Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City

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Grosvenor Avenue, Bronx[edit]

A question came up on my talk page which someone here may be able to answer better than I was. Anyone with extensive knowledge of Bronx neighborhood names and boundaries is encouraged to take a look at User talk:Beyond My Ken#Grosvenor Avenue. BMK (talk) 23:11, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd say Fieldston. I went to that neighborhood fairly recently, and I recognize the street name. Why do you ask? Epic Genius (talk) 00:19, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
@Wikiuser100: Regarding your comment here, the loop is almost definitely in north Fieldston, while the rest of the street is in Fieldston. However, since neighborhood boundaries are blurry for the most part, I'd say "Riverdale" is your best bet. Epic Genius (talk) 14:58, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Only if you're using the largest possible definition of "Riverdale". I'd fabor "North Fieldston" or just plain "Fieldston". I don't think "North Riverdale" is right, because the ridge mentioned starts at 250th & Iselin and goes west towards the river. Grosvenor loops either because of the terrain or because of the HH parkway. BMK (talk) 15:21, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
The northern part of Grosvenor is relatively new. It didn't exist in this 1996 aerial map, but it's under construction 10 years later. So it's a development of sorts, and the reason it loos is that it's hemmed in by Fieldson Avenue on the east, and the Henry Hudson Parkway on the borth and west -- there's basically no place for it do go, so, like a typical suburban develeopmen, it just looks around. If we could find out if the development has a name, that would help. BMK (talk) 15:33, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
OK, here's your answer. As you can see on this Google street image, the stone markers at the intersection of Grosvenor and 250th label the development to the north as Villanova Heights, so that's the name of that area. BMK (talk) 15:36, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Two NY Times articles on Villanova Heights:
BMK (talk) 15:42, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Good detective work BMK. That's the area in question, alright. I'm surprised first that it is so new and second at the slow pace of its development (not including governmental delays getting started). The "Villanova Heights" appellation appears to have been created as part of its development, displacing "Chapel Farms" according to the first of those Times articles you cited.

So the question remains, what neighborhood claims "Villanova Heights"? And while we're at it, the same for Christ Church immediately to the west (but inside the HHP) and the Riverdale Country School due east on Fieldston Road.

This passage from the North Riverdale page clearly places the Villanova Heights loop of Grosvenor starting at Iselin Avenue in the north and returning at 250th on the south in that neighborhood, according to the Federal Writers' Project of 1939: "One of the geographic characteristics which gives all of Riverdale its suburban quality is that it lies on a high ridge which separates it from the rest of the city.[1] The highest part of the ridge, at 284.5 feet above sea level, lies in North Riverdale, near Iselin Avenue and 250th Street."[2] (italics mine)

Considering the Project was published post-construction of the Henry Hudson Parkway (1934-37) it does not indicate its construction relegated that part of Grosvenor and its surrounds outside of North Riverdale, regardless that neighborhood elsewise is generally regarded today as beginning north of the Parkway at 254th Street.

It seems that the Fieldston's page's lede passage indicating it ends at 250th Street to the North is inconsistent with the Grosvenor "loop" being in Fieldston. I'm unaware of any "North Fieldston" neighborhood designation for the area north of 250th and south of the HH. As it stands, the FWP claim that the intersection of Iselin Avenue and 250th St. lies in North Riverside is all that's cited in the encylopedia. Those who know more please jump in. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 16:34, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Ultan, Lloyd. "Riverdale" in Jackson, Kenneth T. (ed.), (2010) The Encyclopedia of New York City (2nd edition). New Haven: Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-11465-2, p.1109
  2. ^ Federal Writers' Project. (1939) New York City Guide. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-403-02921-X (Reprinted by Scholarly Press, 1976; often referred to as WPA Guide to New York City), p. 510
Well, I see BMK is right. I've never heard of "Villanova Heights" before, being younger than a lot of editors on this site, but it looks like they have their own website. Plus, on the North Riverdale article, it says "The highest part of the ridge, at 284.5 feet above sea level, lies in North Riverdale, near Iselin Avenue and 250th Street" but not at the intersection, and numbered streets can disappear very easily in Riverdale. Maybe Villanova Heights is itself a Riverdale subsection, being not part of Fieldston or North Riverdale. Epic Genius (talk) 18:09, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
So far we've ascertained that Villanova Heights is the name of the neighborhood in the Grosvenor "loop" in question, but the jury's still out on what neighborhood that is in. The Federal Writer's Project claims it as North Riverdale. Christ Church is mute at its Wikipedia page (and its About Us links to its History are broken at its webpage [1]), but claimed by Fieldston at its here; as BMK points out the Horace Mann School is coyly mute about its Middle/Upper/Division at its webpage (but claimed here by Fieldston), and Riverdale Country School is mute about its "Hill Campus" neighborhood affiliation at both.
Anybody got a line on the boundaries of the Fieldston Property Owners' Association? Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 15:35, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure it's 250th Street. BMK (talk) 19:15, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm not part of that association, so I can't say for sure, but if the association says that the boundary is 250th Street, then it must be true, riiiight? Epic Genius (talk) 22:08, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll go with that; they should know, if anybody. That puts the area above 250th but inside the HHP up for grabs...which the FWP claimed as North Riverside back in 1939 (post-HHP construction, which is key). It seems less than coincidental that all those entities within that area stand mute, preferring (it appears) to be associated (rather naturally) with Fieldston rather than claiming allegiance to the less prestigious North Riverside. Which is good biz. Who wouldn't?

