Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/September 2010

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Katsushika Hokusai, Goten-yama hill, Shinagawa on the Tōkaidō, ca. 1832.jpg
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"famous alumni", etc


This kind of thing is endemic in en:WP (let alone ja:WP).

That it's endemic doesn't mean it shouldn't or can't be fixed. (Indeed, I fixed it for this university.) Here's what I think needs to be done for any list of teaching staff or alumni:

  1. Link all the names
  2. Delete any, however eminent, that is redlinked
  3. Source each person's relationship to the university (RS only!)
  4. Delete any name that can't be sourced within four months or so

If the list of references promises to be excruciatingly long, then do away with the list and use a category instead. (Of course, inclusion in the category should require a RS.)

How does this sound? -- Hoary (talk) 08:54, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

This is something I have also noted recently, and agree entirely with your suggested course of action. --DAJF (talk) 13:24, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
You and I have made a start. Now all that has to be done is the remaining 98% of the work on that article, and all the work on hundreds more universities. A thrilling prospect! ¶ [later:] Hoping to bring down the former figure to a more manageable 96%, I decided to "source" one more claim. I clicked on the bios of five more artistes. Not one sourced the claim that the person had graduated from the particular university. For at least two of these articles I clicked on any vaguely authoritative-looking source provided for the article; as a whole none told me anything. One article even implored editors to augment it by translating from the Japanese article; inferring that the Japanese article would be good, I took a look -- and no, it was a dreary chronology, completely unsourced and richly meriting warning flags of its own. (I'm not sure that I have ever seen an article in ja:WP that merited translation.) Eventually I found one source (NYT!) for a second person's study. -- Hoary (talk) 14:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, enough of Geidai.

That article had, and still has, four photos of individuals said to have studied or taught there (of which at least one is copyright with a very dubious "fair use" rationale). No evidence was presented either in that article or in the biographical articles for the relationship of any one of these to the university. And I've given up looking in ja:WP for evidence for anything -- ja:WP seems to be a collection of factoids vaguely remembered as seen on the telly, or similar.

I've now sourced two of the four individuals. As for the other two, I'm pretty sure that Sakamoto and Kitano are indeed related, but I got tired of looking for solid evidence. And the lists of alumni and faculty members remain largely unsourced.

Japanese universities are a disaster area within en:WP. I'd hope that we can at least agree:

  • to stop adding any claim of affiliation -- having studied there, having taught there -- that isn't reliably sourced
  • to remove any redlinked people
  • to remove any non-linked people

By contrast to the intermittently interesting article on Waseda University, that on Tokyo Zokei University is a mere stub but at least every single claim of affiliation is backed up with a reliable source. -- Hoary (talk) 00:29, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Tōgō Shrine flea market

Is it true that the Tōgō Shrine flea market in Tokyo has been discontinued in 2010 (info added to the article by an ip)? If yes, what was the reason? bamse (talk) 19:13, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I can't find any reliable accounts of it closing. It's not on the Japanese version of the article. Unless any sources can be given to back up the claim, I'd say it's just hearsay. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 19:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
It seems to be true. Its home page says so. (Google translate) ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
So it will end in December, but hasn't ended yet. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 00:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
No. The message was posted last year. The last market was held on December 6, 2009 according to other sources.―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 00:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
What other sources? The page you linked to gives no year for the information, only a month and day. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 00:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I just found this blog which says "2009年の12月6日が最終開催日だったんですね。" And this blog says "東郷神社の骨董市は、昨年12月6日をもって終了。" Obviously those links shouldn't be used and I'm not finding an actual RS to back up the claims so it can be sourced on the page, but there you go. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 00:48, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, that's good enough to know the date. It's possible a local newspaper would have covered it, but we'd have to have access to the newspaper archives to confirm that. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 00:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
The year in which December 6 is Sunday is 1998 and 2009. ;-) ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 01:09, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, but who besides you is going to look up something like that? ;) ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:57, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Vernacular architecture

After provisionally linking from my new article Katsuhito Nakazato to nagaya, I clicked on the latter and found myself in an article about some very old geezer who'd been a member of the Imperial family of the best birth and who was forced to die because of unreasonable reasons. (Most alarmingly: In 1988, the former site of Nagaya's residence was discovered with many wooden tablets and historic relics on the construction site of a Sogo department store. Sogo did not care and continued construction. Twelve years after the department store's completion, Sogo went bankrupt [unsourced]. Damn!) All in all your typical en:WP Japanese bio, although it fails to tell us which blood group he had and which commercials he appeared in.

