Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany

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WikiProject Germany (Rated Project-class)
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Major expansion of Franconia[edit]

Hi folks, I'm wading my way through a major expansion of Franconia and notice that it is well referenced - unusual for German Wiki articles. I'm not sure I'll achieve the five-fold expansion within the DYK timescale, but wonder whether it will become a candidate for a Good Article once it's finished. Very happy for others to help with this as it's not something I've done before. Bermicourt (talk) 16:09, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

What needs to be done? Vami IV (talk) 14:47, 29 September 2016 (UTC) Gott Mit Uns! 09:47 (CST) 9/29/16
Well I guess we should complete the translation. Then we will need guidance in how to achieve GA status and maybe editors to assist in that. I'm not really sure how it works. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Sounds like a plan. Vami IV (talk) 14:47, 29 September 2016 (UTC) Gott Mit Uns! 09:47 (CST) 9/29/16

Train station names[edit]

Has there been a recent discussion that I missed? I just noticed that all the Munich S-Bahn stations were renamed recently. Agathoclea (talk) 14:42, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The editor posed the question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains/Rail transport in Germany task force, pointing out that it doesn't seem to be covered by our convention. I didn't have a particular issue with it, I have to say. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:00, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Hi folks, to be clear, the issue I raised initiallz was a tad bit different - it was about how to name S+U Bahn stations which have slightly different names according to the S-Bahn operator and the U-Bahn operator (as is the case with pretty much every Munich S+U Bahn station except the Hbf, probably). I see no reason why station names have to revert to the S-Bahn name (as in, why not Harras (Munich U-Bahn) as opposed to München Harras station).
  • In that discussion it gradually did migrate to station names in general. My opinion is that the common name of stations are simply their names without the city prefix - and so we should prefer names like Donnersburgerbrücke station or Rosenheimer Platz station (Munich) (wherever a differentiation is necessary). I say this because it seems absurd to refer to the station as München Donnersbergerbrücke station when no one really uses the city name as a prefix in everyday usage. These would be major changes, and I wouldn't really want to make that without a bigger discussion - I'd thought I'd come to it when I have the appetite for it.
  • Which is why for the moment I felt I could translate the names (city name) to English at least, more in line with what's written here, and certainly more in line with enwiki's common name policies as far as city naming goes.
I'd love to hear your opinions on this! MikeLynch (talk) 16:49, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Common name does not apply as we are talking about a component of the name of a station. To translate that would be WP:SYNTH. If that has been avoided internationally (that is not just regarding German stations) on highprofile stations we should all the more so avoid that on station where due to its lack of importance no common English name will have developed. Saying that, looking at common name in general, the other idea of loosing the town name altogether has traction, as those stations are rarely referred to by their full name except maybe München-Pasing. Agathoclea (talk) 07:11, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
I do agree that it's not the best compromise at the moment, and I'd rather remove the name of the city altogether (as you say, exceptions could be for stations like Pasing or Berlin Gesundbrunnen, for instance). That would, however, require quite some effort to normalise all the names under Category:S-Bahn stations in Germany that is currently a grand mess. @Agathoclea, @Bermicourt and others, do you think we should create and establish more clear guidelines and start moving the pages? MikeLynch (talk) 10:09, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
@Agathoclea:, @Bermicourt: and others, I modified the conventions page that we have to add this:
Deutsche Bahn officially uses the city name as a prefix when referring to many S-Bahn stations located within cities (e.g. München-Harras station). However, this full, prefixed name is not often the most commonly used or recognised name, and article titles should typically omit the city prefix. When a certain station name exists in two or more cities, then the name of the city should be used in parantheses to disambiguate. Exceptions would be: Central railway stations, as well as major stations which cater to a large number of long-distance train services (e.g. Munich-Pasing station or Hamburg-Altona station) because they serve long-distance trains. Therefore, their scope would be throughout Germany instead of just within the city, hence necessarily requiring a city prefix.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this before actually moving the pages. MikeLynch (talk) 13:49, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:57, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

So far I agree, the only question I got left is where the "station" comes from, I imagine that has something to do with WP Trains but in my mind it is like having an article on John Smith Esq. Agathoclea (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
That would be, yes, due to how train station articles are usually named. MikeLynch (talk) 10:04, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
And without "station" it could be confused with the place the station is named after. Bermicourt (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

This (naming of S-Bahn stations like train stations or like subway stations) seems to be inconsistent all over Wikipedia. We have Gare de Denfert-Rochereau but Les Boullereaux – Champigny (Paris RER) for two RER stations. The photograph of the second one has "Gare" in it... —Kusma (t·c) 14:45, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

