Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search

WikiProject College football (Rated Project-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject College football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of College football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 Project  This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This page has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 


Please provide your opinion in a proposed change to “Infobox college coach”[edit]

Thanks. Template talk:Infobox college coach#Use of the “sport” field Rikster2 (talk) 21:47, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

This discussion could use more opinions to try to reach a consensus. Please go give your opinion if you can. Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 14:59, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Once more, this discussion could use more input to reach consensus. Rikster2 (talk) 11:54, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Michigan State–Ohio State football rivalry redux[edit]

Previously discussed here - Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_College_football/Archive_19#Michigan_State–Ohio_State_football_rivalry - and kind of inconclusive. Some recent editing at Ohio State Buckeyes football‎ caused me to revisit the page and I'm still skeptical that this qualifies. I intend to PROD it unless someone here has some other thoughts. JohnInDC (talk) 15:40, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

I recommend you AfD it instead. Jweiss11 (talk) 17:14, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
For what it's worth I'd probably support deletion if it was AfDed. A single CBS writer's spur-of-the-moment exceptional claim does not a rivalry make. The Detroit News source only vaguely suggests it's a rivalry. Lizard (talk) 03:24, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
The article needs narrative text to be developed, and I'd have to do a deeper dig to reach a final decision, but I'd probably lean to keep. Whether it's a true rivalry or a highly notable series, the notability is probably there. Sources include: (1) CBS Sports ("Michigan State-Ohio State is best modern rivalry"); (2) The Detroit News ("MSU-OSU is now the big-stakes game in Big Ten"); (3) Mlive.com ("Michigan State-Ohio State football rivalry blossoms with both projected atop the Big Ten"). The notability is also supported by the history of 22 marquee matchups in which both teams were ranked or a ranked team was upset. These marquee matchups include: 1951 (#1 vs #7); 1960 (#8 vs #10); 1972 (MSU upset of #5 OSU); 1974 (MSU upset of #1 OSU); 1975 (#3 vs #11); 1998 (MSU upset of #1 OSU); 2013 (#10 MSU defeated #2 OSU); 2015 (#9 MSU upset #2 OSU); and 2017 (#11 vs #13). Cbl62 (talk) 14:31, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Maybe so. But I'd rather our criteria were a bit stricter than just "does it pass GNG?" when it comes to rivalries. The problem is that we have to try to prove a negative: you can easily find sources saying a series is a rivalry, but it's a lot tougher to find sources saying one isn't. That's why I cited WP:EXCEPTIONAL even though it doesn't directly apply. Lizard (talk) 14:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)
Well, I didn't do it, but it's done. AfD here. JohnInDC (talk) 02:51, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

Can anyone help me out?[edit]

Currently in an edit war with an IP user on the Utah State Aggies football page over rivalries. They are stating 2 named rivalries with Boise State and Air Force that don't exist and can't provide proof. And every time I remove the info and ask for a source they just keep saying the "name is pending" and that I'm vandalizing. I don't want to get blocked from an edit war. Can anyone back me up on the Talk:Utah State Aggies football page? Bsuorangecrush (talk) 00:27, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

The IP got blocked for 31 hours and the page protected for 3 days. I'll leave this information here in case the edits continue after the block and protection expire. Thanks. Bsuorangecrush (talk) 01:04, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

2018 Nebraska score links[edit]

The 2018 Nebraska Cornhuskers football team page has links in the score of the schedule tables that link to the ESPN box score. To my knowledge it is the only one that I've seen with this. Is this something that should be copied on all 130 FBS and 100+ FCS pages, or eliminated?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 03:05, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd eliminate it; there's no need, especially with the new "source" parameter that can be easily added to any schedule template. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:39, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
Agree with PCN. The "source" parameter is the preferred way to handle this. E.g., 1948 Detroit Titans football team. Cbl62 (talk) 03:54, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
I've seen this elsewhere and it's an inappropriate use of external links within the body of an article. These sources should be used as inline references where appropriate. Jweiss11 (talk) 04:03, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
@Wscsuperfan: you restored these external links last week when it appears the concensus was to remove them. Can you discuss? Hoof Hearted (talk) 13:28, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
@Hoof Hearted: I did not see any notice to remove the links? What is the rationale? Wscsuperfan (talk) 14:52, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
I think the notice was placed here (in this discussion) to attract more discussion participants. The rationale is that this in an inappropriate use of external links within the body of an article. To PCN's point, "source" is not available for the {{CFB Schedule Start}} templates (11,000 transclusions), and I'd hate to revert to the {{CFB schedule}} templates (1,900 transculsions) shown in Cbl's example. Should we add "source" to {{CFB Schedule Start}} (and {{CFB Schedule Entry}})? (Template editing is not my thing) Hoof Hearted (talk) 15:27, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Source column should be available for both versions. If not, we should ask Frietjes to fix that. Cbl62 (talk) 16:33, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

─────────────── "Source" is not included in the documentation for them and I get an error when I try to add that parameter to transcluded templates. @Frietjes: could you please add a source parameter to {{CFB Schedule Start}} and {{CFB Schedule Entry}}, similar to what was done with {{CFB schedule}}? (Or if it's already there, can you explain what I'm doing wrong?) Hoof Hearted (talk) 17:23, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Hoof Hearted, source is available in the new templates. I have converted 2018 Nebraska Cornhuskers football team to use the new templates using the conversion module. the new template automatically detects if any of the rows have a source parameter, and if so, it automatically adds the source column. Frietjes (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

AfD Discussion: Zach Vraa[edit]

I originally proposed the article for Zach Vraa, a former wide receiver for North Dakota State, for deletion on the grounds that he doesn't meet the standards of WP:CFBNOTE but someone removed the tag. As you can see from his page he garnered no individual collegiate awards nor ever signed with a professional team after graduation and therefore certainly doesn't meet WP:CFBNOTE and there is no notable national coverage about Vraa as an individual. Best, GPL93 (talk) 18:13, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, page should be deleted. Simply being the member of a good team does not warrant their own page. Bsuorangecrush (talk) 22:21, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
There's several more from the same editor, who appears to be some sort of NDSU superfan who also created several other pages for NDSU players that do not meet notability standards. I proposed another one for deletion but there are several other ones of players whom either never made it to any professional rank or were only on a professional team for one preseason and never signed again after initial cuts. I've been going through Navigational Boxes below so I'm sure I'll find some more:

Best, GPL93 (talk) 23:34, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Agree with Bsuorangecrush. Simply being a player on a good team, even a Division I FCS championship team, is not a recognized basis for notability under WP:NCOLLATH. Such players would need to pass muster under the standards set forth in NCOLLATH, WP:NGRIDIRON, or WP:GNG. Cbl62 (talk) 15:41, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposal to rename 26 "Mountain States Conference"/"Skyline Conference" standings templates and season categories[edit]

Please see Talk:Mountain States Conference#Renaming "MSC" football standings templates and football season categories and weigh in with any thoughts you may have. Cbl62 (talk) 15:38, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

AfD-Ben LeCompte[edit]

Ben LeCompte was a punter for North Dakota State who had a short stint with the Chicago Bears on their practice squad after graduation and has not appeared on a roster since. I don't believe his achievements meet standards of WP:CFBNOTE or WP:NGRIDIRON and I don't think he has gained significant enough non-local coverage to pass WP:GNG. The article was previously nominated in 2016, when he was still with the Bears practice squad.GPL93 (talk) 14:58, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Jim Taylor (tackle)[edit]

What are the chances that a third-team All-American tackle from the 1920s, who doesn't appeared to have played pro, will ever be anything more than a stub? Is he notable enough for an article? Per guideline WP:WHYN: If only a few sentences could be written and supported by sources about the subject, that subject does not qualify for a separate page, but should instead be merged into an article about a larger topic or relevant list. The main reason I ask is that Jim Taylor (American football) should be moved to Jim Taylor (running back) per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople) if the tackle is going to stay.—Bagumba (talk) 11:48, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

