Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One

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WikiProject Formula One (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This article is part of WikiProject Formula One, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to Formula One, including drivers, teams and constructors, events and history. Feel free to join the project and help with any of the tasks or consult the project page for further information.
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Lap leader charts[edit]

During the GA review of 2015 Mexican Grand Prix, the reviewer Saskoiler suggested a caption to be added for the lap leader chart. I do not really consider this necessary and I also do not know if it is technically possible, so I wanted to get your thoughts on it. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:42, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, why would we need a caption? The "Lap Leader" title I think makes it clear enough, we'd just be repeating that surely? CDRL102 (talk) 21:27, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

In case anyone's interested here's the 2015 GA progress box:

29 articles
B-Class article 2015 Formula One season
Featured article 2015 Formula One season
Good article 2015 Australian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Malaysian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Chinese Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Bahrain Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Spanish Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Monaco Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Canadian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Austrian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 British Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Hungarian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Belgian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Italian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Singapore Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Japanese Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Russian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 United States Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Mexican Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Brazilian Grand Prix
Good article 2015 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix
Stub-Class article Ferrari SF15-T
Stub-Class article Force India VJM08
Stub-Class article Lotus E23 Hybrid
C-Class article Marussia MR03
Good article McLaren MP4-30
Failed good article nominee Mercedes F1 W06 Hybrid
Stub-Class article Red Bull RB11
Stub-Class article Sauber C34
Stub-Class article Toro Rosso STR10
Stub-Class article Williams FW37

Tvx1 14:03, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

I nominated 2015 Formula One season for GA some time ago, but during its review some major concerns were raised. I'm not sure what to make of them, so if anyone wants to weigh in their opinion they can do so here. Tvx1 00:01, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

It has finally received GA status now. Only the car articles remain now. Tvx1 02:06, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

@Tvx1: Since I do not feel that we will get the car articles there, I nominated the reports for Good Topic yesterday under the name "2015 Formula One season reports". You can weight in here. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:59, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
2015 Formula One season is a featured article now. Congrats to all the contributors. Tvx1 23:22, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Bernie Ecclestone[edit]

The article on Bernie Ecclestone has been nominated for appearing in the ITN section of the main page. However, there are some referencing issued that need addressing before it can appear, should consensus be gained for its posting. Assistance requested please. Mjroots (talk) 13:10, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Season article names[edit]

Should season article pages still be named "19XX/20XX Formula One season"?

Looking across Wikipedia, I cannot help but notice that the "season" moniker has largely been dropped. For example, the current WEC season is located at 2017 FIA World Endurance Championship, rather than "2017 FIA World Endurance Championship season". To my mind, "season" should only be used in the case of something like "2017 WEC season" (not the greatest example, I know, but you see what I mean). This change was mostly made because "championship season" is largely redundant, but also because in some cases (though not in Formula One), there is a top-level article above the primary championship article, one that unifies all lower-level articles, such as 2016 V8 Supercar season (top-level article) and 2016 International V8 Supercars Championship (primary championship article).

Within the context of global motorsport, there are five categories that the FIA awards "World Championship" status to—Formula One, rallying, rallycross, touring cars and endurance racing. But we don't name articles consistently. Here are the five season articles corresponding with the five championships:

  1. 2017 Formula One season
  2. 2017 World Rally Championship
  3. 2017 FIA World Rallycross Championship
  4. 2017 World Touring Car Championship
  5. 2017 FIA World Endurance Championship

As you can see, Formula One season articles are the only ones that are inconsistent with the wider scope of global motorsport. Therefore, I think that season articles should be moved to a new location: either 2017 Formula One World Championship or 2017 FIA Formula One World Championship (I am unsure about the latter; I would have to look at season articles for sports outside motorsport to see if sanctioning bodies are incorporated into article titles; it might be an issue for WP:MOTOR once this is resolved).

