Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 11

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Contents

Revamp {{gamecover}}

{{gamecover}} now allows users to enter a category to put the cover in. While this is a good thing it is implemented in the worst possible way. Currently it is in the form of [[:Category:{{{1}}}]] that forces the user to enter the entire category, allowing it to be put anywhere, such as Category:Furniture. I would like to propose that the category mechanism be changed to [[:Category:{{{1}}} game covers]] to force the use of "game covers" into the category to help maintain organization. The reason I don't do this myself is that they must be converted first before the template is changed, so we do not misplace them. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 03:53, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I've processed the gamecube and xbox categories. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Whoops, I should have realized that before. I had followed {{Logos}} too closely. I'll change them promptly. Robert 04:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I've made the same proposal on the {{logo}} talk page as well. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
That'll certainly teach me to read more carefully next time... Robert 04:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

We gotta cleanup Category:PlayStation 2 game covers game covers, there is still a bunch there. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 22:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've emptied it. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, now to tackle the few thousand images left in Category:video game covers. I've created a bunch of subcategories. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:10, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to get a bot to do it? Thunderbrand 20:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
My guess is no, since I don't think bots have the ability to "look" at an image and determine what system is on the cover. Correct me if I'm wrong though. Robert 23:23, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Possible but far too much work for so little result. Unless of course someone has an advance OCR engine they've been working on. All the work that a bot could do at this point has been done. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 01:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Eiji Shinjo and Chaos (Toshinden Character) have been AFD

they are up for deletion....--Dangerous-Boy 04:14, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Packaging artwork sections

I have sporadically uploaded packaging art for a number of articles over the past six months and put them in separate sections if the amount exceeds more than one (otherwise the sole cover would be placed in the infobox). But in light of the recent screenshot gallery discussion, I was wondering what the legality of these sections are? ~ Vic Vipr 12:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think they are ok. I have seen a lot of articles with sections devoted to different kinds of packaging art (such as all the Resident Evil games). Thunderbrand 13:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
They're okay as in theres no one going through every article and removing the galleries.....yet. --larsinio (poke)(prod) 14:37, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

3/4 top down view

How should I convey this in an article? Is there a wikilink to something? I am writing an article for The Adventures of Pinocchio (Game Boy) and am trying to figure out how to convey this view. For an example, here is one the screenshots I am using to show the perspective Image:PinocCastleLevel.JPG --MOE.RON talk | done | doing 17:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think Isometric projection would be the correct term. Thunderbrand 17:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Ah, yes, that should do just fine. Thanks and cheers mate! --MOE.RON talk | done | doing 17:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

List of songs involving computer and video games up for deletion

Nintendude has brough this GCOTW up for deletion. Please vote. --larsinio (poke)(prod) 18:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Fanfiction find

I recently found some articles linked to various other articles related to characters and concepts in computer and video games. They consist of non-notable fanfiction and it seems the author of all the articles is the creator of the series (User:Peachspirit). Should these be speedy deleted for vanity or what?

Mario Fantasy 7
Satna Palm Beach
Materia Hut
Melody Shroom
Supernova Limit Break
Melissa the Fox
Mario Fantasy
Maple Prower
Marina Prower
~ Hibana 23:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed them for deletion as non-notable fan fiction. --Muchness 00:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Poes

I have completed the articles on the Poe Sisters, Jalhalla, and the Spirit Guide a while back. Just wanted to mention it in case it helps. I'm big on Video Game Articles, and am at work on the Rayman Revolution one as we speak...

CS maps at AfD

Several CS maps have been nominated for deletion, namely de_dust, cs_siege, cs_assault, cs_italy, cs_militia, cs_office, cs_estate, de_aztec, de_inferno, de_nuke, de_cbble, as_oilrig, fy_iceworld, de_survivor, de_train, de_vertigo, cs_747, and cs_backalley. While I personally think they belong, I think this represents a chance to evaluate whether maps need their own articles. Aguerriero (talk) 19:33, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

All that effort to nominate all those articles and the Nom puts in a weak "I don't want them here" argument. *sigh*. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 00:41, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Goomba on Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates/Goomba

FYI, it's on Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates/Goomba. Issues about the article have been raised. Would some people from this WikiProject be interested in addressing these issues? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.190.53.168 (talkcontribs) 17:16, 20 May 2006 .

  • Update. It's now been defeatured. 172.190.156.78 20:07, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hadouken at AFD

Hadouken's up at AFD. I voted for keep because I think the Hadouken has entered a wider gaming consiousness than just a street fighter move. But I'm not too sure about dragon punch or hurricane kick which are also up. I personally don't think any of the articles are that great, very crufty and possibly OR, but I think as a subject matter, Hadouken is probably notable enough. - Hahnchen 15:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Piracy games list on AfD

List of piracy computer and video games has been nominated for deletion. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 05:47, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg

Are there enemies in the game besides crows? Can the egg get lost or destroyed? How does Billy end a level? I have never played the game, so I have no clue what the answers to those questions are. Could somebody please take a shot at providing more information to this game?

Deletion watch section

I've added a deletion watch section similar to the one we have at the Webcomics project. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 01:02, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. I noticed we've been getting a lot of "Random article" on AfD posts here: tracking it somewhere is a better solution. jacoplane 01:05, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Now if I can only remember where the deletion archive project is… Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 01:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Please add this text to the debates listed on the deletion listing:
* <span style="font-size: smaller;">Note: This debate has been added to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Deletion|list of CVG deletions]]. ~~~~</span>
Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 11:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

There's a proposal up to introduce categorisation into AfD itself. This would remove the burden on the Wikiproject to track all the AfDs and place it on the person submitting it for deletion. Makes sense IMO. jacoplane 16:38, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Portal

I played around with the colors of the portal. If anyone kan come up with a better color scheme please do so. (Colors are set on Portal:Computer and video games/box-header). jacoplane 20:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Umm, larsinio... that looks horrible IMO. jacoplane 21:02, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I like Jacoplane's better myself. Far less garish. --InShaneee 21:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. By the way, what was wrong with the old colors? Thunderbrand 00:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Nothing particularly wrong with them, personally I just didn't like the green very much, and I thought the page was a bit boring. jacoplane 00:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
True, but to thell you the truth I don't really go to the page much since you can't put fair use screenshots there. Thunderbrand 00:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't expect you to, but I presume it gets quite a lot of hits from casual users since it's featured so prominently on the Computer and video games article. jacoplane 00:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Heh, true also! Although I do like the colors as is right now. Thunderbrand 00:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

cvg-cleanup?

