Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Radio Stations

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Coverage of flips[edit]

Me and @Alex jirgens: have gotten into conflicts over how detailed coverage of radio station format flips can be before they reach the level of trivia and intricate information, particularly mentioning first/last songs of formats, as well as use of sources such as formatchange.com to "cite" them.

My opinion is that if a reliable source outside of just a normal radio industry publication acknowledges that there is a significance to the first song or last song played in a format (KKLQ (FM) and playing "The End" at the end is a little obvious, but that their final DJ as a rock station played the entire album side it came from is a lot more significant.) can be appropriate. Routine flips by non-major stations do not have such historical significance.

While I'm here, this will also be a reply about their assertion that, in response to my argument that formatchange.com may violate WP:COPYVIOEL, that "An over-the-air radio broadcast can not be copyrighted"; actually, yes. Most broadcast regulators (CRTC, FCC, etc.) require that stations maintain a log and recordings of their on-air output for regulatory purposed. Copyright exists once something is fixed, plus, the legal definition of "fixed" in U.S. copyright law includes that "a work consisting of sounds, images, or both, that are being transmitted, is 'fixed' for purposes of this title if a fixation of the work is being made simultaneously with its transmission. On-air materials between the copyrighted musical recordings can qualify as a work for hire by the station's owner.

In the end, I'm not sure if we have any real consensus on this. I think we really need to address this, if not already. ViperSnake151  Talk  02:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

In order to include information about individual songs played by a radio station, even at a key event such as the initial launch or the temporal borders of a format flip, you're correct that what we require is verification in reliable sources. The station's "recently played" scroll on its website, further, is not appropriate verification, because it can usually only be accessed for a few days before it expires — so we would need a permanent and enduring source writing about the station's choice of song. And you're correct that an OTA radio broadcast most certainly can be copyrighted, in exactly the same way that television stations most certainly can slap YouTube with a take-down order if somebody uploads a broadcast TV segment without permission. Typically radio or television stations won't bother unless the content somehow reflects poorly on them, but they absolutely do have the right to enforce a copyright take-down on YouTube or an aircheck site like formatchange.com — so our copyright rules, under which we can't source stuff to unauthorized copies of broadcast content on sites that aren't that content's copyright holder, do preclude using formatchange as the source.
I'm less sure about whether a radio industry trade publication would be insufficient; it certainly fits the verifiability bill, but you're right that it's weaker as a notability builder than general-market media coverage is. (For example, a radio personality wouldn't necessarily get an article just because they could technically be sourced to the employment notes column in a radio industry tradepub.) Bearcat (talk) 20:38, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
In my opinion, FormatChange.com meets the requirement of a third-party source, as the operator of that website is not affiliated with any radio station or broadcast company. The operator of the website also owns and operates RadioInsight.com, which has - in the past - been a subject of discussion as to being a reliable source and, as I recall, the consensus was that it is. I'm not one for an "If this, then that" argument, normally, but I feel that passes muster in this case. With regard to information such as the final song before a format change and/or the first song of a new format, I see no harm on it being included as part of the explanation of the flip. Yes, it is trivial information, but in many cases, those songs mean something to the station being flipped and the new format being put in its place. StrikerforceTalk Review me! 21:15, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
Additionally, to this point - "The station's "recently played" scroll on its website, further, is not appropriate verification, because it can usually only be accessed for a few days before it expires — so we would need a permanent and enduring source writing about the station's choice of song." - such a permanent and enduring source exists, as long as the radio station is in one of the top 150 or so largest markets in the United States. Mediabase 24/7, mmr247.com, logs the daily playlists of radio stations across the U.S. and in some Canadian markets. StrikerforceTalk Review me! 21:17, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Proposal to standardize format labeling on FM stations using HD Radio subchannels[edit]

There is currently no information on the Project or Infobox template pages as to how to label formats on FM stations using HD Radio that run subchannels. The HD Radio section on the Project page only states to add (also on HD Radio) next to the frequency in the Radio Station infobox. Most editors, myself included, are simply adding the formats in the Format field, separated by line breaks and labeling them as "HD2", "HD3" and "HD4". However, others are adding the formats to the frequency field, and labeling them for example as "97.1-1", "97.1-2" and so on.

There is also disagreement as to whether the main channel format should be labeled “Analog/HD1” or perhaps “FM/HD1” or not at all. I suggest that we label the main program format with one of these labels. Another editor has stated to me that Analog/HD1 is assumed and therefore it should not be labeled. I don’t think we should be making that assumption, considering that most people don’t even know that HD Radio exists, much less how it works. With that in mind, leaving off the Analog/HD1 label might impart the idea in the reader’s mind that the main program is FM (analog) only, and that an HD Radio receiver would simply add the ability to listen to the subchannels. Including the label makes it obvious that the main program is offered “in HD” as well as “the old fashioned way” that they can already receive.

We should reach a concensus and update the Project page and the Infobox template, so it's clear to everyone where and how to add the formats and their labels.