I haven't done the WP:BEFORE work to assess Jim Taylor (tackle), but have two general reactions to your inquiry: 1) The fact that further disambiguation may be needed should never be a reason (let alone "the main reason I ask") to consider deleting an article; and 2) Your question misapprehends the relative importance of college and pro football at the time Taylor played. In fact, playing for the 1924 Georgia Bulldogs football team was actually a much bigger deal (in terms of fan base, attendance, and press coverage) than playing for an NFL team (e.g., 1924 Racine Legion, 1924 Kenosha Maroons, 1924 Rochester Jeffersons). Cbl62 (talk) 14:27, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
I ran across the tackle in the hatnote after the RB's death. If he's not notable, I was not going to bother moving the RB and update all the links if only one Am football Jim Taylor will ultimately remain. I'm not looking to delete just to avoid a rename, per se. The comment about the tackle not playing pro was more that it's one less SNG he can meet. I was not discounting college football in those days. Hope that clarifies things. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 14:38, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Glitch in independents templates[edit]

If the college football independents standings templates are going to be kept, they should at least be fixed to remove the "Conf" record column. See, e.g., Template:1898 college football independents records. This column is empty in each case because we are showing the records of "independents". It serve no useful purpose and simply renders a template that is wider than it needs to be, in many cases forcing schedule templates to shift downward, leaving empty space. Can someone with the requisite technical skill remove the "Conf" record column? Cbl62 (talk) 19:42, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

I will fully agree; if we're going to keep these independent standings, we need to get rid of the "conf" parameter. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 14:51, 18 October 2018 (UTC)
I understand the point you are trying to make, but almost every source lists the independent standings table with the conference fields blank (see ESPN, Yahoo, NCAA, etc). It just seems like extra work that really has no impact on anything. Mjs32193 (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't know how much extra work is involved to execute the fix; I assumed it was rather minimal. The impact is in unnecessarily making the template way wider than it needs to be, forcing schedule templates in some cases to shift downward, leaving empty space. Cbl62 (talk) 01:11, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Conference rankings[edit]

What is our policy on ranking order within conference templates? I've changed the Big Ten standings table a couple of times to match the order shown at BigTen.org (as it pertains to conference record ties). Yet, I must admit that ESPN and Fox Sports show different orders. I consider the conference website to trump all others, but is that right? Hoof Hearted (talk) 13:36, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure if a consensus on this has ever been reached. I agree that the order put out by the conference itself should probably be the default. One would hope that the conferences are following their own tie-breaker rules in their standings tables, although I don't exactly 100% trust them to do that. Meanwhile, I can't even tell what ESPN's sorting is.. why are Michigan State, Penn State, and Maryland in that order? Ostealthy (talk) 15:04, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
If there's a discrepancy, I would go with the ordering as presented by the conference itself. Most conferences officially recognize teams with the same conference record at tied for the same place; see page 1 of the most recent Big Ten football weekly release here. They appear to be ordering tied teams by overall record there. Tiebreakers between teams tied for the same place come into play when you have two or more teams that tie for a division title and only one can advance to a conference championship game; in other sports such tiebreakers are used to order seeding for conference tournaments. This is a misunderstood detail that has become incredibly tiresome at Nick Saban and Urban Meyer as IPs and newbies will routinely remove division titles from infoboxes on those articles for years in which the team lost the tiebreaker and did not play in the conference championship game. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:24, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Okay, the Big Ten's own ordering isn't consistent as https://bigten.org/confstandings.aspx/2018-19/fb?path=football differs from https://bigten.org/documents/2018/10/22//2018_Week_9.pdf?id=6131. Jweiss11 (talk) 16:28, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough, and thanks for all the research. I'll "stand down" regarding the order. Hoof Hearted (talk) 14:24, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Lists of seasons[edit]

I was looking at some CFB season lists and noticed some use the {{CFB Yearly Record Start}} templates and others use coded tables. Are we trying to unify on one layout? Which one? Unfortunately, the project guideline describes using the coded table, but also says (at the top) lists should look like List of Texas Tech Red Raiders football seasons, which currently uses templates.

Templates (Georgia, Wisconsin, Michigan)

  • More "global" use in wikipedia
  • More user friendly(?)
  • Separate columns for overall and conference records
  • Most editors seem to use conference standing for division standing
  • No column for division record (important?)