I'd been naively expecting an article on plain old 長屋. But I think that the only reference to these in en:WP is here in "Housing in Japan". This tells us: In premodern Japan, commoners typically lived either in free-standing houses, now known as minka, or, predominantly in cities, in machiya (町屋) or row-houses called nagaya (長屋). Examples are still visible in Kyoto. It doesn't start to explain what these "row-houses" are, and the impression it gives of their belonging to the past and tourist spots hardly squares with the book I have in front of me now, Nakazato and Nakano's 長屋迷路, a collection of photographs taken in Mukōjima and elsewhere in Sumida-ku less than a decade ago.

Is there nobody hereabouts equipped to write about Japanese architecture? -- Hoary (talk) 00:11, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Ink Music: In the Land of the Hundred-Tongued Lyricist

Ever heard of this film? No, I hadn't either. Which is OK in itself, but when I saw it spammed I got rattled. You may disagree. -- Hoary (talk) 13:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Anyone interested in kids' picture books?

This triggered this. -- Hoary (talk) 13:18, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Three old documents, translation help

Please help! For the "content" column in List of National Treasures of Japan (ancient documents), I am struggling with the translation of some Japanese texts related to three ancient documents. The documents and some links are:

  1. Rigen daishi hitsu shobunshō (理源大師筆処分状), [1]
  2. Stone in Nasu County (那須国造碑, nasu kokuzō hi), [2], [3]
  3. History and Legends of the Kōryū-ji temple (広隆寺縁起資財帳, kōryū-ji engi shizai chō); source required

I don't need an exact translation, just one or two lines about the content of these documents. bamse (talk) 14:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

How about these?
  1. A letter of dismissal written by Rigendaishi.
  2. Stone monument in remembrance of Atainoide/Ataeide/Ide of Nasu.
  3. Catalogue of treasures and historical record of the temple.
    What kind of reference do you want? How about this? [4] Oda Mari (talk) 08:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. As for 1., who was dismissed and why? If I am not mistake, the link says something about an elderly head priest and "unsuitable" (for health reasons?), but I don't manage to make sense of the parts of that sentence. By "source required" in "3" I meant any kind of source speaking about the content of that document. bamse (talk) 08:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)


A dispute has arisen on this article about whether including an illustration is appropiate. Project members are invited to visit the talk page to contribute to the debate. Caveat for project members - this article is about a sexual activity. Exxolon (talk) 12:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Akira Kurosawa

I am pleased to announce that the article Akira Kurosawa, formerly a B-class article (rated as of Top Importance by Wikiproject:Japan), has recently been nominated by me as a Featured Article. It would be appreciated if participants in Wikiproject:Japan would go to the Featured article candidates page and have a look.


Dylanexpert (talk) 16:47, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Japan and divorce

I wonder if this source can help things out:

WhisperToMe (talk) 07:32, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Food task force?


Do we already have a food task force? I started a stub for Narutomaki topped on ramen.--Shinkansen Fan (talk) 12:16, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

We don't have one right now, but I'd support having one. Anyone else interested in one being created? ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I've done several translations of food articles. Could be marginally useful. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:58, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
I'd be interested as well. Would be a new field for me, so not sure if I could be of much help though. bamse (talk) 17:36, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I've created one: Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Food and drink task force. Please be sure to tag articles appropriately. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:17, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Is there a category for those articles? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 12:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Nihonjoe. I find it odd that nobody wrote anything on narutomaki despite the popularity of ramen and the Naruto franchise. It seems that we need to work on many food and drink articles. --Shinkansen Fan (talk) 12:25, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I just tried tossing in a category on the template, but my templating skills are disappointingly lame. Nihonjoe, can you take a look? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 12:41, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Fixed. It may take a day or so for those articles already tagged a part of the task force to show up in the category. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:52, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Did you mention it to WP:WikiProject Food and Drink ? Perhaps it should be a joint taskforce? (talk) 06:58, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
Nope, but you did. I've left a note there as well. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:21, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this article named right?