I haven't a dog in the fight, was just curious what entity what we now know as Villanova Heights fell into considering the enormous swaths of construction evident there from high in the air. Check it out (it helps to close the wide Explore bar at the base of the display): [2]. Rather boggling, as one cannot identify a single other construction site from that altitude, nor could I flying over. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 23:57, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

You really can't go by the FWP guide, published in 1939, there was no neighborhood there to name at the time - take a look at the links for the aerial photos above, or this one from 1924 and this one from 1951. You can;t name a neighborhood if there's no neighborhood there to name. The Henry Hudson physically separates Fieldston from Riverdale proper, therefore "North Riverdale" would logically be west of the parkway, not east of it.
  • On this New York Times real estate map, the "Fieldston" neighborhood encompasses everything inside the lopp of the Parkway
  • This real estate site lists a "North Fieldston" neighborhood in Riverdale, as well as a "Fieldston" and "North Riverdale", but I believe you have to sign in to get anything more than that.
Otherwise, there's not much support for "North Fieldston" as a neighborhood.
We could just call it terra nullius and leave it at that. Besides, what use is the name to us? We can't add it to articles without a source to support it, and there really aren't any. BMK (talk) 02:27, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
I couldn't find a better source. So, it would be in "North Fieldston" (if it existed), but North Fieldston doesn't exist, so... Epic Genius (talk) 15:27, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
...So North Riverdale it is by prior claim, though you can see why it would be lumped to advantage in with the geographically delimited Fieldston neighborhood. "Fieldston adjacent" is the usual euphemistic form for such informal attachments in the real estate trade. "North Fieldston" would make good sense, except that it isn't North Fieldston; you know the Fieldston property owners association would have something to say about that if the claim were made. Hence the muteness of all the above noted entities about their location just north of the legal end of the Fieldston boundary, No Man's Land that begins above 250th and south and east of the HHP. One can see why the FHP lumped it with North Riverside, if only be default (as we know nothing at this point of contemporary custom and use in 1939).
As for "Villanova Heights", I'd have left it "Chapel Farms". That sounds perfectly lovely so close to - actually still within - New York City. Not enouch cachet, I suppose, as Fitzpatrick chose to emphasize elevation over history. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 12:20, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I still think "North Riverdale" is excluded by the division of the ares by the parkway. BMK (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to agree, but Fieldston is a legal entity (owned by the FPOA) and there isn't a "North Fieldston" as a result. The area above 250th existed post-construction of the HHP and was designated as North Riverside in a contemporary history completed two years after the Parkway was, not before. I'm just happy with all the work you did teasing out Villanova Heights (though only the original (undated) historic aerial photo ever displayed at the maps.nyc.gov website for me. The one you indicated as 1996.). Thanks! Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 14:57, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Names can't be owned, although they can be trademarked, and you are surely correct that the FPOA would try to stop it from being used. The real problem is that even with Villanova Heights, there just isn't much there to make up a neighborhood, so it's never hit "critical mass" in which the realtors would make up a neighborhood name which might (or might not) catch on. If it ever does happen, I think "Chapel Hill" is a good neighborhood name too. In the meantime, I think there's no choice but to describe it geographical (eg. "north of Fieldston") as opposed to by a name. BMK (talk) 16:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
I meant Fieldston as a neighborhood is a legal entity owned by the FPOA, which indeed is unusual within a large stable metropolis like NYC as compared to private fairway and retirement communities exploding in affluent Sunbelt areas, for example. "SoHo", "Hell's Kitchen", "Greenwich Village", "North Riverdale", et al, evolved and consensus names for informally bounded "public" neighborhoods, being of course the norm.
Indeed, Villanova Heights has never hit critical mass, curiously so. Stunted by the 2008 real estate implosion/general recession, but slow both before and after as well. There's more going on (why juicy McMansions on choice lots in such an incredibly convenient area) are not moving faster/being retained than meets the eye as seen from our distant, oblique perspective. It almost makes me curious enough to dig further. Almost. Alot's been spaded over here that those who may have a more personal knowledge or interest in the area's neighborhoods can use to fine tune and correct affected articles. Good work, everyone. Yours, Wikiuser100 (talk) 14:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Templates for deletion[edit]

