This page is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Per WP:AN/RFC: "Many discussions result in a reasonably clear consensus, so if the consensus is clear, any editor—even one involved in the discussion—may close the discussion." There is a clear consensus not to rename the article "Southern Ireland". Scolaire (talk) 13:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
AlwynJPie (talk) 10:13, 23 May 2015 (UTC)When Ireland was partitioned the names given to the two parts ot the island were Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland. Southern Ireland was the origional name of the territory that this article is about. The current Government of the Ireland (the Republic of Ireland) formally laid claim to the whole island of Ireland and this is why they used the term Ireland instead of Southern Ireland. Even the former Irish Free State origionally included Northern Ireland. Governments can call themselves what they like but to me Ireland means the whole Ireland and Southern Ireland is the part of Ireland controlled by the current Government of Ireland. There are many All Ireland institutions and agreements but this article is only about the 26 counties. AlwynJPie (talk) 10:13, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Since Donegall is one of those 26 counties, Southern Ireland isn't a better name. Valenciano (talk) 10:44, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Are there any circumstances under which you would stop this business short of everybody else doing what you want? Have you ever been wrong? Dmcq (talk) 11:12, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
You say it yourself, governments can call themselves what THEY like. Wikipedia editors do not have those powers. Let's stick with the official name. Arnoutf (talk) 11:15, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Valenciano and Dmcq. This Wikipedia article is about the 26 counties. Southern Ireland is the best name to use for the article because it is the origional name for the 26 counties and, unlike the Republic of Ireland (which formally laid claim to the whole island) or the Irish Free State it does not contain any reference to the states political situation. Yes, it’s peculiar that the most northerly point of the island of Ireland happens to be in Southern Ireland, but this is one of those geographical anomalies.
Arnoutf. What would Wikipedia do if Northern Ireland decided to change its official name to Ireland? AlwynJPie (talk) 01:19, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Technicially Southern Ireland stopped existing when the Free State came into being. Mabuska(talk) 12:52, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Mabuska. On the day the Irish Free State was established, it comprised the ENTIRE island of Ireland and, as I pointed out before, the Republic of Ireland formally laid claim to the WHOLE island. Whereas Southern Ireland has only ever been the 26 counties. Southern Ireland still exists, it was never abolished. It is currently the territory of the Government of Ireland. This long running naming dispute would be solved once and for all if the article was called by the ORIGINAL name given to the state when it was created, i.e. Southern Ireland. AlwynJPie (talk) 22:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Alwyn, do you see the big box at the top of this page? The one that says "Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration by order of the Arbitration Committee" ? You do. Good. If you want to continue this discussion, go there, but Scolaire has a point, you're unlikely to find consensus for that. In the meantime, someone uninvolved needs to close this discussion. Valenciano (talk) 23:05, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
Southern Ireland is not the official name which is Ireland or official description which is Republic of Ireland nor the most common name for the state which is Ireland. There is no way the title of the article nor the name used for the state will change in those circumstances unless there is overriding Wikipedia policy or guideline. Which Wikipedia policy or guideline supports your choice of name? Do you think you have a chance of changing the name in Wikipedia? If not then stop, as WP:TALK says "Wikipedia is not a social networking site, and all discussion should ultimately be directed solely toward the improvement of the encyclopedia". Dmcq (talk) 07:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Do you think you have a chance of changing the name in Wikipedia? It is like banning Virginia because you are confusing it with West Virginia. -- Lugnad (talk) 10:34, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
The article Republic of Ireland is about the part of Ireland which contains the 26 counties. This part of Ireland was originally called Southern Ireland. Original names carry a lot of weight in respect of what a Wikipedia article should be called. Many places have been renamed by controlling governments for all sorts of reasons but the original name will always be the original name. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). This is the prime reason that I would prefer the article to be known as Southern Ireland. AlwynJPie (talk) 22:48, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Original names carry a lot of weight, really? More than the common name/disambiguator in general use? You claim to be history student and you've no doubt read the articles in question, so presumably you're aware you're trying to replace the article's title (the description of the state) with the name of a predecessor state. Why would you want to deliberately introduce inaccuracy and confusion?
