Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the WikiProject Islam page.
|Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11|
|WikiProject Islam||(Rated Project-class)|
|To-do list for Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam:|
|WikiProject Islam was featured in a WikiProject Report in the Signpost on 23 February 2009. If you wish to get involved with the Signpost, please visit the Newsroom.|
Apparently it's written somewhere that Muhammad was poisoned by a Jewish woman, this was recently (not the first time) mentioned at Talk:Muhammad.
I found Zeynab bint Al-Harith which states in WP:s voice that yeah, that happened. I get the impression that the article takes the word of ancient scholars (perhaps Ibn Sa'd) as fact, there's no "who says this" in the article at all.
I found the Somalia and Yemen sections of this article so poorly written I couldn't understand them enough to fix them. Could someone who understands this clean it up? Rmhermen (talk) 22:54, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Africa and Asia
Image on Template: Islam
There is some dispute between users regarding the official image to be used on the Template:Islam. One user Trinanjon inserted the Shahada and the other AlHazen inserted the Star and Crescent. Both images have issues with them, as they are not necessarily inclusive.
The original was the Allah symbol (until changed August 5) which I've restored. If anyone wants it changed they should make their case here first.
My own opinion is that the Star and Crescent is not representative and certainly not inclusive. Most Islamist groups and plenty of Islamic organizations and countries do not use it, and it's usage outside of the Ottomans is almost entirely 20th century and onward. The Ottomans themselves adopted it from the Byzantines after conquering their realm and succeeding them, along with the title of Ceasar (14th century), but the symbol was adopted in the late 18th century. While there are paintings of its use by some Muslims centuries before the Fall of Constantinople, the same is true for the "Star of David" (Seal of Solomon) which was used more than the Star and Crescent in the medieval period on coinage, architecture and official flags.
"Allah" may be used by non-Muslims because it's a neutral term but it is used by all Muslims alike. That is not the case with the Star and Crescent. While the Shahada is different for Sunnis, Twelver Shia, Ismaili Shia and other sects. –DA1 (talk) 06:30, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- I disagree. No symbol is fully agreed upon - however, the crescent and star is the most internationally recognized and used symbol for Islam.
- The shahada does not encompass all Muslims - and Allah encompasses 'other than Muslims, thus is not a unique association.
- The crescent and star (though disagreed upon) - is the most common and most binding usage for 'Muslim' identity than either Allah or the shahada. It's both more global and encompassing - there is no parallel to it. It's been used since the 13th century, and is today used in the center and home of the Islamic religion - Mecca. AlHazen (talk) 16:32, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
- @AlHazen: By "not fully agreed upon", are you talking about the general Muslim community or Wikiproject Islam? Because as far as the latter is concerned, the Allah symbol was being used until it was changed. So anyone wishing to change it, needs to make their case and get consensus first.
- You also need to provide proof that that the Ottoman/Byzantine Star and Crescent is the most "international" symbol. How many Jihadist groups use it? How many Islamic organizations use it? Provide proof first.
- I already stated that neither the crescent nor the Shahada encompasses all Muslims, so you're agreeing with me there. But your only objection is that Allah is used by non-Muslims as well? That is not sufficient to claim that it's not inclusive of all Muslims, which it is. There are many religions that believe in a God, that doesn't make God separate from Islam, and the same is for prayer, monotheism, belief in Abraham, Adam, angels, etc. Just because something is used by non-Muslims doesn't take away from the same thing being used by Muslims. Similarly, I've already pointed out the Star and Crescent has a history outside of Muslim as well. Your argument for why the former is preferred and not the latter is not even consistent. DA1 (talk) 06:01, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
- Furthermore, what a government or real estate entity uses in Mecca on a building it built only a few years ago isn't representative of Islam or Muslims as whole. Unless you are trying to conflate Saudi Arabia or Wahhabism with Islam as a whole, in which case you are wrong. The Mecca ornament also includes no star, simply an upward-pointing crescent. You're also wrong that it's been used since the 13th century as a symbol for Islam. It was used by certain political entities, not all or most Muslim entities. The six point star (hexagram) was also used. The five point star by itself (pentagram) is also used. So was the octagram (Rub el Hizb). None of these four symbols are universal symbols of Islam, but literally all Muslims accept "Allah". There is no rule that the image must be exclusive to Muslims alone, hence, your entire argument for changing it is flawed, not to mention contradicts your own choice of image. DA1 (talk) 06:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC)