Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

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A veteran’s Wikipedia edits help him understand the brutality behind Yugoslavia’s wars[edit]

Hi Milhisters, you probably know me better under my volunteer username, The ed17. I'm now working with the WMF's comms team for a few months. I just published this profile of Milhist coordinator Peacemaker67 on the Wikimedia blog, and I'd love any feedback or comments you have on it. It's a great story, and I must thank Peacemaker for working with me over the last couple of weeks. Ed Erhart (WMF) (talk) 22:47, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Ed (and PM), it is indeed a great story, well put together -- I'd encourage everyone to take a look. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Ian. And thanks very much to Ed for asking me. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
You're very welcome, Peacemaker67. I feel like I learned a lot. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 02:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Well done to all involved. —  Cliftonian (talk)  04:17, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Well done, Ed and PM. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:14, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
That's an excellent article. Nick-D (talk) 11:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Erm Nato didn't try to stop violence, just make sure it led to the desired result, a dismembered Jugoslavia, same as Somalia, Iraq and Syria.Keith-264 (talk) 11:03, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Fantastic article. Thanks for Sharing, Ed and Peacemaker! auntieruth (talk) 14:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Just read this in the Signpost. Very well done and deeply moving article. — Maile (talk) 20:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Update: the WMF received a complaint about the blog post from a Wikimedian, and they have taken it down pending specific criticism. I can't give more detail without violating privacy, confidentiality, etc. etc. Those wishing to read it will have to do so in the Signpost, hopefully only for now. My apologies for the inconvenience. Ed Erhart (WMF) (talk) 22:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Just Accepted[edit]

Hello there! I've accepted Harold Edwards (RCAF officer) after an extensive copy edit, however I'd appreciate it if you had a look and tweaked it according to your own guidelines and style. It could also use an infobox. Many thanks, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 18:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Question for WP:MILHIST[edit]

The article Milunka Savić describes the subject as "the most decorated female combatant in the history of warfare". Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) and I were discussing whether or not this is likely, and thought it best to ask members of the project for their opinions on the topic. Are their reliable source which uphold this assertion, or ones that say something to the contrary? Thanks in advance for all comments. 23 editor (talk) 04:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Anyone have a view here? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 14:32, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Cross-national comparisons are generally hard to do, how do you compare her with those Russian female snipers and pilots, several of whom I believe won the Hero of the Soviet Union, the highest Soviet medal for heroism? I'd be inclined to avoid the peacock phrase in general unless a RS has provided detailed documentation for such a statement.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:49, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
It also ignores the reality that prior to the more modern era there simply weren't "decorations" in the sense we understand them. I'd pull the phrase. Intothatdarkness 14:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Also overlooks the fact that throughout most of history women weren't part of the armed forces proper, so even if they did incredible things they were not necessarily decorated for them at the time. TomStar81 (Talk) 16:47, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
A similar discussion occurred a couple of years ago in the context of most decorated US member of an ethnic group. If one or more of the article's sources in Serbo-Croatian is a RS, I believe something like "[Source Names] have reported that Milunka Savić is the most decorated female in . . . (I'd limit the 'history of warfare' to something like modern history or recorded history) -- Joan of Arc and Boudica are part of history, but I doubt all awards or equivalents they earned are on record. I can see a weasel word objection to this proposal, but I don't think it is over the line if reporting what a RS said. I agree with Stormbird's comments on Soviet women. Comparing awards of Hero of the Soviet Union to Milunka's awards reminds me of past discussions of notability that raised the question whether one Medal of Honor is worth two Navy Crosses. Bottom line, though is that the assertion as made cannot be supported without some qualification. --Lineagegeek (talk) 22:17, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Kargil War[edit]

Request for comment on an RFC going at the talk page of Kargil war here, would be right to have neutral third party view Shrikanthv (talk) 09:17, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Foreign fighters[edit]

I just noticed that there is no article on the phenomenon of foreign fighters. Given that the concept has become a fairly pressing international concern (particularly in the context of "foreign terrorist fighters" participating in the conflict in Iraq and Syria), this seems like an area that's ripe for exploration. Is anyone interested in collaborating on such a project? TheBlueCanoe 01:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't the United States be "foreign fighters" in every conflict they've been involved in outside of the United States? Maybe narrow it down by conflict, like Foreign involvement in the Spanish Civil War. — Maile (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
We have the article on foreign volunteers, no? —  Cliftonian (talk)  17:39, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Pershing missile displays[edit]

I'm not happy with how Pershing missile displays is laid out. Are there better examples of how to do this? --21lima (talk) 12:45, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it's suitable article material at all. Any mileage in an AfD? Meanwhile I'll see if a tweak works on the layout. GraemeLeggett (talk) 05:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I am pretty much done with this one. Why do you think this might not be a worthwhile article? --21lima (talk) 00:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