Wait - are you just trolling, badly? Tell you what - if original names are so important, come back when you've managed to get United Kingdom changed to "Britannia", the original name for the whole of that place... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be so Romano-centric. They were known to the Greek and Phoenecian geographers as the "Tin Islands" long before the Romans even had an empire. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:52, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be so Classical-centric. They were known by whatever they were known as to the inhabitants before the Greeks and Romans. Though I wouldn't kick the tin down the road, it only means sooner or later you or someone else comes across it again. Mabuska(talk) 11:39, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be so Celto-centric. Though I don't think, from a technical perspective, WP is capable of having an article called "Cold wet foggy windy snowy sunny hail place, sometimes all on the same day, why did we ever leave Iberia anyway?" that's in 50 different languages. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:26, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Who mentioned Celts? They aren't the natives. Or rather that culture isn't as they aren't a race. Mabuska(talk) 22:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Bastun and Dmcq. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was the name given when it was formed in 1801. Britannia was a Roman province in southern Great Britain. AlwynJPie (talk) 01:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Move "Ireland" to "Ireland (island)" or similar (June 2015)
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: not moved. DrKiernan (talk) 07:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
– I know this has been proposed time and time again. But I have to at least try.
The current name is a blatant violation of COMMONNAME.
If a user enters Ireland into the search box, or links to it from an article, to heavily paraphrase WP:COMMONNAME, it should be more likely than not that they are looking for the island. There is no evidence of such. I have seen users in past contribution make suggestions to this effect, but completely devoid of any supporting evidence.
Arguments based on anything but policy are not valid - Most of the arguments for preserving the status quo are based on history, philosophy, politics or a combination of the three. These are not considerations which are used when determining article names, and they certainly do not override COMMONNAME.
Countless articles are linked incorrectly - provesIreland is too ambiguous Within the first page alone of "What Links Here" for Ireland there are examples of incorrect linking. Apple Inc. in the same section switches from linking to RoI to Ireland (when it very clearly should be the former). The problem of incorrect linking rampant is throughout the English Wikipedia.
Nothing has to be at Ireland - It is not a foregone conclusion that one of the articles must occupy Ireland. Indeed, FR and NL do not do this, with Ireland being a disambiguation page.
Again, the name is too ambiguous - The fact is, both the island and the sovereign entity are commonly referred to as Ireland. COMMONNAME does not care about historical provenance or what it "oughtright" be. The primary consideration is whether the average user, when looking for "Ireland" is far more likely to be looking for one over the other. No one has ever demonstrated this to be the case, at least not in any past discussion I've read.
If anything, someone is more likely to be looking for the sovereign entity than the island.(Not proposing it move to Ireland, never was. Better off deleting this) Even with non-sovereign entities such as Catalonia, or the Basque region, the primary title is given to the entity that is legally incorporated (those of Spain) not the greater areas which include parts of France. Indeed, the vast majority of Wikipedias (where it can be argued editors are far more likely to be, on average, more detached from the topic) the ambiguity has been resolved in this way: RoI either occupies "Ireland" (its equivalent in the language) or redirects directly to "Republic of Ireland". Wikipedias which either place RoI at Ireland, or redirect in this fashion include: DE, PT, CA, ES, IT, ZH, sv, ru, ceb (or so it seems; it's linked in this manner anyway). Of the top ten Wikipedia's by article count, the only other one which resolves the ambiguity the same way as the English Wikipedia is the WAR.
I am not proposing that we move RoI to Ireland. I am proposing to use the Dutch/French model of Ireland being a disambiguation page. If it were the case that people using the term Ireland were far more likely to be looking for the island, and vice versa, that when they refer to RoI, they are far more likely than not, to use the term Republic of Ireland, the current situation where time and time articles are mislinked to Ireland would not arise.
Embassies for almost every country in Dublin, except the UK (maybe every, I don't have time to check them all) refer to themselves as the embassy "to Ireland". Even the British Embassy, referred to as British Embassy Dublin makes several uses of the word Ireland where it is clear such usage does not encompass Northern Ireland. (see here).
