Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel

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WikiProject Israel (Rated Project-class)
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Name change for an article about HaNoar HaOved[edit]

Talk:HaNoar_HaOved_VeHaLomed#Name_change--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:31, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Classification of Jews on Template:Ethnic slurs[edit]

You are invited to participate in a dispute resolution discussion at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Template_talk:Ethnic_slurs. This debate concerns how ethnic slurs relating to Jews should be classified on {{Ethnic slurs}}.

Prior discussion on this topic can be found at (warning: both very long) Template talk:Ethnic slurs and my user talk page. Deryck C. 23:27, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

The relevant discussion has moved to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Review_of_RfC_on_the_classification_of_Jews_on_Template_talk:Ethnic_slurs. Deryck C. 14:32, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Hebrew-speaking editor to improve Haim Beinart[edit]

Hello. If there is a Hebrew-speaking editor here, could you please read and cite this article to improve Haim Beinart? Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

I'll check it, but it may take me a couple of weeks. WarKosign 22:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Maps of Israel[edit]

Hi. I was wondering if any of you could help me find some free (or compatible licensed) maps of Israel that show Israel as the Israeli government views it. Specifically, I want to see the Golan Heights represented the same as any other region in Israel, and the same with Jerusalem. I want serious-looking political maps, not tourist maps. Sole Flounder (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Just edit the current svg with Inkscape.--Monochrome_Monitor 21:03, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Monochrome Monitor I"ve actually tried it and it is not that simple. Too lazy to explain. Any way there's this one: Israel Map by The Legal Status of The Territories-6.svg. There is also this map that I"ve created long ago. If you want to use it, just put my name as tha author.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 21:13, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I use that software without a problem. :P --Monochrome_Monitor
Cool, thanks! If anyone has one similar to the first one but in English it would be much appreciated. Sole Flounder (talk) 22:21, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I assume you've been through Category:Maps of Israel? There's also c:Category:Maps of Israel on Commons. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:48, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Israeli and Jewish categories[edit]

It's occurred to me that we have categories for people of X-Jewish descent, Y-Jewish descent etc for just about every country on Earth, but no categories for people of Israeli-Jewish descent. Now, I understand why this probably is—Israel is a majority-Jewish country, therefore people in the "of Israeli descent" categories would be presumed to be of Israeli-Jewish descent unless stated otherwise. However, because it is possible to be of non-Jewish Israeli descent, the "of Israeli descent" categories are not put into the "of Jewish descent" parent categories—and the result can be seen at Category:British people of Jewish descent, for example. The anomaly is that subcategories for a whole raft of Jewish origins are listed, but not the subcategory for Brits of Israeli descent (Category:British people of Israeli descent).

Now, what might the best fix for this anomaly be? In my opinion it would be unwise to simply bung the straight "of Israeli descent" categories into the respective "of Jewish descent" categories, because as mentioned above it is possible to be of non-Jewish Israeli descent. Should we go through and make "of Israeli-Jewish descent" categories, to slot into the "of Israeli descent" and "of Jewish descent" categories like Category:British people of Austrian-Jewish descent does into Category:British people of Austrian descent and Category:British people of Jewish descent? Or has there been some prior decision against this kind of thing that I am not aware of?

Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  18:33, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I think we should have two categories: People of Israeli descent, and People of Jewish descent. They are independent of each other. Sir Joseph (talk) 18:35, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree with the general statement that "we should have two categories: People of Israeli descent, and People of Jewish descent". And we do. Making a "Israeli people of Jewish descent" and another "Israeli-Jewish people" will be a lot of work, including a lot of cases in which it will be necessary to decide in which of the two category to place a person. Debresser (talk) 19:34, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
We have some Israeli–Arabs we can't negelect (though Palestinianists might get angry)--Bolter21 (talk to me) 20:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Right, which is why having two independent categories is the way to go. You can be Jewish and not Israeli and the same is true with the opposite, you can be Israeli and not Jewish. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:25, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
I feel that under people of Israeli descent there should be several sub categories. Jews, Arabs, Druz and Christians for sure should each have their own. The main category can be used still for those who dont fit into one of those, unless there is enough to justify its own. - GalatzTalk 20:27, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
No. It would just be a mess. You'd then have a category of Jewish Descent for those outside of Israel, and then a subcategory of Israel, being Jewish descent? Just have two independent cats. An American is listed as American Descent and if he's Jewish, he'd get the Jewish descent. The same should be with Israel. If someone is Jewish/Muslim/Druze, they'd get their religion cat, and they'd also get their geography cat. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:30, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── There seems to be some confusion above regarding what I'm getting at—I'm referring to categories for non-Israelis of Israeli descent, not categories for Israelis themselves. Isn't it strange that at Category:British people of Jewish descent, Category:German people of Jewish descent, Category:Canadian people of Jewish descent, etc etc you have all different kinds of Jewish descent listed—French-Jewish, Hungarian-Jewish, Russian-Jewish etc etc etc—but no equivalent nested subcategories for people of Israeli-Jewish descent? It's true you can just put them in both the Israeli descent and Jewish descent categories, but then by the same logic why bother having the categories for French-Jewish, Hungarian-Jewish, Russian-Jewish etc etc? —  Cliftonian (talk)  20:49, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