If "station" is not so set in stone then I would challenge it. After all the station is called "Donnersberger Brücke", so I would have the disambiguator where is needed like disambiguating between Lolly (singer) and the sweet. Agathoclea (talk) 19:37, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
That format seems to work quite well with U-Bahn stations. Agathoclea (talk) 19:39, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Except that its normal in English to talk about "Foo station" whether main line, suburban or underground, e.g. "Gloucester Road station" although I notice that, for some reason, Wikipedia calls it Gloucester Road tube station, lol, which doesn't need "tube" to disambiguate it as there is no main line station there, and it's also is slang! Bermicourt (talk) 20:22, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
It's actually unnecessarily complicated at the moment (WP:TRAINS in general). There is WP:STATIONS, which links to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (stations) (which is marked inactive) which in turn links to convention pages for the UK, US, Poland and AUS/NZ (actively being followed, I suppose, given that the Gloucester Rd station is a GA). MikeLynch (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
A "station" identifier would be necessary because the station (i.e. the train stop, the building, and associated shops/businesses) is relevant in itself due to its presence on an important railway line. An article on the Donnersbergerbrücke should of course focus on the bridge itself, and so a separate article for the station would be justified. MikeLynch (talk) 21:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I certainly agree on WP:PRIMARYMEANING which is why I lean on disambiguating even if the primary topic does not have an article (yet). The point Bermicourt makes is right. Can't speak for the US but in the UK the term station is used in common parlance as part of the name. That is where the doctrine of COMMON NAME has its full application. The point though is that, with maybe a handful of exceptions across Europe, we have no S-Bahn station that has an English common name, which is why we revert to the original (cf Bayern Munich vs München-Pasing) and then there is no "station" in the name, if anything it would be "Bahnhof". Common usage at least with city transport though is to even omit the "Bahnhof" part. As pointed out my MikeLynch WP:STATIONS is historic/inactive. From the looks of things it was never officially followed but still influenced the current naming mess. Agathoclea (talk) 06:19, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
I have just been reading Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Trains/Rail transport in Germany task force/Conventions/Archive 1 and a lot of the conflicts between policy and the station convention has already been raised there. Therefore my proposal would be to change the titles of the S-Bahn stations to station name (town S-Bahn)/(town S+U-Bahn). Try one town and adjust the convention accordingly. If it causes any ripples open the discussion to a wider audience. If it goes through unopposed carry on with the rest of the cities. Agathoclea (talk) 07:03, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
I think that's a fair deal, given that it also potentially resolves conflicts between S-Bahn and U-Bahn having different names. MikeLynch (talk) 07:09, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Obviously there will be some exceptions, but cross that bridge ... Agathoclea (talk) 07:21, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Speaking of exceptions, I'd still prefer that stations catering to long distance trains retain their full name (Munich-Pasing station) for the same reason mentioned in my "quote" above. Stations like Pasing or Hamburg Altona are more important because of their IC and Regio connections and their connection to the S-Bahn should probably only be secondary. MikeLynch (talk) 07:33, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
I agree (P.S. just been looking at the few exceptions to the U-Bahn articles without disambiguation. The first I checked was moved by someone who later was checkuserbanned) Agathoclea (talk) 08:20, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

High school templates for German cities/regions[edit]

On the English Wikipedia high schools are generally notable. There of course are many articles on schools in English-speaking countries but I thought I'd extend this to France. I made several templates to facilitate the creation of French high school articles (especially in the Paris region) - example: Template:Lycées in Seine-Saint-Denis - and linked them up with FRwiki's templates. Now I feel it's time for Germany to get the same.

I'd like to make high school templates for Berlin and certain German regions containing Frankfurt, Hamburg, Munich, and Dusseldorf. I went on Berlin's website but it seems to be a bit hard to tell which ones are "high schools" (say in the American sense). Is everything with "oberstufe" / "gymnasium" / "Integrierte Sekundarschule" always the equivalent of a U.S. senior high school or British sixth-form college? WhisperToMe (talk) 19:43, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

Miscategorisation of The Threepenny Opera[edit]

Would any active members please take a look at Talk:The Threepenny Opera. This musical has been miscategoried as an "opera" for a long time. Even the opera-source, Grove, says that it's a musical. In the list of "Operas, Operettas, Musicals and Ballets", it is described as "play with music". (Grove 1980 v.20, 309). The arguments against calling it an opera are that, as the image in the article states unambiguously, as does the lede, that it is a "play with music", or a musical. The categorisation in place is OR. A search on Youtube for recordings offers a common-sense based definition as well. No one who has actually experienced the work imagines it's an opera. Our article ought not to mislead its readers with a false categorisation, regardless of a Wikiproject's (false) sense of ownership. Please take a look and comment. Regards,  • DP •  {huh?} 16:33, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Computer Simulation Technology (2nd nomination)[edit]

An AfD of relevance to this board. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

The 10,000 Challenge[edit]