MOS: Dates and Numbers discussion on Military dates[edit]

MOS: Dates and numbers - Military dates - This discussion has been going on for months. This is just the latest thread. Inasmuch as this would affect this project, you might be interested. There has been some discussion therein about changing all existing articles to one style or the other. — Maile (talk) 23:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I skimmed through that just to see, but don't really want to get involved. I'm not an expert here, but it seems to me that dates do not exist in a vacuum: if you use AP Style ranks, then you would use AP Style dates. See Dwight D. Eisenhower which uses Lt. Gen. instead of LTG. --21lima (talk) 00:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
When Eisenhower was a lieutenant general, LTG hadn't been thought of. After the Army "invented" the new abbreviations in the late sixties, it realized that they didn't necessarily make sense to the public and directed that the old forms be used when communicating with the people we work for.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 01:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project[edit]

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. This list of likely copyright violation can be categorized by wikiproject: control-F "WikiProject Military history" or similar projects of interest. --Lucas559 (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Islamic State (ISIS)[edit]

This WikiProject was recently created and I'm trying to determine if there is any level of interest in it. Right now, this WikiProject consists of just one editor. I'm notifying several related WikiProjects in order to gauge whether there is sufficient interest in this one that it should be allowed to grow or be deleted. Thank you. Liz Read! Talk! 17:06, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

  • @WP:MILHIST coordinators: Ordinarily this would be something we'd cover in a relevant task force, or special project, but at the moment it seems a little premature to do anything since the project itself is just barely off the ground and that one editor may grow. My opinion is that this was a bad idea, but from a Wikipedia perspective - and in particular taking into account both WP:BOLD and WP:AGF - perhaps the best course of action for now would be to adopt a wait and see approach. What do you guys think? TomStar81 (Talk) 19:34, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Wait and see. There are a few editors working in that space, but it remains to be seen if they will join a WikiProject. Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 23:07, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
  • From what I've seen, the editors working on ISIS warfare related topics are largely those who focus on all ongoing conflicts, so a project to coordinate things may not be necessary/taken up. But I agree with Peacemaker that this project should be given time to see whether people vote with their feet to join it. Nick-D (talk) 04:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps this should be posted to WP:COUNCIL proposals area? (to gauge support) -- (talk) 07:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The other thing I would suggest is forming a collaborative initiative within an existing Wikiproject, like WP:OMT (in Military History) or WP:BORA (in Yugoslavia). Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Kriegsmarine ships TA 10 and TA 11[edit]

What is the correct description of these ships. Were they torpedo boats or destroyers? One source I have describes them as the former, whilst another states that they were formerly the French destroyers Pomona and Iphegenia respectively. Mjroots (talk) 07:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

They were former French La Melpomène-class torpedo boats, seized by the Italians in 1942 and by the Germans in 1943. As the French also classed them as torpedo boats, it seems reasonable to call them torpedo boats (and were rather small for destroyers by WW2 standards anyway.Nigel Ish (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The Bugle needs you![edit]

As some of you may have noticed, the last few editions of this project's monthly newsletter The Bugle have been a bit thinner than normal. TomStar81 has been providing excellent articles on World War I, but the book reviews and other possible features have been relatively scarce. To help turn this situation around, I'd like to encourage members of the project to consider contributing reviews, opinion articles, short news stories, or whatever takes your fancy. For instance, the Wikimedia blog currently has a really interesting article in which Wehwalt discusses some of his favourite articles, and members of this project might be interested in doing the same. If you'd like to make a contribution, you can post it directly via the news room, or draft it elsewhere and contact myself or my co-editor Ian Rose to arrange for it to be published. Ian and I are also happy to answer any questions. Regards, Nick-D (talk) 07:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

New FA[edit]

On the basis that she served with the Royal Navy during WWII as HMT Girl Pat, I've tagged the FA Girl Pat (1935 trawler) article for MILHIST. The article needs expansion with details of her RN service and post-war service if anyone is able to do this. Mjroots (talk) 14:44, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Interesting. Does this not technically mean that the content is currently lacking in coverage (on our scale at least) and therefore not FA.... ;) GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I didn't tag it in order for it to be demoted. I'm sure you'll appreciate people put a lot of work into getting an article to FA. Let's put in a little more and improve it. Mjroots (talk) 15:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
All that aside, I suspect that there's not much publicly available info on her career with the RN so there's no reason to delist or conduct an RFA. Based on what I've seen there's virtually no ability to take an article on any wartime RN trawler to GA, much less FA. There's just no coverage of what these ships did during the war in RS.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
This book looks like a potential source if anyone has it. Mjroots (talk) 15:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The article states that she was an Admiralty requisition, so Part 1 may be the better choice. Mjroots (talk) 19:13, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
That's what I thought. I can see an MoS issue that need sorting. The history shows it slipped in post-promotion. Also the source list is non-standard so I suspect a tweak there won't damage the rating GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Guilty as charged on the MOS issue. Face-sad.svg Mjroots (talk) 17:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Lenton and Colledge's Warships of World War II (1973) has Girl Pat acquired in 1940, and serving as a minesweeper with the Auxiliary Patrol, but nothing else (not even a tonnage or pennant number).Nigel Ish (talk) 17:47, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
AFAIK, many naval trawlers retained their former fishing registrations. We now have an Official Number and tonnages. Mjroots (talk) 14:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Isn't an Admiralty document in The National Archives a primary source? Ranger Steve Talk 21:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Military career of George Washington[edit]

