Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mountains

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Silvretta panorama from the Ochsenkopf

Question that is of interest to this WikiProject on the sources noticeboard[edit]

Here, about the reliability of a book used as an Andes-related source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:57, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Template help and conversion of WikiProject Mountains of the Alps to a task force[edit]

Hi. We're trying to display a table of articles by class and importance at the sub-project Wikipedia:WikiProject Mountains of the Alps. I'm no expert, but I think this needs Template:WikiProject Mountains to be modified with the parameter "Alps=yes/no", which can then be picked up by the table template. Can anyone help? Bermicourt (talk) 19:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Check out the box on the right of the second row at Template:WikiProject_Mountains/testcases. Is that what you wanted? You need a non-empty |alps= field, and can supply |alps-importance= to provide an Alpine-specific importance (if you like that, or we can remove it). —hike395 (talk) 03:54, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Hike, the table will need both parameters to make it work and I think that's useful. The Alps project can then start populating the templates for Alpine peaks which, hopefully, will then reflect in the table. --Bermicourt (talk) 12:51, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Absolutely no objection from me. As I already said, I fully support the conversion of the project Mountains of the Alps into a task force of this project. Are we going to include all the articles in category:Alps or only category:Mountains of the Alps? I think this project includes de facto other things such as passes, ranges, geology etc...(not always consistently though, see for instance Talk:Geology of the Alps and Talk:Geology of the Himalaya). ZachG (Talk) 17:10, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Good point. It probably makes sense to restrict it to mountain articles at least initially because a) it's not contentions and b) it makes the task simpler. Downstream, if there's consensus, we can expand it. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:03, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Yes check.svg Done I modified the live {{WikiProject Mountains}} template to take |alps= and |alps-importance=. So, you should be good to go! —hike395 (talk) 07:01, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Ok, only mountains for now. So, is it ok now to officially convert Mountains of the Alps project into a task force by moving it to Wikipedia:WikiProject Mountains/Alps? I'm also not sure about the talk page, but it seems to me that it would be counterproductive to split discussions in Alps/Non-Alps given the size of our community (about one thread per year since 2009). What do you (members of both projects) think? ZachG (Talk) 15:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm inclined to leave it for now and get on with the work in hand first. Not least because this project might go in a different direction from its parent in due course e.g. it may become focussed on the Alps as a region, rather than just the mountains... who knows? Meanwhile we have plenty on our plate getting the mountains added to the category, and creating and improving new ones. Bermicourt (talk) 16:27, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I made a bot request to update the talk pages and since I'm not familiar with the procedure you may want have a look there (Wikipedia:Bot requests#WikiProject Mountains banner update). Hopefully within a few weeks the table will be fully populated (2848 articles in total). ZachG (Talk) 18:58, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

That sounds sensible - thanks. --Bermicourt (talk) 20:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed primary topic for Southern Alps: New Zealand[edit]

I have proposed that the primary topic for the disambiguation page Southern Alps is Southern Alps (New Zealand): the latter should move to the former. Feel free to join in the discussion at Talk:Southern Alps (New Zealand)#Requested move 29 November 2015. Thanks! —hike395 (talk) 20:27, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed disambiguation of Southern Alps (New Zealand) and Southern Alps (Europe)[edit]

The above move request was closed within a day as a "technical closure". The result is that, currently, Southern Alps is an article about a mountain range in New Zealand and Southern Alps (Europe) is about the range in the south of the Alps. So there is a move request to move the former to Southern Alps (New Zealand) and make Southern Alps the disambiguation page. See Talk:Southern Alps#Requested move 30 November 2015. Bermicourt (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Article for deletion[edit]

The article on the Fritz Pflaum Hut, a mountain hut in the Austrian Alps run by the German Alpine Club, has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fritz Pflaum Hut. The outcome of this may decide the fate of all similar Alpine hut articles. --Bermicourt (talk) 12:09, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Level Mountain at GAN[edit]

Level Mountain is currently a good article nominee if anyone is interested in reviewing it. Volcanoguy 09:44, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

List of mountains of vs List of mountains in[edit]

Hello folks. I think it is high time we set a standard here. Personally, since mountains cannot move, I think we should set "List of mountains of" as the standard (as with rivers, etc). Therefore, I propose the said renames, and also to delete any the redirects so that it doesn't show up on search suggestions and also turns red on accidental linking of "mountains in" (which could lead to more people wrongly thinking "mountains in" is okay)... Comments? Rehman 12:04, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

This is partly a style issue. AFAICS Americans tend to favo(u)r "Mountains of" etc. while others tend to be quite happy with "Mountains in". So if a standard is agreed, the other option should continue to be a redirect. Incidentally google books returns 905,000 hits for the former and 533,000 hits for the latter, so both are clearly in common use and if we choose one over the other it's probably a "convention" rather than a "standard". --Bermicourt (talk) 21:41, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
No offence intended to anyone, but just as with "List of power stations" and "List of dams and reservoirs" (both of which were recently standardized across Wikipedia, without any hard feelings), I think we should choose one to ensure proper functionality. Our search function will automatically suggest the right link anyways, so there is no real impact. We could simply take a vote... Rehman 03:39, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Lists of lakes are following the in convenction, even for United States (see for instance List of lakes in Indiana).--Pampuco (talk) 18:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Template:Ultras of Europe[edit]

Hello everibody. I opened this issue. Any opinion about it?--Pampuco (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2016 (UTC).

