Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera

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A selection of August and September's new articles...

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Composer and Opera of the Month Proposals

A simple script will automatically replace the text on the front page with the appropriate month when the time comes. Here are the next three months:


Composer of the Month for October, 2016

The Composer of the Month focuses on improving opera composers' biographies and articles relating to their works.


Opera of the Month for October, 2016

The Opera of the Month focuses on improving existing opera articles or the coverage of related subjects. —

Click here to show the November and December Opera and Composer of the Month preparation areas

Composer of the Month for November, 2016

The Composer of the Month focuses on improving opera composers' biographies and articles relating to their works.


Opera of the Month for November, 2016

The Opera of the Month focuses on improving existing opera articles or the coverage of related subjects. —


Composer of the Month for December, 2016

The Composer of the Month focuses on improving opera composers' biographies and articles relating to their works.


Opera of the Month for December, 2016

The Opera of the Month focuses on improving existing opera articles or the coverage of related subjects. —

Clean up project: Copyright violations
Project alerts

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Archives – Table of Contents
Archives – Alphabetical Index

Article creation and cleanup requests[edit]

Note: Past creation and cleanup requests are archived here. Voceditenore (talk) 11:29, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Article requests
Cleanup requests
Voceditenore (talk) 18:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
This list is updated weekly, on a Tuesday (according to its History list). Scarabocchio (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Image requests[edit]

List here any articles for which you would like an image or any current images which could use cleanup or improvement.

WikiProject X[edit]

This is an initiative to improve WikiProjects and other subject-area collaborations on Wikipedia through research, design, and experimentation. The archive of their past newsletters is here. The WikiProject X coordinator is Harej. – Voceditenore (talk) 11:20, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Free subscriptions to databases[edit]

Voceditenore (talk) 10:53, 10 January 2013 (UTC) Updated by Voceditenore (talk) 07:57, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Opera articles: Recordings - which to exclude?[edit]

As there has been no further discussion on this since early December 2010, I've archived this here. But this is a topic we may want to revisit at some point, re expanding/clarifying the current article guidelines. Voceditenore (talk) 08:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The latest discussion (January 2014) is archived here. – Voceditenore (talk) 09:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Greetings from the German language Opera Project[edit]

Hello, just wanted to say Hi! from the German language Opera Project. We started in the beginning of 2011, a very recent effort compared to you. Likewise, our average articles on operas, composers etc. are quite behind the en:WP in terms of coverage and content. Which is a shame, considering the richness of opera life in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. We have started by focussing on the widely read articles on popular operas, see this List, which gives page impressions in de:WP and en:WP and also global number of productions per year as a proxy for popularity. The rationale is this: given our low number of contributors, having 20 formerly poor articles on popular operas turned into solid works is worth more then 20 more articles on arcane subjects. How did you go about growing your project? PS: Maybe there could be some areas of cooperation, especially as regards access to and understanding of German language sources and literature. Let me know what you think. --Non mi tradir (talk) 16:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

  • I have introduced this timely proposal to the discussion here. --Smerus 20:27, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Articles needing libretto links[edit]

Note that for now some of the Rossini librettos can still be accessed from the list on this page on Karadar, but it will require adding those new links to the articles, and I'm not sure how long it will be before Karadar closes that loop hole. Anyhow, here's the list of operas so far where I've removed dead links and there is currently no other alternative. It's also possible to recover some of the karadar links via the Wayback machine, as was done at L'éclair, although it's a bit fiddly. If you add a new link, just strike through the opera name(s) below. Voceditenore (talk) 16:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Help! Does anyone know how to access Karadar these days? It appears to be a dead link - and I've tried to get into it via a couple of ways. Viva-Verdi (talk) 16:15, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi Viva-Verdi. It appears to have disappeared in all its guises–.com, .org. and .it. I have a feeling they ran into copyright problems with some of their stuff. It's not showing up on Google searches at all and see this wacky note. I have found this other site which has links to zillions of libretti. Hopefully, you'll find the one(s) you're looking for. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:06, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Le domino noir (only score found), Sigurd (opera), Ciro in Babilonia, Sigismondo, Ricciardo e Zoraide, Eduardo e Cristina, L'equivoco stravagante, I Capuleti e i Montecchi, Médée (Charpentier), Emilia di Liverpool, Francesca di Foix, Il signor Bruschino

Spam links to watch out for[edit]

Tool for finding all pages currently linking to a particular domain

  • Commercial site based in Italy selling streamed opera recordings. Had been added to 20 singer and opera articles. Voceditenore (talk) 10:45, 11 May 2015 (UTC) Not yet blacklisted

Requested opera templates[edit]

Archived at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 120. Voceditenore (talk) 09:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Verdi image project[edit]

Unless otherwise indicated, text in this section is by Adam Cuerden. Background here. Voceditenore (talk) 12:43, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Verdi image project to do[edit]

Also: André-Adolphe-Eugène Disdéri's photos of Verdi; and

Bonus To Do[edit]

Things he worked on less extensively.

