff on it I think is wrong, but it is impossible to tell due to the complete lack of sources. Wondered if any experts over here might be able to help. Thanks, JZCL 20:18, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Don't see anything wrong or completely off-topic. Suppose chorale, more specifically Bach chorales, might be mentioned as prototypical examples of four-part harmony (instead of just being listed under "see also"). Maybe close harmony could be linked (and explained a bit better). Maybe expand a bit that four-part harmony is the basis for much more than currently mentioned: e.g. "melody line + (for example) figured bass" or "singer + guitar chords" in your average pop song are based on it (even if a guitar chord has more than three notes: it's always bass + notes filling up the chord topped by the melody line with a lot of doubling of notes, some an octave higher, going on). Four-part harmony allows up to seventh chords, only beyond that (extended chords) you're de facto outside four-part harmony. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:08, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
One thing which I feel is lacking is saying that for hundreds of years four-part harmony has been the way to teach harmony. I'll see if I can work on it tonight and ask others involved with WikiProject music theory. - kosboot (talk) 21:53, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Beethoven's 1808 Concert in Vienna - Article worthy?[edit]

On the 2nd of May 2015, the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra held a concert that replicated the full programme of the 1808 concert that introduced Beethoven's 5th & 6th Symphonies amongst other compositions to the world. Limelight Magazine published an article on the 1808 concert in which it was claimed that orchestras around the world have also replicated the programme every time they need to do something special.

I saw that there is no article covering the 1808 concert itself as an event and thought that it might be worth doing, does anyone else: (a) Think this is a good idea? (b) Think that they could assist?

The link below points to the MSO page about their concert.

Graham1973 (talk) 02:13, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

It is one of the most well-known concerts in the history of (proper) music - the fame comes from its intolerable length, the number of significant works premiered (Opp 58, 67 and 68) and the fact that it was, by all accounts, a catastrophe. So, yes: I think an article on the concert would be a welcome addition to Wikipedia. Geoffrey Norris has a good account of the concert in the September 2013 edition of Gramophone. I'm sure there are others. I would be happy to help, perhaps on the weekend. --Syek88 (talk) 08:46, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Definitely article-worthy if there are enough sources. Could give a great insight into concert practices, audience expectations, etc, of the time. --Stfg (talk) 09:46, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Great idea. I would be glad to assist if I can.--Smerus (talk) 10:01, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
This book wd be useful if anyone can access it (and can handle German!) - '1808 — ein Jahr mit Beethoven' ---Smerus (talk) 10:47, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

One thing we will need to sort out before starting a sandbox, is the title of the article, any ideas? I'm planning to track down a review of the MSO concert that appeared in print on May 8 in the Australian but is currently behind a paywall. Here is a link to the program notes for the MSO concert.

Also a review of a 2007 concert in New York using a similar program.

No luck in finding a thesis, but I did find a newspaper article which mentions a 1993 recreation in Milwaukee, which leads to a question, who/where & when was the first attempt to recreate the 1808 concert carried out?,2945423&hl=en Graham1973 (talk) 16:24, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

When was the actual date of the 1808 concert? - kosboot (talk) 16:28, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree this would be a good topic for an article. There is already a fair amount of sourced material in our articles about the works that were performed; see in particular Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven) for a list of the works and Choral Fantasy (Beethoven) for a tale of ensemble-breakdown. The Choral Fantasy article also give the date, 22 December 1808. Opus33 (talk) 16:55, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

(Why is no one indenting?) Thanks to HathiTrust, here's a link to the contemporaneous review in the Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung: - kosboot (talk)
Thanks to everyone who continues to find information, regards the title I'd like to suggest "Akademie of 22 December 1808", here is my listing of what I think the article should cover:
  1. . Beethoven's planning of the concert, pre-concert preparations/negotiations.
  2. . The concert itself, contemporary reaction, eyewitness accounts.
  3. . How the concert was viewed after Beethovens death, eg. accounts of it appearing in the mid-late 19th/20th/early 21st C.
  4. . Recreations of the concert program, who organized the first, why did they organize it (if this can be determined.), where was it performed and how successful were they. Plus other recreations since that time.