The article Myouyama seems to be named wrong, provided sources (in talk page) give different names, and user wrote "canji" seeming to indicate a weak grasp on romanizing words. Maybe it is OK, but I thought I would put it here for someone to check. Cheers, Nesnad (talk) 15:31, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, it could be any of the locations listed here, though many are redlinks. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 16:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Could it be 妙山 instead? I'm having a hard time finding either name near Mt. Fuji. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:20, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Okay, a bit more. The article links to this topographical map. I've lined it up more or less on Google Maps. This is a review of a place nearby and says "鉄砲木ノ頭 てっぽうぎのあたま (明神山)". So maybe it's supposed to be called Myōjinsan? (I'm also starting to question the notability of this article: a grassy area on a mountain that's referenced by unreliable sources?) — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:32, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I moved to the correct name. Oda Mari (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
The Mount Fuji article used to have a big problem with tourist activity spam (paragliding, etc.). I suspect this article is just an outgrowth of that, rather than a location that's notable in its own right. Good luck getting any location article deleted, though. Gavia immer (talk) 17:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Japan Go Association

I was wondering about how to translate Nihon Ki-in. It appears to have been translated into English as Japan Go Assocation, which sounds peculiar. I would expect Japanese Go Assocation to be used. However, I have also seen it said that Japan Go Institute is the correct literal translation. Does anyone have any opinions on this?--ZincBelief (talk) 11:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Women in Japan

The page Women in Japan is in need of expert attention. It cites few sources, and has been tagged as an essay and possibly original research. Five potential sources are listed, but with no footnotes or in-text references. Cnilep (talk) 15:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

It appears to be a rip from Apparently the articles on that site are cited to Ronald E. Dolan and Robert L. Worden, editors. Japan: A Country Study. Washington: GPO for the Library of Congress, 1994. It looks like you can also access it from and go to 'Gender Stratification and the Lives of Women' at the bottom. (You can't bookmark it; something about temporary locations.) What I'm not sure about is whether it's copyvio or plagiarism; either way it doesn't belong. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:27, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Good call; a couple of pages up is the notice, "Copyright © 2003 - 2010 Country Studies US," meaning it is a copyright violation. I have tagged the page for speedy deletion. Cnilep (talk) 17:39, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Nope, it's a work of the US federal government (Library of Congress) and thus in the public domain. The Country Studies copyright claim is bogus. Jpatokal (talk) 00:00, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Toshiya Fuji - can you help?

This previously PRODded article on Japanese actor Toshiya Fuji is about to be nominated for AfD due to lack of sources. On the face of it ("He appeared as Gaku Hoshikawa (or Five Red) in the Japanese tokusatsu television series Chikyuu Sentai Fiveman between 1990 and 1991."), he might just meet the criteria for WP:ENT but several editors have tried, and failed, to find any reliable third party sources for the text. IMDB and seem to be the only sources we can find (which is not enough). More detail on the article talk page. I'm posting here in case anyone in this project might like to take an interest.--Plad2 (talk) 06:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Article has now been nominated for deletion. If anyone would like to comment, they can do so here.--Plad2 (talk) 05:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Quick translation help

Sorry to bother again. For List of National Treasures of Japan (writings), I'd like to know what keiringe, nangakuge (渓林偈、南獄偈) are about. The official museum's page is unfortunately in flash and a bit hard to read for me. Hope that somebody can help. To get there: start here, then click on "禅" (right of the three menus), then on "大燈国師墨蹟 渓林偈、南獄偈". The explanation should appear on the left side of the screen. I don't need a precise translation. Thanks in advance. bamse (talk) 09:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

渓林偈 is a poem about nature's great harmony when 大燈国師, aka ja:宗峰妙超 , looked at a copse in the late fall. 南獄偈 is a poem about the grandeur of 南嶽衡山/Mount Heng (Hunan) and the admiration for the Chinese emperor then. Oda Mari (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks a lot! bamse (talk) 16:22, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Reading help

