Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Contract bridge

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WikiProject Contract bridge (Rated Project-class)
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Marcus Cup[edit]

Anyone interested in writing article on Marcus Cup? It is a discontinued ACBL event. See I was cleaning up some player's Wiki entries, someone had won the Marcus Cup, but we have no page for it. If there are other discontinued events, these should be added.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 21:10, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Is it notable enough to be worth its own entry? I've never heard of it, but that may just be because I'm British rather than American. JH (talk page) 09:03, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 Working  ...since I am an inclusionist!   Newwhist (talk) 12:09, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
I think it's notable enough, even though it's long retired. Obits of players mentioned that they won it. In a couple of months I will probably revisit the Bridge Accomplishments sections of all players. I currently include all ACBL titles, and WBF titles. See Collectively we should decide what else is considered worthy of inclusion. I will assume all European titles. Then we need to decide on individual countries, e.g. UK and its various trophies. Arguably Camrose, including Womens/ Seniors. Not so sure about U-19 etc. I am less familiar with other country's competitions. Once we have decided we then need to get the data (who won etc.). I will probably wait until the hearings (and appeals) from all the cheating stuff is finished. We also need to make a decision on how we note the events won with cheating pairs.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 08:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done.  In creating this article, I encountered two names (of note to me) not yet having an articles of their own: Alvin Landy and William Flannery. Deserving?  Newwhist (talk) 14:04, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Landy definitely. Flannery is more marginal, but as the convention named after him is so well-known he probably merits an article. JH (talk page) 17:51, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
I create both Alvin Landy (bridge) and William Flannery (bridge).Nicolas.hammond (talk) 11:20, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Detailing tournament results[edit]

This is very closely related to the "Bridge accomplishments of players" section below and a good example is the Bermuda Bowl. There are two things to consider I think: maintainability and legibiity. Currently, on the wiki page, there is a link to each year's results on the WBF page, and since the WBF made some changes the links are mostly broken. Automating maintenance of these in some way (probably similar solution to the accomplishments of players) would certainly help.

However the second challenge for a long running event like this is that the individual annual references make the list long and hard to read. I know you maybe shouldn't "read" the reference list but I often do to get a sense of additional reading - perhaps a solution is to change the order and ensure the external links / further reading section is above the references. A more general style question is when does one swap from direct links to a summary link like this that puts the user 1-click away from the detail but gives a clearer summary view and shorter reference section? --Pstansbu (talk) 07:28, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Agree with your point except that websites do change their structure and most of the broken links were good at one time but have been broken because of these changes. We can expect the same problem in future, so while this is good for now, it may not last. The real question is how to make the reference easy to update all in one place for all articles using it. Newwhist (talk) 13:07, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I cannot think of a simple way of maintaining links within a page. If the remote site changes the links (ACBL did this a couple of years ago), then for individual pages, we have to manually update the links.
The same problem exists for the player's bridge accomplishments. For this I have put the data at Click on Results. Click on their letter for their first name. There should be a page that contains data on the player. The links on these pages are automatically updated. For example, for probably most of the ACBL links on Wikipedia are broken because of the ACBL web page update. On Github these should all be corrected. I only have to fix it in one place, then generate the corrected links. There is still the tasks of updating all the player's pages on Wiki but if someone gets bored they can start on this task.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 13:08, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Let's consider the concept that was employed in Template:OEB to reference the various editions of The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge. Is it possible to create a set of templates within which each has the links to the winners of an event (or several events) and we transclude that template to each page that requires that reference. Then if the link changes, we need only update the link in one location (in the template). This is worth a trial and I will undertake to do a demo within the next week but I am busy with other matters, so bear with me.. Newwhist (talk) 13:30, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Bearing with you. I updated Jeff Meckstroth to show you the current links.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 02:00, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
I have posted a draft of a new template I have named ACBLWinners which addresses the three most significant ACBL events. It can be expanded to add all other events. A parallel template for the WBF events or for any other governing body could be created as well. While all this would make future update to links that have been changed easier to do, it would still be a tedious task to apply the template to existing articles. It also has the minor benefit of regularizing the terminology used for such references. Can the substitution of existing references be automated. Newwhist (talk) 14:25, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Bridge accomplishments of players[edit]