Hi, I've proposed an idea based on Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge for a long term goal to include your country and northern Europe/Scandinavia in combined challenge target. At present I don't know whether to make it a smaller target like 1000 for each country individually. If active editors here are interested in seeing mass improvements for their country please comment in the discussion at the bottom of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Intertranswiki. Thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Louis Weßels[edit]

What's the current state of play with WP:ß for German BLPs? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:45, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I lost track. Prominent examples I just checked are at the ss version. Agathoclea (talk) 10:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
Interesting. But there's a different rule in play for Eastern Europeans. Try moving Nebojša Djorđević and other Eastern European people to their English equivalent and watch the sparks fly! --Bermicourt (talk) 15:47, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
There could be three reasons at play. a) prominent people do have a stronger footprint in English literature, therefore common name policy has a bearing and b) substituting ss for ß is also common in the source language.; c) The matter was informally settled before the trend in the real world and here to spell names in their original form became more and more the norm. Agathoclea (talk) 11:13, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Searching for lesser known articles I do find a good number of articles using the ß. Some have been moved back and forth in the past. I think there was a move request Vossstrasse some good years ago which was closed as no consensus. So it does look that the letter is with us to stay. Funny side anekdote: The German artice de:Voßstraße was created in response to the debate here on enWiki. Agathoclea (talk) 15:00, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
I think the general trend is that well known subjects like Giessen, Meissen or Rudolf Hess are so commonly recorded in the English sources with a double "s" that the article follows that line. Topics less well known or even unrecorded in English tend to stick with the native "ß". While that follows the sources, it does introduce inconsistency. The question that hasn't been debated is: if there is a common way of 'translating' foreign letters into English for famous examples, should that logically extend to less famous articles where there isn't the body of English literature to make a sensible judgement? We already do this with whole words; for example we don't need every instance of "Footal" to tell us that a sensible translation is "Foo Valley". --Bermicourt (talk) 18:11, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Inconsistancy is the game. It naturally follows the development of sources. We distinguish between transliterating and translating though. In sources translating stopped a lot earlier than transliterating because the technical ability just was not there even 25 years ago. (They were not even able to use lowercase letters in the German taxoffice, but I am digressing). Translating of names which was a widely accepted practice up to about 150 years ago. People would identify with that name in that language when introducing themselves. Our guidelines speak of making a distinction between nobility and the rest of us, as sources will have a record of the one being translated and not of the other. But the guidelines do only tell half the story. The difference between William I, German Emperor and Wilhelm II, German Emperor shows the shift that had occurred at that point in time. If we where to normalize those two articles by making them both Wilhelm or William would not reflect the sources. Similarly we should use the translated Rhine Valley Railway (if it wasn't a redirect to an obscure official concoction) but not Ennepetalbahn. If we, but not the sources, translate parts of compound words/names it is basically WP:OR. For everything else we have Mastercard^wredirects. Agathoclea (talk) 06:14, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
I guess the practice you're referring to is the naming of the nobility and I agree the sources seem to use English names until about the time of Kaiser Bill (sic!). Of course, the practice made some sense because a) most of the early sources are in Latin anyway so it's a bit of a guess what they were really called and b) the nobility were often not local so they probably didn't have names in the language defined by modern state boundaries anyway. For example, kings of England were probably known by their French names for several generations after Guillaume le Conquérant, but we call them William etc. Nevertheless there is a slight modern trend to call e.g. Holy Roman Emperors by German names, whether out of ignorance or misguided political correctness is hard to discern.
I don't agree that the translation of compound words is WP:OR unless there is overwhelming evidence that English sources retain the original compounded term. But often there is no evidence either way (not enough or no sources) and then we should follow best translation practice. Bermicourt (talk) 11:54, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
Classic example of made up translations found on my watchlist today. Agathoclea (talk) 06:20, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Hahaha! Yes, that's ridiculous and totally against our guidelines because they're all proper names of places and not compounded with common nouns. It's even dangerous to suggest what a place name means in English without checking the German etymology because spellings change over time and it may be a corruption of a rather different word. Well spotted, anyway! Bermicourt (talk) 06:35, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Community reassessment[edit]

The article Joachim Helbig has been nominated for community GA reassessment as per WP:GAR.