Name of Andean mountains[edit]

I have come across a series of mountains, most of them ancient (eroded and presumably extinct) volcanoes, located in Bolivia whose name have an indigenous spelling. These mountains have also a Spanish name. The question is should their name be in indigeous language or in Spanish? The pages are far too many to be addressed one by one. They are grouped in:

Note that Spanish name does not usually include the letters k, w or apostrophes. In these articles where there is little written in English I see that the usage of Indigenous vs Spanish names should be resolved at large here. Dentren | Talk 20:10, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Since Spanish is the official and predominant language of Bolivia, it surely makes sense to use the Spanish name as the article title. Otherwise, it looks like we're pushing some political agenda which is not the purpose of Wikipedia. Obviously names in other recognised Bolivian languages can be included in the lede and as redirects. --Bermicourt (talk) 21:10, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
I can't speak of articles I don't write (-->those without several detailed sources I can readily identify as reliable) but I always use the name(s) used most frequently in science journals (<--Most articles I write are about volcanoes and are sourced to that stuff) which tend to be Spanish.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

People who read these posts might get a wrong impression and come to the wrong conclusions. The posts suggest that there are many mountains in the three categories mentioned above with indigenous names and spellings although they also have a Spanish name and are better known by that name, and that this is inconsistent with the fact that Spanish is "the" official and predominant language in Bolivia. And that besides pages about mountains with Spanish names have been moved in favor of the indigenous names.

Presently none of the names mentioned in the three categories has a Spanish name (like "Cerro Blanco" for instance), but hopefully there are a lot of them to come. All the names are either Aymara or Quechua, both are official languages in Bolivia like all the indigenous languages. The following compilation shows the number of people belonging to the recognized group of speakers (Aymara (ay), Quechua (qu), Spanish (es)) in the departments you mentioned (source :enWP as of today):

You see that the indigenous languages may also be predominant. The reason that you can communicate with the residents in Spanish is that they are often bilingual and can speak Spanish, a foreign language for them, too.

The spellings of the toponyms used in the three categories are almost without exception based on publications which are supported by the Ministry of Education (dictionaries etc., see refs in the articles). The toponyms with Aymara and Quechua background taken from Spanish websites are mostly wrong. The Bolivian government also uses correct spellings of Aymara toponyms in recent laws.

The Bolivian government and institutions make great efforts to improve the situation of the indigenous population and their rights (see recent laws and publications). By the way, it is settled by law that the indigenous people may use the toponyms of their own language. It is counterproductive and rather rude to ignore the spellings of these languages. Quechua as a native language (8,000 000 million speakers) is spoken by about as many people as Swedish. Do we ignore the Swedish spelling? Is it "politically correct" to go on ignoring that Aymara and Quechua are languages which want to be spelled correctly? Are the Aymara and Quechua people and their feelings unimportant? It would be good to support the efforts of the governments.

It is reasonable to use the correct Aymara and Quechua spellings of the toponyms as page names to prevent a chaos here. An example: Wila Qullu means "red mountain" in Aymara (wila = red, qullu = mountain). The names you will find in the sources (maps) originate from times where Aymara and Quechua were not official languages and where relevant dictionaries were not available yet: Huila Kkollu, Huilacollo, Vila Kkollu, Vilacollo, Wila Collu, Wila Khollu, Wila Kkollu, Wila Kollu, Wila Qollu, Wilacollo, Wilacolo, Wilakhollu, Wilakkollu. The words have been massacred in various ways. If you say that this is the "Spanish" name, would you also agree if I say that rett mountan, redd montane, rad moundayne or rat munhdain is the appropriate and correct English term? Please, mind that "Wila Qullu" is not "the Aymara spelling of Huila Kkollu" where Huila Kkollu is the Spanish spelling (Of what? Of an Aymara word? Do we have French or Portuguese spellings of English?), but that "Wila Qullu" is correct Aymara, just like "red mountain" is correct English. - It is also very popular to keep the Spanish word cerro (mountain or hill) in the page names of mountains with indigenous names in South America. Cerro Huila Kkollu sound like "mountain red mountain" to me. Spanish, however, does not belong to the indigenous names.

If you assume that one of the wrong spellings like Wila Kkollu is the "correct official spelling" which you want to take for your page name, because you found it in a map of the INE, don't be surprised if you find another spelling like Wila Khollu in a map of the IGM 1:50,000 and again Wila Kkollu in a map of another scale for instance. That's "normal". Once or twice I saw three different spellings for one Aymara or Quechua toponym in one publication by the government. Two different spellings is more frequent. For one single mountain you may find even more spellings, example Qiwllarahu ("gull mountain") in Peru: Caullaraju (probably a broken word, not identifiable as Quechua), Jeulla Rajo, Jeulla Raju, Queulla Raju, Queullaraju. The worst term, Caullaraju, seems to be the most popular one. Often the names are obviously broken, but never ever corrected, letters are missing or confused (a-o-u, a-e, l-j, l-t etc). There is a mountain in Peru named Jiwaña, also named Coverane, Coverane Gihuana, Gihuana or Koverane. That was difficult until I saw that the river and the plain near the mountain were labelled Jihuaña which was identifiable as Jiwaña (correct Aymara).