No one answered this before it was archived, so, again: Why does this project no longer have its own cleanup tag? It’s an extremely specialized area of knowledge, and non-gamers are liable to delete info or AfD articles they don’t consider relevant or notable if the regular {{cleanup}} tag is used. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 19:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. I don't even remember a cvg-cleanup tag. Thunderbrand 19:37, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
We could incorporate an article-rating field into the {{cvgproj}} tag, as the {{Chemistry}} or 1.0 project does, using their assessment scheme, with an additional "cleanup" tag. Nifboy 23:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea to me. --elias.hc 07:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Not a good idea. This is going to create an awful lot of new work in rating the articles, many of which would never make it into a Wikireader anyway. For rating articles, I would stick to Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Essential articles. Do any other projects have their own specialised cleanups? Because I think one of the main advantages of Wikipedia Cleanup is that it gives the article a wider reach. I wouldn't be against a cvg-cleanup tag though, but I'm not sure if I'd use it that much. - Hahnchen 16:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Krabs\d+

These sockpuppets are beginning to bother me. Is there anything we can do about them? Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure which sockpuppets you're referring to, but if you have a suspicion who they belong to you can request a WP:RFCU. jacoplane 00:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
See category Category:Wikipedia:Suspected sockpuppets of Krabs502. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Why isn't he banned? Or at least forced to use one account. In between some decent edits, he inserts reams and reams of shit vandalistic edits regarding WWE films, and ridiculous games based on medical documentaries. - Hahnchen 15:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This user is a known sockpuppet, but has not been blocked. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 01:03, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

{{cite video game}}

I'm working on a template to cite video games. I've copied it from {{cite web}}, but it still needs a lot of work at this point.

"Sorry, but the princess is in another castle!" [1]

^ Nintendo (1985-10-01). Super Mario Bros. NES. Nintendo. Level/area: \d-4. 

Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 02:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Video game character infoboxes

What all video game character infoboxes are there? The ones I know of include...

Crossover (e.g. game/anime) infoboxes

Should there be some sort of uniform styling, or even uniform naming? Should we consolidate some of them (I could probably make a consolidated FF infobox that can cover all games, using #if). - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I definitely think that some uniformity in this area would be a good thing. Having tons of seperate userboxes is just confusing, and it also forces someone who wants to use userboxes for a new series to design a whole new userbox. jacoplane 04:50, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. We should have just one infobox for all the characters. Thunderbrand 04:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I am mildly opposed to the idea (and character infoboxes in general). Once you get past name, image, first appearance, and creator, many of the remaining fields either consist of a complete lack of information (Mario) or random statistics the creators put in the manuals for flavor. The article on Ryu lists hitchhiking as a "special skill". The hell? Nifboy 05:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I'm all for ditching the trivia-laden infoboxes for a simpler template, with a name, image, first appearance, creator, and voice/motion actor fields, but doing that is going to take more than me being bold, since I'm going to be going against every single fanboy (who inevitably wants their favorite character's favorite food in the article) ever. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops)

Well, who will bell the cat? There's going to be a lot of fighting over eliminating "Favorite food" and "Official Amano artwork" and "Battle sprite" from a lot of these templates. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh, that is probably true. I dunno, we should wait for more input. Thunderbrand 05:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Well we've been discussing this on Template talk:King of Fighters character statistics. I personally seem to think the current design to be cookie-cutter and the CVG box overused. -ZeroTalk 06:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
The basic argument seems to be essentially over this design and this design. Both include the same syntaxes, only different designs. For article implementations, see here and here. I really don't have a problem with elimating some of these irrelevant data sections as well. -ZeroTalk 06:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It looks like {{CVG character}} was created a while back, then abandoned. Let's see if I can't whip it into a decent standard infobox to replace most of the above. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Test of a unified template

Mario
List of Mario games by year character
IIH.png
This isn't a picture of Mario, but I wanted an actual test image.
First game Donkey Kong
Voiced by See how the "(English)" parenthetical disappeared because japanactor is empty? It's infobox ninjutsu.
Motion capture Some fat guy, again, just testing the field.

So, how is this for a unified userbox for every single videogame character ever? Except for the Pokémon userboxes above (which I've similarly trimmed down, but I need to include concessions to their major anime/manga roles or else WP:PCP will lynch me), I don't see why this couldn't replace pretty much all of the game character infoboxes. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, while I'm thinking of it, are there any generically useful fields that could be added? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, a snazzy feature: the little parentheticals specifying "English" and "Japanese" don't appear unless you use both fields. Neat, huh? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, very neat ;) jacoplane 07:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
As cool as the unified template looks, just flicking through the previous templates makes me think it wouldn't work. Different game series care about different things, some fighting games care about style and their physical dimensions, whereas RPGs care about skills and classes. The only way a unified template would work is if it included almost every possible field, and I think it would be confusing to use. - Hahnchen 16:04, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Anything that is in the infobox that isn't referred to in the body probably shouldn't be in the infobox, and most of these RPG trivial stats and all of the fighting game trivia is never again mentioned in the body of the articles. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with that, I think the infobox can be used to mention quick short facts which do not have to be covered in the main body. I don't care for the game trivia in some of the infoboxes, no, but it's going to be nigh on impossible to convince some editors that a street fighter's height isn't important. And that's why I do not think a short universal infobox would ever fly. - Hahnchen 01:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, you're right in the case of the ESRB ratings and DOB/death for real people. *sigh* I just hate seeing all these ugly templates, laden with trivia. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Enough, what with the unified template

So, uh, how about some uniform styling or uniform names for all these templates? Right now, the names are unpredictable and the appearance varies from template to template. Any ideas? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Unified template, attempt two

Solid Snake
Metal Gear series character
IIH.png
This isn't a picture of Snake, but I wanted an actual test image.
First game Metal Gear
Created by Hideo Kojima
Designed by Some guy
Voiced by David Hayter
Motion capture Mizuho Yoshida
Fictional profile
Real name David
Aliases Iroquois Pliskin, Old Snake
Nationality U.S.A.
Affiliations Green Berets (during Gulf War), FOXHOUND (1995, 1999), CIA (exact time unknown), Philanthropy (2005-current)

Well, how about a unified template, then? This is an adaptation of {{CVG character}} above, but with the game-specific box converted into a subtemplate that meshes with the larger template.

This way, the boxes have a uniform appearance and always provide some basic, important info, but allow for game-specific fields.