Things he probably would be happy I worked on, even if he didn't[edit]

Because, frankly, I think he'd be happy I was editing opera on his behalf, even if it was different operas. Going to focus on ones he at least curated, though.




There are currently 38 restorations, which can be viewed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Verdi image project results, as they were slowing down loading of this talk page.

  • Adam, can I archive this whole Verdi image project section or are you still planning to use it? It hasn't been touched or edited since September. Voceditenore (talk) 08:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
    • Archive the second thread, the Verdi project's still ongoing in the background, just some of it jumped straight to WT:VERDI. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Verdi image project: Stage 2[edit]

This thread may be archived No real discussion happened, so it's effectively useless to keep up. Adam Cuerden (talk) 12:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Note: Verdi image project: Stage 1 is archived here. Voceditenore (talk) 09:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The Verdi image project is going well, but I'm... kind of running out of Verdi, to be honest. I've done a fair number, and think that only Simon Boccanera, Falstaff, the Requiem are left to restore, if we ignore my Aida project.

It's time to look forwards. So, here's a list of the operas of Verdi, with ones I lack high-quality images for in bold. For the rest, I've noted the image, or, in the case of Aida, one of the five images. Aida got a little out of hand...

  1. Oberto, Conte di San Bonifacio (1839)
  2. Un giorno di regno (1840)
  3. Nabucco (1842)
  4. I Lombardi alla prima crociata (1843) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Lombardi alla prima crociata. Libretto, 1843 - Restoration.jpg
  5. Ernani (1844)
  6. I due Foscari (1844)
  7. Giovanna d'Arco (1845) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Giovanna d'Arco, Vocal Score - Restoration.jpg
  8. Alzira (1845)
  9. Attila (1846) File:Illustrated London News - Giuseppe Verdi's Attila at Her Majesty's Theatre, London.jpg
  10. Macbeth (1847) See below
  11. I masnadieri (1847) File:Costumes for Act I of Giuseppe Verdi's I masnadieri - Original.png (unrestored)
  12. Jérusalem (1847) One done, more to come
  13. Il corsaro (1848) I
  14. La battaglia di Legnano (1849)
  15. Luisa Miller (1849) Low-res.
  16. Stiffelio (1850) - Low-res available.
  17. Rigoletto (1851) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Rigoletto, Vocal score illustration by Roberto Focosi - Restoration.jpg
  18. Il trovatore (1853) - See below.
  19. La traviata (1853) File:Giuseppe Verdi, La traviata title page - Restoration.jpg
  20. Les vêpres siciliennes / I vespri siciliani (1855) (It would be nice to have one each, but...) Aside: The image use in these is terrible. So much misattribution. I will be tearing these apart.
  21. Simon Boccanegra (1857/1881) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Simon Boccanegra first edition libretto for the 1881 revision of the opera.jpg (unrestored)
  22. Aroldo (1857)
  23. Un ballo in maschera (1859) File:Giuseppe Verdi, Un Ballo in maschera, Vocal score frontispiece - restoration.jpg
  24. La forza del destino (1862) File:Alexandre Charles Lecocq - Giuseppe Verdi - La forza del destino.jpg
  25. Don Carlos (1867) (low res) - Gallica has tons, from to - File:Giuseppe Barberis - Carlo Cornaglia - Giuseppe Verdi's Don Carlo at La Scala.jpg to start.
  26. Aida (1871) File:Set design by Philippe Chaperon for Act4 sc2 of Aida by Verdi 1871 Cairo.jpg
  27. Otello (1887) - Gallica has some stuff.
  28. Falstaff (1893) File:Ettore Tito -The Production of Verdi's Falstaff at Milan - Falstaff Concealed in the Buck-Basket in Ford's House original scan.png (unrestored)

Now, a number of these aren't particularly notable. But some of these are very notable. I don't think I'm going to make all of them, but if anyone can help me find images to fill in as many of the gaps... I haven't really gone through Gallica properly - - and that might just get us a lot of the missing images. I'll start doing that now. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:06, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Oberto, Un giorno, Nabucco, Alzira[edit]

I can provide very early, likely first edition libretto title pages. None are very good, though, and I think most are under-sized to be featured pictures (I prefer things likely to reach featured picture status as they get the articles onto the main page of Wikipedia.)

