Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

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Jeffrey Allen Sinclair[edit]

Please see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 August 22 on the deletion of an article on a general officer. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I shudder to think of the repercussion’s this could have on the task force. This one deletion debate is going to overturn existing precedent wrt general and flag officer notability and single handedly make a huge number of articles about BGenerals deletable. Gbawden (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
It will certainly impact articles on living one-stars. That's unfortunate and I think BLP should be reviewed to distinguish between Internet rumor and events on the public record. Having said that, when I read the article I came away with the sense that I did not know what he had accomplished before or after being promoted to BG.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 12:50, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. The few deletionists here must be rubbing their hands in glee and preparing to use it as a precedent to destroy others' work as they love to do. Oh what joy to destroy instead of create! We're making Wikipedia better by deleting articles on senior officials, they cry! This attitude frankly makes me despair for Wikipedia sometimes. However, I dispute that a single AfD should destroy years of clear precedent and consensus at AfD. Anyone who attempts to use it as such is very much working against the spirit of Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:49, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
No one is saying a "one-star" isn't notable per se, they just need to have significant coverage. Hell the bloke that cleans out the public toilet in Aberdeen would be notable as long as he has been covered in multiple reliable sources which provide enough detail for a complete biography... Anotherclown (talk) 06:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
I think some of the above is an overreaction. The issue in this case was a "one event BLP"-type issue, not really that he was a one-star. And Anotherclown Wee Jock Poo-Pong McPlop would have the usual GNG issue with "multiple" sources, and perhaps the reliability of the source in question... Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:04, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
At least there is someone around here of the req'd vintage to get the reference (feel free to be offended by that)... Yes I agree re your assessment of that particular AFD (i.e. BLP1E was one of the main issues not his rank). So I doubt there will be wholesale AFDing of brigadier-generals anytime soon regardless of the result of the DRV. Anotherclown (talk) 07:29, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me for a somewhat off topic comment as I know this is beyond our control, but this is page is still appearing on Google over 6 days after it was deleted. Even further off, another Jeffrey Sinclair was the first station Commander on Babylon 5. :-/ 220 of Borg 13:30, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

MILHIST membership category[edit]

FYI, there is a proposal at WP:AFC/C about creating a new category for members of WPMILHIST called Category:WikiProject Military history Members -- (talk) 04:16, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Is there? FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Look for the request filed by Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk · contribs) aka "KC Velaga ∞∞∞" -- (talk) 04:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Battle of Britain Bunker[edit]

Just came from copy editing [1] and especially removing some 'promotional' text [2] from Battle of Britain Bunker. The page could use some attention from editors with some knowledge in this area. The page also has only one real footnote, though it has several potential sources in "Further reading". My first, edit re. "15 September 1940", is of concern as I am unsure what the original writer meant, regards, 220 of Borg 13:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Replacement of established Commons links by obscure template:Subject bar?[edit]

We have long had a fairly stable style of linking to Commons (see WP:COMMONS) through the {{Commons category}} template.

There is also a template {{Subject bar}}. News to me too - I'd never heard of it until today. Seems it not too popular, it hit TfD for the second time recently Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_July_1#Template:Subject_bar, "A mere 1,477 transclusions in 4.8 million articles, in over four years, show that this template has failed to gain traction with the community;". Note also that this {{Subject bar}} template uses the Commons search mechanism (and its random return of synonyms) rather than linking simply and directly to a useful category.

There is now a push, at least on MILHIST topics, [3] [4] [5] to remove the existing Commons link template and replace it through the {{Subject bar}} style. I've no great aversion to {{Subject bar}} as a portal or navbox, it's yet more of that useless crud that accumulates at the bottom of pages rather than useful editing, but there is as yet no consensus to start removing the established, recognised and functional template.

Thoughts? Andy Dingley (talk) 20:41, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Getting rid of Commons category seems a bit of a bogus way to promote a novelty no-one knows or cares about.Keith-264 (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
The Commons category usually doesn't contribute much, as in most cases most or even all the available images are used in the article already. I tend to replace the {{Commons category}} with the subject bar when there are links to more than one project, like Wikinews, Wikiquote or Wikisource. I'm sure the {{Subject bar}} maintainers would be amenable to changing it to use the category rather than the search. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:06, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
If Commons "doesn't contribute much" (which I would dispute), then don't link it. The question here isn't if Commons should be linked, but how it should be linked.
At present, the standard Commons link box is recognisable to a large number of readers. This new navbox hides it away below a number of portal-like (i.e. subject navigation, orthogonal to Commons) links. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Note that possible edit warring on this matter how now provoked a discussion on ANI -here.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:51, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Copying my comment here as well. I want to point out that I introduced the {{tl:subject bar}} to introduce the relevant portals to the article, which were missing until my addition. Since the subject bar aggregates both portal inclusion as well as reference to commons (among many other useful links), it is only natural to integrate into one common presentation paradigm. The term "obscure" is POV. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I've now looked at Douglas MacArthur, which I think uses it to advantage. I'm entirely comfortable with it as an addition, rather than a replacement. In the areas in which I edit the Commons Category template is frequently used in its inline format at an appropriate section of the article, which I think works better than the standard template placed at the end. For end placement, it's a tossup for me. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:24, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
It's definitely less cluttered to have all the portal/sister project links in one area, but having it all at the bottom of the page seems suboptimal, especially when the sister project/commons templates are usually above the navigation boxes. My only other gripe with the subject template is that it doesn't have the the eyecatching addition of the article name in bold to draw attention to it (e.g. Find out more about Article on...") -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 02:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
From the comments made so far, I draw the conclusion that the template, although not widely deployed (so far), can be used to aggregate links to portals, commons, quotations, etc. It is a legitimate convenient tool on Wiki and there is nothing inherently flawed with the template itself. Lack of knowledge about its existence is no reason to avoid its usage. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
The usage in Douglas MacArthur really helps to avoid clutter within the main article. But the advantage in articles with few portal and sister project links is less clear. Pushing such links even further down, away from the main text, should be a last resort imo, if no other viable solution can be found to avoid clutter. In any case, it's a bit early to draw conclusions after just 3 days of discussion in a limited project forum. If the template is deemed helpful by its supporters, it should be announced and discussed on a VP forum anyway (maybe it was and I just missed it). GermanJoe (talk) 19:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Following the above I had a look at Douglas MacArthur and I have several comments. The first is why is it not collapsed like all the other clutter at the end of the page? As this template will usually be in the external links section there are a couple of relevant pieces of guidance in Wikipedia:External links:

I would be interested to here whether others think that the {{Subject bar}} in the Douglas MacArthur article meets this requirement and restriction. -- PBS (talk) 16:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Subject bar makes sense when there are multiple external projects eg pictures, texts etc. And where those links (in the words of the template notes) "typically [sic] cause formatting issues because of their size and alignment" But I'd be wary of introducing something that is less familiar to average reader when not needed. Don't care for look of the subject bar layout to boot - too much bold.
Curiously as a side note, why do Commons give non-common names to the galleries - Panzer III in Wikipedia, Panzerkampfwagen III on commons? GraemeLeggett (talk) 18:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Commons is dominated by Germans. Panzerkampfwagen is getting off lightly (Although note that {{Commons category}} can take a second parameter to hide this). That's why there's craziness like Media related to Driving cabs of watercraft at Wikimedia Commons. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Can anyone identify this Australian Army special forces vehicle?[edit]

Anyone know what this is?

I photographed this vehicle at the Australian Defence Force Academy's open day, but didn't think to stop to find out what it actually is. Does anyone recognise the type? It was in the area advertising roles in the Army's special operations command, and is presumably some kind of SF reconnaissance vehicle. Nick-D (talk) 01:20, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Some kind of all terrain vehicle probably. I'd be guessing but I'd say it *might* be a two seat Polaris, like a heavily modified Ranger or a MRZR 2 (although I don't think its one of them), or something else in that class. Its a pluck though so I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Its not a Supacat variant as far as I can tell or a Tomcar (not sure if ADF is even doing trials with them anyway). Anotherclown (talk) 12:02, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Way off my normal range here but, based on internet visual comparison perhaps an ATV Prowler variant? Monstrelet (talk) 14:42, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Looks like a Prowler to me. See the LTATV variant. Parsecboy (talk) 16:48, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I think you guys are right. Bin my uninformed drivel above (I was basing it on media reports of additional acquisitions of Polaris by SOCOMD [6], can't see anything which mentions Prowler. The ADM article mentions upcoming trials of Dragor (another Polaris variant) so there is clearly ongoing work being done in this area and I wonder if its part of that? Obviously as SF kit goes this is fairly basic but given the close hold that is usually placed on such projects I'm more than a little surprised that I can't find anything in open sources about it and it turns up on display at ADFA). Anotherclown (talk) 20:01, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot all - I've renamed the file to identify it as a Prowler Light Tactical All Terrain Vehicle (those photos look spot on). I was surprised by the large SOCOMD display at the open day, which included a serving commando to chat with and a Surveillance and Reconnaissance Vehicle to photograph. Nick-D (talk) 23:12, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