This does constitute a fairly significant way to the way we present content, and that there may be some resistance, so please allow me to put your fears to rest:

  • Firstly, this does involve some degree of work. We do need to move sixty-nine articles to new homes, but it's a very straightforward process, and moving automatically generates redirects. A few years ago, the WRC season articles were moved from "20XX World Rally Championship season" to "20XX World Rally Championship", and it went off without a hitch. More to the point, editors adapted to the change quickly. If we move everything up to and including 2018 Formula One season, then by the time we need to create something new, it will be second nature.
  • While we are moving the articles to something consistent with the wider context of global motorsport, this is not an issue for WP:MOTOR. The issue is exclusive to Formula One season articles, and so falls entirely within the domain of WP:F1.
  • I appreciate that some people might want to keep the current names as per WP:COMMONNAME. However, COMMONNAME states that Wikipedia "generally prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources", and I generally cannot recall the last time I saw the season referred to as "20XX Formula One season" in reliable sources. Maybe "the upcoming season" or "the current season", but never to refer to the season as a whole. Just about everything that I have seen refers to it as the "20XX Formula One World Championship", and so I feel that this is a better fix under COMMONNAME.

Given that this potentially affects the first point of contact between the reader and the article, I'm going to tag as many regular editors as I can think of who might want to contribute. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:02, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Here we go, in no particular order except the order in which I thought of you: Tvx1, MordeKyle, Wicka wicka, Mjroots, Pyrope, DH85868993, Eagleash, Sabbatino, Corvus tristis, Zwerg Nase, QueenCake, Bretonbanquet
I apologise if I missed anyone. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:16, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
I'd say that the "FIA" bit could be dropped, as they run almost all motorsport outside the USA AFAIK. Now, when you say "2017 Formula One World Championship", do you mean the "2017 Formula One World Driver's Championship" or the "2017 Formula One World Constructor's Championship", both of which are to be fought for during the 2017 Formula One season. In other words, the current style is fine. Mjroots (talk) 06:25, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
@Mjroots2017 World Rally Championship details the 2017 World Rally Championship for Drivers, 2017 World Rally Championship for Co-Drivers, and the 2017 World Rally Championship for Manufacturers. 2017 FIA World Endurance Championship details the World Championships for drivers and manufacturers, as well as the championships for four classes of competition. The WTCC season articles also detail multiple titles that are contested parallel, as do the World RX articles. So not only is it not unheard-of to include multiple titles within an article, it's standard practice.
While the current style might be "fine", "fine" is not necessarily the best way of doing it. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:38, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
I think the current names are the most suitable. Factors to consider:
  • The articles don't just cover the championships, they also cover non-championship F1 races held during the year.
  • None of the races comprising the 1952 World Drivers' Championship were run to Formula One regulations (the majority were run to F2 regs; the Indy 500 was run to AAA/USAC regs), so I believe "1952 Formula One World Championship" would be an inappropriate title for the article. Noting that I believe the current title, "1952 Formula One season" is appropriate because the article does cover the F1 races held in 1952, in addition to the 1952 WDC. Likewise for 1953.
DH85868993 (talk) 11:08, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── In which case, those articles could be kept as is. But the 2017 article, for example, shouldn't retain a name that doesn't accurately fit it simply because that name does suit the 1952 article (and an overall minority of articles). There is no policy that says articles should have an homogenised naming structure, especially when differing naming conventions can reasonably be applied as the situation requires. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 11:39, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that there is no policy that says articles should have an homogenised naming structure, but I do not agree that the name "2017 Formula One season" does not accurately fit the contents of the article. DH85868993 (talk) 12:13, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Because of previous sets of rules that haven't been used for decades? How is "2017 Formula One season" a better fit than "2017 Formula One World Championship" given the context of global motorsport on Wikipedia? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 12:30, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

One format that might work is "(year) in Formula One", which would fit with other articles such as 2017 in aviation, 2017 in rail transport, 2017 in science etc. Mjroots (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Why Formula One articles retain the season suffix has been carefully explained in the thorough discussion which preceded the big change of the titles of motor racing season/championship articles. The reason why 2017 Formula One season" does accurately fit the contents of the article, is because it, just like all the previous F1 season articles, deals with all the competitive Formula One racing in the given year. The difference between the other mentioned 2017 FIA World Championships is that the other four do not cover all competitive racing that year in the relevant class of motor racing, whereas the F1 article does. 2017 World Rally Championship, does not cover all World Rally competition in 2017, 2017 FIA World Rallycross Championship does not cover all competitive Rallycross racing in 2017. 2017 World Touring Car Championship does not cover all Touring Car racing in 2017. 2017 FIA World Endurance Championship does not cover all competitive Endurance Racing in 2017. 2017 Formula One season, however, patently does cover all competitive Formula One racing in 2017. That's why the season suffix is entirely appropriate for Formula One articles. The change of the names of Motorsport series/season articles was never intended to create a completely homogenised naming for all Motorsports. Its intent was to remove the season suffix, or replace it with a championship/series suffix, where its presence was inappropriate. For F1, it's not inappropriate at all.Tvx1 16:52, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