Are these any use? Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:58, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


  1. Another in the Oberto/Giorno/Nabucco/Alzira mode.
  2. There's two good costumes for an early Paris production. Any use?
  3. are for the Hugo play, but one or more might do to illustrate?

Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I due Foscari[edit]

Is worth doing? It's that or a 1979 set design that seems to have been released into the public domain, but, while certainly not a bad set design ( ) is rather stylised and says little about the opera.

We have a libretto, as with the others (Oberto, etc) :

If none of these are good enough, I may give up on this one. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:38, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


I can do any or all of these. What do you like best?

  1. is good.
  2. or - (Same image, but one has more ink splatter, the other more bleedthrough)
  3. and might be good, but I'm not sure if set designs for a non-première have particularly high encyclopædic value. Maybe the second (Act III, Scene 6) for the artistry?

Please advise. Adam Cuerden (talk) 09:26, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


We happily have a lot of options here, since it premièred in Paris, and the Bibliotheque Nationale de France is very good at image releases. I'll need help deciding. Bolded images are ones I consider likely.

  1. There's a couple images of Esther Eliza Julian van Gelder, the original Hélène. [1] is okay, but I think [2] is much better. We don't have an article on her, though, so far as I can tell. Should we?
  2. We also have images of Duprez, the original Gaston. I'd say [3] was the best, but [4] is close. We also have [5] and [6], but those are just inferior versions of the first two.
  3. I have no idea who Flora Fabbri is. But we have an image of her. Moving on.
  4. Set design: We have one maquette for Act III: (I have no idea how to translate maquette). It is at in a variety of angles. We could easily crop something quite nice out of one of them. The Bibliotheque Nation... BNF is quite good at releasing photos into public domain of things like this, so we can use it.

This gets us to the hard part: Press illustrations for the première. They're all pretty good, which makes selection hard, especially as they only cover Act III or IV, so there's a limited number we could reasonably use.

  • Act 3:
  2. - With giant heads? Another copy at [8].
  3. - I'm identifying this one by the set design linked above.
  • Act 4:
  1. - I think this is a poster. Pretty obviously Act IV.

So, what does everyone think. If people want to help out a bit with touching up the article, we could probably get Jérusalem very well illustrated, but I'd like a start point. Adam Cuerden (talk) 10:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Luisa Miller[edit]

There are some costumes for an 1853 Paris production. - These any use? There's also another libretto. Adam Cuerden (talk) 10:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Il trovatore[edit]

Here's my options:

That's about it for the Italian. However, Verdi made a French version, Le trouvère. And, unsurprisingly, the Bibliothique Nationale de France has lots on that. Although not nearly so much as you'd think for one of the bigger Verdi operas:

  1. Some lovely costume designs: (Only one for a named character, though, unless I've missed some text on them)
  2. Some more costume designs, albeit mostly for choristers:
  3. God knows:
  4. And, rather randomly, some set designs from 1904.

Any thoughts? Adam Cuerden (talk) 10:51, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I tread with care here, lest I be torn to pieces by frenzied Verdians, but I think the only important opera shown in bold on your list, above, is Nabucco, and I think your researches should focus on it. Top notch images for the others would, it hardly needs saying, be wonderful to have, but Nabucco would be my suggestion for top of your list. What you have found and polished so far for so many operas in the canon is truly magnificent. Tim riley talk 21:42, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Alban Berg[edit]

Fans of Alban Berg might enjoy the following links. Note that the BNF clearly states these are Public Domain (presumably by release into the public domain), hence we have a selection of released images of a pair of operas it would otherwise be difficult to get images for.