Pageographer (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I have been using the same logic when editing FM stations with HD radio subchannels. It just makes sense to simply indicate in the frequency field that the frequency is available in HD. The formats indicate which format is available on each subchannel, and should not be intermixed in the frequency field. As for using "FM/HD1" in the format field, I have been doing this as well. Again, this just makes logical sense. We cannot assume that the reader has prior knowledge of HD radio and how it works. --DrChuck68 (talk) 14:26, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Agreed, HD subchannels are not different "frequencies" and so should not be listed in the "Frequency" field (any more than we list the analog FM stereo difference subchannel).
I'll support notation such as "FM/HD1: " introducing the main channel format with a separate line added for each of "HD2: ", etc. These and the text that follows them should be in default type (not italicized or bold, as the paramater name "Format:" is already in BF) nor should the format names.
It's worth mentioning here that in both the template and the body copy, per MOS:GENRECAPS, radio formats do not ordinarily get title case. E.g. "urban adult contemporary" is not a proper name (but some syndicated formats such as "Pride Radio" may be). The format name does get a leading cap in the usage here because it follows list item name that's demarc'd by a colon. Jeh (talk) 21:52, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
On air and over the air, HD Radio stations are ID'd as "HD1", "HD2", etc. The legal ID the FCC allows is "WXXX-FM and HD1" or "WXXX-HD2", for example. I would recommend that they be formatted as HD1, HD2, HD3, and HD4. Please note, there is not an HD5 or above in radio.
As for formats, per Jeh, I would move that to another thread. This is about HD Radio formatting, not radio formats themselves. - NeutralhomerTalk • 00:58 on April 30, 2018 (UTC)
"...there is not an HD5 or above..." That's not technically accurate. In theory, a radio station could split its HD channels as many times as they wanted to and they had the money to do so, but the down side to going beyond HD4 is the significant decrease in audio quality and signal strength with each additional channel. StrikerforceTalk Review me! 21:19, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

KAPY-LP no longer defunct[edit]

According to the article's title and text KAPY-LP is defunct, but according to the FCC's website this is no longer the case: https://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_det.pl?Facility_id=196829. I've posted information regarding this on Talk:KAPY-LP (defunct). Allreet (talk) 04:20, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Replied on the article talk page, but it's not the same FCC license, so it would need its own article. Mlaffs (talk) 00:53, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Two legacy page splits that should be merged[edit]

  • WCFL (AM)
  • WMAQ

These are two Chicago area stations that back before this project had a best practice on how to deal with this situation, had their 'more famed callsigns' split into their own page. Today, this doesn't happen with a simple sale and change of call letters, and as such these articles should be merged into the current call letters they carry regardless of the fame of the previous. Skybunny (talk) 22:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Okay, on further review I get why WMAQ and WSCR are considered separate entities. WSCR started in a weaker broadcast facility (predating WMAQ), bought out WMAQ's, took its call letters to WMAQ's frequency, and now broadcasts there. The succession is properly, by call letters (which after all is how articles are named and organized), that WMAQ died in 2000, and WSCR has existed from 1992-present (just on two different frequencies, one of which is WMAQ's former.) Skybunny (talk) 23:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Persistent vandalism of WDRV[edit]

IP editors keep putting back the program schedule & station directory of WDRV against WP:NOTRADIOGUIDE & WP:NOTDIRECTORY.Stereorock (talk) 04:58, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Call sign meanings[edit]

Was there any local consensus here to justify things like: KIEM (Keep Informed Every Minute) which doesn't follow the MOS:ACRO guideline: "Do not apply italics, boldfacing, underlining, or other highlighting to the letters in the expansion of an acronym that correspond to the letters in the acronym." It seems to me that most of these call signs are backronyms and that any attached meaning is a bit trivial. (Mind, now that I look, the backronym article also strays from this guideline.) – Reidgreg (talk) 19:30, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

I think somebody just started doing it.Stereorock (talk) 21:08, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
While it doesn't follow ACRO, is it something that we want to consider adopting for specific use with radio station articles? I would be supportive of such a guideline, if proposed. StrikerforceTalk 21:20, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
It's the way we've always done it since I've been here and that's bordering on 12 years. I would be supportive of a guideline in ACRO as well and in NMEDIA to cover all bases. - NeutralhomerTalk • 01:15 on July 26, 2018 (UTC)
A clean reader pool -EEng
  • No, we don't do that. Our readers do not have brain damage. See MOS:ABBR#Expanded forms, MOS:TEXT#Expanded forms of abbreviations. See also WP:CONLEVEL and WP:OWN policies; wikiprojects cannot make up their own pseudo-rules for "their" articles, against site-wide consensus like policies and guidelines.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  14:26, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
    How do you know our readers don't have brain damage, when it's clear that many of our editors do? EEng 21:45, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
    Cuz onlies us dain brammaged ones become editorz, and leave the clean reader pool behind. It's like voluntarily deciding to drink kerosene.  — SMcCandlish ¢ 😼  14:20, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
  • No The Letters are already Capitalized what more is needed? —DIYeditor (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
  • No. BTW, I usually despise list pages, but I think List of TV and Radio Call Signs That Stand For Something would be fun. WGBH=Great Blue Hills, WQED/KQED=Quod erat demonstrandum, KFOG in San Francisco, KRON=San Francisco Chronicle, WEEI=Edison Electric Illuminating, etc. EEng 21:51, 27 July 2018 (UTC)