The updating and extension of the accomplishments of players as suggested by Nicolas in the foregoing section requires a solid base for the enumeration of events which will be recognized/included as notable. IMHO the appropriate starting point for this base would be a more robust upgrade to the categorization of events in the article List of bridge competitions and awards. A standard template/format for the presentation of results should flow from that upgrade as well as some basic style rules (e.g., do we present chronologically or alphabetically; do we use the descriptive name of the event or the trophy awarded for it) and the systematizing and indexing of repeated use of references/sources so as to allow future updating and extensions should, for example, website URLs change. Newwhist (talk) 16:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

And further regarding notability criteria for people, please see the draft at Wikipedia:WikiProject Contract bridge/Manual of Style/Appendix 5: Notable people criteria. Perhaps the criteria for notability based solely on 'wins' and 'runners-up' should be debated there. Newwhist (talk) 18:37, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
Also see previous discussions at the talk page to the aforementioned list article and the links therein. Newwhist (talk) 15:07, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
Agreed. There are several that need pages written. See, follow red links. I'd like to see more coverage of non zone 2, non Europe. Are there any down-under editors. Also Asia. We'll need co-operation from various editors to determine what is comparable to the current list, but we are under-represented outside of ACBL-land and UK. The needs updating as well, some pages are "next - 2015". I added some additional awards. Again, ACBL centric.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 03:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

I've started work on the code needed to generate the data, and also updated some of the records so it should be easier to maintain. I need a list of the players who have won appropriate trophies/awards. For example, if any of the UK editors can provide a list of the players who won the Camrose or Gold cup, or anything determined to be worthy I can add those. If there are other trophies that should be added, now is the time to get me the list. At the moment, I have WBF records, I have ACBL records, including the minor National titles. See for an example format. Year,Place,Name.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 14:15, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

A complete list of Gold Cup winners year by year can be found here. There's a more conveniently formatted list of players with four or more wins here. For the Camrose, matters are complicated by the fact that each team plays a match against all the other teams in the competition, and it's usual for teams to alter from match to match. Searching that Bridge Great Britain site, I haven't been able to find a list of players who competed for a country during a season in which it won the trophy or in an indivisual winning match. JH (talk page) 15:44, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. I added Gold Cup to my code. I updated players at Go to Results. Each player should have their own entry under this directory. As an example, I added a Bridge accomplishment section to Andrew Robson and also updated Zia Mahmood using the data from Github. Use Github as a resource for adding players or updating their accomplishments.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 13:54, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Any input on additional events to add, please let me know.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 13:54, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I have been looking at create a template so that for each Bridge player we would have a single line which would import their data from GitHub. Not sure this is technically feasible, or if Wiki-appropriate. Should not be getting data from a third party site which could have different editors. Another thought is for every Bridge player to have a separate Wiki page which is "Bridge accomplishments". In the main body, we would transclude the data. The reason for putting this into a separate file is that the Bridge accomplishment page can be auto-maintained by comparing it with an outside site. Not sure I like either approach but the latter has some merit. To give an example: I used to reference winners of Spingold by referencing the last Bulletin and previous winners. But ACBL broke the link. Now I list a reference to ACBL web site. But... currently we have about 200 players to update with their bridge accomplishments. If it was all in one place, it could be automatically done. Any thoughts on best way to accomplish this are appreciated.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 19:07, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Bridge Players[edit]