  • I am opposed to the addition of the word championship. Formula One is known as Formula One, not Formula One Championship. WEC, WRC, WTCC, they are all know with the word Championship in the name. It is part of their name. 20xx Formula One season is the most accurate description of what it is.  {MordeKyle  20:12, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
"The reason why 2017 Formula One season" does accurately fit the contents of the article, is because it, just like all the previous F1 season articles, deals with all the competitive Formula One racing in the given year."
Please give me an example of competitive Formula One racing that is covered by the article but run outside the championship.
"Formula One is known as Formula One, not Formula One Championship"
Except by the FIA and FOM. Everything that they produce in relation to the sport describes it as the Formula One World Championship. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 20:27, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Please give me an example of competitive Formula One racing that is covered by the article but run outside the championship.
— User:Prisonermonkeys 20:27, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

.
I really don't see the point but if you insist: 1957 Pau Grand Prix, 1966 South African Grand Prix, 1978 BRDC International Trophy, 1983 Race of Champions and many many more. All of them Formula One races outside of the World Championship which are covered in the relevant season articles nonetheless. But that's not even the point. The point is that there is no competitive Formula One racing other than which is covered in the season articles. This is a clear difference to the other cited examples. For instance, in addition to the 2017 World Touring Car Championship, there is also a British Touring Car Championship and a German Touring Car Championship among others. That's where there is a difference and why we don't have an article on "the" 2017 Touring Car season.Tvx1 21:50, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
"For instance, in addition to the 2017 World Touring Car Championship, there is also a British Touring Car Championship and a German Touring Car Championship among others."
Those are structured as completely separate championships. Nowhere is it stated or implied that they have any relationship to the WTCC.
"The point is that there is no competitive Formula One racing other than which is covered in the season articles."
I would dispute that. Formula One is the top tier of formula racing—bespoke, open-wheel racing cars built to a formula: a specific set of rules and regulations. That's what the "one" designates: the primary class. We also have Formula 3 and the FIA has made clear their intentions to revive Formula 2. In that sense, Formula One is no different to the World Rally Championship and the WRC-2 and WRC-3, or MotoGP, Moto2 and Moto3. There may not be Formula One racing outside the World Championship, but there is formula racing. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:42, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
I can see what you're saying with this, but I'm not convinced that this changes the encyclopedic value of the content, nor would it make it any easier to for the purposes of indexing as far as searching goes. There would be a massive amount of stuff that would have to be changed, for basically no real benefit. The encyclopedic value between 2017 Formula One season and 2017 Formula One World Championship is basically null. If you wanted to do redirects, or change the name going forward, with redirects, I don't see a problem with that.  {MordeKyle  23:11, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

"There would be a massive amount of stuff that would have to be changed"

The season articles are the only things that would be moved. Moving "2017 Formula One season" to "2017 Formula One World Championship" automatically creates a redirect at "2017 Formula One season", so anything that links there—such as McLaren MCL32—will instead send the reader to "2017 Formula One World Championship" without needing editors to manually change the wikilinks.

"nor would it make it any easier to for the purposes of indexing as far as searching goes"

Wikipedia's software automatically takes care of this. If we move "2017 Formula One season" to "2017 Formula One World Championship" and somebody searches for the former, the search function will automatically identify the change.

"The encyclopedic value between 2017 Formula One season and 2017 Formula One World Championship is basically null."

