Wikipedia talk:WikiProject NASCAR

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Main pageDiscussionOpen tasksAssessmentStandardsNewsletterParticipantsPopular ArticlesRecent Changes


WikiProject NASCAR (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject iconThis page is part of WikiProject NASCAR, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to NASCAR. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, you can visit the project to-do page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
 Project  This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 


Achievements section in infobox[edit]

This has been bothering me for some time but I neglected to bring it up before. I think we should get rid of the achievement and award section in the driver infoboxes. It basically fills the infobox with a whole lot of trivia/info that is already listed in the article or at the bottom of the page where it is listed very clear. I think that is more than sufficient. I also don't see how to height and weight of the drivers is of encyclopedic value. For example; The infobox of Kyle Busch looks very messy and unclear.

I personally like the display of the F1 driver infoboxes. The infobox of Lewis Hamilton looks very neat and tidy and all the achievements and awards are listed is an achievements section at the bottom of the page. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 15:21, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

I like those sections, as long as they're filled with important achievements. I don't like height and weight but the rest of the awards/achievements are relevant for Kyle Busch. Infoboxes are an excellent quick summary of a person. Royalbroil 10:46, 26 October 2018 (UTC)
Some of those achievements are relevant, but I don't see why all those achievements should be listed in the infobox when they are already listed in the article's text and/or at the bottom of the page. I feel like this is just a bit much. An infobox should not contain very detailed statistics. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 14:41, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Relief drivers in results tables?[edit]

So I came across this article today from NBC Sports and it reminded me: since we've always noted qualifying substitutions in results tables, I've always thought we should include relief drivers as well, perhaps even more so than qualifying changes considering they drove the cars during the race. Dale Jr. at Texas in '07 aside, some other obvious examples would be the 2007 AT&T 250 in which Aric Almirola "won" the race while absent from the track (though Denny Hamlin was in his car), as well as Erik Jones making his unofficial Cup debut in relief of Hamlin in 2015, and Ty Dillon taking over for Tony Stewart in the spring Talladega race in 2016. There are undoubtedly others. Before adding to the tables, however, I wanted to get some input from you all. I'll ping Bcschneider53, ZappaOMati, and Willsome429 as they are the ones who seem to work with the tables most these days. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 19:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

The problem with this is that back in they day it was very normal to be relieved in a race. For example Dick May was everybody's favorite relief driver because he didn't tear up equipment. So at some races May relieved more than one driver. At the 1975 Mason-Dixon 500 he drove five cars in one race. If we would add those stats it could make some result tables very messy. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 19:36, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I see your point, but I feel as if those old Grand National tables are already messy by default because of how long the seasons were and how many cars they drove in so much as a single season. I still think it would be nice if we noted relief appearances to give those drivers credit. But let's see what others say. If it turns out I'm the only one that thinks that way, I won't be offended and will happily defer. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 21:54, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
I don't really have a side in this discussion, but I think it'd be a reasonable compromise to at least note if a driver replaced another mid-race but not list where they finished in their new car. For example, for Hamlin and the 2007 AT&T 250, we leave that cell in his results table empty since he's not listed in any official record as the winner, but have a symbol of sort like † or ‡ and note "Replaced Aric Almirola mid-race and won." at the bottom. ZappaMati 16:49, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
I am in agreeable with what Zappa said, but only after it became uncommon to have relief drivers. Not exactly sure when that would be but it is important because as previously mentioned, lots of early relief efforts are non-notable. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 17:33, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
Bcschneider53, ZappaOMati, Willsome429 I don't see what this adds to the results tables. It only makes the tables look messy. I feel like we can only add a certain amount of information in these result tables and still have them look nice and clear. Just look at Ty Dillon's result table. He now has two "results" in one cell at the 2016 GEICO 500. I feel like it's either one or the other. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 16:59, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
@Jahn1234567890: Dillon's case is unique because he both qualified for Stewart and replaced him mid-race. If it's one or the other, then I would argue relief appearances would actually perhaps be more noteworthy (and thus worth noting in the tables) since they pertain to the actual race itself rather than a qualifying session. F1 notes Friday test drivers who participate in FP1, so I don't see why we shouldn't note qualifying subs as well. Their records for shared drivers are also noted, though due to 1950s F1 rules, it's simple to note them in the tables. While NASCAR rules are different and thus require a separate entry in the cells, I still think the more modern ones in particular are worth mentioning. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 17:48, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
The reason it is noted in F1 is because a driver got credit for their shared drive. For example; Luigi Fagioli and Juan Manuel Fangio both received 4 points for their shared win at the 1951 French Grand Prix. In Nascar this is not the case. If you replace a driver midrace you get no credit whatsoever. The driver who started the race gets credit for all the driver that took over does. This is not the case if you qualify for a driver. If you qualify on the pole you still get the credit for that pole positon. (Drew Herring, Aric Almirola, Neil Bonnett, Jimmy Hensley and may more have done this.) I'm not saying that relief driver info is irrelevant, but I don't think we should list this in result tables. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 18:16, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I understand the argument, but something just doesn't sit right with me if Denny Hamlin's table his completely empty for a race he literally won (okay, not really, but he was driving the car when he came across the line in first place). If it's not irrelevant (and obviously, I'm with you on that), then it should be mentioned somewhere. Where else would we put it that makes the relief effort clear in a summary of the driver's season? --Bcschneider53 (talk) 22:39, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
I think mentioning it in a summary of the driver's season is sufficient. It's not like it has be added to the result table. Mentioning it in on the drivers page and on the race report (like is done on this page) should be sufficient. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 23:11, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Just for clarity, three plus years ago (my, how time flies), I brought this up on your talk page and you said this was "not a bad idea" because "It gives a driver credit for their hard work." I'm just curious as to why your stance has shifted over time; of course, there's nothing wrong with that, I had just recalled that you were open to the idea a while back. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 00:20, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Fair point. Reading my comment I'm not sure. I didn't really elaborate on it that much and I don't remember what my chain of thought was back then. Like I said before, it's not that the relief driver info is irrelevant, but I don't think we should list this in result tables. People who work (or have worked) on these tables regularly shall have no problem with understanding what is meant with the note in the Xfinity table of Denny Hamlin. But this isn't the case for people who casually visit these pages. Wiki is an encyclopedia. Whe shouldn't make things to complicated. Like I elaborated before, I think it is easier to just add a note on the race page itself and in the season summary of the driver page. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 01:13, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

With all due respect, I fail to see the complicated aspect of this. Maybe it's just the fact that I'm a fan of the sport (who also happens to have a featured article on the race in question), but to me, the note in the Hamlin table is pretty clear: he himself did not get any credit for the race result (hence why no position is given), but he did participate in the race by replacing Almirola in the No. 20 Joe Gibbs Racing Chevrolet. --Bcschneider53 (talk) 05:22, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
Here are my main objections: Adding another row to note Earnhardt Jr. relieved Kyle Busch makes his "clean" table messy. Adding two "results" in one table cell like is done with Ty Dillon makes things unclear and it looks horrible. Result tables were not intended to contain to detailed information. So if we would add a note because a driver relieved another, it should be a simple one; Relieved "name of driver" (the same as we do when a driver qualified a car)

Sprint Cup Series[edit]