What is the reading for 与宗悟大姉法語? It is the last entry in this table, i.e., a sermon by Shūhō Myōchō (宗峰妙超) from 1330 and located at Daisen-in, Kyoto. The last part is most likely hōgo/sermon, but I can't make sense of 与宗悟大姉. bamse (talk) 15:37, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure how the whole words read in Japanese. However its meaning is "Sermon for Sōgo Taishi" [5] or "Sermon dedicated to Sōgo Taishi" 与(yo, for or dedicated to) 宗悟大姉(Sōgo taishi) 法語(hōgo, sermon). Taishi (literally Great sister)is a honorific title for nuns. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 10:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. bamse (talk) 23:31, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Japan to do list

Hi! While the "Featured content candidates" on the WP:JP page appear to be automatically generated and up to date, those in the template (such as this) seem to be outdated. Is this a known problem? bamse (talk) 23:34, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know that the to do list has been updated for a long time. People tend to just use the project page instead. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:39, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable, I just thought that the template was updated automagically as well. bamse (talk) 09:37, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
That would be nice. :) ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 15:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

League of Diet Members Believing the Objectives of the Holy War

League of Diet Members Believing the Objectives of the Holy War seems Taisei Yokusankai. See the first contribution, this article is almost the same one. The article title is very suspicious, there is no original Japanese title on the page. I think the first editor creat his coined word.--Bukubku (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The original title was "League of Diet Members by leaving [sic] the objetives [sic] of Holly [sic] War". How about redirecting the current title to Taisei Yokusankai? -- Hoary (talk) 00:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Redirect is a resolution. However, the titile seems one Wikipedians coined word, so the redirect title is inappropriate.--Bukubku (talk) 00:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
A lot of articles link to this oddly titled and misbegotten one. Probably most do because of the template, but offhand I don't know. Whatever is done, should be done while aware of incoming links. However, all of this is a secondary matter. Primary is: Is there anything to "League of Diet Members Believing the Objectives of the Holy War"? Let's wait a little, to see what others think. -- Hoary (talk) 01:30, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
I found ja:聖戦貫徹議員連盟. I corrected the page title.--Bukubku (talk) 16:21, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Much ado about nothing

There's a discussion at Talk:Mu (negative) over whether 無 in Japanese "commonly" refers to its English interpretation of 'your question is meaningless'. Additional feedback welcome. Jpatokal (talk) 02:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Bump! Jpatokal (talk) 12:12, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
Oh dear Nothingness. What you have there is either someone thoroughly arrogant and blissfully unaware of their own brusqueness or you are being trolled. I might comment when (if...) I make my way through all the comments, if I have something meaningful to add. I do want to express my commiserations to you for having to deal with people who think saying stuff like "I read Japanese children's books, and I have Japanese friends, so there!" is real impressive. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:40, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I have to confess that I haven't even read most of the talk page... simply sourcing the sensible bits and flagging anything dubious directly in the article is probably the best way forward. Jpatokal (talk) 12:59, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

The VAIBS guy is back

Remember the VAIBS article? It appears that particular editor is back, and another of his articles is facing imminent deletion here. Just thought I'd give you guys a heads up, in case some of you hadn't noticed. TomorrowTime (talk) 13:18, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

New proposed draft for Sea of Japan naming dispute

The article Sea of Japan naming dispute has been under full protection for about 1 month due to an edit war that occurred in August. Discussion on the talk page stalled at the end of August, and there are not many active participants on that page. Since that time, I have been working on a wholly new draft to fix, as best as I could, many of the numerous problems on the article. Since this article falls within the purview of this Wikiproject, I am inviting members to come participate in the discussion on the talk page at Sea of Japan naming dispute#Major overhaul, which explains the current articles deficiencies (poor sources, disorganized, etc.) and what I have done to fix them. In that section you will find a link to the draft version in my user space. While this article and its subject are clearly a contentious matter, I sincerely believe that we can create a useful and NPOV article about the subject through the careful involvement of more editors. Thank you for any help you can provide. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:30, 28 September 2010 (UTC)