There is no value in accurately representing content and keeping the article titles consistent within the context of global motorsport? Like I said, there are five disciplines with "World Championship" status, and Formula One season articles are the only season articles that are improperly named. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

I know how redirects work, my concern was with the amount of renaming to be done. I think the best thing to do is to name each season the way it would be officially named by the governing body, if there was one. So for example, probably leave 1949 Grand Prix season alone. Otherwise, I support whatever the official name is of the season, being the name of each article.  {MordeKyle  23:55, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
@MordeKyle: In 1958, the two Formula One championships were called the "1958 World Championship of Drivers" and the "1958 International Cup for F1 Manufacturers". What name would you suggest for the article which covers both of those championships (and also all the non-championship F1 races held during 1958)? DH85868993 (talk) 00:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
@DH85868993:Do we not have the same thing now? Again, I think we should use whatever the official title of the series/championship is/was. I honestly don't suggest we change the name of articles like that. If there are non-championship races in a season, maybe it's best to leave it alone. Or if we do change the name, explain it in the prose. I don't think it's really that big of an issue.  {MordeKyle  01:08, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
If there are non-championship races, do what Supercars articles do. The series runs a non-championship round at Albert Park in support of the Australian Grand Prix, but because it's a non-championship round, it isn't included in the championship article. It's included in the top-level article. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 01:16, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
We can't use the Supercars way because we don't have top-level articles and separate articles for the championships for F1. We only have the season articles. And it has always been their intention to cover all of the international competitive Formula One racing in any given year.Tvx1 01:29, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I would use "1958 Formula One World Championship" for the article and use the prose to explain that there were two separate titles contested as part of the chsmpionship. The two titles are for two different groups—drivets and manufacturers—so it should be okay.
Even then, "1958 Formula One season" is still acceptable, even if we change every other article to "World Championship". All I am suggesting is that we rename season articles to have the most appropriate name. Articles shouldn't be forced to have an inappropriate name simply for the sake of having homogeneous article titles that only benefit a minority of articles. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:33, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
True, but the only flaw in your reasoning is that you're the only one considering the current naming scheme inappropriate.  {MordeKyle , there is no 'official name of the f1 season" nor has there ever been one. We have had two championships (since 1958, one before that), with their own official names but they are not synonymous with the seasons. As said before, for years these championships were known as the "World Championship of Drivers" and the "International Cup for F1 Manufacturers" (thus not only in 1958). The name "FIA Formula One World Championship" has only been used since 1981. So I really don't see how retroactively applying a name to years when it didn't even exist yet is more appropriate than using the current title which is descriptive of its content. Moreover during its first two decades the world championships would contain a myriad of F1, F2 and AAA races. So changing the titles to XXXX F1 World Championship really doesn't make any sense.Tvx1 01:20, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

"the only flaw in your reasoning is that you're the only one considering the current naming scheme inappropriate"

That's what the process of achieving consensus is for.

"The name "FIA Formula One World Championship" has only been used since 1981. So I really don't see how retroactively applying a name to years when it didn't even exist yet is more appropriate than using the current title which is descriptive of its content."

So only apply it from 1981 onwards. Having a name change halfway through a series of articles doesn't compromise the entire series. Look at the Supercars articles. They started out as the Australian Touring Car Championship, then became V8 Supercars when the series underwent a name change, even though drivers still compete for the title of "Australian Touring Car Champion". When the series was granted "International" status, the articles were created with the name International V8 Supercars Championship. And now that the series has been revised again, the articles are known as the Supercars Championship. That's four different article names in the past thirty or so years, but that doesn't compromise them.

If the FIA started formally considering the season a World Championship, then the articles should be called "World Championship" instead of "season" from that point on. After all, teams and drivers compete for the World Championship titles. If your argument boils down to keeping "season" because the articles have always been called "season", then I don't find that to be a particularly valid argument because these things can and do change, and that that argument doesn't take changes into account or make any allowance for them.