If people aren't aware of how to get the high-definition copies, poke me and I'll walk you through. Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:30, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

French composer images[edit]

I've been having some decent luck finding the originals of some low-resolution photos used in composer articles. Expect some changes in response to this, mostly for the good, though some carte de visite mounts may appear in an article or two where they weren't before. If this is a problem, poke me about setting up {{CSS image crop}} on those images. Adam Cuerden (talk) 13:54, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Opera News turns 80[edit]

Opera News turns 80 this coming May and has several interesting articles from its archives available on its website right now. For instance, this article has Renata Scotto and Luciano Pavarotti cooking dinner together for James Beard and George Lang complete with recipes by Scotto and Pavarotti. See here for other entertaining reads. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:10, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Thanks so much for that, 4meter4. I'm going to squirrel away some of that stuff off-wiki for future use. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:38, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Andrij Dobriansky[edit]

I recently expanded this article and would like some feedback based on this Wikiproject. I looked at some other articles about opera singers for format ideas, but not sure if I'm using the style guide you recommend. Thanks! tufkaa (talk) 21:14, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

See my comments below in the section titled "Contemporaries". Voceditenore (talk) 17:42, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Nessun Dorma and Donald Trump[edit]

Now this is a truly interesting bit about its "cultural references", but would no doubt lead to a firestorm. Nevertheless, here it is for your collective delectation...

Voceditenore (talk) 17:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Well that guy from Iran did come to a rather nasty end ... oh never mind. Shouldn't go there. Antandrus (talk) 17:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)
Selections from Götterdämmerung might be more appropriate for him.....Smerus (talk) 19:13, 22 July 2016 (UTC)


What is the standard for including mention of a subjects contemporaries in an article? My understanding is that it is common practice to mention fellow performers of note when mentioning debut or other important specific performances. As in, Jean Kraft made her debut in such and such alongside Beverly Sills. Yes?tufkaa (talk) 00:56, 24 July 2016 (UTC) tufkaa (talk) 00:56, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

There's a fine line between WP:PUFFERY and legitimately providing context. Your example of a single name seems alright to me, but often, especially with less well-known artists, their biography is bloated with laundry lists of A-listers they have performed with – often this reeks a bit desperate. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:24, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
Hi tufkaa. Michael is right about the "fine line" and personally I avoid adding who else appeared in/directed/conducted the same performance. It is rarely relevant to the person's biography or the trajectory of their career. What are key are the role and the opera house. I assume you're talking about Andrij Dobriansky, which you mentioned above. There seems to have been a bit of ruckus with two socks attempting to excise large amounts of material. Both have been blocked, the deletions reverted and DGG has now stepped in to copyedit the article for encyclopedic tone and neutrality. He's very experienced in this, and I basically approve of the changes he's made. It's now tighter and more encyclopedic. It could probably use a bit more work, though. I'd remove the laundry list of conductors, for one thing. That's really uninformative and should be avoided. ditto the cliche "under the baton of". Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Va tacito e nascosto[edit]

This is an interesting new article on one of the arias in Handel's Giulio Cesare in Egitto. But it needs some attention to the layout and Template:infobox song currently in the article is wrong for this. It's basically designed for pop songs and needs to be changed to Template:Infobox musical composition. I'd do this myself, but I'm off for a month in deepest darkest Tuscany with suitcases to pack and limited internet access once I'm there. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 09:29, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Infobox changed, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:42, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Gerda, the revised infobox format gives the premiere date simply as 'performed' - whch is a rather odd usage - can that be changed to 'first performed' or, maybe 'premiered'?--Smerus (talk) 15:38, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
It's intentionally open, because sometimes we can't be sure if something was the first performance, sometimes more than one performance is relevant, sometimes it would be called premiere, but not for sacred music. You could ask on the talk of {{infobox musical composition}} for more options. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for your attentiveness to this, Voceditenore, Gerda Arendt, Smerus. I wasn't entirely familiar with the MOS for arias when I wrote it and I appreciate everyone taking care of fixing it. (This is, by far, my favorite aria of all time and I was suddenly horrified to realize there was no article on it!) LavaBaron23:23, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Rudolf Rojahn[edit]

The recent removal of all content at Rudolf Rojahn and conversion into a REDIRECT to Guerilla Opera, without any transfer of content, seems like a speedy delete. It should have been taken to WP:AFD. I have no interest in the article, but I think proper process ought to be followed. I've raised the matter at Talk:Rudolf Rojahn and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:35, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

I've reverted, so that discussion can take place.--Smerus (talk) 10:27, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Update: now nominated for AfD by User:Michig.--Smerus (talk) 15:50, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Filip Bandžak[edit]