Coded tables (Alabama, Clemson, Ohio State)

  • Allows for more customization - notably spanning rows for repeat values (is this better or worse?)
  • Separate columns for conference and division finishes (although conference finish usually becomes unnecessary beyond 1st or 2nd)
  • No column for conference (or division) records

It looks like @Comedian1018 changed serveral coded tables to templates in October 2013. Is that the way we want to go? Hoof Hearted (talk) 17:35, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

We did have a discussion on this exact issue before. But I don't think anything came of it. I think it is worthwhile to rediscuss this, and I think that Dcheagle had a good proposal.–UCO2009bluejay (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
You must have better archive searching skills than me! If I'm reading it right, the concensus was to use Dcheagle's proposed "Version Two" (a coded table with a few modifications). I'll update the project guideline for these season list layouts, and start chugging through team articles as I find them. Hoof Hearted (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Well, I posted what I believe the concensus was in 2015 plus some last-minute suggestions in my sandbox. I don't know if I explained it well enough or got bogged down in the details, so I invite everyone to provide feedback. Doing the example table was quite a challenge, and I think I bit off more than I can chew volunteering to do all CFB season lists. If everyone likes this, I'll copy it to the guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject College football/Season-by-season lists format and convert the example Texas Tech list, but I probably won't be actively working on any additional conversions. Hoof Hearted (talk) 20:34, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
@Cbl62:, @Jweiss11:, @Dcheagle: @Corkythehornetfan:, @Ejgreen77: @MisterCake: Thoughts?-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Also, @Lizard the Wizard:-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I prefer the template over the coded table. It's cleaner and more consistent with the other articles related to the subject (e.g. coaches). I've never liked the coded table... I think that's it's too much clutter and more work than I wanna put in. Corky 22:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
And we have contrast problems, too, as I start to look at the coded tables. Ohio State has a grey for "N/A" which isn't readable. Corky 22:44, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm up for whatever you guys wanna go with, I had forgoten that I had even been working on the season tables coding. I myself prefer the coded tables cause you can customize it more. If any changes need to be made to what I already coded let me know and Ill get to work on it.--Dcheagletalkcontribs 23:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
I like the information presented in the coded table, but entering all that code sucks. The main thing *I* liked about the coded table was the ability to span rows for repeat values (Head Coach, Conference), but that requires even more code for coloring the championship seasons and I could see newer editors getting lost. For very long spans, it also makes it difficult to line up the rows when reading the table. So, after changing my mind on spanning, templates become my preference. I think bowl games are presented with too much detail in your example; if anyone wants to know who they played or what the score was they can click the link. I'm also not a fan of "null" cells marked "N/A" or "—" for nearly the whole column, and would be in favor of allowing blank cells for these (I don't think this was your invention, but more of a carryover from the existing guideline). Hoof Hearted (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Template talk[edit]

It may be worth pointing out that the {{CFB Yearly Record Start}} template family still has a fair amount of customization built in, including suppression of conference columns for independent schools, the optional use of sub-headings and sub-totals, and optional wikilinking for school, conference, and college football season articles. In fact, there's enough variation in the way these templates are used I wonder if we could give better guidance to help standardize their appearance. By no means is this a complete list, but I categorized 15 powerhouse football programs below that use the templates.

Team Subheadings for Name parameter School season link
piped under
CFB season link
piped under
Conference season link
piped under
Subtotals
Colorado Conference (linked) Coach (first one linked) Year none none none
Florida Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Overall record Year Conference record none
Florida State Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Overall record Year none none
Georgia Coach (linked), conference (linked) Team Team (name parameter) Year none Coach: overall and conference record
Miami Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Overall record Year none none
Michigan Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Overall record Year Conference record none
Michigan State Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Overall record Year Conference record Coach: overall record (%) and conference record (%)
Notre Dame none Coach (first one linked) Year none none (Independent) none
Oregon Conference (linked) Coach (first one linked) Overall record Year none none
Stanford Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Year none none Coach: overall and conference record
TCU Conference (unlinked) Coach (first one linked) Overall record none none none
Texas Conference (linked) Coach (first one linked) Overall record none Year none
Texas A&M Conference (linked) Coach (first one linked) Overall record none none none
USC Conference (linked) Coach (first one linked) Year, switches to overall record in 2010 none Year beginning in 2010 none
Wisconsin Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Overall record Year Conference record none
MOST COMMON Coach (linked), conference (linked) Coach Overall record Year none none
  1. I don't have a problem with some variation, but feel we should bring the red text discrepancies in line with the rest of the pack.
  2. Nobody appears to be using {{CFB Yearly Record Subhead}} to reflect changes in team name, although it seems like a golden opportunity to me.
  3. Conversely, the overuse of the subheading template for every coach change breaks up the flow of the table, and makes the Coach column redundant. I'd prefer recommending this template for team name and conference changes only.
  4. Although it's bucking the trend, I'd prefer to see the school season link piped under Year rather than Overall record – this just seems more intuitive to me.
  5. I don't think links to CFB or conference seasons are that important on this list. It is a list of <school> seasons afterall.
  6. With the prevalence of Head Coach lists, I think coaching record sub-totaling is clutter for Season lists. Subtotals for conference records might be more useful.