"19XX/20XX Formula 1 World Championship" is the name that is most representative of the sport—both now and from an historical perspective. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 02:13, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Is Formula One not a top level article?  {MordeKyle  02:27, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
That's an overview—it deals with the sport in the broadest possible sense, and does not focus on specific seasons (though it may give details from specific seasons to better-illustrate a point). A better example would be the articles that unify all of the Formula Renault championships run in a year, which contain links to specific season articles (where such articles exist), such as 2015 Formula Renault seasons. I think NASCAR does something similar, too. In the case of formula racing, the top-level article would be "2017 in Formula racing" (that name is off the top of my head) and would contain links to the individual Formula 1, Formula 2 and Formula 3 season articles.
I should note that "top-level article" is a term of my own invention, largely because I needed a way to describe it. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 02:43, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Ahh ok.  {MordeKyle  03:28, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Look at the Supercars articles. They started out as the Australian Touring Car Championship, then became V8 Supercars when the series underwent a name change, even though drivers still compete for the title of "Australian Touring Car Champion". When the series was granted "International" status, the articles were created with the name International V8 Supercars Championship. And now that the series has been revised again, the articles are known as the Supercars Championship. That's four different article names in the past thirty or so years, but that doesn't compromise them.
— User:Prisonermonkeys 02:13, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Your comparison constitutes a logical fallacy because the name of the series we are discussing never changed. Formula One has always been Formula One since 1946. The only thing that changed over the years, is that the formal names of the championships F1 Drivers and Manufacturers compete in were altered a couple of times. But as explained before, the season articles have never been intended to exclusively deal with the World Championships.

If your argument boils down to keeping "season" because the articles have always been called "season", then I don't find that to be a particularly valid argument because these things can and do change, and that that argument doesn't take changes into account or make any allowance for them.
— User:Prisonermonkeys 02:13, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

That's not the argument and you know it. Don't make claims I have made arguments I haven't made. The argument is that the premise of every F1 season article is that it covers all international competitive Formula One racing of said year. Please provide one instance of current international competitive Formula One racing not covered in the 2017 article.

"19XX/20XX Formula 1 World Championship" is the name that is most representative of the sport—both now and from an historical perspective.
— User:Prisonermonkeys 02:13, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

That's just your opinion, so please don't act like this is fact. I am one of many who have stated their disagreement with that stance during the course of this discussion.Tvx1 04:11, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

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"Please provide one instance of current international competitive Formula One racing not covered in the 2017 article."

I have already asked you to do that, and you ignored it. You know perfectly well that the only instance of current international competitive Formula One racing is the World Championship, and yet you continue to insist that "Formula One World Championship" is inappropriate as an article title despite an overwhelming majority of reliable and verifiable sources referring to it as the "Formula One World Championship". You're the one who insists that the official FIA sources take priority over anything else, and can only be over-ridden by another official FIA source—as evidenced by your argument here, where you insist that MRT must remain in the table despite dozens of reliable sources that say they have closed because the FIA hasn't issued a new entry list—but here, you're ignoring those same official FIA sources that refer to the season as a World Championship. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:35, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Please read other people comments before making (an actually your own as well) claims about what they wrote. This is what you asked:

Please give me an example of competitive Formula One racing that is covered by the article but run outside the championship.
— User:Prisonermonkeys 20:27, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

And this is my reply to that:

I really don't see the point but if you insist: 1957 Pau Grand Prix, 1966 South African Grand Prix, 1978 BRDC International Trophy, 1983 Race of Champions and many many more. All of them Formula One races outside of the World Championship which are covered in the relevant season articles nonetheless.
— User:Tvx1 21:50, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

So clearly, I patently did not ignore your request. So please stop telling these untruths. Now here is my question:

Please provide one instance of current international competitive Formula One racing not covered in the 2017 article.
— User:Tvx1 4:14, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Can you spot the difference between the questions?
Now I indeed think it is inappropriate to rename the article, but whether or not your proposed name has been used in real life has nothing to do with it. I think it's inappropriate because the proposed new name does no fit the purpose, the intention we have given this articles through the years, which is to cover all international competitive formula one racing in any given year. The current titles give a descriptive explanation of what the articles deal with. I can't see the encyclopedic benefit in the proposed renaming, nor do I see why we must implement a change just for the sake of it despite no one having complained about failing to understand what the F1 season articles are about. Also I'm going to tag Falcadore here, a regular contributor you forgot to mention in your opening statements.Tvx1 14:26, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