I misunderstood you as well.
Just to point out the obvious: Jewish descent is a matter of ethnic descent, while Israeli descent is a matter of nationality.
I think the main reason we don't have such a category, is because the state of Israel is so young that there aren't many people of Israeli descent who aren't Israeli themselves. Debresser (talk) 22:59, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
It might be a new country in comparison but there are plenty. Dean Kremer comes to my mind, and I notice he is tagged as neither. He is an American Jew of Israeli descent. - GalatzTalk 13:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Relatively, compared to other countries. Debresser (talk) 22:33, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Railway template[edit]

A user has completely reworked {{Navbox Israeli railways}}, to remove most of the articles it covered. I believe this is wrong, but don't really want to start an edit war. Basically there are only a few railway lines in Israel, and even fewer that have their own articles, so there is little point in having a navbox for them unless you include the stations (through which there is no easy way to navigate outside of categories, which readers don't use as much). Additional opinions are appreciated. —Ynhockey (Talk) 10:03, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I've reverted the changes. Number 57 10:56, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

1948 war articles[edit]

Good day.

So the situation is this: There are three articles about the same war:

  1. 1948 Palestine war
  2. 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine
  3. 1948 Arab–Israeli War

I was reading them and I realised something is really broken here.

First of all, the first article seems like it should be removed. It has many unsourced areas and by reading it, it seems hilariously biased. For example, the background section begins with Ben Gurion's plans to "build up Jewish defence". From all I"ve read and learned, the roots of the war can be traced in World War I, the 1930s Arab Revolt, the Jewish insurgecny in the 40s, the Jewish migration in generall.... The whole place is poorly sourced, using a two doccumentary movies as source, when the latter links to a deleted youtube video. Then the section continues, to describe the partition plan, saying a generally POV claim that "The Jews were the minority but recieved the majority" while very poorly explaining that the majority of the Jewish State was an undeveloped and barely populated desert. I saw that while half of the section is poorly sourced, most of the sources are the Palestinian ones, i.e. Illan Peppe, Benny Morris and Mohammed El-Nawawy, with one quote from the Jewish Virtual Library and one by Dore Gold. But I wouldn't complain that this section is really biased while not AGF, becuase it is generally poorly sourced and containes very little information. In brief: the section on the first stage of the war is tiny, with half of it focusing on Plan Dalet, with very little sources (too many [citation needed] templates), the second stage is also very very short, but starts with US and Soviet support of the Jews (as if the first thing you need to know about the Arab invasion is that the Jews were supported by the US and USSR) and the rest of the article follows the same path.

I say, we should delete the first article, which is a poorly sourced, quite biased unrepresentitve summery of the other two articles, and merge the other two into a single article about all of the war. If you go and say "hey!, the article will be very long you deepshit", I respect that, but if you look at World War II, whose size is 230,000 bytes, merging the two articles about the two stages, will make it 270,000 bytes, if we merge all of the information, but in the merge, we will have to remove a lot of duplicant information, so I guess the final article won't be larger that the WWII article. In this opertunity, we can extract information from the article and create or expand articles about the different fronts and battles and so we could make the article even shorter, while retaining all of the information. Either way, having a large article, will help the readers to better understand the war.

If that didn't convince you, here is another thing that made me think we should merge the two: The views the articles get (in the last 30 days):

  1. 1948 Palestine war - 6,943
  2. 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine - 4,462
  3. 1948 Arab–Israeli War - 35,636 [1]

As you can see, the article about the second stage dominates in views. My speculation is that people simply search for "1948 Arab-Israeli war" more often than "Civil War" or "Palestine war". The war is known by most [English] sources as "Arab-Israeli War". Personally, I never heard anyone calling the first period a "civil war" and I don't really know if there is a source to support that (although I believe there is) and "Palestine War" is also a very unpopular name. Another problem that you see from this, is not only that only one stage of the war gets the big majority of the views, also the summery, gets more views than the first stage of the war, which is a shame, because the first stage of the war is a stage not less important than the second and the article of it is quite a good one.