The next round of edits to the Bridge accomplishments should include not only new Bridge accomplishments but also an update to the list of players. A criteria I used was 10 NABC+ wins. For ladies I reduced the number to 5 NABC+ open wins. The current list of players is ACBL-centric. I'd like to see more inclusion of non-ACBL members; we have no strict criteria for inclusion - perhaps some editors from other countries can help. I know that the next time I update the Bridge accomplishments that we will have several that will drop below the 10/5 threshold as some of these were won with convicted cheating pairs. My suggestion is that anyone who has a current Bridge wiki page is kept, even though their accomplishments may now be deemed less worthy. My other suggestion is that all titles won with that include a convicted player be marked with a '*' and a link to an appropriate cheating page. It is unknown how long the appeals process for the cheating scandals will be. As editing ~ 200 pages will be time-consuming, I plan on only doing this after all of the appeals are over. FS is in an appeal period - unknown if they have appealed. FN are going through EBL hearings. PK have had their hearing - no appeal expected. Status of BZ hearing (if any) is unknown. None have had ACBL hearings, but this is not relevant. It may be 2-3 months before I get to updating player records - I agree that the first step is identifying the trophies/awards we want to include. If anyone has any knowledge of writing Wiki macros (perhaps I'm using the wrong word), let me know. For the majority of the bridge players, we can refer their accomplishments to an outside page - saves us editing manually. Consider it similar to the aclbhof tag (am probably using the wrong terminology).Nicolas.hammond (talk) 03:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

FS did not appeal.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 14:16, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
FS and FN had their final appeals with ACBL in November. Result is that both lose all titles. Their teammates keep all titles except for Spingold 2015. FN still have appeals pending.Nicolas.hammond (talk)

Navigation template acting as an index to all contract bridge articles[edit]

The forgoing navigation template (which is maintained manually) attempts to categorize bridge related articles and is intended to be located at the bottom of each article. The recent addition of articles on cheating in bridge raises the question of whether or not a category for 'cheating' related articles should be created and added to it. Independent of whether or not such articles are highlighted in the navigation template, they could be captured in a wiki category as well. If included as a tab in the navigation template, would it be as a subtab of the 'People and organizations' tab. Comments? Newwhist (talk) 22:19, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I am strongly against creating a "Cheating in bridge" category, for now at least; and have given it some thought. It could be open to abuse, not least under WP:BLP. Cheating in bridge should contain the necessary links and would be easier to monitor. Narky Blert (talk) 22:50, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
I hold no strong opinion on the matter. If not a category onto themselves, where then should the recent new articles on cheating be located in the navigation template? Newwhist (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
However, I think the template is way too unwieldy to navigate. See the criteria at WP:NAVBOX: The articles should refer to each other, to a reasonable extent... If the collection of articles does not meet these tests, that indicates that the articles are loosely related, and a list or category may be more appropriate. There is over a hundred players listed in the infobox, an open-ended category. Bridge clubs, conventions, ... those can be in hundreds as well. Now that I expanded it, the template is monstrous, and virtually duplicates the complete Category:Contract bridge. You will hardly find anything resembling it on the whole Wikipedia (and if you do, I would advocate its deletions). I think some sub-templates are fine or at least rescuable (Overview, Card Play, Championships, Publications for example), but those should be separated and used only in their respective categories. "People" certainly needs to go, probably also "Conventions". No such user (talk) 07:21, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Maintenance of the template is also an administrative chore. I am drawn to the idea that the existing navigation template be replaced with one which employs Wiki categories as its primary method of bagging up articles. However IMHO, the existing set of bridge related Wiki categories is not sufficiently robust to do this job at present and needs a refresh before it can properly be deployed as a tool for navigation purposes. I will think on it. Newwhist (talk) 15:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
I've changed my mind. Category:Cheating in bridge could be useful. It has a primary article, Cheating in bridge, and the recent suggestion of an article about Disciplinary procedures in bridge would slot straight in. So would Fantoni and Nunes cheating allegation and Fisher and Schwartz cheating allegation; and also the as-yet-unwritten Reese and Shapiro cheating allegation (which would need a redirect from Buenos Aires affair), which IMO deserves an independent article: the sections in Terence Reese and Boris Shapiro overlap, and deal with the same notable event. So long as the category is for documented cheating allegations/scandals with their own article, and not a dumping-ground for every player who might ever have been accused, I like the idea. Narky Blert (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Notability of bridge players[edit]

There is currently nothing in Wikipedia:Notability (sports) about our game. (OK I take on board the arguments about whether bridge is or is not a sport; but this is about Wiki.) If the members of this WikiProject can agree on what makes a bridge player notable, we might be able to drop our WP:CONSENSUS into that guideline without controversy.

My tentative suggestions:

  • All full internationals.
  • Winners of open international tournaments or championships, including those with restricted entry. The criteria need to be tightly defined.
  • People who have won more than one major national competition. For example, in UK: Gold Cup and in U.S.: the Reisinger, Spingold, or Vanderbilt Cups. The list should extend to other countries also. Multiple winners of money events like Cino Del Duca do not count.
  • Writers and players not caught by those criteria, who have received sufficient attention in WP:RS sources to pass WP:GNG. Some uncontroversial examples: David Bird, Victor Mollo, and Geza Ottlik.

Comments welcome. Narky Blert (talk) 23:50, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Great suggestion to 'institutionalize' the criteria once agreed upon. As was noted earlier in Section 9 above regarding notability criteria for people, please see the draft at Wikipedia:WikiProject Contract bridge/Manual of Style/Appendix 5: Notable people criteria. Perhaps the criteria for notability should be debated there.Newwhist (talk) 14:48, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the link (which I've bookmarked)! I agree that that's the correct place for discussion. Narky Blert (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I think we should add more players and be less restrictive. I put a list of all 5+ NABC winners at The ones in Red have no Wiki page. There are about 15-20 players who I think should have a page. If no objection I may create short pages on all of them focusing on bridge accomplishments.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 19:20, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

All 1st/2nd/3rd places finishers in the Bermuda Bowl should have their own Wiki page. See Bermuda Bowl. Lots of red links.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 03:33, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

I think all first place winners of the Spingold, Vanderbilt, and Reisinger should have their own Wiki page. Probably most of the second place finishers as well. First step is to highlight them all, similar to the work that someone did in Bermuda Bowl so that we know which ones are missing. There is some work to check the name is not already there. For example, I found Michael Becker/Mike Becker as an example. I did some work on the Bermuda Bowl 1st/2nd place finishers.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 19:50, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Also posted under Tainted titles. As there is probably going to be a mass update of ACBL titles, I'd like to add some players to Wikipedia before that work so we only have to add the square brackets around their name once. My view is that all SVR winners should have a page, same with all World Championship winners. Thoughts/comments?Nicolas.hammond (talk) 14:22, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Tainted titles[edit]

The ACBL have made rulings in the FS and FN cases. FS, FN are stripped of their titles; their teammates are stripped of the titles but only going back 4 years from the Spingold 2015.

We have to decide how to present this information, both for the convicted players, and also for the teammates, both for titles within the 2011-2015 time-frame, and also ACBL titles pre 2011.

One option is to remove their names completely, make no mention of them. See Wiki page on Tour de France. Armstrong's name does not appear anywhere in list of winners. Another option is to list their name, but with a strike through, example: Lotan Fisher.

As an example, Fantoni won Reisinger in 2007 on Cayne's team, 2012 & 2013 on Zimmerman's team. He was runner-up in 2011 on Z team. According to ACBL, the entire team forfeits 2012, 2013. But for 2007, only F/N get removed from the team so Cayne still shows up as the winner. As Cayne played 6 handed in 2007, we should list it.

Another parallel option is to create a new page "Tainted Titles" or something similar which explains what we have done, and why. I do think we need a page to explain why there is a criteria for 4 years. Simple answer it is a (relatively new) ACBL BOD decision.

