Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lighthouses

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WikiProject Lighthouses (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of WikiProject Lighthouses, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of lighthouses and other water navigational aids on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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Expert attention[edit]

This is a notice about Category:Lighthouses articles needing expert attention, which might be of interest to your WikiProject. It will take a while before the category is populated. Iceblock (talk) 05:23, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for setting up this category. I'm sure there are some articles out there that do need expert attention. De728631 (talk) 12:08, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

General lighthouse authority[edit]

I've gone and updated this on the deduction that this is strictly an Irish/UK thing. People familiar with the area should review the current version. Mangoe (talk) 03:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Article Alerts[edit]

The article alerts subscription for this project is restricted to (DEL, COPYVIO, PR, RfC), see Wikipedia:Article_alerts/Subscription_list#L so it doesn't show Good Article Nominations or Requested Moves for example. Does anyone have any objection to this being changed to all alerts...Jokulhlaup (talk) 17:35, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Changed to all, and heading on project page updated...Jokulhlaup (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live![edit]

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Light(house) vs light(house) article name[edit]

Looking around I've noticed that some articles use a lower case l, mostly as (Foobar lighthouse), but the majority use a capital L (Foobar Light(house)). I have always used the capital L, but for clarification in case anyone is unsure I thought I would raise it here. Is there an agreed consensus to use the capital L for article names ?...Jokulhlaup (talk) 14:30, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

That's a good question. I'm not aware of any consensus for using upper or lower case letters. But, if in doubt we should just go along with WP:COMMONNAME and use whatever the majority of reliable sources is using. And that means that there may not even be a common scheme to follow. Unless this has been discussed before, I'd suggest though that we use Light(house) with a capital L if that is the common name (most often when part of the proper name), and light(house) with a lower-case l if that is just meant as a sort of addendum or disambiguation for non-English names or names in nautical charts where just the geographic location is being used. De728631 (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
For US lights the Coast Guard invariably capitalizes "Light" (which they prefer these days over "Lighthouse"). I would tend to say that the usage of the controlling authority in each country should be followed (e.g. in the UK that would be Trinity House). Mangoe (talk) 14:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
The term 'lighthouse' has been in use for several centuries, so I propose it is not changed. 'Light' can mean too many other things - lighthouse is very specific. Whether it should be a proper noun is debatable, but when referring to a particular lighthouse (such as Foobar Lighthouse) it should be capitalised IMHO.GlassyEye (talk) 09:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Portal:Lighthouses[edit]

I have pulled together a portal for lighthouses at Portal:Lighthouses as there seemed to be a good selection of articles, pictures and DYK’s to make it look interesting. To select articles I created a recognized content page using JL-Bot, which is now at Lighthouses recognized content. I have overwritten the existing manual list on the main page as well, for featured, good and DYK articles. Hopefully, the portal and the project page changes will prove useful...Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:01, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Norwegian merger[edit]

We have Lighthouses in Norway, and we have List of lighthouses in Norway. It seems to me that these ought to be merged, but which way? Mangoe (talk) 20:05, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I would suggest merging Lighthouses in Norway into the List of lighthouses in Norway article. The listing has more information, and matches other European lighthouse lists...Jokulhlaup (talk) 08:48, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
That was the way I was leaning, but I wanted to hear from others first. Mangoe (talk) 17:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
Agreed, let's have List of lighthouses in Norway as the representative article. De728631 (talk) 14:37, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Lighthouse Directory[edit]

I have just prodded this stub. While the directory itself is invaluable, I think we can hardly justify having an article about it when there is almost no coverage by other media. De728631 (talk) 14:44, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Standard format for US state lists[edit]

Hi there. I'm working on Maryland lights. One of my goals is to get the List of lighthouses in Maryland up to Featured List status. I am of course using the Connecticut list as a guide since it has reached feature quality. I note that the MD list has an 'automated' column. In the interest of making the lists consistent I was considering removing that column from the Maryland list. Other than that I think improving the reference/citations in-line should just about get it there. TheCrazedBeast (talk) 23:47, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

