Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

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Prisoner-of-war camp[edit]

The article doesn't cover the death of millions of POWs during WWII. A disaster.Xx236 (talk) 07:02, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Not really disaster as wikipedia is a work in progress and is not complete, just find some reliable sources and consider due weight and add something to the article, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 07:15, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Now I understand that the main article is Prisoner of war. How to divide information between the two article?Xx236 (talk) 07:43, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Pretty straightforward. If it relates to a specific camp, or just to POWs in general. BTW, welcome back to Milhist. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:32, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Not at all straightforward, the two articles are too similar.Xx236 (talk) 10:01, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Prisoner-of-war camp is about several wars. Why these ones?
POW camps, e.g. in Germany, existed during several wars, see Łambinowice 1870-1945. The camps are the subject, not the wars. Xx236 (talk) 10:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

2015 Arras attack[edit]

I've not tagged the 2015 Arras attack article for this WP, as the link is rather tenuous. Will leave it to this project to decide whether or not it comes under your remit. Reports are that US Marines disarmed the attacker. Mjroots (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I don't think it qualifies. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 21:27, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Does the awarding of the Legion d'Honneur to the four that took down the assailant now mean the article falls under this WP? Mjroots (talk) 12:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
In this context, I believe the Legion of Honor might not be considered a military decoration. That being said, I would be quite surprised if the military members do not receive the Airman's Medal and the Navy and Marine Corps Medal for their actions. --Lineagegeek (talk) 22:39, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Frank Wead[edit]

I stumbled onto this by accident today while researching John Madison Hoskins, a flag officer who for some reason doesn't seem to have an article about him, but does have a movie: The Eternal Sea. So I checked the Wead article and there's a very enthusiastic and well-intentioned editor User:SteveMiamiBeach who's making a proper mess out of it. I'm so boggled by the insanely unencyclopedic approach to the subject, it's probably best that somebody else break the bad news to this guy and get the pagespace back under some semblance of control. Would somebody biographically inclined give this a look? I'm not kidding, it's a wasteland over there. BusterD (talk) 23:55, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

This guy has been working on this for six years and this is what we have? I just made a start at cleaning up the lead. There's a whole lot of useless stuff.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 00:46, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Some improvement, imho. I don't know the name of the "this needs help" template. Could someone add it?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 02:37, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
Also stumbled upon another "pageless" flag officer: Ralph Eugene Davison.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 18:27, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
I hate to say this, but Frank Wead is beginning to resemble an empty suit. The article as edited by Special:Contributions/SteveMiamiBeach seems to be "very dependent" on the words that appear on other web pages. Because of the number of web sites that robocopy Wikipedia, I can't tell which site had the information first. I'm going to keep paring back to what I can prove for a few more days, but I'm beginning to think "Spig" is a non-notable from a military perspective.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 19:55, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
He is, however, notable as a screenwriter and because The Wings of Eagles is about him. We've been stuck with much less interesting and well covered sources in our day. I appreciate you guys clearing out the dead wood. Hoskins has turned out to be a very notable story indeed. BusterD (talk) 21:50, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

USS Jarrett FFG 33[edit]

Had noticed that quite a few links to this Navy ship do not work anymore. Is it possible to edit them with new links for information relating to the info of the ship? JasonHockeyGuy (talk) 00:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@JasonHockeyGuy: The page seems to be there – USS Jarrett (FFG-33). Can you mention an example of a link that doesn't work anymore? Stanning (talk) 17:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
OK, I think I understand. I've changed two links to point to archived pages. Stanning (talk) 17:32, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Jeffrey Allen Sinclair[edit]

Please see Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 August 22 on the deletion of an article on a general officer. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:56, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I shudder to think of the repercussion’s this could have on the task force. This one deletion debate is going to overturn existing precedent wrt general and flag officer notability and single handedly make a huge number of articles about BGenerals deletable. Gbawden (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
It will certainly impact articles on living one-stars. That's unfortunate and I think BLP should be reviewed to distinguish between Internet rumor and events on the public record. Having said that, when I read the article I came away with the sense that I did not know what he had accomplished before or after being promoted to BG.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 12:50, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. The few deletionists here must be rubbing their hands in glee and preparing to use it as a precedent to destroy others' work as they love to do. Oh what joy to destroy instead of create! We're making Wikipedia better by deleting articles on senior officials, they cry! This attitude frankly makes me despair for Wikipedia sometimes. However, I dispute that a single AfD should destroy years of clear precedent and consensus at AfD. Anyone who attempts to use it as such is very much working against the spirit of Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:49, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
No one is saying a "one-star" isn't notable per se, they just need to have significant coverage. Hell the bloke that cleans out the public toilet in Aberdeen would be notable as long as he has been covered in multiple reliable sources which provide enough detail for a complete biography... Anotherclown (talk) 06:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
I think some of the above is an overreaction. The issue in this case was a "one event BLP"-type issue, not really that he was a one-star. And Anotherclown Wee Jock Poo-Pong McPlop would have the usual GNG issue with "multiple" sources, and perhaps the reliability of the source in question... Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 07:04, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
At least there is someone around here of the req'd vintage to get the reference (feel free to be offended by that)... Yes I agree re your assessment of that particular AFD (i.e. BLP1E was one of the main issues not his rank). So I doubt there will be wholesale AFDing of brigadier-generals anytime soon regardless of the result of the DRV. Anotherclown (talk) 07:29, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me for a somewhat off topic comment as I know this is beyond our control, but this is page is still appearing on Google over 6 days after it was deleted. Even further off, another Jeffrey Sinclair was the first station Commander on Babylon 5. :-/ 220 of Borg 13:30, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Shadow boxes[edit]

