Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport

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Santino Ferrucci[edit]

Rather than being bold, I'm raising this for discussion here. Santino Ferrucci has been banned from driving for the next two meetings / four races. Under his complete Formula 2 results, I feel it appropriate that these races are annotated with BAN in white on a black background. That he has been sacked from his team does not, IMHO, override the fact that he is banned. Mjroots (talk) 08:26, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

I'd say it has to just be left blank - he's banned for the next 4 races, not his next 4 races, and he's not entering those races. -mattbuck (Talk) 13:34, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Mattbuck - do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that if "Foo Racing Team" offer Ferrucci a drive, then he will still be banned for the first four races after signing for them?
Reality is that his driving career is effectively over, isn't it? Mjroots (talk) 13:37, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
To be consistent with other articles - for example Romain Grosjean's ban in 2012 - they should be left blank. Boothy m (talk) 15:47, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
Mattbuck is correct. If the driver wasn't even entered to the races, he hasn't any relation to the races. So the cells definitely should be left blank. Corvus tristis (talk) 02:54, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
If he's banned from even entering, why is he even on the page(s) in question? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 20:46, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
@Trekphiler: - I meant Ferrucci's article, not any other. Mjroots (talk) 06:06, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
As a general rule of thumb, you should not try to use tables to explain anything complex. Just the absolute basics. The tables record the race results. If Ferucci is banned from a race then there is no result. A ban is merely the reason for the lack of results. This is the difference between DNF and say ENG for engine failure, or ACC for accident or MPU for motive power unit or SAT for unexpected satellite falling from orbit. The tables do not record the method or mode of a retirement, merely that the driver did not finish. If there is notability attached to the retirement than it should be written about in sentences in the appropriate article. Tables don't tell stories, they compile statistics into a matrix. --Falcadore (talk) 09:05, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Predictions in the entry list[edit]

Quintinohthree without valid reason adds uncertain information to 2019 IndyCar Series. I can somehow accept interpretation that "All" in the rounds section means that driver under contract to compete the whole season despite that is against WP:MOTOR convention, as in encyclopedia we should reflect facts. I.e. Robert Wickens, who was obligated to compete in the all races of the 2018 season didn't actually compete in all of them. So what it was? Yes, unfulfilled prediction. "TBA, 6-10 races" in the Harvey's line in looks completely non-encyclopedic to. My suggestion is to completely remove round column until the list of the participants for the first round will be announced. Corvus tristis (talk) 03:43, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you. I have removed that column I couple of times, but that user keep reinstating it. No matter how you turn it, it's speculation. It's not certain in any way that these drivers will enter all these races. For instance, Dario Franchitti in 2013, James Hinchcliffe in 2015 and Sebastien Bourdais in 2017 were all contracted to appear in all races, but Franchitti missed the last race (and in fact never raced again), Hinchcliffe only did five, and Bourdais missed a handful. This column thus really hasn't any value right now. I really can't see why we should deviate from standard WP:MOTOR practice.Tvx1 14:06, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I disagree that I have added uncertain information to 2019 IndyCar Series. The specific instance mentioned is of an entry that has been confirmed will enter 6 rounds, all named, and may enter up to 10 rounds, but no more, all named also. This is information gathered from the same reference used to justify its inclusion in the entries table, and is therefore just as certain as the inclusion of the entry in the table. The logic that is used to justify removing the rounds column in this fashion should conclude further that the entire entries table should be removed. Indeed, this logic further suggests that calendar tables should likewise be removed. If standard WP:MOTOR policy allows the entries table to exist at all prior to the first round of the season, then it is clear to me that WP:MOTOR policy violates WP:CRYSTALL. I have yet to even see an attempt to justiy this. A more complete discussion is available on Talk:2019 IndyCar Series. Quintinohthree (talk) 18:24, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
It seems you just don't understand Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. These other sections you claim should be removed are actually perfectly fine. We can verify that the listed drivers and races have a contract to appear in the 2019 season. However we can't no verify at this moment that they will enter specific rounds, let alone that they have been entered (thus it fails WP:Verify), and we equally cannot assure that they will enter these rounds (thus it fails WP:CRYSTALL). We thus simply cannot include that column at this time because it is add odds with some of Wikipedia's major policies. Now stop making such a drama because it's perfectly possible to have an article about the subject WITHOUT a rounds column in that table.Tvx1 19:51, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
Quintinohthree, you should be aware that the preferred method of describing anything in wikipedia is text, not tables? The first resort of explaining complex information is absolutely not increasingly complicated tables. One of the worst things you can do with a table is have a "notes" column because you can not explain everything you wish to do so.
If it can not be explained easily and very simply then it does not belong in a table in the first place. And that is before you even get to verification. --Falcadore (talk) 09:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I would suggest, since the year, let slone the season, 2019 hasn't started yet, any results table is extraordinarily premature, unless you're visiting from the 24th Century. Captain Braxton we hear you 23:56, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
This discussion doesn't deal with results tables, but with a rounds column in a teams and drivers table.Tvx1 14:12, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Racing under the radar?[edit]