Any thoughts? Any objections to me going ahead and adapting the above boxes into sub-boxes for this general-use-but-expandable template? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:49, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree with the inclusion of a standard template, but its too much to ask to make this a standard on the already exsisting ones (The CVG template design also shouldn't be used, these aren't boxes or screenshots, they're elaborated character articles).That said, I have created Template:Samurai Shodown character as the standard norm for the SNK character articles (Samurai Shodown, Buriki One, The Last Blade and The King of Fighters). Its already widespread used across a large majority of these articles and I have implemented it accordingly. Since there's a clear concensus that a standard template not be implemented as of yet, I'll request that my recent changes across the King of Fighters articles not be reverted; if a concensus has arisen that I acted in error, I'll revert myself. -ZeroTalk 19:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is it asking too much to standardize the infoboxes? If new articles are going to use the infobox, why shouldn't older ones? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia. We're not in the business of deciding which templates might annoy us and which might not. We're in the business of deciding which images are informative and what was the previous concensus, which is valid in this case. The users here can decide on the other question and use their judgement accordingly. -ZeroTalk 19:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I also note that User:A Man In Black had taken to reverting similar changes I had made awhile back with rollback as if it were simple vandalism. Its not, and had it occur again we'll take it up on WP:AN/I as appropriate.
You replaced YET ANOTHER fork of the KOF infobox, without comment on the talk page. I don't think that's an inappropriate use of rollback. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Until a clear and agreeable template is agreed upon and action is taken to implement on a mass scale, inserting it as such into any articles is not yet appropriate. -ZeroTalk 19:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Er, so until the template is put into all of the articles ("action is taken to implement on a mass scale"), it shouldn't be put into any articles? I was going to do the heavy lifting on converting infoboxes over to the general box with a sub-box anyway; it won't take a lot of work, just a quick rework and some substing. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, a feature of this box I didn't mention: it can include multiple sub-boxes, for characters who appear in very different series. (For example, you could include both the Tekken and Soul Caliber sub-boxes in Heihachi's article.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

All valid points. I just wish to stay consistent. Let's wait and see what the third opinons say. If the concensus is to use the standard infobox, I most certainly will revert myself. And I like the fact the standard infobox can operate on variable info bars, I just find the design appalling.-ZeroTalk 20:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
What do you find appalling about it? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm surprised you have to ask. I find it appalling that you consider the character articles as flat, dull and as uniform as the video game articles and that it must be used on three different categories of articles. I'm appalled you find it necessary to slap clean-up tags on articles more than germans hand out flyers for Oktoberfest and not lifitng a finger to fix them yourself. I'm appalled that you think the wikpedia is the place for these antics. And I find it appalling you insert replies in between statements on talkpages, which makes it very difficult to follow conversation and sometimes rendered the nearby text unreadable.
In the meantime, I'm logging off to attend a meeting and I'll check back in a few hours (should probably get some sleep as well). I spammed the talkpages of some members, so third opinions should come in soon. We'll see how it goes. And, please can you clean up articles more in the future rather than assuming others will..? I spend most of my time these days fixing whatever article you've tagged and I'm aware you're knowledgeable enough to do it.-ZeroTalk 20:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
We have a unified appearance class for infoboxes so everyone can customize all of the infoboxes in their personal style sheet, just like we have functionality to allow people to customize the way dates appear for themselves. If you think the unified appearance is awful, then either change your style sheet or get the infobox appearance class changed, instead of fighting over every single instance.
I don't see what the use of the cleanup tag has to do with anything, and I don't particularly feel the need to defend my use of it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I really don't see a valid reason on why you changed zero's previous infoboxes. They were all wikicoded and worked find. Your boxes are just plain ugly and they aren't easy for the eyes to look at.--Dangerous-Boy 20:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Most of the time, I was remerging them because he changed parameter names gratuitously (such as from "image" to "image1", breaking articles with no increase in functionality) often reinserting misspelling or caps problems that impede functionality, because he reverted/forked without discussion (we're up to the fourth fork now), or because he reverted back in a problem that took a lot of work to fix (such as replacing hiddenStructure with #if.)
I've used rollback on infobox changes that restored typos, bad grammar, or other such problems. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:04, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
This isn't vandalism, it's normal editing. The template was disputed, and apparently not accepted, especially on a large scale. If someone thinks they should go back I'll be glad to replace them.
Currently, the concensus is that their use has not been accpeted in the community. Until then, this template should definitely not be used.-ZeroTalk 04:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see a consensus supporting your template, yet you have no problem reverting my changes. It seems you want the status quo, as long as the status quo is your way. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
{{{name}}}
{{{image}}}
{{{caption}}}
Creator(s) {{{creator}}}
Owner {{{owner}}}
Voice Actor(s) {{{voice actor}}}
Motion capture actor(s) {{{motion actors}}}
First appearance {{{first appearance}}}
Series {{{series}}}

I'm developing a fresh one here. I'm not worrying about the style at the moment, I want to figure out what fields are needed.

{{infobox video game character
| name = 
| image = 
| caption = 
| creator = 
| owner = 
| voice actor = 
| motion actors = 
| rst appearance = 
| series = 
}}

Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - I have no idea what the problem is with the MiB's unified template design. It echoes the Game infobox, and now there's a "In-Universe" section, you're not going to lose any of the previous detail that was in before, like favourite shoe or whatever. However, the fields after the In-Universe line would be entirely user-created right? Wouldn't that make it a bit harder for someone say creating an article for a new character in an established series? Whereas before they could just use the Elder Scrolls character template or whatever, they'd have to use the unified one, and then find out what in-universe information it needs. I'm not sure why Cyberskull is coming up with another unified template though, what's wrong with MiB's? Whereas I would appreciate the consistency offered by a unified infobox, I'm not sure if it's worth all the effort. However, I'm sure most benefits from it would occur in the future, when people want more character infoboxes. - Hahnchen 04:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the uniform template should only cover a series or a franchise. Can't use the same stats for final fantasy characters like you can on Tekken characters.--Dangerous-Boy 07:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC
I paticularly like Cyberskull's design for new character articles. Its neat and fairly unique to the source material. Per Dangerous-Boy's asute comment, I also think that when creating boxes for intertwined franchises, one box should used. All the FF boxes should be merged into one and used like Template:SNK character, which is implemented in the The King of Fighters, Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Samurai Shodown, The Last Blade and Buriki One character articles, creating a "franchise template". That would be appropriate when making character articles for the same company, unless the data fields are drastically different. I'm planning to implement the Street Fighter template into the Darkstalkers articles, for example.-ZeroTalk 11:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
You could probably implement a capcom fighter's template for SF, darkstalkers, rival schools, Saturday Night Slam Masters, and final fight characters. Also, maybe merge the soul series and tekken into a namco fighter's template or use it for all namco characters.--Dangerous-Boy 18:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. The template I made uses a supertemplate, {{General CVG character}}, then a sub-template that fits inside the box created by that template. If you look above, the Solid Snake example uses both the superbox ({{General CVG character}}) and the subbox ({{Metal Gear character}}). That way, you can make your own series-specific in-universe stat section, but still use the standard appearance and include the standard info. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Now, since this is getting tangled...

As for using a subtemplate for in universe stuff, that is fine with me. The reason I did mine the way I did is because regional parameters are a bad idea. We can always put more than one actor in the field if need be, the same way we do with release dates. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 07:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I made the Japan field to make conversion easier, and because Japanese voice actors are so common. If you don't want language-specific voice actor fields, just don't use japanactor; the "(English)" automatically disappears if japanactor isn't in use. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:44, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
But what about German or French actors? We would have to have fields for them too in that case. (Not to mention Spanish, Korean…) Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 00:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Generally, Spanish/German/French/Esperanto/etc. voice actors don't really belong on the English Wikipedia, unless the game was originally in Spanish (or German or French or whatever). (I really don't like massive lists of the voice actors in EVERY SINGLE LANGUAGE EVER; I prefer English and the original language.) If it's going to be English and Fooinese because the game was originally in Fooinese, just use "voiceactor=Bill Placeholder (English), James Foobar (Fooinese)" without using japanactor. (Like I said, when there's no japanactor, there's no "(English)" parenthetical in the first column. I changed the Mario example above to show off this functionality.) I've got a strictly optional Japanese field to make conversion of older boxes easier and because so many games were originally in Japanese.
If this is a big deal, I could easily make a user-customizable language field or two (allowing you to use whatever language you like); it wouldn't make the box significantly more difficult to use. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:43, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
A single language actor field simply solves the problem. We don't need to show any preferences to any language that way (this also makes the template easier to port to other wikis). There's nothing complicated about it. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Right now, the template lets you have your cake and eat it too. If you don't use japanactor, voiceactor works perfectly as a general-purpose voice actor field, with no preference to English. (Look at the Mario example above.) It's trivially easy to accomodate both, so I just did that. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 11:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Style argument

Please argue about the CVG infobox styling (e.g. {{SNK fighter}} vs. variable color / borderless (e.g. {{SNK character}}) here.

Obviously, I prefer the former, since it allows for a unified appearance which can be customized by each user in that user's personal stylesheet. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Unified vs. standalone vs. hybrid templates

What I was trying to do with {{General CVG character}} is make a template that always includes the basic real-world information about the character (image, name, creator, etc.) but also allows for a section for in-universe information. The way it includes the in-universe information is by using a series-specific sub-template, which meshes into the box.

Here's how it works:

{General CVG character
|name=Solid Snake
|image=Image:IIH.png|250px
|caption=This isn't a picture of Snake, but I wanted an actual test image.
|firstgame=Metal Gear
|series=Metal Gear series
|creator=Hideo Kojima
|artist=Some guy
|voiceactor=David Hayter
|japanactor=Akio Otsuka
|motionactor=Mizuho Yoshida
|inuniverse=
{Metal Gear character
|realname=David
|aliases=Iroquois Pliskin, Old Snake
|nationality=U.S.A.
|affiliations=Green Berets (during Gulf War), FOXHOUND (1995, 1999), CIA (exact time unknown), Philanthropy (2005-current)
}

}

The blue text is the supertemplate, which covers the real-world info. The rest text is a sub-template that fits into the box created by the supertemplate, filling in any in-universe info. If necessary, multiple sub-templates could be used (say, a Earthbound series box and a SSB series box for Ness).

Does this make sense? Does anyone have any objections to me implementing this once we settle on a unified style? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If anyone would like, I'm prepared to go ahead and implement this in an article or two, for demonstration's sake. I've already got a page ready to convert all of the Metal Gear articles just by adding "subst:" to the beginning of the template. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:53, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Neat. I approve. Nifboy 04:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Can't you make easier on the eyes. the appearance is just plain ugly.--Dangerous-Boy 19:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Argue about appearance above. Right now, I'm working on technical wizardry to get it out of the way. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Would anyone mind if I used Solid Snake as a testbed? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you create a subpage and copy the article there instead?--elias.hc 21:41, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Because I already did that up this page. I wanted to try the template out in article space...best case, there's more useful input from people who watch articles instead of project pages, worst case, it's reverted or disliked and no info is lost anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Fine. At least I will not revert your edit(s). Go ahead. --elias.hc 21:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll give it a day or so, then I'll go ahead. (I've already got a template made to make the conversion easy.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I went and implemented it in Solid Snake. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks great. --elias.hc 18:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, with a lack of further comment or objection, I'm going to go ahead and convert {{Metal Gear Character}} over to the new templates. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to start going about transferring non-controversial cases over to the new template, using the same method (convert a major character to test, go ahead with a full conversion if there's no objection). This is assuming noone here has any further objection. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:06, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Suikoden Characters (all 200+ of them)

I'd like some input as to how to deal with the bajillions of characters linked to off of 108 Stars of Destiny. I've been redirecting some of the more minor dead-end articles back there (from Rina (Suikoden): Suikoden II: Rina is the sister of Eilie and Bolgan. The Trio are a travelling circus, and Rina is seen as the "seductive" sister). However, I was reverted with the mysterious comments "Don't mislead people into thinking it's done" and "Counter-productive". Quite frankly, I'd be fine if we didn't have any info at all on these exceedingly minor characters, and we certainly don't need articles on every last one of them. Nifboy 20:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. Rework 108 Stars of Destiny into a List of Pokémon characters-esque list of minor characters, and redirect all of these there? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:05, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
At least most of them are redlinks, but it gets complicated as some characters appear in multiple games (and thus might have a backstory?) whereas others don't. I have never played any of the Suikoden games, I didn't even know it was based on the Chinese classic Water Margin until I read that. But I think they'd be better off merged by game, with maybe recurring characters or main characters having their own article. They can't seriously have strong detailed backstories for 108 protaganists per game can they? - Hahnchen 01:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. Most Suikoden characters don't have enough character development to deserve their own article. I think they belong on a "normal list" (such as List of Mavericks). Kil (talk) 12:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Infobox Code Generator

I have created a javascript-based CVG Infobox generator. Its purpose is to speed up the time making new infoboxes, and to re-use information entered for the article's categories and stub categories. Errors on my part notwithstanding, this should help us with the unexciting process of adding infoboxes and finding just the right wikilinks and categories to an article. For the ultra-lazy, there's even an "Add Article introduction" option which will do just that, based on given information.

By no means am I a javascript expert and I'm sure my code could use much optimization, but for the most part it seems to work quite well. Anyone who wishes to edit it and improve it is more than welcome to (just share with the rest of us, please). Any bugs found or suggestions for improvements can also be put on my talk page. I promise nothing, but will do my best to implement any changes or fixes.

Usage of the generator is pretty much self-explanatory, though a link to a help text is available at the top. Note that while some sections require you to just type in or select one option, others have their own textarea with (temporary) output. These can also be typed in without any selected option.