TheCrazedBeast, I don't know why "automated" is missing from the Connecticut list; I've put it on basically every other list as it is a datum that the CG provides, and the transition from manned to unmanned is of interest to people. Mangoe (talk) 14:53, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the info Mangoe. I'll leave well enough alone then. TheCrazedBeast (talk) 18:12, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
TheCrazedBeast, One thing I do find surprising on the US Lists is the lack of a column for Tower Height, so a casual reader can’t sort the table to see which is the tallest/shortest and those in between. The lead for the Connecticut list tells us the tallest lighthouse is the New London Harbor Light, but the only height given in the table is that for the Focal Height (which has no link or note to a definition). The Range of the active lights would also be something to consider (i.e. which is the most powerful light in the state)...Jokulhlaup (talk) 10:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
It's not there because I haven't been able to get it with any consistency. Range is likewise only available as rule for active lights. There's aso the question of how many columns there is room for. Mangoe (talk) 12:06, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation Mangoe, does that mean that Rowlett’s directory is not considered consistent enough for use in these articles?..Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Animated characteristics[edit]

So in my editing adventures I naturally stumbled across several lights with an animated gif of the characteristic. I found them a bit lacking in that I could not use the same look and also incorporate sectoring. So, I make a few of my own. Please have a look in commons:Category:Lighthouse_signals to see them along with the older style. They are simple to make and I would be happy to create them for anyone. Note that the timing can be very precise (to the millisecond). You can see one in action at Baltimore Harbor Light. Comments and suggestions welcome! TheCrazedBeast (talk) 03:09, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi! Would you create an animated signal that flashes green at 5-second intervals for the Block Island Southeast Light? It could be modified from one of your existing animations which flash white at 5-second intervals and green at 4-second intervals. Waz8:T-C-E 00:55, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Done and added to the article infobox. I happened to add one to the BI North light recently too. Came across them as I was starting to plan a trip to Block Island this spring to go geocaching ;) Any other requests just post on my talk page! TheCrazedBeast (talk) 18:27, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, your animation on the BI North light is what prompted my request. I haven't been there since 2015 -- enjoy your trip! Waz8:T-C-E 04:01, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Category:Round towers has been nominated for discussion[edit]

Category:Round towers has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to see if it abides with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. --Bermicourt (talk) 10:11, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Article importance assessment[edit]

Whilst assessing lighthouse articles I have struggled to interpret the current criteria for article importance on the assessment page. I checked the project archives containing the discussion about how the criteria came about, which included some further ideas about how they could be improved. I have reworked those ideas into the table below.

Importance Types/Lists No. of Sites Cats Petscan Lighthouse articles Totals
High
World Heritage Site 1,052 Category:World Heritage Sites by country Tower of Hercules 1  
List of Historic Civil Engineering Landmarks 260 Category:Historic Civil Engineering Landmarks HCEL 5  
National Historic Landmark 2,500 Category:National Historic Landmark lighthouses 19  
National Historic Sites of Canada 976 Category:Lighthouses on the National Historic Sites of Canada register 16 65
Grade I listed buildings in England and Wales 9,000 Category:Grade I listed lighthouses 1  
Category A listed buildings in Scotland 3,800 Category:Category A listed lighthouses 20  
Category I listed buildings in New Zealand 1,005 Category:New Zealand Historic Places Trust Category I listings NZ 3  
Mid
National Register of Historic Places 85,000 Category:Lighthouses on the National Register of Historic Places NRHP 483  
Canadian Register of Historic Places 17,000 Category:Lighthouses on the Canadian Register of Historic Places 23  
Grade II* listed buildings in England and Wales 20,000 Category:Grade II* listed lighthouses 3  
Grade II listed buildings in England and Wales 300,000 Category:Grade II listed lighthouses 16  
Category B listed buildings in Scotland 24,000 Category:Category B listed lighthouses 21 708
Category C listed buildings in Scotland 20,000 Category:Category C listed lighthouses 3  
Riksantikvaren (Norway) 5,700 Category:Listed lighthouses in Norway 46  
National Inventory of Architectural Heritage (Ireland) ???? Category:Lighthouses on the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage 18  
Australian Heritage Registers 13,000 Category:Heritage registers in Australia Aus 53  
Rijksmonument (Holland) 51,000 Category:Rijksmonuments Rijksm 20  
Bien de Interés Cultural (Spain) 13,000 Category:Bienes de Interés Cultural BIC 5  
Monument historique (France) 44,000 Category:Official historical monuments of France MH 14  
Kulturdenkmal (Germany) ??? Category:Heritage sites in Germany Germany 1  
Other heritage registered lighthouses  
Low Other Lighthouses 1,218
All All Total: 1,991

It’s not perfect (as the various designations are not all comparable), maybe the Tower of Hercules should be in the Top category as the only World heritage site. But hopefully it will prompt a discussion and help to clarify the importance of the many unassessed articles which still persist...Jokulhlaup (talk) 14:42, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