Graham1973 (talk) 02:58, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I think there needs to be some rationale as to why this concert is notable/significant (beyond the premieres of several works). Also, I don't think contemporary re-creations are such a significant aspect of the 1808 concert. Anyone can recreate that concert (and I'm sure it's been done previously) - would an encyclopedia article want to list all such re-creations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kosboot (talkcontribs) 03:18, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I have worked up the beginnings of an article in my sandbox (User:Syek88/sandbox), which I would welcome anyone to edit. I did it in my sandbox because I am unsure what title to use and there is still quite a lot more detail to be added. As for the note above ("I think there needs to be some rationale as to why this concert is notable/significant"), NPR calls it "one of the most famous concerts in music history" ( Barry Cooper in his biography of Beethoven calls it the most remarkable of Beethoven's career. A similar claim is made by the New York Times ( Syek88 (talk) 08:12, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the box! Such a concert article shows much about the culture then than single articles on compositions. I confess personal attachment to the Choral Fantasy (Beethoven), as the first choral piece I ever performed, in a school choir age 12, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
ps: I suggest you do one of two things: copy/paste to an article or to User:Syek88/Beethoven concert, to be moved later with the history. You will not want to move the sandbox with all its history. I chose the former road for Ah! perfido, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:11, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Good point. Imo it's already quite good enough for article space. --Stfg (talk) 14:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
What I meant, - or would not have pointed at the option ;) - It comes with the advantage to link to it in article space, collecting more attention and input. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:38, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Good start, might have a look at updating the reference format, but I'll hold off on that until later. Graham1973 (talk) 17:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
Good start. --Stfg (talk) 10:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
A question in my mind is what category should be used for this article that can concatenate other articles about individual concert events? (I'm thinking of a few potential articles on opera galas, the Carnegie Hall "Concert of the Century," and others). - kosboot (talk) 15:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

I think I will be able to move the article directly out of the sandbox as my sandbox does not have any history other than this article. Adapting Graham1973's suggestion above, would "Akademie of 22 December 1808 (Beethoven concert)" work for the title? I think the title needs the word "Beethoven" in it somewhere. Syek88 (talk) 23:23, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

"Akademie of 22 December 1808 (Beethoven concert)" strikes me as unnecessarily complicated (mixing languages & unnecessary disambiguator). Wouldn't Beethoven concert 1808 be sufficient? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:17, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
I like that, Michael, but we should have redirects mentioning Akademie and the date, for search functions, - people might look for that--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC). Compare how the event is called in present articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:45, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

At Category:Concerts:

"Akademie" is not a widely recognizable feature of the concert; "Vienna" redundant (where else?); if date: "22 december" is part of it (in order not to give the impression Beethoven music was only played in one concert that year). I suppose I prefer the second while the first is already longer and makes a selection of the program (who is to say which were the most significant items?) --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:42, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I would still like Michael's short title better, makes search easier for people who know the year but not the date, - others redirects. For the Shostakovich, Leningrad was important to mention because the premiere had been in Moscow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Created Beethoven concert of 23 December 1806 and Première of Beethoven's Violin Concerto as redirects - might grow into an article too I suppose. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:59, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

I also like Beethoven concert of 22 December 1808. It conveys the two important details: composer and date. We need the day and month because there were other concerts in 1808, including the premiere of the Triple Concerto. Syek88 (talk) 09:29, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
I also like Beethoven concert of 22 December 1808. - kosboot (talk) 12:24, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, clear and accurate. --Stfg (talk) 16:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
I have now moved the article to that title. Syek88 (talk) 10:27, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Looks very good, added a couple of earlier recreations I found on Google News. In case anyone is wondering about the Milwaukee concert, the link below goes to a preview article which has a very interesting quote from Christopher Hogwood who conducted the 1994 recreation. On A Grand Scale: Beethoven Extravaganza recreates historic "Akademie" - The Milwaukee Sentinel, 1 April 1994 (The concert was held on the 16th.) - Graham1973 (talk) 02:04, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't wish to be too cynical about these recreations, but I think they are much less significant than the concert itself. In 25-50 years, will a recreation by the New Jersey or Milwaukee Symphony be notable? I'm sure there have been numerous recreations in the past. In my opinion, If you're going to list any, then restrict it to major orchestras. - kosboot (talk) 11:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
The original concert was such a momentous occasion that every recreation will generate considerable discussion and coverage, making them notable. Conversely, each recreation and its coverage makes the original more notable. The current list doesn't seem trivial to me, especially if the conductors' names were to be included (Hugh Wolff, Christopher Hogwood, Alan Gilbert, Günther Herbig, Louis Langrée, Diego Matheuz (es; de; it). -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:05, 19 May 2015 (UTC)


In German we have this term (also Evangelienspruch, but it's sung, not spoken) for motets based on gospel text, to be performed in a service as (part of) a gospel reading. Is there a term in English? I didn't find the concept in motet. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Apparently "Gospel motet" [1] [2], but I would refer to the original German word on first occurrence like the second of these sources does. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, started, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
(ec) Please do use the German term first. I suspect the phrase in Francis' refs is a translation of the German term rather than a known term in English. I've never heard the English term before, and although it gets a few Google hits (but still less than a thousand), Grove online appears not to have an article on it. At best, a very unusual term in English.
In the article you've just started, I think the term is unhelpful unless it's a genuine English technical term. You already have Evangelienmotette in the subtitle. Your descriptive phrase "a motet on gospel text" seems to me to be both better and sufficient. --Stfg (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
Taken, - those nuances are exactly what I need native speakers of English for. - Could a passage be added to motet, summarizing what the German article has? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:48, 26 May 2015 (UTC)