Wikipedia is not supposed to be prescriptive. Nor is Wikipedia supposed to espouse a point of view. Yet, by blatantly ignoring the reality that Ireland in common usage is an ambiguous term, it is doing just that. Estoy Aquí (talk) 15:45, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
What checks have you done on your belief that people are more likely to want the state rather than the island? When people are going on holiday to Ireland or say they are Irish they don't commonly distinguish between the two parts. There is also the problem that it is usual to have the wider entity have a name if there is no good reason otherwise - then people can work down when it is the wrong one. Are you proposing that Ireland just be a disambiguation page? even more people wouldn't find the right one first with that. It sounds like you are wanting to change the name so editors don't get it wrong so often rather than so it helps readers. Dmcq (talk) 16:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
It helps readers in the sense that it doesn't make assumptions about what they are looking for. The way editors mislink is simply a manifestation of the fact that in common usage it very often refers to what is currently at Republic of Ireland. My point about the more common usage being the reverse was anecdotal (just as your "people are going on holiday" point is). It's not part of the main argument because I don't propose that RoI be moved to Ireland anyway. If a user does not know which page they want, the point of a disambig is to allow them to know at first glance the term they've searched for can commonly refer to different things. The vast majority of other articles with ambiguous titles only have one in the main title when it is demonstrably far more common than the others. (e.g. how Spielberg redirects to Steven Spielberg) - Estoy Aquí (talk) 17:14, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm confused. The template says you're proposing multiple moves, but only one move is listed? In any case - after much discussion, a widely-advertised poll took place in 2009 to determine the titles of the articles about Ireland. The result, with 239 participating, was the island article being located at Ireland and the country article being at Republic of Ireland. While that outcome was binding for only 2 years (i.e. until 2011), it has since been reaffirmed through consensus discussion, most recently between September and November 2012. I see no reason to reopen this particular can of worms at this time. You've offered no evidence to support your own assertions. If there are errors in linking, we should simply fix the links. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:37, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Which part? The reference to Ireland being more common to refer to the State is not part of the main argument, because I'm not proposing it move into Ireland. It was just an aside, which I've now struck out for clarity. Unless you are honestly suggesting that Ireland commonly (not mostly, just commonly) referring to the sovereign entity is so contentious that it needs to be proven. In any case that's difficult, because how do you search (for example) on Google and measure which results are for which entity? The membership of Republic of Ireland in all international organisations is as Ireland: the UN, the IMF, World Bank, EU. It is also the name used by Britannica. I'm not suggesting that (as a matter of undisputed fact) one usage is more common that the other, just that it is ambiguous. I can't stress enough I don't think that either article belongs in Ireland because neither can be demonstrated to be undisputed COMMONTHING (the inreverse to WP:COMMONNAME) to which the name refers. The reason I am using examples of Ireland referring to the RoI exclusively is because the only way to prove the ambiguity is by counterexamples -- examples that show that Ireland very commonly (not necessarily most of the time) refers to the RoI which in the case of almost every other ambiguous title on Wikipedia, is sufficient to have the main title as a disambiguation.
With regards to the template, I couldn't find any way to force the template to list A to B where A is not the current location of the discussion, except by using the multiple move option - Estoy Aquí (talk) 17:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
You said there was a blatant violation of WP:COMMONNAME. I can't see what point in the policy is being violated. Currently we have disambiguation for the state which comes under WP:NATURAL "Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Do not, however, use obscure or made-up names." Dmcq (talk) 23:28, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
That gives undue preference to one of the subjects. The island also has a natural disambiguation (Island of Ireland - though it doesn't sound like article title material), but it doesn't have more of a claim to Ireland (based on Wikipedia policy; not talking about politics etc.) than RoI. Users should find what they are most likely to be looking for when they type Ireland. Only if they are more likely to be looking for the island (and this can be demonstrated) should it be at Ireland. I can't disprove this idea because the default position is to assume they are not particularly more likely to be looking for one over the other. The only way you know where to find the Republic of Ireland on EN Wikipedia is by already knowing how it is named on Wikipedia. Very few people would type Ireland and expect to find information on an island, if they would, that is what should have to be proven (which I doubt it can be).
My main point of using the other Wiki's where RoI is at Ireland or (as I am actually proposing) is a disambig like FR and NL, was to show that no other Wiki in the top 10 (except WAR) arrived at the same resolution as EN, where it is practically certain (obviously I can't prove this, but it stands to reason) that the average editor was more detached from the sensitivities of the the name. - Estoy Aquí (talk) 02:17, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
I can't see anything in the WP:TITLE policy about anything similar to undue preference or some injunction about avoiding it so there is no blatant violation on that basis that I can see. 'Blatant violation' and pointing at a policy is something that needs to be reasonably obvious in the policies or guidelines. "Very few people would type Ireland and expect to find information on an island" needs much better backup than a strong assertion. Finding the state is extremely easy, just type 'Ireland', it is given in the hatnote for the article.