Support? Objection? Opinion?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 16:49, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I'd delete the first one on the basis that it's needless duplication of the other two topics. However, I think the other two should be kept as separate as the internal civil war was a different thing to the post-Mandate war. Certainly in the books I've read they are treated as separate conflicts. However, I think some of the content of the civil war article should be moved over (i.e. anything after 14 May). Number 57 17:45, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I'd support that.Keith-264 (talk) 18:13, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
I'd also support it, but where should we re-direct it to?--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:20, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Right now, Israeli War of Independence redirects to 1948 Palestine war, which in turn says "not to be confused with 1948 Arab–Israeli War". So there are plenty of messy things needing untangling here. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
It would probably be a good idea to turn it into a DAB page. Number 57 19:16, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
The Israel War of Independence should be redirected to the 1948 Arab Israeli War. The other remaining article doesn't really fit in with that. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸(talk) 14:52, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
Didn't I? I put a notice on all the other WikiProjects of the countries involved. What a shame, even when I try not to canvass, I canvass.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:05, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
My apologies, Bolter21. I see that you did notify the WikiProjects of all the warring states as well as WikiProject Arab World and MILHIST. The two I notified are the only ones on my watchlist, so I hadn't seen your notifications. Again, I'm sorry for the snark. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 18:00, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

FWIW, that article structure was a result of discussion we had a few years ago either on one of the article talk pages, or perhaps on the Nakba page (too lazy to dig it up). If I remember correctly, the "Palestine war" article is supposed to correspond with the timeframe of the War of Independence (also one possible interpretation of Nakba) and the other two correspond with how historians sometimes split up the war to a civil war and a war between countries. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:59, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Help?[edit]

Hi. Can someone help with Hebrew sources? The draft submission of Draft:Amos Gilad - an Israeli runner - is being considered. But running into problems.

The runner's Hebrew page on WP has many sources. But they don't lend themselves to Google translation. https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A1_%D7%92%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%93_(%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%9C%D7%98)

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:E016:A700:4484:D7B0:8756:2C26 (talk) 17:00, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I left a comment on the page. Per WP:NOLYMPICS, an athlete—such as Gilad—who competed at the modern Olympic games is presumed notable. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:00, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Dafna Meir[edit]

Hey, something popped up in the news feed today. I was randomly googling Wikipedia and this article came up about the deletion of a page about Dafna Meir on the Hebrew Wikipedia. ([2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9])

It looks like she's received some coverage for her death, but what interested me and got me researching a little was that her article's deletion appears to have garnered a bit of coverage as well. ([10])

I was just wondering if she wouldn't merit a page on here. I don't know what the notability standards are for elsewhere, but her death seems like it would probably pass NCRIME. The above sourcing was just from the first two pages of a general Google search and I got the impression that there's more out there, likely in another language. Anyone interested in writing a page on this or helping me to write a page? I'm not sure how to put the criticism of Wikipedia on the page, but it looks like it'd make for an interesting subsection. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 14:39, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

We had the same thing here, with the Murder of Hallel Yaffa Ariel, but here people wanted for some odd reason to retian the memorial page. Dafna Meir indeed has much much more coverege than Hallel Yafa Ariel, but I don't really know what would be written in that article. Her death wasn't a complicated significant terrorist attack like the one in Tel Aviv on June, it was just one with horrible consequences. The person it self is not significant, she wasn't a figure that deserves an article and apart from that, all of the information we could get about her is the memorials made for her. Her death stands alone and does not have much significance in other topics. She was just a loved person which got a little more attention that the other slained people in the last wave of terror. I"ve read the Hebrew article but I was not involved in the vote and I have to tell you, it has no encyclopedic value, only a emotio-nationalist one. This is something that happens a lot in the Hebrew Wikipedia. Many persons get an article because they are mentioned in some place's local history, with quite vague sources and no mention in mainstream media or scholary and then there are endless debates about wether the article should remain. I still think the article about Hallel Yafa Ariel is no more than an equivelent to a news report and a memorial site and seeing what a team of Israeli editors managed to create for Dafna Meir, I know I will oppose the creation of an article about her.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 17:15, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
I am not so sure she is notable for her own article, however there is a history of including these one off events. I wouldn't say she is any less notable than Shelly Dadon, Almog Shiloni or Eitam and Na'ama Henkin. If they have articles I am not sure she doesn't meet the criteria based on WP:OSE. Based on all this, I personally wouldn't create the article, but I believe we have a standard of her being notable and clearly based on this recent news coverage, it certainly can't be argued to be WP:RECENTISM, therefore if you decided to create, I would vote to keep if it was nominated. - GalatzTalk 17:26, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't see the notebility in creating articles for Shelly Dadon and Almog Shiloni. Great tragedies,I was even near of them when it happened, but they are not notable. Eitam and Na'ama Henkin on the other hand are very notable, their death marks the begning of a seemingly year old phase of violance, leading to the death of clost to 40 Israelis and clost to 220 Palestinians.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:43, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
It was created already and Shiloni survived an AfD, and Dadon's talk page twice talks about the notability/deletion, but neither went to an AfD. You can see my views on both there, and although I do believe its notable, its just barely. Getting back to the topic at hand, I feel if those two are, than Dafna Meir is. As a comment, I do not believe Dafna Meir is notable, however Murder of Dafna Meir is. - GalatzTalk 18:51, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
I disagree but I am no dictator.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:55, 21 September 2016 (UTC)