I just came across what looks like a glitch in the {{Class of Auto racing}} template. I looked at the "what links here" pages for Altered & Top Gas, & found neither on the other's page; Top Fuel & Top Alcohol, by contrast, are. While not really a crisis, I wonder if there's a coding or formatting error somewhere that might be causing other problems. (Health warning: yes, I created both pages; no, I don't care if this is reducing traffic on them.) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 13:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

For me, Altered (drag racing) shows up on the "What links here" for Top Gas and vice versa. Are they still not showing up for you? DH85868993 (talk) 09:57, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Still not on the list, no. It could be an issue with my browser, & TBH, IDK how big a problem it really is. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 13:00, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Using template:small without input parameters[edit]

We've added empty cells of {{small}} to driver's articles for their upcoming races of 2018 season. Recently Frietjes (talk · contribs) have been removing them to clear Category:Pages using small with an empty input parameter. What's your view on this? I personally don't see a point to remove those, as they will get filled along the season. --Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:37, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I also do not see the point in removing. As you say, they will get filled in when the results occur and removed if the driver doesn't compete in that particular race or we know they won't be competing. An example of this was when they were removed from Rob Collard's results when we knew he would not be competing at Rockingham and Knockhill due to injury. It also saves time when inputting the results as you don't have to copy and paste them for each race. The same can be said for the blank style=background colour, you can just input the colour code quickly or delete when applicable. RewF12012 (talk) 08:28, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

List of motorsports people by nickname[edit]

A discussion regarding the selection criteria for List of motorsports people by nickname is taking place at Talk:List of motorsports people by nickname#Selection criteria for this list. Your input is welcomed. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Dating racers[edit]

In creating the Carl Olson page, I had access to the dates of each event, but chose not to include them all, because it seemed like overkill. Is it? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 17:21, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

I think so. I inspected a small random sample of other articles in Category:Dragster drivers and none of them seemed to include dates. DH85868993 (talk) 10:26, 24 September 2018 (UTC)
Thx. That saves me having to fix it. :D TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 18:32, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Tuesday the Eliminator[edit]

I've come across a conflict between sources here I can't resolve. I've got a presumably reliable ref saying one thing, another page (also at saying something else, & a third page (not, IMO, tops in completeness) mentioning neither contestant. Has anybody got better sources that can clear this up? If so... I'm bringing it here in hope of attracting more possible sources than the page itself (which appears to be getting little traffic). Luke La Duke play the news, skip the blues 14:29, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Year without the cat?[edit]

I notice the Year in Motorsports pages only include annual events not part of a series. So where does someone find annual events that are, exactly? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 09:14, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Tom Pryce nationality[edit]

There is a discussion concerning Tom Pryce, a featured article associated with this project, taking place at Talk:Tom Pryce#Nationality in infobox for those interested. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:03, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

An Rfc at WP:Formula One concerning this topic, has commenced. GoodDay (talk) 19:26, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

British racers[edit]

The following section is transcluded from WT:F1 because the RFC applies to motorsport in general. Please leave any comments there

Due to an ongoing discussion at Tom Pryce, I'm seeking a consensus (or lack there of) for making an exemption for British racers' infoboxes.