Please. PLEASE. This article is in desperate need of some heavy-duty copyediting (and has been tagged since 2007!!!). I simply cannot take it on right now. The latest is this content being repeatedly added by another editor. If it's what the reliable sources say, then fine, but to me it seems very not WP:NPOV and seems very essay-ish to me. See also that editor's remarks at the "POV problem" section where they refer to the editors (including myself) who reverted their edits as attempting "to bully and intimidate me by placing threatening 'warnings' on my talk page". I have left their content intact, tagged that section as being unreferenced (on that score they were absolutely right) but am asking folks from this WikiProject to step into the breach and fix this article up. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 16:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

This is being done by a vandalism only IP that removes all warnings on its talk page. The IP dates back to 2013 and is all vandalism. I've reported it. — Maile (talk) 16:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Thx for that. The article still needs some help...that IP did have a valid point, the one section has no sources. Shearonink (talk) 17:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


I have a question: if someone was a colonel during the Civil War, would that make them notable? I've got someone who already passes notability overall since he was part of the House of Delegates, but I only have one source for him so I'm a little antsy about creating a page based on ultimately one source. It'd be helpful if he passed on other criteria as well, like military service. Here's a page about him on Encyclopedia Virginia, if anyone wants to look at that. Tokyogirl79LVA (talk) 13:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Hmm... I misread slightly. Apparently it was for the Virginia Volunteers brigade and he was appointed as a colonel by the governor. It's still during the Civil War, but under slightly different circumstances sort of. Tokyogirl79LVA (talk) 13:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Armed priests and other anomalies that defy our categories[edit]

this article defies assignment to category, although for now I've added it to biography. Any suggestions? auntieruth (talk) 19:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Communications and Information Services Corps also defies our categories. It doesn't fit into any of the task forces (nations and regions), but I've put it in Scitech auntieruth (talk) 19:44, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
National militaries task force would be a better bet. All military units and formations can be characterised under that TF. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:57, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
As I said, I couldn't find a TF that was appropriate for the CCSC (it's Irish). The doesn't have a nation. auntieruth (talk) 15:26, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

denoting death outside action in infobox[edit]

The infobox in American-led intervention in Syria has a dagger next to King Abdullah Al Saud, but he didn't die in action:

Saudi Arabia King Abdullah Al Saud

How should this be represented? Is there an abbreviation for dying of natural causes while a leader is in command? -- Aronzak (talk) 15:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

new "Europeana 1914-18" images[edit]

Dear Wikiproject Mil-Hist,
I thought you'd like to know that there are now ~800 new items on Commons that have been imported from the collection. You can see the complete project here:
Commons:Commons:Europeana/Europeana 1914-1918 batch upload.
Because of the way I had to do this upload, these files are hand-selected to have a high likelihood of being usable in Wikipedia articles - It's not just a massive dump of pictures. Rather, it is items from Europeana 14-18 project that are BOTH freely licensed AND "encyclopedic". Also, because these are crowdsourced items, many of the descriptions are quite personal stories of the objects' original owner, and they can be used to illustrate 'general' topic articles. Just some examples...:

You can see on that project page that I've divided them into language groups - this is based on the language of the description (and therefore the object's owner), not based the originating country of the object - often items relating to France items will be in the "German" [language] section, and vice versa.
If you're interested in using these images, It would be great if you could help me categorise them on Commons and indicate a 'suggested articles' next to the images on the project page (to make it easier for other people to know where the image might be used on their language wikipedia). Sincerely, Wittylama 16:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Among other things, there's some nicely done medal\badge images - File:Alfons De Ceulaerde met 8 jaar legerdienst., item 5.jpg; File:German medal collection, item 39.jpg; File:German medal collection, item 35.jpg; File:Alfons De Ceulaerde met 8 jaar legerdienst., item 13.jpg - unfortunately mostly not identified in detail. Definitely worth a look. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:29, 30 June 2015 (UTC)