My opinion is that for older titles, e.g. Reisinger 2007, we list all 6 players but F/N are shown with a strike-through, and there is a reference to the "Tainted titles" page so can see why there is a strike-through. For 2012, 2013, we remove all names and say "title stripped".

For individual bios, we need to know how to handle all the difference cases. For convicted cheaters, we can list what they won, and what was stripped. The latest announcement is for ACBL titles only. So Cayne for 2007 will have the Reisinger listed, but probably with a link to the Tainted titles page. For Z, need to decide if we include the 2012, 2013 under "Stripped titles" or if we don't list them at all.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

It remains to be seen what the official records of the ACBL will show once they have edited them - I assume they will do so, but who knows how quickly. Even so, I doubt that Wikipedia is bound by the ACBL approach. As I understand it, no person, pair or team will be elevated in the ACBL record standings because of the discipline imposed on any other person, pair or team. The original position of the offenders is simply empty/vacant. IMHO, the fact that a particular person, pair or team was subsequently removed from the standings should be immediately evident to the reader and should not made to look like it never happened. At this early stage and until I read further opinions and commentary from other editors, I am leaning to having the affected position in a list of winners be blank with an associated footnote about what happened. I do not favour a 'Tainted titles' page because this would fragment the information; it needs to be in one place for all to see front and center. Each person's own page would be the place to summarize all his/her affected titles. Newwhist (talk) 18:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
It is NOT our place to decide what to do about tainted titles. If (e.g) the ACBL strikes them from the record, we can say so; if they promote pairs or teams, we can say so; if they asterisk results, we can say so; in every case, with a WP:RS source to explain and to justify the edit. Anything else would jump the gun, and most likely fall foul of both WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. Narky Blert (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
The List of Tour de France general classification winners retains Armstrong's name, struck through. WLior (talk) 22:23, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
I still like the idea of "Tainted Titles" to explain why some teams are missing players who played in the event. We should not delete them without providing an explanation of why.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 06:07, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
First, instead of "tainted" titles I would use the term used by the ACBL -- "forfeited titled". Second, there are two kinds of pages under consideration: one is the tournament result pages and the other is the pages for individual players. On a tournament results page I would strike through the names of players who have forfeited the title (sometimes part of the team, sometime the whole team) and add a footnote -- just like the TDF list linked above. On an individual player page I would add a section "results forfeited" and move there all the results that have been forfeited. Separately there can be a catalogue page "List of bridge titles forfeited due to cheating". — Preceding unsigned comment added by WLior (talkcontribs) 20:56, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
I agree with "forfeited" for ACBL titles (unless they come up with yet more corrections and clarifications), but it might not be appropriate in other jurisdictions. {EDIT} It wouldn't be right in British English, for example; where "forfeit" is more neutral: e.g. an injured tennis player forfeits a match if injured and unable to play. {ENDEDIT}
"List of forfeited/removed/voided bridge results AKA disqualifications" could be a useful (and hopefully small, and almost closed) list, but would probably need bluelinks to specific events to be of value - e.g. not just Spingold, but 20xx Spingold - and certainly a more precise title. Narky Blert (talk) 23:26, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
Remember that there are at least 4 different categories we need to deal with. This is just with the ACBL, we can assume similar with WBF, EBL. Will use examples for ACBL for 4 different categories.

1) Titles within last 4 years. 2) Titles > 4 years old by a cheating player 3) Titles > 4 years old by a team with a cheating player 4) All titles won with a cheating player (could be a pair event, e.g. Donna Compton/Fantoni World). For each of these we have to decide how to handle them on the player's page and also the Wiki page for the event. For (2) and (3) we need to decide if we list the players with a strike-through, or remove them. For me, these are "tainted titles". We can do a strike-through but need to explain why a player has a strike-through.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 05:36, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

The Tainted title term is intended to cover ACBL/EBL/WBF etc. It is not intended as ACBL specific. ACBL has stated its rules on what will happen to the titles; the IBF has spoken. We are still waiting on EBL/WBF. Their opinion is expected soon. It could be that they choose to move teams up as they did for Seniors 2013. We need to avoid being ACBL-centric in these discussions.