As there have been no queries, I have updated the article importance table with a summary of the entries above so that importance can be assessed for heritage lighthouses...Jokulhlaup (talk) 16:59, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Jokulhlaup My question is about individual lighthouses and the Importance rating attached to them. Point Clark Lighthouse, one of the Imperial Towers seems to be unique and yet is rated as Low importance.
one of the National Historic Sites of Canada, the only lighthouse on the Great Lakes or Georgian Bay to receive this highest-level designation.
Your thoughts? Cheers, Peter K Burian (talk) 21:51, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
(Belated Reply) Peter K Burian, using the table above, NHSC lighthouses are of high importance so Point Clark falls into that class. I have now made the changes to the talk pages in the Category:Lighthouses on the National Historic Sites of Canada register...Jokulhlaup (talk) 08:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Lists[edit]

The remaining area of articles that do not have an importance rating are the various Lists of Lighthouses in x. I propose that these should be assessed according to the number of lights listed.

  • High for lists that contain over 100 lighthouses.
  • Mid for lists with 99-10 lighthouses 99 - 26 lighthouses.
  • Low for lists with less than 10 less than 26.

Unless anyone has a better scheme I will assess these articles in the near(ish) future...Jokulhlaup (talk) 15:04, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Looking at the lists in closer detail revealed that the original breakpoint for low/mid was against what was already being used, hence it has been revised upwards so that Low class is now applies to a list of 25 or fewer lighthouses....Jokulhlaup (talk) 13:07, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Looks like a good idea to me. De728631 (talk) 13:16, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

Why is this one not in List of lighthouses in Ontario[edit]

I don't know who started the list and whether I can just go ahead and add some.

I know there are some missing, including the Range Light in Southampton, Ontario. Called the Saugeen Front Range Light and the Saugeen Rear Range Light. AND the McNab Point Lighthouse. All are discussed in this article: [1] Any suggestions?

@Jokulhlaup: Your thoughts about this? Peter K Burian (talk) 21:53, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

@Peter K Burian: my response may be quite belated, but of course you are welcome to add some lighthouses to this list (and to others you happen come across). In addition to that news article, details about the year of contruction, the location etc. can also be found in the Lighthouse Directory. You can cite this web-subpage using {{cite rowlett|onlh}}. Other pages from the Lighthouse Directory can also be cited with the same template using different parameters. De728631 (talk) 14:13, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
OK, thanks De728631 Peter K Burian (talk) 14:20, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

FYI: USCG Lighhouse pages are down[edit]

I haven't been able to access any of the USCG lighthouse by state pages in several weeks. Some page higher in the site work OK, but not those on individual states. Mangoe (talk) 20:02, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

OK, it's gotten worse: for a while you could get to them directly, but apparently, two days ago they rearranged everything, and now essentially everything on the USCG historical site is inaccessible. Worse, their search page finds all the old pages, which you cannot actually see. Mangoe (talk) 12:01, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Category:Lighthouse museums[edit]

On @Anna Frodesiak:'s advice I decided to make a new section here regarding this category. I will copy/paste the discussion header from her talk page here:

I am thinking about depopulating this category in favor of a list of notable museums or an article about lighthouse museums. My reasoning is that so many current lighthouses contain a visitor center or small museum which is run by foundations or by the coast guard. Some stand out examples to consider might be defunct lighthouses that have since been turned into museums or the like.

I took a further look at the category and found that the tag was being added to articles that make no mention of a museum. So my questions are as follows...

1. If a lighthouse is open to the public would it be qualified then as a visitor center or museum? (Somebody is there maintaining things)
2. If so then should the category be renamed "Lighthouses open to the public" or the like?
3. Do we need a category for all of the lighthouses that are open to the public (WP:OVERCAT), or are the present categories enough? (We have: Category:Lighthouses by country, Category:Lighthouses by heritage register, Category:Lighthouses by sea, Category:Lighthouses by year of completion, and Category:Lists of lighthouses).