Dear Opera Fans,

Thank you for your attention and reading my calling for saving the article opera singer Filip Bandžak on English Wikipédia. This young, talented and notable opera singer who has performed all in the world and also in my native country, Hungary, I have thought, is worth creating Wiki articles. Unfortunately, in English wikipedia this article is offended and some of editors (I think it's only the minority) think that this article should be delated, see the link below:

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Filip Bandžak

Please help me and let's save this musician article. I hope you can vote for keeping. Thank you. Borgatya (talk) 20:13, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Florence Foster Jenkins[edit]

I hesitate to put this issue before this group. (Personally speaking, I never found Florence Foster Jenkins's recordings very funny.) Those people who have an intense interest in FFJ have produced an article which has way too much opinion. With the U.S. release of the Meryl Streep film, perhaps some members would like to exercise their editing talents in reshaping the article to have a more encyclopedic tone. - kosboot (talk) 01:38, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Expanding Much Ado About Nothing (opera)[edit]

Earlier in the month extracts from this opera were performed in England. And given the recent announcement by Naxos Records that new recording of Stanfords Choral music is coming out in September, I thought it might be worthwhile expanding this article. I have made a preliminary step in converting the sources to the current reference format. But I thought I'd post here as I've not done much editing of opera articles and I would like help from more experienced editors in this matter. Graham1973 (talk) 13:18, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Great stuff, I've just tidied it up a little and will add more if I can find it.--Smerus (talk) 15:08, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

Arias/songs italics[edit]

On the occasion of "Va tacito e nascosto" appearing on the main page in DYK, the question of formatting foreign-language arias – and by extension, songs – has been raised. User:The Rambling Man applied the, in my view wrong, italic formatting from DYK to this article and suggested a wider discussion or raising it at WP:Main Page/Errors#Errors in the current Did you know.... At Talk:Va tacito e nascosto, I pointed out that according to MOS:ITALICS, the titles of major works (operas, albums, books) are italicised (details at MOS:TITLE), and minor works (songs, arias, poems) are not. I also mentioned that there's an obvious conflict with MOS:FOREIGN in this case, but that it is long-standing practice to apply MOS:NOITALIC, regardless of the aria's language.

1) Am I correct in my assumptions about the formatting of arias/songs in foreign languages – not italicised but in quotation marks? Do the WP:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines need a section on this subject? Note that the section WP:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines § Arias, duets, choruses etc. uses that convention. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:43, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

  • Support quotation marks; oppose italics LavaBaron (talk) 05:40, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Draft:New Chamber Opera[edit]

Hello opera experts. Is this draft ready for mainspace? I'm sorry if I asked this before; I can't seem to find an archive search box here.—Anne Delong (talk) 16:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

  • The article seems generally OK to me, except that it gives a number of inappropriate references. For example, the present notes 2,3,6 and 7 refer to sources which do not mention or refer to the article subject and are therefore not acceptable. Also most of the productions and recordings require citations. If you can add all (or at least some) of the missing citations, and delete the citations which are not appropriate, you should be OK. By the way, tidy up the linking: a lot of overlinking, and some e.g. Tom Johnson lead to disambig pages. Best, --Smerus (talk) 16:32, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
  • I don't think you posted it previously, so thanks. This reads like it's from the organization's website. Based on seeing articles in much worse shape, I guess it's ready. I note that at least half of the footnotes are spurious: They are references to general topics in New Grove and other sources. Very few actually relate to the activities of the organization. I suppose notability could be established based on the number of recordings but it would be better to get some reviews of the organization itself. - kosboot (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Smerus and kosboot, for pointing out the inappropriate references; I don't have access to those books, so I couldn't read the text. I have removed them. I know little about opera (although, as it happens, the first article I created was Toronto Light Opera Association); I just found this draft abandoned and added some references to demonstrate notability. I have moved the article to mainspace, commented out the list of student productions, removed some duplicate wikilinks, removed some external links that were about other things, and tagged the list of productions with "refimprove". I'll leave further improvement to the opera enthusiasts.—Anne Delong (talk) 11:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

La vie parisienne[edit]

I don't think the move discussion at Talk:La Vie Parisienne was listed WP:WikiProject Opera/Article alerts. Anyway, the result was that Offenbach's La vie parisienne has been moved to La Vie parisienne (operetta). I think that's not in accordance with WP:OPERATITLE's preference for sentence case for foreign-language titles, and where this work is specifically mentioned as an example. I mentioned this at Talk:La Vie parisienne (operetta) and would like some input which disambiguator should be used, "(Offenbach)", "(operetta)" or "(opera)". I'd prefer the first. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 23:58, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