The language used in individual race reports and templates specifically refers to the season as a World Championship, not as a season. The only place "season" is used is in article titles. "World Championship" is a much more accurate name to use. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 06:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Arbitrarily chosen wording in articles has low meaningful value on this. But even so, your claim is simply incorrect. All of those articles use the wording "Formula One season". It would help your argument if you'd actually bother to do some research before making conclusions. The last sentence is yet again merely your personal opinion, not a fact, and it is clearly based on an incorrect assumption of the content of our articles.Tvx1 11:04, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
This is the most contrived wording imaginable:
"The 2018 Formula One season is planned to be the 72nd season of FIA Formula One motor racing. It is scheduled to feature the 69th Formula One World Championship, a motor racing championship for Formula One cars."
It is vague and unclear; you start talking about the 72nd season and then switch to talking about the 69th championship without reason, explanation or subsequent reference to the 72nd season. The talk the season featuring the World Championship implies that there is racing outside the championship, but a) there is no further reference to it, and b) there is no Formula One racing outside the championship.
The whole thing appears to have been written specifically to get out of renaming the article title. The older version worked just fine until now, and there is nothing wrong with that wording except that it leaves open the door to renaming the article with something more accurate. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 22:59, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
More personal opinion. It's the exact same style of wording used for every season article. No one has complained about it through the years, so I'm pretty sure it's quite clear. And why would one have to go into detail about basic calculus. The first Formula One race was the 1946 Turin Grand Prix. The first full season of Formula One races was 1947. That makes 2018 the 72nd season. The WC started in 1950, which makes 2018 the 69th one. Your also overfocussing on one individual article and not looking at the greater picture. Sure there is no racing outside the championships now, but many of the season articles using this wording did include such races. Most importantly, the only intended implication is that Formula One racing existed before the first world championship was held. Why should our dealing with Formula One racing be exclusive to the World Championship? We even mention the 1913 and 1914 editions in the Russian Grand Prix, even though they were held well before the creation of Formula One. Furthermore, your claim that this appears to have been written specifically to get out of renaming the article title is simply ludicrous. In fact this wording actually is the older wording and it is your newer wording which appears to have been deliberately entered to create justification for the renaming you have been demanding. No sooner did you make your change on the 2017 article, reverted by deFacto, or you came here to state that it was proof in favor of the demanded change, while at the same time making the completely inaccurate claim that your wording is used in "all" the article. In reality every world championship race report states "....... Grand Prix was the XXst/nd/rd/th round of the XXXX Formula One season" while their infoboxes state "Round XX of XX of the XXXX Formula One season".Tvx1 23:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
"It's the exact same style of wording used for every season article"
Bullshit. It's a recent addition at best—it's only been added in the past few weeks at most, not the decades that you claimed elsewhere. I know because I came up with the original draft of the wording for the lead that has been applied to the articles, and I know that it hasn't changed much.
"Why should our dealing with Formula One racing be exclusive to the World Championship?"
Please point out a single example of Formula One racing that has taken place outside the World Championship in the past twenty-five years. There hasn't been any, so there's your answer. The article wording implies that there is racing outside the championship, which we know is untrue, but you insist that the articles should all maintain homogenised wording even though this wording is currently redundant, unnecessary and implies things that we can prove to be untrue. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 23:47, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
It is the wording that has been used for decades-worth of season articles for ages. That you refuse to accept that doesn't change it. Just take a look a the histories of the dozens of season articles. As for your second question. That has been replied to in full previously. Every F1 season article covers all international competitive Formula One racing in said season. And that claim applies just as much to 1950 Formula One season as it does to 2017 Formula One season. That the current wording implies non-championship racing, even it doesn't say there is anywhere, is just your opinion. I disagree with it and have already explained what the only thing it implies actually is.Tvx1 10:45, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
"It is the wording that has been used for decades-worth of season articles for ages."

Correction: it has been used for weeks. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 20:13, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

No. Do some research before making claims. If you look in the history of season articles, you'll see that in most of them it has been used for years.Tvx1 20:23, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Again, that's bullshit. It has not been used for years as you claim.

But let's talk about something else: the massive hole in your argument. You claim that "season" is the most appropriate name to use because the article addresses all Formula One racing, not just the World Championship. This implies that there is racing outside the championship, which has not been the case for decades. So why do you continue to support an argument that is patently untrue and push for a wording that is misleading and inaccurate? More to the point, why do you refuse to address this in conversation? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 05:38, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Again, that's bullshit. It has not been used for years as you claim.
— User:Prisonermonkeys 05:38, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok. You refuse to accept the truth and you also refuse to do any research to back up your claim. So allow me to prove I'm telling the truth. Let's take a random example season article. Say, 1985 Formula One season. This is how it looks like now. This is what it looked like one year ago. This is what it looked like two years ago. Three years ago, Four years ago, Five years ago. Get the picture? So please stop your incorrect claims that this style of wording hasn't been used for years. It patently has been.