Input here would be most helpful. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:03, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

I will give this a week until I act upon anything per WP:SILENCE, I'm not sure where else I can gain more feedback (WP:PUMP or WP:RFC maybe?). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:56, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
There were zero comments so I think it's inappropriate to start removing categories. It should be an RFC and probably add a note to relevant projects' talkpages as well. WikiProject Washington recommended. ☆ Bri (talk) 14:33, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
Wikiproject Washington would only deal with matters involving the state though. If it is any consolation I left in Category:Museums in Snohomish County, Washington which is fine enough, yes? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:39, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
As someone who does a lot of categorization of files on Commons, the main question to me is, is this intersection of museum and lighthouse important/interesting/helpful enough to warrant a category? I'm not a member of this WikiProject, so I leave that determination up to the rest of you, but for my two cents, I would prefer that it be left there. I noticed this edit at Battery Point Light and found my way here. The relevant categories that are remaining are Category:Museums in Del Norte County, California and Category:Lighthouses on the National Register of Historic Places in California, but now there's no easy way to see which lighthouses in California are museums or open to the public in any way (and "open to the public" does not necessarily equal "museum"). Sure, you could add an additional column to List of lighthouses in California, but I think it's easier for editors to add a category to an article than realize there's a list article they should also be editing. howcheng {chat} 22:18, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
@Howcheng: The problem is the definition of "lighthouse museum" which is sparse when it comes to sources. Lighthouses are old structures that no longer serve as a primary means of navigation, so by default one would assume they were museums unless stated otherwise. Like I said it would be easier just to have a category for lighthouses that are open to the public as that is easier to source. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:36, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@Knowledgekid87: When you say "one would assume", I think by "one" you mean "one who is familiar with lighthouses", and I respectfully suggest that that's too limited a definition. My definition of "lighthouse museum" would be a lighthouse that has its own web site where it describes itself as being a museum, or listed on a city/county/travel site (TripAdvisor, etc) as being a museum. Otherwise, it's just a lighthouse. But again, I'm not an expert, so take from that what you will. howcheng {chat} 03:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87 has been doing wholesale edits to lighthouse articles.
"Removed museum category, if any given lighthouse is open to the public then it is more than likely also a museum."
I don't disagree with your assertion, but I believe this action is not the most helpful path to the readers.
Is it not better to have too many categories than too few? This is misguided, throwing out the baby with the bathwater. It is an example of the Dunning–Kruger effect, IMO. Actions uninformed by actual knowledge. E.g., Sturgeon Point Light has a rather complete lighthouse and maritime museum. 7&6=thirteen () 12:07, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Knowledgekid87 has effectively deleted the category "Lighthouse Museums" by removing every single entry. This is a form of vandalism, it seems to me. Is there any way to do a wholesale rollback? —Dilidor (talk) 12:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
I'll pass it on to a couple of admins and see what, if anything, they choose to do. 7&6=thirteen () 13:14, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@7&6=thirteen: I'm admin, and I think your accusation of "vandalism" is a little too harsh. We don't punish longtime editors for acting in good faith and being WP:BOLD. This is just part of the normal WP:BRD cycle, although since many pages were affected, we're doing the other steps a little out of order. [Edit: sorry, that was Dilidor who made the vandalism charge]howcheng {chat} 15:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
As you corrected yourself, I did not accuse anyone of "vandalism". I think those edits – depopulating the lighthouse/museum shared categories – were severely misguided, but I WP:AGF. 7&6=thirteen () 16:20, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for WP:AGF, my intention was not to disrupt anything. As I have been trying to say.... there is little support for the definition of "lighthouse museum". We shouldn't be going by if a lighthouse has a gift shop or not. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:11, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
I think we can keep the inclusion criteria fairly straightforward: if the organization running the lighthouse calls it a museum, then it's a museum. Otherwise not. howcheng {chat} 18:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough, the categories will not auto empty for 7 days so there is time to repopulate them with examples that fit this criteria. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:03, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@Dilidor: Why cant you use Category:Lighthouses in Connecticut? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:19, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

@Howcheng: I was not intending to accuse anyone of anything malicious in mentioning vandalism; I was attempting to underscore the significance of the sweeping deletions. Please do not take my words to mean that I was making any "charge". @Knowledgekid87: I reverted the two lighthouse edits merely to restore them to the category; please feel free to add them to the Connecticut sub-cat if that is more appropriate. —Dilidor (talk) 18:20, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Comment - Well most of the articles are now restored, I did not do so for lighthouses with no mention of a museum in the article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

I have noted that Knowledgekid87 has restored many of the pages to the way they were before his deletions. I have not reviewed them all. I am not endorsing all of them, but we can revisit individual articles, and I take KK87's words a face value. But it seems that we are in agreement. WP:Dead horse. 7&6=thirteen () 13:40, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

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