We don't consider blogs to be reliable sources. No mystery there. Several pages about the members of E Co, 2d Bn, 506th PIR link to shadow boxes displaying awards and other emblems associated with the subject of the page. One example is Speirs' shadowbox pertaining to Ronald Speirs. Is an unedited shadowbox any better than a blog?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Need some help with history of USN jet aviation[edit]

I did a foolish thing and watched an old movie (The Eternal Sea starring Sterling Hayden), and predictably, I got curious about the protagonist. The film reminds me much of John Wayne's The Wings of Eagles (but much more accurate, based on found sources). The fellow Hayden low keys didn't have an article about him and so I created one: John Hoskins (officer). There are not as many sources as I‍ '​d like, though there are some good ones already attached (including a Life Magazine cover story). What I'm looking for is an article or book relating Hoskins' enthusiasm for jet aircraft in carrier flight operations. The movie, produced and released while Hoskins was still a serving RADM, seems to indicate that Hoskins advocated reinforced decks and stronger catapults on carriers being built while WWII was ongoing, sensing the need for jet takeoffs and landings; in addition, the film indicates that Hoskins himself (peg-leg and all) flew takeoffs and landings along with an air group to validate the premise that carriers would be able to handle jet aircraft cycling through operations. Anybody know where I should be looking? What I've got right now dovetails with the premises of the film, and while I'm not using the movie as an RS, I suspect there's some truth to be found. Ideas? BusterD (talk) 05:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Well you can start with the Revolt of the Admirals, that covers some of the material referenced here. You can also look into the Essex-class aircraft carriers, Midway-class aircraft carriers, Forrestal-class aircraft carriers, and the issues and concerns with their construction vis-a-vis the aircraft of the day. I'll look into this when I get a moment and see if I can suggest anything else that would potentially help. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:53, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Tom. Appreciate your direction. I might actually have to read a book here... BusterD (talk) 02:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Jadwiga of Poland[edit]

All comments would be appreciated here. Thank you for your time. Borsoka (talk) 22:05, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

MILHIST membership category[edit]

FYI, there is a proposal at WP:AFC/C about creating a new category for members of WPMILHIST called Category:WikiProject Military history Members -- (talk) 04:16, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Is there? FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Look for the request filed by Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk · contribs) aka "KC Velaga ∞∞∞" -- (talk) 04:38, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

AfC submission[edit]

See Draft:Antoni Koper. Best, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 21:55, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Splitting Battle of Buna–Gona[edit]

G'day, all, there is currently a discussion on the talk page about the length of the Battle of Buna–Gona article, and a request for opinions about splitting the article. I've offered my opinion, but I think it would be best if a few others could chime in as this is not an easy decision and there may be better ways of doing it that what I'm suggesting, etc. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 23:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Battle of Britain Bunker[edit]

Just came from copy editing [1] and especially removing some 'promotional' text [2] from Battle of Britain Bunker. The page could use some attention from editors with some knowledge in this area. The page also has only one real footnote, though it has several potential sources in "Further reading". My first, edit re. "15 September 1940", is of concern as I am unsure what the original writer meant, regards, 220 of Borg 13:12, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Replacement of established Commons links by obscure {{Subject bar}} template?[edit]

We have long had a fairly stable style of linking to Commons (see WP:COMMONS) through the {{Commons category}} template.

There is also a template {{Subject bar}}. News to me too - I'd never heard of it until today. Seems it not too popular, it hit TfD for the second time recently Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_July_1#Template:Subject_bar, "A mere 1,477 transclusions in 4.8 million articles, in over four years, show that this template has failed to gain traction with the community;". Note also that this {{Subject bar}} template uses the Commons search mechanism (and its random return of synonyms) rather than linking simply and directly to a useful category.

There is now a push, at least on MILHIST topics, [3] [4] [5] to remove the existing Commons link template and replace it through the {{Subject bar}} style. I've no great aversion to {{Subject bar}} as a portal or navbox, it's yet more of that useless crud that accumulates at the bottom of pages rather than useful editing, but there is as yet no consensus to start removing the established, recognised and functional template.