A-Class review for Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn al-Ash'ath needs attention[edit]

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn al-Ash'ath; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! AustralianRupert (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

A-Class review for August Meyszner needs attention[edit]

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for August Meyszner; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! AustralianRupert (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

WWII at sea question[edit]

Does anyone know of articles which might have maps of minefields around the UK, particularly in the English Channel 1939–1940? I can't find any, thanks Keith-264 (talk) 07:49, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Page 97 of the British official history (which is in the public domain, and online here has a map which seems to be exactly what you're looking for :) Nick-D (talk) 08:11, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
'Tis true but I'm looking for a Wiki article.Keith-264 (talk) 08:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
What's the context? I note that Dover Command is a red link... Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I was toying with the idea of illustrating the Dover Barrage on the Boulogne and Calais '40 pages or perhaps elsewhere in the 1940 articles. The map's public domain now isn't it?Keith-264 (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes it is. Nick-D (talk) 11:38, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Anachronistic flags on civil war unit articles[edit]

I just noticed a potential problem and was wondering if there's anything on this in an MOS or at least general consensus about it: American Civil War state unit articles commonly use the modern State flag, ie 17th Michigan Volunteer Infantry Regiment. Problem is, most modern state flags were 20th century creations (ie the Michigan flag was only adopted in 1911). However, if you remove them, the B5 criteria would be called into question since that is often the only image on the article. Am I simply overthinking this? Gecko G (talk) 19:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

It "shouldn't" affect B5 status as this refers to appropriate items such as images - if a flag is anachronistic then it is clearly not appropriate.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, and the infobox also meets the requirement for B5. Parsecboy (talk) 21:08, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
After re-reading the FAQ I see now the bit about an infobox alone being insufficient for B5 only refers to long articles.
Would it be appropriate to replace the state flags (of the future) with the National flag (Confederate or Union, as appropriate) or not since these were state raised units? Gecko G (talk) 09:15, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

List of PT boats?[edit]

We seem to be missing an article list of PT boats to complement PT boat and List of PT boat bases. We have similar lists for List of Victory ships, List of Empire ships, List of Liberty ships, List of U-boats of Germany -- (talk) 07:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

You're probably right! Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:52, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Battle of Buna–Gona[edit]

There is a discussion of Problems on the article's talk page following addition of flags re bias and length by 32dDivGuy.

Comments to date do not support the assertion of bias.

The issue of length was recognised and discussed well before the addition of the flag. The limited number of suggestions do not indicate a consensus on how to address this. More input is required at Talk:Battle of Buna–Gona#Length. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:55, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:JCW needs help![edit]

WP:JCW, a compilation of all |journal= parameters of citation templates has recently updated. Several military and military-related publications are heavily cited, and lack articles on them. Any help on writing those would be greatly appreciated (and we even have some guides at WP:JWG (journals) and WP:MWG (magazines), to help editors create these articles). I took the liberty of compiling a list, although I'm no expert on the topic, and I'm only basing myself on the titles of these publications. I could be missing a few, or include things not really related to the project, so feel free to edit the below list.

Note that for some of them, it might be preferable (e.g. if they fail WP:NJOURNALS or WP:GNG) to expand the articles on their publisher/associated societies with a section on the journal/magazine, and create a redirect to that section, rather than create a standalone article. But I leave that to MILHIST editors to decide. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 01:39, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

G'day, I've done a few as redirects (AAJ, JAWM, and Wartime). Hope this helps. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:36, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


The Vadne (ferry) article has been nominated for deletion. Mjroots (talk) 06:03, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Another pageless flag officer[edit]

Vincent R. Stewart, Lieutenant General, USMC, Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, has no page.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 15:44, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

What the heck; make that a stub.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 16:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Can anyone give me an idea which medals these are?[edit]


Please see these photographs: [7] and [8].

It is of a Syrian brigadier who once fought for the French. According to an article, he was decorated by Lebanon, Egypt, and Syria. Can anyone give me an idea as to what medals these are? Étienne Dolet (talk) 19:29, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The second pic looks like Alexei Sayle....Keith-264 (talk) 19:54, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Template submission[edit]

See Draft:Template:First PLA Da Jiang. Cheers, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 00:58, 4 September 2015 (UTC)