If this generator gains enough approval, I'd like to suggest it be linked to the infobox template page. If not, that's fine, I'll add a link to my user page or something. Anyone else who would like to host the page is also more than welcome to. The page purposefully uses no external documents, so if you would like to save it to your own computer, the one page is all you need. I hereby present to you, version 1.0 of the CVG Infobox Maker. Enjoy! --ADeveria 23:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

That's awesome, good work :) jacoplane 00:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Shiiiny... I dig it. Nifboy 00:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I like it! Nice work. Thunderbrand 02:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
180px? Meant to be just-about-any-value or a guideline I don't know about? (great work of course) --elias.hc 04:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Things needed:

Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 08:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments! The page has now been updated with improved PC platforms (see the first three platform links and the first two options in the drop-down list) and I've added the CERO rating. As for 180px...I forgot where that came from, probably some sample page. If a different default is appropriate, I'll gladly change it. :) --ADeveria 13:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Update: Version 1.02 is now out with quite a few more improvements, for the changelog view the page's source (at the top). Enjoy! --ADeveria 22:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
You might want to use the flagicon template. See MvC1 for an example. --elias.hc 19:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah yes, I forgot about that templete. Will implement it on next edit, thanks. --ADeveria 16:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Really good work. Although i must admit that Its faster for me to just copy paste the infobox code than using a gui, although this is excellent in keeping genres in line with computer and video game genre and good for the n00bs. --larsinio (poke)(prod) 19:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! Yes, I knew it was going to be a bit of a challenge to make its use actually worth somebody's time...personally I feel the following points make it worth my own time to use:
  • Replication of information - Especially when auto-generating categories and stub categories
  • Certainty that links are correct - Searching for correct genre articles and categories used to drive me nuts
  • Consistency among infoboxes
To each his own of course, though if you can think of anything to still make it better, I'd be glad to give it a try. --ADeveria 21:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: Version 1.03 now adds CVG company categories, too (and has changelog link at top for other changes). Also, I've created a page for further wishes, bugs or comments. --ADeveria 22:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
UPDATE: Version 1.04 This will be the last update announcement here, if anyone would like to keep up with further improvements, add the CVG InfoboxMaker page to your to your watchlist. Thanks! --ADeveria 20:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks so much for your effort ADervia, keep it coming ;) jacoplane 20:25, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Cult computer and video games

I was wondering if this category and article is sanctioned by WP:CVG? It seems a bit vague and open for POV. Comments? ~ Vic Vipr 14:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how there's any relation between poor sales and potential for cult, as the article claims. Both the article and the category lack a basis the way I see it. --elias.hc 14:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I think it's a pretty poor POV article. But looking at the "cult xxx" articles, they all seem kind of similar (although slightly better). You can describe anything as a cult can't you? Look at the list of cult television, so I'm not sure how we're meant to classify things. Are cult games just games that didn't sell all that well but were critically acclaimed? If so, then Killer7 shouldn't be there, because no one liked it. I'm not sure how Hitman: Codename 47 is cult at all. Surely, the entire emulation scene and thus all arcade games could be identified as cult games. So in conclusion, I'm not a fan of the category but I don't think there's anything you can really do about it. You'll probably end up in edit wars over what's cult and what's not. - Hahnchen 15:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

General Structure of articles on game characters

First of all, I've just signed up for this project, so hi.

Secondly, a question: Is there considered to be "standard" format for an article on a video game character, at present? The articles I've seen so far are fairly diverse -- Mega Man for example, lists the character's history first, whereas Proto Man lists a chronology of appearances before even touching on the character within his fictional universe (except in the introduction). Mario has development-related info spread out thoughtout various sections relating to appearance, personaility, etc; Link is featured, but doesn't have much on his real-world history, apart from documenting the differences between his various incarnations. Is there any recommended template on this stuff, or for that matter, should there be? I might be wrong, but it seems like if this project discussed, voted on, and came up with a sort of suggested template, it would be a godsend. -- Lee Bailey(talk) 18:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a lot of the character articles do not follow a specific order of info. I think that is one of the things we need to work on. Articles on games have a specific order, but not every game uses this. I think that is more of a guideline than official policy. Thunderbrand 18:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The information that exists in the article determines its organization. I think that's the mose common-sense answer I can give you. If Protoman doesn't have much of a history section it's because he doesn't have much of a history (or nobody has written about it in a way that matches up with the games). Nifboy 18:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I assume this would have to be a guideline rather than a policy, as not every character would have all information available. But I think it would be worth working on for the articles that could use it. This project seems like the right place to discuss it. -- Lee Bailey(talk) 19:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I would rather have a diverse range of article formats, if they all work. Me, I would rather make sure I have all the information I want, and then organize it into a cohesive structure. And that's going to be different for every article. You can't write the Protoman article like the Mega Man article, because Protoman and Megaman are two different things with vastly different sets of available information. Nifboy 01:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that if a diverse range of formats all work, that's a good thing. Unfortuately, a ton of articles on game characters that don't seem to have structures that work at all. I can't see the harm in suggesting a format for anyone who wants to use it, based on the types of information that are generally, if not always, available for a game character. Wikiproject:Film, Wikiproject:Television, and many others have something similar. -- Lee Bailey(talk) 03:22, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

User-created images

Image:Mariocomparison9.jpg is a compilation of three images of Mario throughout the SSB series. It was originally licensed under GDFL, which got removed. Question: Would this be fair use promo art or fair use cvg image? Also, can the creator of the compilation take any credit at all - can he or she, for instance, release his changes - the text and layout - to the GFDL? See Image:Samuscomparison2.jpg and Image:Linkcomparison6sa.jpg for other such images. I think these are really great images that need to be kept. Hbdragon88 04:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I would tag it with {{Fairusein}} and explain in the description. As I understand it, you can tag the "original work" (text and layout) as GFDL, but that doesn't change the fact that the rest of its contents (hence, the image as a whole) are copyright Nintendo and, hence, fair-use. Image:Sonics.PNG is an older example. Nifboy 06:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
From Fair use:
"The first factor questions whether the use under consideration helps fulfill the intention of copyright law to stimulate creativity for the enrichment of the general public, or whether it aims to only "supersede the objects" of the original for reasons of, say, personal profit. In order to justify the use as fair, one must demonstrate how it either advances knowledge or the progress of the arts through the addition of something new. A key consideration is the extent to which the use is interpreted as transformative, opposed to as merely derivative. When Tom Forsythe appropriated Barbie dolls for his photography project "Food Chain Barbie", Mattel lost its claims of copyright and trademark infringement against him because his work effectively parodies Barbie and the values she represents (cf. the 2003 9th Circuit case Mattel Inc. v. Walking Mountain Productions). However, when Jeff Koons tried to justify his appropriation of Art Rogers' photograph "Puppies" in his sculpture "String of Puppies" with the same 'parody' defense, he lost because his work was not presented as a parody of Rogers' photograph in particular, but of society at large, which was deemed insufficiently justificatory (see Art Rogers v. Jeff Koons, 960 F.2d 301). Thus, even if a secondary work proves transformative, it must be appropriately so."
It seems to me that these images are really just derivative works and not transformative. Therefore I'm not sure we can claim them as fair use. jacoplane 06:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I think the compilation image is no different than putting the three images into one article, and claiming fair use on all three images. Yes, you have a weaker case with three images as opposed to one, but the compilation thereof itself serves an informative purpose that compensates. The Sonics image above replaced two separate sonic images on that article, since we couldn't agree which should go at the top. Nifboy 06:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
My understanding is that compilations/collages can only be made using free licensed images that allow modification or images in the public domain. No fairuse. K1Bond007 07:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I just realized that the Melee and Brawl images are clearly promotional material but that the Bros. image is clearly from the game. THis makes it more difficult. Should it then be tagged with cvgshot or promo? Hbdragon88 20:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Categorization of games per gameplay elements

There's a discussion on Talk:Cooperative gameplay that could probably use more input from the Wikiproject. The cooperative gameplay article currently contains a list of games that support this kind of gameplay. There is a suggestion to remove the list and creating a category for all games that have a co-op mode (Something like "Category:Computer and video games supporting cooperative gameplay"). I don't think that we have any categories like this yet, at least browsing through Category:Computer and video games I couldn't find any. If we do this then presumably we would want to create other similar categories too. Is this a good idea, or are we pushing the categorization scheme too far here? Input most appreciated. jacoplane 07:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

So long as we don't make "Category:Single-player computer and video games". Nifboy 07:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
For this one instance, I don't think it's so bad. I don't really want to see frivolous categories based on gameplay though (e.g., Category:Computer and video games where the player cannot jump) :D, you know? Even ones like "single player only games" or "multiplayer only games" etc seem rather frivolous. I must say that the category title is quite long though - but that's a different subject altogether. K1Bond007 07:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The Metal Slug arcade games were all moved to Category:Metal Slug arcade series, which is a subcategory of Category:Computer and video games featuring cooperative gameplay. It is also a subcategory of Category:Run and gun computer and video games. I oppose this move because it seems to go against the guidelines for categories. See the example about French revolutionaries. Also, this isn't an obvious subcategory. If you see Metal Slug arcade games, it won't be clear that you shouldn't add run and gun and co-op unless you actually go into the categories and see how they're organized. Besides, while all Metal Slug arcade games thus far have been run and gun coop affairs, there's no guarantee this will always be the case. I think we remove the Metal Slug category from being a subcategory of both and move the games directly into the categories. TO prevent an edit war, I'm running it by the project first. Ace of Sevens 06:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I modified the articles in question, and I hold that this was proper behavior both in this case and in general. When a series of games holds so consistently to a style or genre over so many games, applying categorization attributes to the series category makes the most sense, if only to consolidate listings in heavily-populated parent categories. The French revolutionary example, given explicity as an exception to the general rule, does not apply well here, since using an explicit franchise subcategory in no way obscures the members' significance to the parent but in fact elevates them by name. I give Category:Platform games as an example of what I think we should try to achieve with other prominent categories. I'll refrain from futher category changes until some consensus is reached. --Heywood 17:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Warcraft map for deletion

I added Europa (warcraft) to the list of CVG games up for deletion, but I also wanted to add a note here that it is unfortunate that the treatment of this editor in AfD will probably cause him to leave Wikipedia. While I think the article should stay, it almost certainly will be deleted; that is not really the point though. User:ShadowZach is a new user, and unfortunately his first encounter with the Wikipedia community was people using AfD jargon and generally biting him. Granted, he didn't seem to thoroughly read the guidelines for new articles, but I feel that these people should be invited in for a hot cup of coffee, not have the door slammed on their knuckles. I hope he decides to stick with it and check out our project, because I think he could become a good editor of CVG articles. Aguerriero (talk) 21:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree - Kittybrewster 18:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, AFD is probably the worst place to get be introduced with as a beginner. AFD people tend not to be very nice due to the sheer number of articles that are nominated and the number of fancruft and nonnotable artilces they get. Hbdragon88 00:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The ... vote

I've removed the word "The" from all the console/handheld articles that start with it. It just sounds wrong, and having it's say "PlayStation 3 is blablabla..." looks better if you ask me. Place either '''With "the"''' ~~~~ or '''Without "the"''' ~~~~ in the vote field below, thank you. Havok (T/C/c) 14:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I changed the layout of the voting area so it's a bit more readable. Just put your signature under the appropriate section. --Poiuyt Man talk 22:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Update: For more discussions about this subject, please read what has been said on the Wii article. Havok (T/C/c) 22:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Without "the"

With "the"

Unknown?

  • Kittybrewster 18:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • This is a trivial matter - Hahnchen 00:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Whatever. Optichan 17:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Per Optichan. jacoplane 18:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Meow

With "the" only if used with replacing word, e.g. "the console", otherwise without

Discussion

  • This is ridiculous. -ZeroTalk 17:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Was it wise to make such a change without discussing it beforehand? You made essentially a grammatically incorrect edit to how many articles? Unless a direct object is a person, you always precede it with an article such as "a" or "the". You wouldn't say, "Please hand me PlayStation 3." You would say, "Please hand me the PlayStation 3." or "Please hand me a PlayStation 3." Aguerriero (talk) 18:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
      • It's not grammatically incorrect, you can use which ever you feel like. And ofcourse you don't say "Hand me PlayStation 3", but this is not a conversation or a request, it's the beginning of an article. So, writing "The PlayStation 3 is Sony's..." is just as correct as "PlayStation 3 is Sony's...". It has been discussed before, and yes I did wrong in not starting this poll before I changed it, and I have allready said I am sorry for that fact. I have also stated that I will change it to whatever consensus comes down to. Havok (T/C/c) 22:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, actually, it is grammatically incorrect, but it's common speech, so it sounds correct. Technically, if you said, "hand me the PlayStation3", the other person would be correct to ask, "the PlayStation3 what?" ;) RadioKirk talk to me 23:45, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused; are you saying it's correct to include the article or exclude it? At any rate, you are wrong. Read any book on grammar. In fact, read article (grammar). Words like "the" are used to modify nouns, as in "the PlayStation". In your example, you are suggesting that placing "the" in the sentence "hand me the PlayStation3" is effectively turning the word "PlayStation3" into an adjective, which is absurd. If someone said to you, "I'm going to wash the car." would you be inclined to say "You're going to wash the car what?" No. Well, not if you understand English grammar. Aguerriero (talk) 23:55, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I've read many books on grammar over my 40-plus years on this rock; what you seem to be doing is transposing a noun onto a title. "PlayStation3" is a title; "the PlayStation3 console" is a noun phrase. For instance, "the Captain Jack Sparrow" would be incorrect, while "the captain" is proper because it references the person (implying, in full, "the captain of the ship") rather than his title. RadioKirk talk to me 00:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
That might be so, but in the context we are discussing here it isn't incorrect grammer. You can use the "The" or not. And you are basically saying that Nintendo are ignoring grammer when they speak of Wii? Check their website, they never use "The Wii" except when refeering to "The Wii remote" or "The Wii controller". I never stated this was about propper grammer, that has been brought up by everyone else. This is about the fact that not putting in "The" - in my opinion - looks better. That is the only reason for this vote, nothing more. Havok (T/C/c) 00:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The argument is more correctly titular than grammatical. Again, if the title does not include "the", then we don't include "the"—simple as that. Only when you venture out of the titular and into noun phrases, as within your examples from Nintendo's website ("the Wii controller") is "the" proper. RadioKirk talk to me 00:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Was this discussed here previously? I seem to have missed it. Straw polls such as this should only be initiated after reaching consensus through normal talk page discussion has failed. jacoplane 18:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree that there should have been discussion first. Thunderbrand 19:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Considering the last consensus was apparently reached on the Wii article(?), I thought it would be ok to add a poll here where we can all discuss it. Havok (T/C/c) 23:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Read my reply two up. Havok (T/C/c) 19:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Simply put, if you look at the nameplate on the unit and "the" isn't there, then it doesn't belong there. When referring to a non-tilular noun (e.g., "the PlayStation console" or "The Wii controller") in such a case, only then is "the" grammatically appropriate—or correct. RadioKirk talk to me 23:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
This all really just applies to the given situation. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 07:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
And last I checked it was this situation we where discussing. Not if it was grammatically correct or not in any regard. As ridiculous and trivial as it might be, it is still a decision which must be taken. Havok (T/C/c) 08:02, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Standards for Video game console pages