NASCAR Sprint Cup Series results
Year Team No. Make 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 NSCC Pts
A Joe Gibbs Racing 11 Toyota DAY ATL LVS PHO CAL MAR TEX BRI
RL
RCH TAL KAN CLT DOV POC MCH SON DAY KEN NHA IND POC GLN MCH BRI DAR RCH CHI NHA DOV CLT KAN TAL MAR TEX PHO HOM
- Relieved Denny Hamlin
B Stewart-Haas Racing 14 Chevy DAY ATL LVS PHO CAL MAR TEX BRI RCH TAL
QL
KAN DOV CLT POC MCH SON DAY KEN NHA IND POC GLN BRI MCH DAR RCH CHI NHA DOV CLT KAN TAL MAR TEX PHO HOM 53rd 01
- Qualified for, and relieved Tony Stewart
C Dale Earnhardt, Inc. 8 Chevy DAY
32
CAL
40
LVS
11
ATL
14
BRI
7
MAR
5
TEX
36
PHO
19
TAL
7
RCH
13
DAR
8
CLT
8
DOV
22
POC
12
MCH
5
SON
13
NHA
4
DAY
36
CHI
19
IND
34
POC
2
GLN
42
MCH
12
BRI
5
CAL
5
RCH
30
NHA
16
DOV
3
KAN
10
TAL
40
CLT
19
MAR
23
ATL
25
TEX
14
PHO
43
HOM
36
16th 3929
  • A: If a driver only relieved for another A simple note should be enough.
  • B: If a driver Qualified the car and also relieved for that driver, adding it in the note should be sufficient.
  • C: In a case like that of Earnhardt Jr. we could simply add a tooltip to note he relieved Kyle Busch. I have done the same with Geoff Bodine at the 1996 Save Mart Supermarkets 300 were he failed to qualify a one-off entry

I don't want to make things so complicated but I think esthetics wise this is the best solution. Let me know what you think and feel free to add other ideas. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

This seems like a good compromise to me, though I think the tooltip should include the team name as well in the case of Earnhardt for consistency with what is listed in the rest of the table (e.g. "Also relieved Kyle Busch in the No. 5 Hendrick Motorsports Chevrolet"). --Bcschneider53 (talk) 19:01, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
That's fine by me. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 19:48, 8 November 2018 (UTC)
I added the Relief icon to the Key. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 20:59, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Amber Balcaen nominated for deletion[edit]

I recently nominated Amber Balcaen for deletion. Feel free to weigh in on the debate here. Any discussion is greatly appreciated! Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 20:06, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

NASCAR Winston Cup Series Era[edit]

Hi WikiProject NASCAR members. Would one of you mind taking a look at NASCAR Winston Cup Series Era and assessing it? It was created by a university student as part of a Wiki Ed assisted class assignment. It looks pretty good formatting wise, etc. but I'm not really familiar with NASCAR so can say how it is content wise (i.e., whether this stuff is already sufficiently covered in other articles so a stand-alone for it is not needed). It's in the mainspace now so that makes it fair game for anyone to edit, but hopefully you'll keep in mind that it is part of an ongoing class assignment; in other words, if it needs tons or improvement or needs to go, then perhaps WP:USERFY would be a better option than complete revision/deletion so as to allow the student to continue to try and improve it, and be graded for their work. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:42, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

@Marchjuly: I have never been involved in a Wiki Ed project, so I'm not exactly sure who to give feedback to. Here's my initial thoughts: There's no specific notability standard to judge it by, so I gave it a run by WP:GNG, which it clearly passes. The topic is more briefly covered in NASCAR lore, and the Winston Cup Series era page seems right now to be an expansion of that. I don't know what the specific assignment is, but it seems to me like the page would be more well-suited as a page about the growth of the sport during the era, not just highlights of the area, some of which are already covered in the aforementioned NASCAR lore page. However, there seems to be a lot of time and effort put in to just wholesale the page and change everything, especially when end of terms are near for a lot of students. It'll work either way, I have no qualms about that. A "for the main article" note can be added to the 70s, 80s and 90s sections of NASCAR lore to account for the page. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 23:52, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for taking the time to look at this. Technically, it's in the mainspace so anyone you can edit it or discuss ways to improve it article's talk page, but I'm not sure if the creator will respond: students editors seem to often disappear once their class has finished or they posted moved their work to the mainspace. There was also a brief talk page discussion about the article on Shalor (Wiki Ed)'s, who's helping the students in this class, where comments can probably also be made. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:19, 4 December 2018 (UTC)