See for a proposed "Tainted title" page. Edit as appropriate. After a couple of days I plan to upt this page up on Wikipedia as 'Tainted title'Nicolas.hammond (talk) 15:52, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

I remain unconvinced that a separate "Tainted titles" page is necessary. There are already four places where the facts can be presented: (1) the bio page for each individual, (2) the results page for the event affected, (3) the "X and Y cheating allegation" page (presumably soon to become the "X and Y cheating scandal" page) and (4) the Cheating in bridge page. Surely, whatever relevant additional information is or becomes available can be located in these places.    Newwhist (talk) 19:43, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
See the sample page and how it affects the results of the Spingold. I think we need a central place where we explain the effects on the titles from the cheating pairs. For (1) the bio of the individual, we can show forfeited titles, (2) can show the information but there are a lot of titles, and no single place for explanation, (3) can have details, (4) is getting crowded. You haven't discussed (5) - players who played on teams in last 4 years (if ACBL) and also (6) players who played on the teams but 4+ years earlier. Using Spingold as reference, how do we distinguish between 2011 (Zimmerman keeps title) and 2012 (Zimmerman loses titles). If you look at the tainted title page it covers more than just ACBL. If affects EBL/WBF/IBF etc. I do think we need a central place to explain all the weird complicated rules in place.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 00:44, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Outside of "tainted title" discussion, we still need to decide how to show on Wikipedia the tainted titles. I have shown one example for Spingold in This shows the Spingold table before the titles, and a proposed version after the tainted titles are removed. Thoughts/comments?Nicolas.hammond (talk) 02:56, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I like the strike-through treatment of your mock-up. It has high visual impact drawing the eyes' attention and, still being readable, allows the reader to get a 'before and after' effect. I am not sure about placing the note within the same table cell as the strike-through entries. Would a footnote be better? As a minimum, I would put the note below the strike-through entries. Also, I would make the link in the note to the "X and Y cheating allegation/scandal" page and not to the bio pages. Newwhist (talk) 12:17, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
For each of the times in ACBL land when a title/rank is forfeited I can add a ref to the cheating allegation for the pair. I think this is correct. We can also, if needed, create a 'tainted titles' page on the cheating allegation/scandal which lists the titles that they won. Would like to be consistent. With the Senior Bowl in 2013 the original German winners are not listed. I think this is correct. Each Bridge Organization is doing its own thing. WBF moved teams up. ACBL doesn't. I think we should use the strike-through for ACBL titles. We can keep what is happening in Senior bowl page as is. There is no mention. We need to decide when we apply these changes. We can do it now, or we can wait until after the ACBL automatic appeal for FS and FN which will be held in Orlando in November. I think we should consider doing it now (or soon) as this is the current state of affairs. If FS or FN appeal, and win, then we can revert back. We still don't know what will happen to PS titles/ranks so perhaps we should wait for this first. As/when these changes are made, they will be quite time-consuming. I'd like to look at adding more players to Wikipedia. Reason is that if we are editing all the NABC title pages, it is trivial to put in links to players. I think all winners of the major ACBL events - VSR - should have a Wiki page. Same with Blue Ribbon/Platinum Pairs winners. Same with all Bermuda Bowl winners and any other World Championship winners - they are all deserving of a Wiki page IMHO.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 14:20, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Regarding one suggestion that Nicolas Hammond illustrated in user space (sandbox section 1.4, Spingold), see the new user talk page (and section, to anticipate others) User talk:Nicolas.hammond/sandbox#Spingold. --P64 (talk) 23:03, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