The discussion will take place at GAR:Joachim Helbig, with the goal to reach a consensus whether the article satisfies the good article criteria. Any input would be welcome. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:17, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement![edit]

Today's Article For Improvement star.svg

Hello,
Please note that List of German painters, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing!
Delivered by MusikBot talk 00:07, 26 September 2016 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team

Malta Convoys[edit]

Please reassess; expansion and clean up. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 22:10, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Template for Deletion: Knight's Cross recipients in the Bundeswehr[edit]

FYI, Template:Knight's Cross recipients in the Bundeswehr and Bundesgrenzschutz has been nominated for deletion. The related discussion is here: Entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:36, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Ludwig Lemmer[edit]

I've attempted to PROD this article but I see that it states that the subject was awarded Großes Verdienstkreuz. However, I'm unable to find confirmation of this, or to ascertain that it was indeed a special honor. Otherwise, the article is completely unreferenced and reads like a personal essay. The subject does not have a de.wiki article. Could someone more knowledgeable advise? K.e.coffman (talk) 09:33, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Invitation to Women in Food and Drink editathon[edit]

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November 2016

An opportunity for you and your country to contribute to the
Women in Food and Drink online editathon
Faciliated by Women in Red

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--Ipigott (talk) 10:03, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

(To subscribe, Women in Red/Invite list. Unsubscribe, Women in Red/Opt-out list)

Entry at 2016 clown sightings[edit]

Could someone please check 2016 clown sightings#Germany? I wrote it from translation software and am not sure if I got it right. Many thanks. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:18, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christoph Schuck[edit]

The above article is being considered for deletion; if someone is able to provide German language sources, or otherwise comment on the discussion, it would be great. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

TfD: Related recipients of the Knight's Cross[edit]

The discussion is located at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2016 October 25#Template:Related recipients of the Knight.27s Cross. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:54, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

The 10,000 Challenge[edit]

Hi. The Wikipedia:WikiProject Europe/The 10,000 Challenge ‎ has recently started, based on the UK/Ireland Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge and Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The 10,000 Challenge. The idea is not to record every minor edit, but to create a momentum to motivate editors to produce good content improvements and creations and inspire people to work on more countries than they might otherwise work on. If anybody here would like to contribute to a European one or would rather contribute to a sub one specifically for Germany like Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Germany) based on Wikipedia:The 1000 Challenge (Nordic), sign your name under the section for Germany and I'll start it if there is enough support. For this to really work we need diversity and exciting content and editors from a broad range of countries regularly contributing. At some stage we hope to run some contests to benefit European and possibly German content, a destubathon perhaps, aimed at reducing the stub count would be a good place to start, based on the current Wikipedia:WikiProject Africa/The Africa Destubathon. If you would like to see this happening for Germany and European nations, and see potential in this attracting more interest and editors for the country/countries you work on please sign up and being contributing to the challenge! This is a way we can target every country of Europe, and steadily vastly improve the encyclopedia. We need numbers to make this work so consider signing up as a participant!♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:14, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Could I also encourage editors to consider joining the "Germany" part of the challenge here. If you're already creating and improving German articles, you just need to start recording your achievements. Gruß. Bermicourt (talk) 20:19, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Input sought for a GAR[edit]

Hi, posting re Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Joachim_Helbig/1.

The discussion has been extensive, but with few !votes. The dialog has most recently centered on what sources should or should not be acceptable, and evaluation of sources published by German publishers. It can be found in section "1.6 Wrapping Up", or a via a direct link to Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Joachim_Helbig/1#Wrapping_up.

Interested editors are invited to share an opinion, or to cast an !vote. Thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Can someone translate a few paras to start Cannabis in Germany?[edit]

I see that there's a page de:Rechtliche Aspekte von Hanf which has a large section on Germany; I've used the equivalent page to start Cannabis in Spain, but I don't speak German. Can anyone who is proficient here knock out the 30-minute job of translating the Germany-specific passages onto a new start Cannabis in Germany? Goonsquad LCpl Mulvaney (talk) 23:10, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

New article Cannabis in Germany needs work[edit]

This new article was formed by splitting up some larger articles, and it could use a tune-up. Inviting anyone here to drop by to improve the article: Cannabis in Germany.

Goonsquad LCpl Mulvaney (talk) 03:05, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Human trafficking in Germany[edit]

First sentence:

"Germany is the main European source ..."

Quoted authority source (DOD report 2010) states:

"Germany is a source ..."

Furthermore, the article says:

"The Government of Germany only complies with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking"

While the source says:

"The Government of Germany fully complies with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking"

I am not comfortable editing articles via IP, can someone else please have a look at?


— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2450:4:0:9193:8452:C594:E848 (talk) 10:09, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg[edit]

There's some dispute about the section "Plagiarism scandal and resignation" in the Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg article. Involvement from additional editors would be appreciated. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:43, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Margaretha Reichardt article[edit]

I would like the article on Margaretha Reichardt, an East German textile designer and former Bauhaus student who ran her own independent weaving business in Erfurt, included in this portal under East German people - Artists, playwrights, poets, writers. Is some sort of approval / review required before it can be added? Felixkrater (talk) 08:04, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Not quite sure where you mean. But its a wiki - so try and if its in the wrong place somebody will fix it. Agathoclea (talk) 09:23, 29 November 2016 (UTC)