Should we have it in the infoboxes of British racers - nationalities & flags of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales? See Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 16:18, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

No, i.e. Oppose. They never raced in F1 under those flags. --Marbe166 (talk) 17:21, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Oppose. This would just create unnecessary confusion. There is no guideline, let alone policy, explicitly requesting this. The FIA follows legal nationalities of sovereign states and we should reflect that. For UK drivers with substantial pride over their ethnic "nationality", it can detailed in the prose and even in the lead. However, there are also many drivers like Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, Damon Hill, etc who never mentioned anything about their British sub-nationalities. Adding a second nationality field in their infoboxes would be plainly ridiculous. It would also be confusing with drivers, like Bertrand Gachot, who actually have represented different nationalities at different points in their careers. On a side note, I don't believe this is an issue exclusive to F1. The FIA uses nationalities of sovereign states in all motor racing classes it governs. So do the FIM. Therefore, I believe it would have been better if this were raised at WT:MOTOR, not here.Tvx1 18:44, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
I won't object to creating a mirror of this RFC at WT:MOTOR. If you know how to do that? go for it. GoodDay (talk) 18:50, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Maybe you could transclude this section there.Tvx1 21:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
I don't know how to do that. GoodDay (talk) 21:54, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
That’s why I included a link in my previous post.Tvx1 22:16, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm not much of a techno type. It's best that you do the deed. GoodDay (talk) 22:32, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 Done. Really not difficult. But you're not going to learn it like this.Tvx1 16:16, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
Oppose for reasons cited here, essentially just create a separate entry -- so is that "done" and this discussion closed and resolved? Please clarify, because there is a lot of discussion that still followed here. Gratefully Aboudaqn (talk) 14:36, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
Just use prose to properly explain the issue and avoid corrupting the purpose of a Formula One specific infobox/template. It is not difficult. --Falcadore (talk) 19:14, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
I am also quite concerned about the precedent that this could then be used by poponents of American states, Canadian provinces, English counties, French departments and so on. --Falcadore (talk) 19:17, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, Belgian regions springs to mind as well. Stoffel Vandoorne could become a Flemish driver and Jacky Ickx a Brussels driver.Tvx1 22:43, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
Presumably, because you raise it in this project, you mean in the "Infobox F1 driver" infobox, and I would say no to that as that is for the nationality used to get the racing licence, which for the nations of the UK you mention, would generally be British. However, as with the case in the "Tom Pryce" article, that must never get in the way of using the person's own identified nationality (if reliably sourced and given due weight) in the associated "Infobox person" template, where by-the-way and per WP:FLAGCRUFT, would not be accompanied with a flag. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:11, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
You've presumed wrong. This RFC is for the entire infobox of British F1 racers. Thus my reason for making this a bio matter as well as car racing. GoodDay (talk) 21:35, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
As has been explained very clearly to you, the fact that the infobox is coded as two nested infoboxes is NOT clear to the readers in any way. That is editor knowledge only. There is nothing in the infobox as seen in the article has no visible distinction between a "person infobox" and a "F1 driver infobox". Therefore adding a second nationality field nearby would be utterly confusing. In fact, I don't even know why the "Infobox person" part is there in the coding. It can be produced identically using just the "Infobox F1 Driver" template. Moreover, the more I look at other articles, the more it looks like Tom Pryce's article was an exception in using the Infobox Person coding. Others like Lewis Hamilton, John Watson, Jim Clark and many others don't have that coding at all.Tvx1 12:53, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure I remember a discussion like this previously about another British driver's nationality (can't remember who though). Had a look at some Scottish drivers and it's been brought up on the talk pages of David Coulthard, Dario Franchitti, Colin McRae and Jackie Stewart - but all the Scottish F1 drivers have British as their nationality in the infobox, beside the link to the Super Licence page. It should stay that way with all of the British drivers. Boothy m (talk) 00:20, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose as with most sports, the sporting nationality of an F1 driver is the only one that matters. Which is why Max Verstappen is listed as Dutch, despite being born in Belgium, and Nico Rosberg being listed as German, despite being half-Finnish. All F1 drivers competed under British flag, not the English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish flags, and so that flag is of little importance. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:03, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Just to note that, and to avoid confusion, Tvx1 has, despite my personal request to them, removed the "infobox person" template from the Tom Price article even though this discussion is still ongoing. That template had been in the article for 11 months, and its presence is mentioned in this discussion. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:11, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