In Nov 2016, ACBL decided that FN, FS would lose all titles, but teammates keep all titles except Spingold 2015. The ACBL Bulletin Editor is trying to decide how to show history of previous winners - they are in the same situation that Wiki is in. Note that this is not just an ACBL problem - EBL, WBF will have the same issue. Some appeals are still pending.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 14:45, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Patrick Jourdain[edit]

I've created an article for Patrick Jourdain, who died a few days ago. He's more notable as a journalist than he was as a player. There are a couple of things in his article that may be of particular interest. One is his role in unmasking Tony Haworth's cheating. Neither Jourdain's Daily Telegraph obituary nor the one on the WBF site mention Haworth by name, but cross-referencing with our Cheating in bridge article there's no doubt that this case was the one they were referring to, so I've included his name in my article. Jourdain also discovered that a female player at the 2002 World Championships was not given a medal because she refused to take a drugs test, though her team-mates were awarded theirs. I don't know who she was (again the DT and the WBF were reticent), but the case was widely reported at the time so it would be easy to find out. JH (talk page) 20:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Disa, just played against her in Washtingon - see (talk) 01:22, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. By chance I'd stumbled across her Wikipedia article yesterday, when looking for references to Jourdain to turn into wikilinks, and realised that she was the player in question. The citations in her article include one for Jourdain's original Telegraph piece breaking the story which you've linked to above. JH (talk page) 07:21, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Should we not have a paragraph in the Cheating in bridge article about PEDS and results of all tests conducted thusfar? Newwhist (talk) 17:17, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
Done. Should probably use transclusion for this at some point as work copied in two places.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 19:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC)


See for Wikipedia decision on categories applicable to Bridge. All categories should follow these guidelines. [[Unsigned]

Am aware and have updated several categories accordingly; still more to do. See here and unhide table. agenda. Newwhist (talk) 00:18, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. All names of categories updated. Newwhist (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Helen Portugal[edit]

Anyone know if she played under a different name? Either before or after marriage?Nicolas.hammond (talk) 04:02, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

BPE IE (1967) records her as "Portugal, Helen (Mrs. Morris)". The next entry is "Portugal, Morris", who looks to have been her husband. "Mrs. Morris Portugal" would be an old-fashioned (and thankfully obsolete) way of naming her. I don't know her maiden name. Narky Blert (talk) 00:02, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Steve Sion/Richard Katz[edit]

We do not have articles on these players. Should we? Nicolas.hammond (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes but perhaps given the extent of events post initial suspension, an article on cheating (Sion and Katz cheating allegation) might be more appropriate than individual bio articles on each. Newwhist (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Perhaps similar to FS (or FN). Document their wins, their history, then use transclusion for the Sion/Katz cheating allegation/incidents, then Sion/Katz law suit. Then a separate item on Sion on additional cheating. Sion/Katz are only 10+ NABC winners without their own page.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 00:51, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm comfortable with this approach. Their names are (as I understand it) on lots of trophies, which imo makes them WP:NOTABLE, even without more; which there is; I support the idea of an article on the allegations. Narky Blert (talk) 23:52, 13 August 2016 (UTC)


There are blank lines in some lists of Bridge Accomplishments. A Wiki tool is going through cleaning them up as they interfere with accessibility issues. For example, see changes to Richard Freeman (bridge) by looking at comparisons here: I updated everyone's automatically generated profile at Github. If you are editing a player, please update the Bridge accomplishments.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Sidney Lenz[edit]