The issue is too complex to be fully explained here. I just wanted to add that I hardly ever move articles which other people edited. What I do is putting "redirects" from all the wrong spellings to the article name. So far I kept many wrong names in the Category:Volcanoes of Bolivia (Cerro Chascon, Cerro Guacha, Guayaques, Juriques, Licancabur, Linzor, Cerro Lípez, Olca, Ollagüe, Sairecabur, Tocorpuri, Zapaleri, even "Nuevo Mundo volcano" which also seems to be a completely wrong name) and in other categories although I often know what the correct spelling would be.

Please, keep in mind that Bolivian and Peruvian Aymara and Quechua children also use the wikipedia. They find many wrong spellings of Aymara and Quechua terms in this wikipedia, and they know that they are wrong because they learn Aymara and Quechua at school.

Hope I could clarify the matter. Cheers. -- CaTi0604 (talk) 09:33, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

  • My impression is that a number of names are "Hispanicized" versions of indigenous names (e.g Guallatiri). Is that correct? And sometimes there is more than one "Hispanicization" for a given name.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 13:43, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, rayt, vat if hui hispenisaiz Aymara or Inglis neymz, dazent it chast meyque zem rong? :) - Sometimes the result of this procedure is interesting like a "roadway" mountain (Calzada) and mountains with tuna fish (atún) high up in the Andes, or the spelling for the name of a village in Peru, a Quechua word which was interpreted as the Spanish name for an animal that lives in Africa (but not in Peru unless in zoos today). So those names can be misleading. -- CaTi0604 (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
We are not here to judge the effects of naming nor if naming in language X is logical. Spanish is the main language of Bolivia and the main written language there – even of indigenous Aymara and Quechua speaking populations. Indiscriminately applying indigenous spellings on geographical features of the Andes is a Pandora's box that will lead to much trouble. Dentren | Talk 18:06, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
In Bolivia and Peru you will find many spellings in words for mountains with an Aymara or Quechua background containing letters or combinations which don't seem to occur in Spanish words like Cc, chch, k, Kh, kh, Kk, kk, Ph, Qa, w, final ñ, (Ccarhuarazo, Jachcha Chankha, Kollke Huarani, Wila Khollu, Wila Kkollu, Qarwarazo, Wichukkollu, Challa Phujru, Wila Chanca, Pekheñ Khara). It is a spelling of its own. The terms are neither Spanish nor are they spelled according to Spanish spelling norms. And none of these mountains has an alternate Spanish name. -- CaTi0604 (talk) 06:37, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
It still sounds like we're pushing an agenda and referring to the Spanish name as a "wrong spelling" reinforces that impression. Spanish is the leading language and these peaks appear to be more commonly published in sources under their Spanish name. For example, Ancohuma is 10 times more common on Google and 30 times more common on Google Books than the article name of Janq'u Uma, which clearly fails WP:COMMONNAME. Whether the government is promoting use of other languages or not, and whether a language is predominant in some local area or what some children use, are not relevant. Bermicourt (talk) 08:45, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
I just found this Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mountains#Naming_conventions, where it says "Articles should be named according to the most common name for a mountain. If alternate names exist, mention them in the article and create redirects for them to prevent duplicate articles." To my knowledge the most common names of Bolivian mountains have Spanish spellings.Dentren | Talk 11:00, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Totally agree. --Bermicourt (talk) 13:08, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I'm not entirely sure how this discussion is going, or what exactly is going on to begin with, but my understanding of naming in general is that the common name (as proven by the references, preferably in English as this is the English WP) should be used for the titles of any and all articles. I do know that mountains in Peru are known by a mixture of names in Quechua and Spanish, but usually one name is more predominant than the other. It is also common for the hispanicized to be predominant, for example Machu Picchu and Huayna Picchu. Each case should be evaluated independently; tedious as a task that may be, it is the only way to be accurate on this subject.--MarshalN20 Talk 16:46, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Furthermore, it is wrong to claim the hispanicized version of the names should be "corrected" to the indigenous names. If the common name of a mountain in English is Redddddddd Moooontain, then that is the name that should be used for the article.--17:06, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Lol. The example I often use is Bayern Munich. Illogical though it may be to translate one half of the name of this football team and not the other, that's how it is universally known in English. Bermicourt (talk) 17:20, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Mount Fox in Canada[edit]

Hi. Can someone please backstop me. I approved an article on a mountain named Mount Fox in Canada today: Mount Fox (British Columbia); there was already an article named Mount Fox (Canada), but the coordinates were different for the second mountain. Could someone please verify that this is indeed an existent mountain? I'm having difficulty pulling up the online citations (the internet filter where I work is preventing me). Thanks. Onel5969 TT me 22:41, 28 January 2016 (UTC)