Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Typography

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WikiProject Typography (Rated NA-class, Top-importance)
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Garamond in italic[edit]

Did Claude Garamond really cut this italic type?

I have a question for any experts, which I've duplicated on the reference desk. Here goes...

On Wikimedia Commons there's a photo of a page from a 1540 book, a French edition of Suetonius's Lives of the Twelve Caesars, and published by Robert Estienne. The typeface is identified as being an italic cut by French engraver Claude Garamond (or Garamont), after whom many modern fonts are named. It is used on many Wikipedia articles on Garamond and his typefaces in various languages-indeed, I put it on the English-language wiki before I got suspicious.

I'm a bit concerned about this image, since I have seen a lot of sources saying it is not clear Garamond cut italic type until the mid-1540s while working as a publisher himself. The French government article on Garamond says he 'perhaps' cut one for Estienne, so it has doubts too, and of course the one supposed to be by him might not even be this. Warde (1926) thinks no italics until after this book was printed. Two modern books on the topic which seem to be relevant are published by Dutch academic publisher Brill, which I know gives e-book licenses to Wikipedia. I don't feel this one query merits me applying for one, so can someone who has one of those licenses look them up? They're 'The palaeotypography of the French Renaissance. Selected papers on sixteenth-century typefaces. 2 vols' (Vervliet) and 'Dutch typography in the sixteenth century: the collected works of Paul Valema Blouw'. I've cited both on the Garamond article, but I've only been able to read the bits on Google Books. The answer may not be hard to find - Vervliet lists notable books which used each font he was able to attribute to a specific designer.

As for the image in question, I'm not convinced any deep scholarship has been done into it recently. It was bought by a collector in 1948 and transferred to Colorado College in 1981. Their website simply prints what the donor told them in 1981. (Claude Garamond is a well-known engraver of type, so my impression is that it was a bit too common in the past to attribute anything that looks nice in 16th century French printing to him without looking too closely at how it matched types he used in his own publications.)

I'm out of my depth here. I'm a sciences person with no formal qualifications or experience in historical research, printing, reading French-language sources or art history. But I feel that the attribution of this book to Garamond is more than doubtful and needs to be cleared up. Blythwood (talk) 07:21, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

As far as I know, a dear lady named Beatrice Warde, worked a long time at Monotype corporation ltd in London, she was interested in the same subject as mentioned above.
she published an article under her pseudonym Paul Beaujon: The true source of Garamond in doubt see: http://www.garamond.culture.fr/en/page/the_article_by_beatrice_warde
She conclused, that this font was from 17th century by Jean Jannon of Sedan. : ref: Judi Slinn, Sebastian Carter, Richard Southall, History of the Monotype Corporation, Printing historical Society, London, 2014, ISBN 978 0 900003-15-8, page 206
It is in a Fleuron published by Stanley Morrison, quite expensive to buy it second hand, but available free as a digital source.
There might be some of her articles to be found in the Monotype recorders of that time. I wonder whether those can be found digitized somewhere...
Does this help you?
Best wishes J.T.W.A.Cornelisse (talk) 17:19, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
On top of this, Monotype made two different italic fonts named Garamond... series 156 (=roman and italic) and series 174 (only italic)
The italic with number 156 has more of the old examples... Series 174 is designed more regular.
best wishes J.T.W.A.Cornelisse (talk) 22:11, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Latin alphabet listed at Requested moves[edit]

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[edit]

Does anyone know where this symbol should point to? If not an article about it then a redirect to somewhere appropriate?

It is what is generated when I try to enter a triple dagger symbol extended from the double dagger from page 2 of http://folk.uib.no/hnooh/mufi/proposals/n4704-medieval-punct.pdf

It also displays as ⁄ from page 7 of http://folk.uib.no/hnooh/mufi/pipeline/proposals/MUFIEingabeSSRQ-2011.pdf

Something related to the Medieval Unicode Font Initiative it seems. ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:17, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@ScratchMarshall: I just came to check out this WikiProject and it doesn't seem to be so active, so apologies for the very late response. The character you shared has a Unicode codepoint U+2E59. This means it is within the block Supplemental Punctuation. From the code chart, we can see that the 2E5 row is currently not assigned. From the first link you shared, this is meant to be part of an addition of medievalist punctuation to the Unicode standard (Universal Character Set actually, but it's the same for our purposes). So in conclusion, what it is meant to represent is the "triple dagger", but it would not be appropriate to actually create a redirect for it as it is not part of the Unicode standard and was only ever proposed, thus it currently doesn't mean anything to computers other than an arbitrary sequence of bytes. (the appropriate target would have been Dagger (typography)) The reason you see a box or slash is because that's what it was entered as in those PDFs, but your system fonts don't support such a character yet as there isn't anything there in Unicode. Hope that helped. Opencooper (talk) 06:35, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
maybe we should have an article explaining this rectangle symbol though. Like "this displays when an unrecognized character is used"? There must be a proper name for it. ScratchMarshall (talk) 18:36, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
It's known as tofu colloquially, and more technically the .notdef glyph (not defined) or a fallback glyph. I'm not sure tofu has been written about sufficiently enough to be notable, though there are the Noto fonts named after it. (the layman wouldn't know what to search for anyway other than "empty boxes" or something) It also wouldn't be feasible to redirect every character outside of the unicode standard as there's ton of empty space. It's just an issue that will have to be solved on the OS side, on Wikipedia with foreign character warning boxes, and through general user education since seeing tofu on its own only tells you that your font can't display the character. (either because fonts usually only cover a common range of characters, because the font is outdated as with emoji, or in our case, a codepoint outside of the unicode standard was entered so it would need a font specifically made for it or it isn't actually used) Opencooper (talk) 00:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Samples of monospaced typefaces listed at Requested moves[edit]

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Samples of serif typefaces listed at Requested moves[edit]

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Samples of sans serif typefaces listed at Requested moves[edit]

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Samples of script typefaces listed at Requested moves[edit]

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Samples of simulation typefaces listed at Requested moves[edit]

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Samples of display typefaces listed at Requested moves[edit]

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One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement![edit]

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Hello,
Please note that Page footer, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing!
Delivered by MusikBot talk 00:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team