We need to develop standards for video game console pages. looking at Xbox 360 to Playstation 3 to Nintendo Gamecube to TurboGrafx 16/PC Engine, there are no real set standards of sections. Much of the content is in parallel, but much of it is not. Things i think shoudl be included:

  • Infobox
  • Key games, first party/2nd/third party developers
  • Sales/marketing sucess/failure information
    • IN terms of competitors for contextual video game system generation
  • Accessory information
  • Hardware information
  • Developmental history
  • Key people involved
  • Online service (if any)

--larsinio (poke)(prod) 18:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Left Behind: Eternal Forces flamewar

It would be good te get some feeback from more people on this article. I had protected it since there was a revert war going on, but I think some more opinions are needed on the subject. jacoplane 21:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

PlayStation 3 image

There is a huge debate on whether a free image of the PS3 should be used, or a promo one. The problem with the free one is that it's void, it's the old mockup of the system shown at E3 2005. Now that a new version of the system has been released it would be missleading to use the old one. Go to the PS3 talk page and give your opinion on this. Havok (T/C/c) 11:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sonic ?

Can their be a Sonic the Hedgehog wiki. From A person J Jun 8 2006 5:45

You can create your own using the Wiki software. However, it will be independent from Wikipedia.--Zxcvbnm 22:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

{{cat year nav}}

I'm overhauling {{cat year nav}}. Since it is used primarily by this project I was wondering if later on I could get some help updating the categories that use it. I'm converting it to a ParserFunctions based template and it will eventually break the current usage. I am eliminating several parameters and repurposing/renaming others. The benefit of all this is that there will be fewer parameters and it will be more flexible. On a side note, I'm working on a way for it to handle BC/BCE dates as well. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 13:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is the new usage (filled in with example):
{{cat year nav
| m = 1
| c = 9
| d = 9
| y = 9
| cat = computer and video games
| sortkey = Computer and video games
| article = Computer and video games
| in = video gaming
}}
Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 22:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
It's done. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering what the letters stood for - looked like latin to me at first (m=1000, c=100… but d=500 (x=10) and y is nothing (i=1)). So what do they actually stand for? --elias.hc 07:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Millenium, century, decade and year. Poulsen 07:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
That makes way more sense than I expected. Thanks for the answer. --elias.hc 09:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

ESRB Ratings

I think it would be very helpful if we included the rating descriptors in every article, along with what the editors find the best example of the inappropriate(sp) parts of the game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwerasdfzxcvvcxz (talkcontribs)

I only think just the rating in the infobox is sufficent. What the editors find innapropriate would generally be someone's POV, and the game would have to have a lot of publicity from many sources or controversy to mention that a part of it is innapropriate, not just us Wikipedians. Thunderbrand 14:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
I hate how I get automatically loged off after a while of not doing anything. Back to the point, you have a point, but at least we could include the rating descriptors from the ESRB. But those are just the ESRB POV.Qwerasdfzxcvvcxz 13:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I would go for ratings alone. Havok (T/C/c) 13:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I have submitted an article for peer review

I have placed Seven Samurai 20XX (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for peer review. I paticularly regard this article as important, as it the very first contribution I made to wikipedia. Any comments on its improvement would be appreciated. -ZeroTalk 14:36, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added the assesment to the {{cvgproj}}

I've added the assessment system to {{cvgproj}} from the anime project banner. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 22:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Also mind the new category: Category:Computer and video game articles by quality. Also mind that the ratings you give articles are case-sensitive; If you set class=stub the template will show stub-class but won't add the category; you need to set class=Stub. Nifboy 03:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Heh. Overnight, you've suddenly become Wikipedia's #2 worklist in terms of size ;-) Kirill Lokshin 12:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Uh, is that good or bad? Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
It's great, actually; more assessment is always better. (It does provide a good example of some of our systemic bias issues, though; taken together, "Computer and video games" and "Anime and manga" have more articles than "Military history".) Kirill Lokshin 19:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm hoping I can take that to mean we haven't done that much fighting ;) Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've implemented {{{importance}}} into the banner (and had several people post angry complaints and threats on my talk page for doing so many edits). So anyways {{{importance}}} should be fully usable and the template should ignore tagging non-article talk pages. If anything is not working let me know or post it on the banner's talk page. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 06:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Who Asseses?

I just noticed all the articles I started (i.e. video game publisher, video game developer, game tester, game programming, game programmer & game producer) were given a rating of B with the assesment template. While I normally wouldn't mind this, it looks like the tag was added and the B rating given as a template grade. That is, the template was added to all the articles at the same time, and they were all given a "B." Who asseses the articles? What's missing from the aforementioned articles that makes them B and not A? Was B selected as a generic starting point? — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Four things. One, we have a list of essential articles that's already rated a couple hundred articles, of which all of the above have been given various shades of B. Two, the 1.0 assessment scale puts A-class above GA-class, and none of the above articles are even GA-class yet. Third, none of the above articles have references, a requirement for GA (and by extension A-class). Fourth, I'd like to do what the anime/manga project is doing with A-class: discussed and determined by the project's concensus as a whole. Therefore, B-class is the highest rating that a single editor can give to an article. Nifboy 23:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
That's what I've been using. I haven't assigned any A class since the essential articles page says it's not the same as the regular a class. I'll add some additional cases to the template for lowercase. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I think it's a good idea to swap the essential articles format over to the 1.0 ratings, now that there's a significant difference (A-class above GA). Nifboy 01:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Ubisoft Screenshots?