This entire section is a crass exercise in discussion forking. This issue does raise good questions, but the discussion already well underway at the Tom Pryce page is a perfectly fine venue for working these out. The Pryce situation is a very nicely encapsulated exemplar of the issues raised and can easily be used as a template once things have been thoroughly thrashed out there. Please don't waste people's time by requiring that they say everything twice. Pyrope 12:57, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Agree with having Nationality = Welsh in the Biog Infobox, and 'Sporting Code' + Union Jack F1 Infobox, as he certainly did drive for Britain / uk. This is the 'compromise' refered to on the Pryce Talk page.
Agree with Pyrope that this is a fork. Sian EJ (talk) 15:54, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
As has been explained both here and at Tom Pryce's talk page, the readers only see one infobox, not two, even if it's code as two nested ones. That difference is not clear and thus it creates confusion. It's obvious that those supporting the inclusion of Welsh in the infobox are clinging desperately to that "infobox person" code because it's the only argument they have in favor of their stance. And including code solely for this purpose solely in that article is just poor editorial practice.Tvx1 19:55, 25 October 2018 (UTC)
Agree. 'Poor editorial practice' (User:Tvx) is the sensoring of information about the person. You suggest that a clear difference is made between the person and the driver in the infobox. @Pelmeen10: suggested something similar on Pryce's Talk page. It can be done simply by stating:
Nationality = Welsh
Licence / Passport / Citizenship = British.
but to sensor one or the other in the infobox equates to bias and providing the reader with mis-information. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 05:12, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Your accusations are utterly hilarious. Firstly because his Welshness is celebrated throughout the article. Secondly, because you are apparently unable to even spell censorship. Nothing is being censored here. Stop seeing this a personal thing.Tvx1 20:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Oppose I cannot see how it is censoring to leave out irrelevant information. Wales is not a nation state, so it is ridiculous to enter "Welsh" under nationality. There is no bias there, it is simply the fact of the matter. There might be Welsh people who do not like that fact (and plenty of Scottish or Catalan ones at that), but Wikipedia is not the place to fight out those arguments. Zwerg Nase (talk) 19:12, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Oppose Just noticed this. There is no reason to have an Infobox person because there's effectively nothing in it. It would only exist to make a point. The F1 infobox suffices in all cases. Where two nationalities exist (Romain Grosjean, Nico Rosberg) then the sporting nationality (or whatever term you choose to use) goes in the infobox, and any other nationalities are explained in the prose, usually the lead. Once we start having dual or supposed "preferred" nationalities in the infobox, we risk confusing the reader and creating a precedent for relative chaos across F1 driver articles. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:30, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Neutral - I've no objections to making an exemption for Tom Pryce if such an exemption includes all British racers. I do oppose the 'self-identification' argument for these articles. The F1 should be the decider of racers nationality. GoodDay (talk) 14:51, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Oppose The flag is likely to be taken as nation of birth, which it isn't (necessarily), & that's likely to create confusion. There's enough ignorance out there now; let's not add to it. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 16:56, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Inclusion of racing cars in Template:Lotus[edit]

I've started a discussion regarding the continued inclusion of racing cars in Template:Lotus. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the discussion. (I've advertised the discussion here because I wasn't sure how may people are watching the template). DH85868993 (talk) 21:02, 8 November 2018 (UTC)