Please see Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_8#Template:D_.28New_York_City_Subway_service.29 for a discussion of templates for deletion. The discussion is about the {{BS-map}} used for the C, D, and 4 trains of the NYC subway. Epic Genius (talk) 15:24, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Taxi at some intersection near 10th Avenue[edit]

I just started searching through some streets in the commons category "Streets in New York City," and after zooming in on this intersection I found out it was in Manhattan on Tenth Avenue. The only question is the street approaching it. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 18:34, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm a little too lazy to look up the exact location.
  • It's West 26th Street at 10th Avenue, looking east. The low-rise Hudson Guild pre-school is on the north-east (far left) corner, hidden behind the trees, and the red brick buildings on the right and left past the avenue are the NYCHA's Elliott Houses. (I worked nearby for 3 years). The building on the right foreground is not part of the housing project. It has at least one art gallery in it, and "Avenues: The World School" - I believe it used to be a warehouse when I was there. BMK (talk) 18:40, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, and while we're discussing this, look what I found. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 22:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Wow, that's pretty amazing. BMK (talk) 22:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I believe I recognize this. Actually, the Avenues school takes up the whole building on the right. Source? I know people who go there... Epic Genius (talk) ± 20:35, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

oldnyc.org[edit]

Nice collection of old NYPL pictures, geotagged by object and mapped. site Jim.henderson (talk) 01:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Thanks, Jim, looks good. BMK (talk) 21:59, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
    • OK, now the question is, can we upload these to Commons if possible? Epic Genius (talk) ± 20:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject New York Theatre listed at Requested moves[edit]

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WikiProject New York theater[edit]

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RfC: Nikola Tesla[edit]

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Opinions requested[edit]

Talk:New York Academy of Medicine#Lede image BMK (talk) 23:02, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Resolved. BMK (talk) 02:17, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

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Mattress Performance[edit]

There is a discussion at the BLP noticeboard which may be relevant to this wikiproject. --Sammy1339 (talk) 00:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

City names in infoboxes[edit]