I'm happy to say that Herostratus has created an article on Sidney Lenz. who had been perhaps the most glaring omission from our articles on notable players. My thanks to him. JH (talk page) 21:50, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your gracious words! Yes I was surprised that there was no Lenz article. I now notice that the Dutch Wikipedia has an article on the Bridge Battle of the Century (the name given in English) but we do not, and I propose to rectify that immediately; we can't have the Dutch ahead of us, here. Herostratus (talk) 22:03, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
@Herostratus: Let me add my thanks as well. We need more editors interested in contract bridge to join in and spur us all on. Thanks much. Newwhist (talk) 22:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC)
OK! Since y'all are so nice, here is Bridge Battle of the Century done. It has just one ref yet; it needs to be fleshed out some, and I'll do that (and probably add some more to Lenz's article) down the road; other editors would be most welcome of course! Herostratus (talk) 23:22, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

World Bridge Games[edit]

Now that the World Bridge Games is being held independently of the World Mind Sport Games, I thought that it ought to have its own article, rather than being a redirect to the WMSG, as had previously been the case. So I've created one. It's very much a minimalist stub at the moment. However there's a lot more than could be said, with the 2016 event having had no fewer than three separate controversies. There's a very good description in an article by Shireen Mohandes in the January 2017 issue of the British magazine Bridge on pages 50-53, which can be found here: - I don't think you have to be a subscriber to read it. If/when time permits, I'll extend the article that I've created, but if anybody else would like to do so in the mean time they'd be very welcome. JH (talk page) 19:41, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

New categories?[edit]

I propose two new Wikipedia:DUPCAT categories within Category:Contract bridge players, namely: Category:Bermuda Bowl players and Category:Venice Cup players. They could be easily (if incompletely) populated from existing articles. However, I've had a category renamed from pillar to post before now, so am raising this idea here to seek a WP:CONSENSUS as to whether (a) those categories are needed and (b) whether my suggested names are the right ones. Narky Blert (talk) 00:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Seems reasonable and I support provided that all identifiable entrants be listed and not just those with existing Wiki articles or only those who were winners or runners-up. I assume that there would be no red links - just unlinked names where the individual has no article. This would also be one more helpful means of identifying worthy candidates for main articles where non exists. Would the date(s) of entry and their final placing(s) be included? Assembling such a list would be a challenging task but, being an inclusionist, I have no concerns beyond the level of difficulty involved. With respect to the title of the proposed category, I am OK with it but some editors seem to want 'contract bridge' in place of just 'bridge' or 'players' (reference the recent renaming of all the categories of bridge players by nationality). Newwhist (talk) 13:46, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
It seems that you are thinking in terms of a list, whereas what Nanky Blert has proposed is a couple of categories. It's inherent in categories that only those who already have articles would appear in it. Of course there's no reason why there shouldn't be a list in addition to having categories. I think the categories could be useful. One question is whether they should be limited to the Bermuda Bowl and Venice Cup, or should include other world championships such as the so-called Olympiads and their successors the Mind Sport Games and the World Bridge Games. If we went the latter route, I'm not sure what a suitable but reasonably succinct name would be. JH (talk page) 16:32, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
You are correct - I was confusing category with list. The category concept is without question appropriate. It is unlikely that the concept should be limited to just the Bermuda Bowl and the Venice Cup but, at this time, I am not sure how to establish a criteria for inclusion/exclusion. Is the concept used for the events of any other sport? Newwhist (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
I imagine that biographies for players of most sports will have something similar to distinguish those who have played at international level. Cricket, with which I'm most familiar, has categories for England Test cricketers, Australia Test cricketers, etc. JH (talk page) 20:12, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
I was thinking only of creating categories for people with existing articles; therefore, no redlinks. I have a general distaste for lists, although they can provoke editors to write articles.
I agree that other "played in" categories could be useful too. As could "winners of" notable events. But, only for something notable. IMO Category:Vanderbilt Trophy players would clearly be silly, but e.g. Category:Vanderbilt Trophy winners would not.
As for other national or international categories which might be appropriate, I would suggest posting in this forum and seeking WP:CONSENSUS. I proposed those two categories because I'll need a lot of convincing that anyone who has played in the BB or VC is not notable. Narky Blert (talk) 23:33, 11 January 2017 (UTC)