I looked up the French Wikipedia like you said and the state is under fr:Irlande (pays) and the island under fr:Irlande (île) and the disambiguation page is at fr:Irlande. Fine for them but I don't see why you think that speeds up finding the island or the state. I wouldn't all that much mind a change to something like the French Wikipedia but there needs to be a reasonably good argument for it as it involves disruption and there's been loads of arguments over this. Dmcq (talk) 09:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
To comment, I was one of the ArbCom appointed monitors of a vote to decide whether the island or the country would be at Ireland, and that result was expected to be binding. --MASEM (t) 02:20, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment there's no violation of WP:COMMONNAME, the island is residing at it's common name, "Ireland", and your move request to move that article to "Ireland (island)" still resides at the common name of "Ireland" because parenthetical disambiguation does not affect COMMONNAME considerations. Any discussion on the Republic of Ireland's article name have no bearing on the common name of the island. Indeed any discussion on any other article that exists have nothing to do with COMMONNAME discussions at all, they only point to WP:PRIMARYTOPIC discussions, which is a completely different beast, and not COMMONNAME discussions. Further, you haven't even asked to move the page located at Republic of Ireland at all, so discussions of COMMONNAME of that article isn't even part of the nominated pages in this move request. -- 126.96.36.199 (talk) 05:20, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment as you are proposing to replace "Ireland" with "Ireland (disambiguation)" ; is this because there is no PRIMARYTOPIC ? (Note this has nothing to do with COMMONNAME considerations of the article located at "Ireland") Then this is an improperly formatted request, because there is no indication in the nomination template or the nominated pages listing that the dab page is being moved. -- 188.8.131.52 (talk) 05:20, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose. The island has had the name for over a millenia compared to the 60 odd year history of the republic of Ireland. Why give undue prominence to a lesser entity and by far younger entity? Mabuska(talk) 17:58, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Also when you state that the island has a "natural disambiguation", so does the state. According to their own acts, the state is officially described as the "Republic of Ireland". Mabuska(talk) 18:05, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Your suggestion of moving RoI to Ireland is neither here-nor-there seeing as the proposal above states that it is not proposing this, so why bring it up when it belongs to in a different discussion. Mabuska(talk) 23:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
Support as proposed per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. You can argue if the Republic has primary topic; it's indisputable that a hunk of land does not. RedSlash 05:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
If Ireland is a hunk of land, then what is the Republic? A slice of a hunk of land? And Northern Ireland, a smaller slice of a hunk of land? Ireland is an island that contains two polities. It is also a country, albeit partitioned. That country had a real existence, whether as "Gaelic Ireland", "Lordship of Ireland", "Kingdom of Ireland" or "constituent country of the United Kingdom" for all but ninety of the last 1,000 years. Scolaire (talk) 13:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose The island has been known as Ireland for centuries. There is no such place as "Ireland (island)" so it is not a common name. Stop wasting time. All of these related Irish naming topics have been resolved even if not to everyone's satisfaction. ww2censor (talk) 09:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose per all the above. "Ireland" is the common name of the island, and is used for the island as often or more often than for the state. Scolaire (talk) 13:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose in the ideal world, both the country and the island articles would be at Ireland and a script would ask people whether they want the island or the country when they search or add links. We don't have that technical possibility here, so we had to decide which of the two would be at Ireland. As the island has a much longer history, that meets WP:PRIMARYTOPIC criteria. Valenciano (talk) 15:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose per the same rationale we've had on this in the past 10 years. Namely that "Ireland" (in reference to the island) is the primary meaning. All other (related) uses derive from this primary meaning. Guliolopez (talk) 19:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose Ireland is the name of the island. The republic does not administer the whole island; it only administers the 26 counties of Southern Ireland. AlwynJPie (talk) 03:45, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear where the overall opinion on the matter lies. Call to close? Mabuska(talk) 23:13, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.