You claim that "season" is the most appropriate name to use because the article addresses all Formula One racing, not just the World Championship. This implies that there is racing outside the championship, which has not been the case for decades. So why do you continue to support an argument that is patently untrue and push for a wording that is misleading and inaccurate? More to the point, why do you refuse to address this in conversation?
— User:Prisonermonkeys 05:38, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

This is not my stance and I have already pointed that out to you before in this discussion:

That's not the argument and you know it. Don't make claims I have made arguments I haven't made. The argument is that the premise of every F1 season article is that it covers all international competitive Formula One racing of said year. Please provide one instance of current international competitive Formula One racing not covered in the 2017 article.
— User:Tvx1 04:11, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

And now matter how much you keep refusing to accept it, it doesn't change fact. Every season article covers all international competitive Formula One racing in the relevant year (thus they do if all of the racing was for the World Championship as well). It really baffles me that you keep desperately clinging to an incorrect assessment of my stance for more than two weeks now in thinking that would help your argument in away. As the passage above indicates I patiently have not refuses to address this in conversation. How difficult is it for someone who claims to be an English-language teacher to understand plain English language? In summary, nothing of what you wrote in your last reply is even remotely correct.Tvx1 13:53, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
"Every season article covers all international competitive Formula One racing in the relevant year"
And yet your argument and the wording of the articles imply that there is racing outside the championship. The word "includes" suggests that the championship is one part of a greater whole. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 20:10, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
It doesn't use the word "includes at all.Tvx1 21:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
"Scheduled to feature" - different wording, same problem. It implies that there is racing outside the championship when there is none. The only Formula One racing is the World Championship. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 00:25, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
No it doesn't imply that. That's just what you claim it does. You're just being overconcerned. What matters is what the article actually mentions. There is no mention of non championship races in the article so our readers are not being misled there is some. Season articles dealing with seasons including non championship races mention right away in the lead. In the above example the wording has existed for at least five years, yet no one came to the article's talk page with the question: "Hey what about non-championships the lead hints there have been?" The practical reality shows that our readers currently perfectly understand what the articles are intended to tell them.Tvx1 23:02, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
"There is no mention of non championship races in the article so our readers are not being misled there is some."

The first question a reader who is not familiar with the subject will ask is "The season features the World Championship? What else does it feature?". Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:49, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

How do you know that? Why do you think that? Why would they do so? Why has no-one complained if that's the case? Why can you not accept that you might be overconcerned? Nothing else is mentioned, so why on earth would anyone ask that question? It's abundantly clear that there is no other F1 racing this year but for the World Championship. We really should not be concerned about utterly hypothetical problems.Tvx1 11:50, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
"Why has no-one complained if that's the case?"

Because I'm thinking of the average reader here—someone with no prior knowledge of the sport who clicks on "Random Page" and winds up in the article. You're forgetting that we're an encyclopaedia and that we're writing for a broader audience than fans of the sport.

"It's abundantly clear that there is no other F1 racing this year but for the World Championship."

So why make the distinction between season and World Championship in the article? It's an unnecessary point to raise. If you're doing it because other articles with racing outside the championship do it, you should remember that there is no requirement for total homogeneity between articles, and editing decisions should be made based on the interests of the article in question, not the potential for introducing change elsewhere. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Homogeneity is not required but isn't prohibited either. The homogeneity we have introduced over the years works just fine and I can see nothing in this discussion that justifies ditching it. I cannot see how anything you proposed brings in any improvement. As said, there is no mention of non-championship racing in season's there wasn't any, so even the "average" reader will easily see that all F1 racing was for the world championship in such a year. The distinction between season and world championship is made because it exists in real life. Formula One racing and the world championship are not historically synonymous. In fact the former is even older than the latter and a couple of world championships didn't even feature any Formula One races at all. So the only thing the contested text does is providing our readers with accurate information.Tvx1 23:00, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
"I cannot see how anything you proposed brings in any improvement."