Hoof Hearted (talk) 20:35, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

We should at least be careful about a complete overhaul because of the many Featured Lists.-UCO2009bluejay (talk) 14:17, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
Only one of the eight season lists in that category use templates, so templates would definitely be a change in paradigm. I'm going to drop the issue - if anyone wants to pick up the ball and run with it, feel free. Hoof Hearted (talk) 15:12, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

TfD: Template:Milton Wildcats football coach navbox[edit]

Template:Milton Wildcats football coach navbox has been nominated for deletion. Please see the discussion here. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

1896 LSU Tigers football team[edit]

Anyone out there know why the Ole Miss and Tulane rivalries are not showing up in the appropriate places? They are listed on the edit page...Pvmoutside (talk) 16:38, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@Pvmoutside: the game needs a stadium name. If you can't find it try a non-breaking space (&nbsp;) for the stadium. Hoof Hearted (talk) 17:10, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
The (&nbsp;) worked...thanks....Pvmoutside (talk) 18:31, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
I put in an edit request to see if we can get rid of that nasty dot separator when the stadium isn't specified. Also, note that the 1896 Tulane page is using a slightly different (non-nested) style that you may want to consider if the dot separator bothers you. Hoof Hearted (talk) 18:41, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
...and now the template's been fixed (thanks to Frietjes). A &nbsp; is no longer required. Hoof Hearted (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Conforming Rocky Mountain Conference articles to WP:COMMON[edit]

We recently fixed some of the confusion over the naming/usage of Skyline Conference (1938-1962), and I'd now like to do the same for the Rocky Mountain Conference. There is considerable variation in how this conference is referenced in articles, templates, and categories -- sometimes as the Rocky Mountain Conference, other times as the Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference, and other times still as the Rocky Mountain Faculty Athletic Conference. My research, based on hits at Newspapers.com, shows overwhelmingly that the common usage from at least 1914 to 1963 (I didn't go beyond 1963, as the conference became less notable in later years) was "Rocky Mountain Conference". In a post on October 16, I proposed renaming articles and templates in accordance with this common usage, but have received no feedback. If you have an opinion, please post at: Talk:Rocky Mountain Athletic Conference#Renaming RMAC/RMFAC ---> RMC. Cbl62 (talk) 22:50, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

While we're fixing things ... "Border Conference"[edit]

Having resolved a couple other conference naming anomalies, there's one more to tackle. Please see Talk:Border Intercollegiate Athletic Association. Cbl62 (talk) 01:39, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Aaron Hernandez article[edit]

Opinions are needed on the following: Talk:Aaron Hernandez#Update. A permalink for it is here. The discussion concerns Hernandez's sexuality and how much detail to include on it, and WP:In-text attribution. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:45, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Featured quality source review RFC[edit]

Editors in this WikiProject may be interested in the featured quality source review RFC that has been ongoing. It would change the featured article candidate process (FAC) so that source reviews would need to occur prior to any other reviews for FAC. Your comments are appreciated. --IznoRepeat (talk) 21:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Bot request submitted for schedule conversions[edit]

I submitted a bot request 10 days ago to do the conversions to the new schedule templates; see Wikipedia:Bot requests#College football schedule conversions. No one there has yet responded. Perhaps if others here would chime in over there, it would draw some attention. Thanks, Jweiss11 (talk) 02:58, 19 November 2018 (UTC)