I think La vie parisienne (operetta) is the one to go for, for two reasons: 1) The article is already there (except for the capital V): 2) someone who's searching for it is likely to know that it is an operetta (or anyway a stage work) but may not know the name of Offenbach. It would be different of course if more than one composer had written a work called 'La vie parisienne', in which case the composer's name wouldt make an appropriate disambiguator.--Smerus (talk) 06:16, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
You're right. I will attempt to do that soon, after inspecting the consequences for incoming links and templates. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:31, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Threepenny Opera opera?[edit]

Discussions whether The Threepenny Opera is indeed an opera took place in June 2007 and January 2009. There were arguments in both directions, 3 in favour, 1 against in 2007; 4 in favour, 2 against in 2009. The arguments in favour cited several opera reference works which list it, the argument against in 2007 was that it doesn't sound like an opera and is performed in venues other than opera houses, in 2009 that a) it just isn't; b) it's an important piece of theatre history; and c) doesn't conform with OED's definition of "opera", which I just looked up: "A dramatic musical work in which singing forms an essential part, chiefly consisting of recitatives, arias, and choruses, with orchestral accompaniment; a performance of such a work; a libretto or musical score for such a work."

Today, without discussion, one of the opponents from 2009, User:DionysosProteus, removed all opera-related categories: (long) diff, edit summary: "Reordering and cats". I don't see why several classes of categories – theatre, musical theatre,opera – can't all be applied here, in part because banners for projects of those areas are on the article's talk page, and of course because of the for arguments in previous discussions. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:22, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Just revert. Johnbod (talk) 13:21, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm afraid that you are, I assume inadvertently, misrepresenting the source. Grove does not say that it's an opera. On the contrary, in the list of "Operas, Operettas, Musicals and Ballets", it is described as "play with music". (Grove 1980 v.20, 309). The arguments against calling it an opera are that, as the image in the article states unambiguously, as does the lede, that it is a "play with music", or a musical. The categorisation in place is OR. A search on Youtube for recordings offers a common-sense based definition as well. No one who has actually experienced the work imagines it's an opera. Our article ought not to mislead its readers with a false categorisation, regardless of a Wikiproject's (false) sense of ownership.  • DP •  {huh?} 16:06, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm with Michael Bednarek and Johnbod on this. "No one who has actually experienced the work imagines it's an opera"? I'd like to see a source for this if it is a serious argument. Otherwise it's just WP:OR. Oxford Music Online cites Hans Keller as describing the work as follows : ‘the weightiest possible lowbrow opera for highbrows and the most full-blooded highbrow musical for lowbrows’. If Keller can imagine it as an opera that's good enough for me. That doesn't stop it being other things as well, as course, but there is no case here for Wiki-Puritanism. OMO also says by the way "Rather than carry the drama forward the music stops the action in its tracks in a way comparable to opera seria." So of course it should be categroized as an opera along with any other appropriate categorizations.--Smerus (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
What nonsense! It is always included in reference works on opera, which of course in no way precludes it being in other works on plays. Many early operas have similar forms. Johnbod (talk) 17:19, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Antony and Cleopatra has comic elements, without it being a comedy. There are forty sources on the talk page for your perusal that should clear up the confusion.  • DP •  {huh?} 00:02, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

No they don't - we can't see what they say, and they are nearly all books on musicals etc claiming it as their own, as equivalent books on opera also do. Not all as RSs either. No one is asking that musicals categories are removed. Johnbod (talk) 02:55, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I selected each and every one of the more than forty sources, all of which are reliable, third-party sources, on Google books, precisely so that you could. If I was able to confirm that each one said that it is a musical, then so, too, are you. I have not selected sources from an academic library for precisely that reason--though the overwhelming majority there, too, would concur. You are welcome to provide a list of sources that explicitly say that it is an opera, if you are able to locate them. The categorisation indicated by the general scholarly consensus is Category:Musicals by Kurt Weill. You are welcome, too, to indicate which specific sources in that long list are unreliable and why, too.  • DP •  {huh?} 03:13, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

It seems that DP just doesn't understand that a topic may belong to more than one category. The 'ownership' aspect of this discussion is entirely on his side. The fact that he selected 40 sources so as to reinforce his own view makes this clear. No one in this project has argued that the article should be categorised exclusively as opera. I refer again to the quote from the respected music critic Hans Keller which I cite above - indicating that the work can be viewed (and heard) both as an opera and a musical - which I think effectively closes the discussion.--Smerus (talk) 06:14, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