It's more specific; "World Championship" is a title rather than a generic descriptor.

It's more accurate; the article only discusses the World Championship.

It bring the article in line with other, related articles—World Rally Championship, World Endurance Championship, World Touring Car Championship and World Rallycross Championship; the five disciplines recognised by the FIA as World Championships. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:46, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I have already explained to you what the fundamental difference between Formula One and the other four is. These other four forms of motor racing have racing outside the aforementioned championships, F1 doesn't. These forms of motor racing are all run independently, so why on earth should we describe them in an identical manner? I'm getting awfully confused by your arguments. First you say that we should not have homogeneity within F1 articles and now you're demanding we create homogeneity between different, independent classes of motorsports. Being more specific isn't synonymous with improvement. In this case that would simultaneously be exclusive. The articles have always been intended to describe all of the international competitive Formula One racing in the relevant year and that's how it's presented to our readers.Tvx1 19:29, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
"These forms of motor racing are all run independently, so why on earth should we describe them in an identical manner?"
Because, as I have explained to you, the FIA is the only body with the power to declare what is a World Championship and what is not. It is a title that is formally issued to a championship; the text of articles points out that it is "a championship for Formula One cars recognised by the sport's governing body as the highest level of competition". That's what World Championship status is—the formal recognition that the championship is the highest class. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 20:37, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
That doesn't change the fact that they are all run independently and that there is the fundamental difference between Formula One and the other four. As said before, Formula One racing and the world championship are not historically synonymous.Tvx1 22:07, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Neither are all of the others. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 02:47, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

EU Parliament to probe F1 practices[edit]

It's being reported that the EU Parliament has voted to open an investigation into anti-competetive practices in F1. Should this info go into the 2017 season article or the general F1 article? Mjroots (talk) 18:23, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

That depends on if it will have implications on this season or not. Zwerg Nase (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
It's hard to see it having any impact on the 2017 season. For one, the investigation could still be going when the season ends. More importantly, it deals with the financial structure and commercial agreements of the sport. Even if the investigation concluded tomorrow and demanded substantial changes, it would likely require the negotiation of a new Concorde Agreement, and that will also take time. Prisonermonkeys (talk) 04:14, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
I suggest Formula One Group as the relevant article to report this, as the investigation is basically centered on them. The359 (Talk) 04:43, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
@The359: FYI: "Formula One Management (FOM) is the main operating company of the [Formula One] group, and controls the broadcasting, organisation and promotional rights of Formula One." Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:40, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

This is a misleading statement. The EU Parliament has not "voted to open an investigation"; they have passed a bill, part of which is worded as a request to the competition commission to please, if they would be so good, open an investigation sometime. The commission is not bound by this in any way, it is merely an advisory request. Leave it out until something actually happens and, please, read the sources properly. Pyrope 17:43, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Statistics table issue[edit]

Comment requested; Talk:Silverstone Circuit#Progression of records --Falcadore (talk) 23:55, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Power output[edit]

Do we have a position on the use of the power output parameter when filling out Template:Infobox racing car? An IP editor keeps filling it in for Mercedes AMG F1 W08 EQ Power+. They started out claiming that it was it was "> 900bhp", but had no reference; then they found a reference and made it "750 – 975bhp", but I think that a range of 225bhp is too vague. Now it's "900 – 975bhp", but they're using the same source as before.

The editor in question is right when they say that power output will vary depending on the engine setting, but between that and the general unwillingness of constructors to discuss (much less commit to) an actual figure, I have to ask: do we really need to include the power output in the infobox? Prisonermonkeys (talk) 03:54, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that we shouldn't include considering that constructors don't divulge exact figures. I removed it from the article in question because neither the listed minimum nor the maximum was stated in the source. This essentially made it guesswork by the IP and that is not encyclopedic writing.Tvx1 05:03, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
I suspect it's our friend the completionist—the same IP editor who felt compelled to add absolutely everything to the article earlier in the year. Even if it was only remotely related, like listing Geoff Willis as "Geoffrey Willis". Prisonermonkeys (talk) 10:42, 25 February 2017 (UTC)