I feel like this must have been discussed before... As many of you know mailing addresses in New York City may go by the borough (123 Main St, Brooklyn, NY) as the boroughs share street addresses. This seems to counteract the established standard of "City, State, Country" in infoboxes. An easy way out is to just put "Borough, New York City, New York, US" but that could be too long aesthetically. So is "Borough, New York, US" acceptable provided there is ambiguity as to what borough the subject resides in? MusikAnimal talk 18:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The USPS's addressing policies are not consistent throughout the city. All mailing addresses in Manhattan are "New York, New York", and in Brooklyn it's "Brooklyn, New York", while in Queens each separate post office is used, as in "Astoria, New York" or "Flushing, New York". (I can't speak with any certainty about the Bronx and Staten Island). Since New York City (and, BTW, that's its official name, "New York City" or "the City of New York") is one of a handful of "world cities" which should be recognizable to people all over the globe, I avoid using "New York, New York" and "Brooklyn, New York" with preference for "Manhattan, New York City" and "Brooklyn, New York City", or, if the neighborhood is known and uncontentious "Tribeca, Manhattan, New York City", for instance, or "Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, New York City". (The "location" parameters in an infobox should give the reader the actual physical location, and not simply a generalized mailing address. I agree that tacking on the state and country makes for quite a long string, and, with the "world city" rationale in mind, I usually don't bother with them at all as being unnecessary. BMK (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Why not just go with the USPS official names? That seems like the most straightforward solution to me. Epic Genius (talk) 01:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
It may be a "straightforward solution", but it's one which is not always going to provide the correct answer - unfortunaely, life is messier than that. USPS names are the names of post offices, not necessarily the names of the cities they're in. They were designed for the delivery of mail, not necessarily as identifiers of the locale, and have been superseded by ZIP codes. Many places exist that are in one village or town or city and yet have their mail handled by a post office in another place because it's closer to the address. To take an example you're familiar with, mail to addresses in Marble Hill will be delivered correctly whether they're addressed to "Marble Hill, New York" or "Marble Hill, Bronx", as long as the ZIP code is correct. BMK (talk) 04:24, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I just noticed that there are some places, like "Red Hook, New York", where using just "New York" can be ambiguous (it can refer to Red Hook, Brooklyn; Red Hook (village), New York; or the town of Red Hook, New York), so I understand that that's why the correct ZIP code is needed. In that case, we can do "Manhattan, New York" for Manhattan; "Brooklyn, New York" for Brooklyn; and "Queens, New York" for Queens, in order to keep consistent with other places outside of NYC – like Albany, New York, or Buffalo, New York – since apparently only the ZIP code has to be correct. People from out of NYC will be more familiar with the higher-level administrative divisions (boroughs) of Manhattan, Brooklyn, and Queens, than they will be with lower-level divisions (neighborhoods) of Astoria or Flushing. Epic Genius (talk) 15:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Except that the city name is not "New York" (which in any case is ambiguous) but "New York City". "New York, New York" is a postal address only. BMK (talk) 18:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I actually meant "New York" as a state name, not a city name. For example, "Manhattan, New York" as opposed to "Manhattan, Kansas" or "Manhattan, Illinois". Epic Genius (talk) 20:23, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I thnk it's much more important to indicate that the place is in New York City then that it's in New York state. As I said, there are a handful of cities -- Paris and London, for instance -- which have this status. They are exceptions to the usual City, State, Country formulation. BMK (talk) 20:29, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I think that if you include a link to Manhattan, or to Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, or Staten Island for that matter, the reader will realize that these are in NYC. Besides, the names of the 5 boroughs are known around the world, and most English speakers know that Manhattan or Brooklyn is in New York City. If not, then "New York City" can be appended.
However, even though either "Manhattan, New York City" or "Manhattan, New York" can be used, "Manhattan, United States" cannot. Epic Genius (talk) 20:33, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────@Beyond My Ken and Epicgenius: Thanks for the input, guys! I'm late to get back to you, I'm realizing how bad I am at this watchlist thing. Anyway, this question arose from a dispute at Brooklyn Nets. Here, there's no question the team belongs to the borough of Brooklyn, and at least one author (surely others) have opted with "New York City, New York" as opposed to "Brooklyn, New York" or "Brooklyn, New York City, New York" – and here the US ismplied by the affiliation with the NBA (though NBA also has teams in Canada!). So I guess to bring this discussion a step further: Should using the borough name as the city be limited to cases where it as ambiguous? For instance, at the time of writing, Flushing Meadows–Corona Park is listed as located in "Queens, NY, United States"; then we have Grand Army Plaza listed as "Brooklyn, New York City" and a different field listing the state of "New York", and Medgar Evers College as "New York City (Crown Heights, Brooklyn), New York, United States"; Meanwhile we have Central Park listed as "Manhatan in New York City, United States". I guess the question is, should we bother with any sort of consistency? Or perhaps it varies based on subject and not the scope of New York City, such as parks versus sports teams and colleges? MusikAnimal talk 02:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

@MusikAnimal: The infobox in the "Medgar Evers College" article was an experimental addition of the neighborhood and borough, besides just "New York City, New York, United States". Most infoboxes about NYC subjects are like those in the "Grand Army Plaza" and "Central Park" articles, which indicate "New York City" as an administrative division behind "United States". Epic Genius (talk) 02:16, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Epicgenius: I do not think your generalization about "most infoboxes" is correct, either numerically or stylistically. MusikAnimal: "Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." (Emerson) I'd go with Brooklyn, New York City. As a world city, New York state and United States are both implied. BMK (talk) 03:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Actually, the format with NYC linked in the infoboxes is the most common. Indeed, my generalization is correct numerically, unless you can pull up evidence that another format prevails. Epic Genius (talk) 15:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Minor point, three of the mainland Queens GPOs or Section Centers, 111 Long Island City, 113 Flushing, and 114 Jamaica, are former Townships, though Newtown's name has been replaced by LIC. 116 Rockaway is a former panhandle of Town of Hempstead. So, once upon a time, Post Office boundaries followed municipal ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim.henderson (talkcontribs)
Cool. So that's probably why any zip code numbered 111xx is often labeled as "Long Island City, New York" whether it's in Astoria, Sunnyside, or somewhere else. Never realized that. Epic Genius (talk) 23:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Always more to learn. I picked up much NY geography, working as a provisional Distribution Clerk in Brooklyn GPO during the Christmas rush of 1968. Jim.henderson (talk) 11:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yeah... always good to keep picking knowledge, isn't it? ;-) Epic Genius (talk) 02:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC - Mattress Performance (Carry That Weight)[edit]

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