It took me one second to find this about the work in question in The Faber Pocket Guide to Opera, by the oepra critic Rupert Christiansen.--Smerus (talk) 06:18, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment/Question: Has the work ever been, or been widely, performed in standard opera venues? Such as, the Met, the ROH, the standard continental European opera venues such as La Scala, Vienna State Opera, major German opera houses, etc.? That's generally one way we determine the difference between musicals, operettas, and operas. Some works are indeed crossovers and have been performed in both or all three types of venues (e.g. Candide, Treemonisha, Trouble in Tahiti, some Viennese operettas, some Gilbert and Sullivan works, etc.). I'd say it's fairly clear that if a major work has never been performed at an opera house, it is not an opera. I'm not trying to fan the dispute here, but I think this is an issue that may merit re-visiting, with an actual RFC rather than an endless inconclusive thread. Softlavender (talk) 06:43, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I elaborated a bit on that aspect of the discussion at Talk:The Threepenny Opera, but that line seems a bit pointless to me. Opera houses perform musical theatre works quite regularly; is My Fair Lady now an opera that it's been given at the Sydney Opera House? OTOH, if a opera has never been performed at the Met etc. doesn't make them non-operas. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:34, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I never said or implied that being performed at the Met was a requisite for a work being an opera. I specifically said "I'd say it's fairly clear that if a major work has never been performed at an opera house, it is not an opera." In terms of the Sydney Opera House, unlike other opera houses, it regularly stages musicals. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:59, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

It is a new one on me that an opera has by definition to be performed at an opera house. Isn't this just a bit pointy? (How about, e.g. Found and Lost?). Nevertheless, look here at Operabase for performances of the 'Threepenny Opera' since 2014 alone, which include Amarillo Opera, Tacoma Opera, Opera du Toulon, Theater an der Wien, etc. etc.--Smerus (talk) 08:28, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Again, I said "major work", not "opera". Found and Lost is most definitely not a major work, having only been performed in one venue ever. Softlavender (talk) 09:05, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Of course, but the serious point I was making is that a quick look at Operabase shows that Dreigroschenoper had been performed at a number of opera venues in the past two or three years alone.--Smerus (talk) 10:25, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
  • There is a parallel discussion going on at the talk page. I have copied all this section over there. Please continue the discussion there. Thanks. Johnbod (talk) 13:23, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Comment. Steven Sondheim was once asked whether Sweeney Todd was an opera or a musical. His response was it depends on where its playing and who is performing it. When Sweeney is done on Broadway using musical theater performers and conventions it is a musical. When it is performed in an opera house using opera singers and opera conventions it is an opera. There are certain works that bridge both genres and what makes them fit in one genre may not be what is actually written on the page but how the work is translated in performance. The same may be true for The Threepenny Opera. I personally would choose to use both musical and opera categories for the article. Best.4meter4 (talk) 20:30, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Searching for a proof-reader for The Children of Rosenthal[edit]

Hello, I've translated an article about the opera, and I would appreciate if someone could proof-read it. I think, this artile at least could be interesitng to read, as an example of Russian postmodern art, so if anyone could fix some spelling/syntax problems during the reading, that would be great :-) I cannot find any sources in English, unfortunately. The Russian article was reviewed by several people for a "Good article" nomination, but there I cannot get the topic expained to match their criteria, so currently "Readable articles" project reviewes it to get a nomination. I.e. though an English speaker cannot read the sources, no worries, you can match them to Russian ones which were/are being checked by Russian reviewers. Thanks! --EUvin (talk) 12:59, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Best composer portrait on Wikipedia?[edit]

(Just a drive-by comment) ... I was a bit surprised by the composer portrait on the Oscar Ferdinand Telgmann page. Scarabocchio (talk) 16:02, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Hi Scarabocchio! Nice to see you, if only fleetingly. Hmmm, yes, a quite surprising bit of illustration. This is what it looked like. Killjoy that I am, I have removed it. The article itself is still quite a mess but at least Boo Hoo the Bear is gone. Voceditenore (talk) 16:52, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Shame on you ... these are dark times in the offshore bit of Europe, and we must take our (small) pleasures where we can ... :-) Scarabocchio (talk) 17:05, 21 September 2016 (UTC)