Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mongols
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Reasons for the 1242 withdrawal from Hungary
I notice that just about every Mongol-related page, from "Batu Khan" to "Mongol invasion of Europe", blames the withdrawal of Mongol forces from central Europe on the death of Ogedei Khan. He died in December of 1241; the Mongols withdrew from Hungary in March of 1242. Supposedly, Batu had to evacuate from central Europe to participate in the kurultai that had just been called. A lot of historians go with this explanation as well. However, I contend that this explanation doesn't actually fit with the established evidence. An in-depth analysis as to why can be found in the thesis "Deep Ditches and Well-built Walls:", by Lindsay Stephen Pow, from the UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY, on pages 12 to 24. She uses a lot of in-line citations, particularly Rashid al-Din's Successors. But, to sum it up:
- The only primary source that credits the kurultai as the reason for their withdrawal is Carpini, an outside observer who is proven wrong on several other details of that event (e.g. the assertion that Ogedei was poisoned).
- Rashid Al-Din, who actually had inside Mongol sources and was working for the Mongols (as a high level minister, no less), states that they didn't even know about Ogedei's death when they started their withdrawal.
- The official Mongol history, the Yuanshi, states (in Subutai's bio) that the kurultai was called in 1243, not 1242.
- Rashid and Rogerius both describe the Mongols as moving at a snail's pace rather than rushing back to Mongolia. They took a couple years to wander around their territory, hunt refugees, and put down some rebellions in the Caucasus. Similarly, neither of these chroniclers mention the Mongols talking about Ogedei's death.
- Military operations continued in the west outside of Hungary. They invade Anatolia from 1241 to 1244. They put down rebels in southern Russia in late 1242. They invaded Syria in 1243. Et cetera. Campaigns were also launched against the Song in 1242 and 1245, again without a khan in charge of the empire. The idea that the Mongols needed to suspend an entire campaign (in this case, their supposed thrust into western Europe) when a new khan needed to be chosen isn't supported by what actually happened.
- On top of the Mongol sources directly stating that they didn't withdraw because of Ogedei's death, the logistics involved support this idea. A courier would have to be dispatched immediately, and make the journey from Mongolia to western Hungary in just 3 months, in the middle of the winter, through the least developed parts of the Mongol Empire. William of Rubruck, in a Mongol party that changed horses 2 or 3 times a day and rode from day to night as fast as possible, took four months to reach Mongolia from Batu's camp on the Volga (i.e., much closer to Mongolia than western Hungary was). Carpini's party took 5 months to go from Kiev to Mongolia, as well. And they didn't travel in the middle of the winter.
I think the word of Rashid in particular is hard to dispute, especially since the only conflicting primary source is Carpini, who himself just has the word of one unnamed Mongol a few years after the withdrawal.--Nihlus1 (talk) 08:00, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
WikiProject Mongolia or WikiProject Asia / Mongolia
During my edits to or creation of other articles I have found that there currently in fact lacks a wiki project dedicated to Mongolia. When I created new articles related to Mongols and put talk headers in their talk pages, I have put the WikiProject Mongols banner many times in these talk pages, but when it is specific to Mongolia, I have noticed that there in fact lacks something. WikiProject Mongols is broad, which covers the Mongol-related topics from Asia to Europe (e.g. the vast Mongol Empire), instead of specifically either the Mongolian steppe or the modern state of Mongolia. So I think it would be a good idea to have a separate WikiProject Mongolia or WikiProject Asia / Mongolia to specifically cover Mongolia-related topics. The existing WikiProject Mongols will mostly be used to cover the Mongols as an ethnic group, which I think should probably fall under the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups. It will also cover historical Mongol-related topics such as various Mongol khanates like the Dzungar Khanate and Khoshut Khanate, but some topics such as the Mandarin Chinese may not necessarily be covered by WP Mongols, even though it is one of the official languages of Inner Mongolia. On the other hand, WikiProject Mongolia may fall under both WP Asia and WP Mongols, as Mongolia is a Mongol-majority country. Thanks for consideration. --Cartakes (talk) 16:27, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Mongolian silver ingot
Guidance for a Draft Article: Gobi Corporation
Hi there! I am a Wikipedia beginner. Visited Mongolia a few times for business and leisure and got excited with the Mongolian culture and way of life. I started thinking how I could contribute to the Mongolian culture on Wikipedia and was reading the Wikipedia article on the Economy of Mongolia []. I noticed a mention of the Gobi Cashmere Company as being a major subject of the Mongolian Economy but found not such article on the Wikipedia. I decided this is a great way subject to cover and start my Wikipedia contribution. So I created this Draft article. As you will see I was first advised to add more links and citations, which I did, although I might still miss the standards of correct formatting Wikipedia articles. Then after I re-submitted the article draft, it was nominated for Speedy deletion without any discussion and shortly after deleted. So I decided to address the WikiProjectMongols in search of support to this article: Do you believe this is an important subject to cover and link it to the Economy of Mongolia? If you do so, can we collaborate so that I will edit the article (guidance appreciated) and the article will ultimately be published? Yudmik (talk) 18:28, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
Nayan (Mongol Prince)
On Talk:Nayan (Mongol Prince) there is discussion about the lack of links to the Chinese and Japanese articles on him. The Japanese article ナヤン has links to the Chinese and English articles but the English article is not linked. Is it possible to put this right?--Johnsoniensis (talk) 13:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Hi, I'm from Russian Wikipedia and I want to solve one problem.
There is Mongolian wrestler Chimedbazaryn Damdinsharav, he won the bronze medal in the men's Freestyle Flyweight at Olympic-1968. This name, for example: here. But in official report of Olympic-1968 he is named like Sukhbaatar, Surenjav, in data at unitedworldwrestling.com Suchebator, Surenjav. It seems like some mistake. Who is Sukhbaatar, Surenjav (Suchebator, Surenjav)? Why this error had been happened? Someone who has name S.Surenjav is noted in this article, but I do not understand what link is between Chimedbazaryn Damdinsharav with S.Surenjav. And something is here, maybe there is any explanation? I have tried Google-translator, maybe Suchebator, Surenjav was an eligible athlete, but Chimedbazaryn Damdinsharav substituted him?
But moreover! Identical problem is Tömöriin Artag, he won the bronze medal in the men's Freestyle Welterweight at Olympic-1968. At unitedworldwrestling.com there is Purev, Dagvasuren, alike in official report. More confusion: One Püreviin Dagvasüren is named as Mongolian judoka. Here is something about this problem.
Has someone any explanation to this?