Thoughts? Andy Dingley (talk) 20:41, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Getting rid of Commons category seems a bit of a bogus way to promote a novelty no-one knows or cares about.Keith-264 (talk) 20:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
The Commons category usually doesn't contribute much, as in most cases most or even all the available images are used in the article already. I tend to replace the {{Commons category}} with the subject bar when there are links to more than one project, like Wikinews, Wikiquote or Wikisource. I'm sure the {{Subject bar}} maintainers would be amenable to changing it to use the category rather than the search. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:06, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
If Commons "doesn't contribute much" (which I would dispute), then don't link it. The question here isn't if Commons should be linked, but how it should be linked.
At present, the standard Commons link box is recognisable to a large number of readers. This new navbox hides it away below a number of portal-like (i.e. subject navigation, orthogonal to Commons) links. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:49, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Note that possible edit warring on this matter how now provoked a discussion on ANI -here.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:51, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Copying my comment here as well. I want to point out that I introduced the {{tl:subject bar}} to introduce the relevant portals to the article, which were missing until my addition. Since the subject bar aggregates both portal inclusion as well as reference to commons (among many other useful links), it is only natural to integrate into one common presentation paradigm. The term "obscure" is POV. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I've now looked at Douglas MacArthur, which I think uses it to advantage. I'm entirely comfortable with it as an addition, rather than a replacement. In the areas in which I edit the Commons Category template is frequently used in its inline format at an appropriate section of the article, which I think works better than the standard template placed at the end. For end placement, it's a tossup for me. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:24, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
It's definitely less cluttered to have all the portal/sister project links in one area, but having it all at the bottom of the page seems suboptimal, especially when the sister project/commons templates are usually above the navigation boxes. My only other gripe with the subject template is that it doesn't have the the eyecatching addition of the article name in bold to draw attention to it (e.g. Find out more about Article on...") -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 02:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Can anyone identify this Australian Army special forces vehicle?[edit]

Anyone know what this is?

I photographed this vehicle at the Australian Defence Force Academy's open day, but didn't think to stop to find out what it actually is. Does anyone recognise the type? It was in the area advertising roles in the Army's special operations command, and is presumably some kind of SF reconnaissance vehicle. Nick-D (talk) 01:20, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Some kind of all terrain vehicle probably. I'd be guessing but I'd say it *might* be a two seat Polaris, like a heavily modified Ranger or a MRZR 2 (although I don't think its one of them), or something else in that class. Its a pluck though so I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Its not a Supacat variant as far as I can tell or a Tomcar (not sure if ADF is even doing trials with them anyway). Anotherclown (talk) 12:02, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Way off my normal range here but, based on internet visual comparison perhaps an ATV Prowler variant? Monstrelet (talk) 14:42, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Looks like a Prowler to me. See the LTATV variant. Parsecboy (talk) 16:48, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I think you guys are right. Bin my uninformed drivel above (I was basing it on media reports of additional acquisitions of Polaris by SOCOMD [6], can't see anything which mentions Prowler. The ADM article mentions upcoming trials of Dragor (another Polaris variant) so there is clearly ongoing work being done in this area and I wonder if its part of that? Obviously as SF kit goes this is fairly basic but given the close hold that is usually placed on such projects I'm more than a little surprised that I can't find anything in open sources about it and it turns up on display at ADFA). Anotherclown (talk) 20:01, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks a lot all - I've renamed the file to identify it as a Prowler Light Tactical All Terrain Vehicle (those photos look spot on). I was surprised by the large SOCOMD display at the open day, which included a serving commando to chat with and a Surveillance and Reconnaissance Vehicle to photograph. Nick-D (talk) 23:12, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

A-Class review for Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn al-Ash'ath needs attention[edit]

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn al-Ash'ath; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! AustralianRupert (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

A-Class review for August Meyszner needs attention[edit]

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for August Meyszner; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! AustralianRupert (talk) 02:07, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

WWII at sea question[edit]

Does anyone know of articles which might have maps of minefields around the UK, particularly in the English Channel 1939–1940? I can't find any, thanks Keith-264 (talk) 07:49, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Page 97 of the British official history (which is in the public domain, and online here has a map which seems to be exactly what you're looking for :) Nick-D (talk) 08:11, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
'Tis true but I'm looking for a Wiki article.Keith-264 (talk) 08:33, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
What's the context? I note that Dover Command is a red link... Nick-D (talk) 10:10, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I was toying with the idea of illustrating the Dover Barrage on the Boulogne and Calais '40 pages or perhaps elsewhere in the 1940 articles. The map's public domain now isn't it?Keith-264 (talk) 10:28, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes it is. Nick-D (talk) 11:38, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Anachronistic flags on civil war unit articles[edit]

I just noticed a potential problem and was wondering if there's anything on this in an MOS or at least general consensus about it: American Civil War state unit articles commonly use the modern State flag, ie 17th Michigan Volunteer Infantry Regiment. Problem is, most modern state flags were 20th century creations (ie the Michigan flag was only adopted in 1911). However, if you remove them, the B5 criteria would be called into question since that is often the only image on the article. Am I simply overthinking this? Gecko G (talk) 19:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

It "shouldn't" affect B5 status as this refers to appropriate items such as images - if a flag is anachronistic then it is clearly not appropriate.Nigel Ish (talk) 19:24, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, and the infobox also meets the requirement for B5. Parsecboy (talk) 21:08, 30 August 2015 (UTC)