I've recently found out that screenshots of games owned by a Ubisoft are now under a free license, according to commons:User:Avatar/Ubisoft. Is this true?--TBC (aka Tree Biting Conspiracy) 09:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes (checked the german discussion). --elias.hc 11:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose we should make {{Ubisoft-screenshot}} then? Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Second that. --elias.hc 08:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Onimusha needs to be split

It's huge!--Dangerous-Boy 08:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Just split it up into each game, like with the Resident Evil games. Havok (T/C/c) 09:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

IRC channel for WPCVG

I've brought this up in the past but perhaps it is time to revisit this issue. I'm usually in Wikipedia IRC channels but I think we should have a channel dedicated to this wikiproject where we could bounce ideas off each other. If enough people are interested in joining I'll get round to setting it up and featuring it prominently on the WikiProject page. jacoplane 00:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd go. Kil (talk) 00:54, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok I've registered #wikipedia-cvg with ChanServ. jacoplane 03:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

PC categories

I am of the opinion that articles and media should not be directly sorted in to any PC category unless it has something to do specifically with the term/specification. Recently we cleared out most of Category:PC games into more appropriate subcategories. I am in the process of doing the same for Category:PC game covers. We need to setup a guideline, nothing major, to help advise people so we don't have to do this sort of cleanup. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 02:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

About 60 articles have been added to Category:PC games. It needs to be trimmed again. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 02:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't notice Windows and DOS categories at first... whoops. I'm going through my contributions and recategorizing the images I mistakenly added to PC game covers. Kil (talk) 02:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. I created Category:PC game covers to match Category:PC games, but you're right, subcategories would be better. The guideline sounds like a good idea too, so other editors (like myself :P) know which categories would be potentially useful and which wouldn't. I'll do what I can to help clear out Category:PC game covers. Robert 02:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Basically my feelings on the matter is that there is no such thing as "PC software" at all. While the personal computer hardware does execute the software, it is immaterial to this argument I am trying to present. The only software than runs on a personal computer is the operating system. The OS then manages any programs that the user then uses. Basically what I am trying to get across in this rant is that games don't run on PCs, games run on OSes. (Please do not bring consoles into the argument here, the OS & HW are tightly integrated and indistinguishable in many cases). Therefore I submit that classifying any game or software as "PC" should only be done in the case that the OS is indeterminable. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If a game is released for multiple operating systems, should it be placed in several categories, then? --Optichan 19:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Always. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 06:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

No strategy info

I want to create a template that sits on top of the articles that deal with information about classes, like for World of Warcraft. Most of those articles are littered with cruft and reads more like a strategy guide. Good idea? Bad? Havok (T/C/c) 16:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd support that if it was entirely commented out; otherwise it might make the page a bit messy. --InShaneee 19:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't follow. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 23:47, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I think he wants a standard "WP:NOT a strategy guide, so don't put it in there" type message at the top of these (and other) articles. However, such meta-instruction is generally reserved for talk pages. I'm actually tempted to suggest integrating it into the {{cvgproj}} template, given how common the problem is, but no, I don't think it'd be useful. Nifboy 00:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree that if you do use it, it should be on the talk page. Or use the hide HTML code in the actual article. Thunderbrand 00:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Articles I can't be bothered to babysit - Left Behind: Eternal Forces

This article is still pretty much an attack page on the game. Being that I really don't care much about it, I've barely done anything to right it. But if someone can make an effort to sort it out, then it'd be nice. Before, the article used to use sources like gamerankings and IGN, now it's mostly taken from partisan blogs. I've removed the links to the blogs various times, which users revert every so often whilst denying that they're blogs (even though their front page declares this). Right now, it's totally unbalanced, it's like an article on GTA written by Jack Thompson. Quotes from reviews detailing the general game have been removed and replaced with passages about how you can kill nurses and how you're playing as terrorists. But as I say, I really don't care for the Christian right anyway, but I also don't care for those who are pushing blogs onto the Wiki. - Hahnchen 08:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally wouldn't be editing the article if it wasn't for the vandalism and the shameless promotion as well. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 06:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Example article = A-class?

Is an example article the same thing as a WP:ASS A-class article? It seems to me that the standards are about the same, and there are definitely good articles that are not example articles, and example articles that are not featured. Seahen 13:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think "Example articles" were meant to be WPCVG's own featured articles, but last I checked there were only about two or so anyway (maybe there are more now, I dunno). -- gakon5 14:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh wait, they got rid of the "example articles" I was thinking of. There used to be two articles listed under an "Example articles" subheading in Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Featured articles, but the headed has since been removed. It had like Wind Waker and something else. Next to the articles was a modified barnstar with the Nuvola CVG controller on it.
This is different from the Example articles page on WP:CVG, which is basically a list of featured articles, used to set an example for what all other game, character, system, etc. articles should be like. -- gakon5 12:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Updating "Example articles"

Seeing as Resident Evil (series) is now listed as a 'Good Article', should I list it under the "Example articles" subheading? Morgan695 16:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I dunno. I think that section is only for featured articles. The couple that aren't featued, such as Counter-Strike and LOOM, have been up there for a long time, so I haven't touched them. You can add RE to this page, though: Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Featured articles. Thunderbrand 20:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

History of E3

Just wanted to inform you guys that a while ago I made the History of E3 page, in case you didn't know. It's a skeleton page now, but pages that link to a specific E3 year may be better off linking to this page.--Orion Minor 07:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It's just a list of each year's events, maybe a title like E3 timeline would be more suitable. Also, there seems to be a lot information on the 2006 event and not much to others. I would suggest, removing the list of games announcements and just summarising the event. ie, keynote speeches, general directions of the companies, big announcements and surprises. - Hahnchen 18:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
The page was moved from E3 when the history section got too large. The 06 section, the only one completed before the move, is more indicative of what the other years will be like.
I think if you extend that kind of detail in E32006 to previous E3s then the article is going to become too long. Which is why I thought it'd be a good idea to trim out some of the 2006 info. I mean, a port of Final Fantasy 3 onto the DS really isn't big news is it? And in general, lists don't make great reading. Of course, this doesn't matter too much because the other years are so short right now, but its something to bare in mind. - Hahnchen 22:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

A user for your watchlists - User:24.205.31.88

Although not as bad as the not blocked Krabs vandal, this guy also inserts misinformation into random gaming articles. His signal/vandalism ratio is slightly better than Krabs, but he can't resist inserting incorrect game characters into random game articles. I got him blocked before for this, but this was like a piddly useless 24hr block. So if some of the CVG admins can keep an eye on him and then fall on him like a ton of bricks when he inevitably inserts his vandalism, then that'd be nice. - Hahnchen 13:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Links to other articles

Hey. Just got a question about something on the FIFA Series. An unidentified user removed the {{main aritcle}} parts of the sections on the FIFA Football 2005 and FIFA 06 parts of the article and made the heading a link. Who is right? Normy132 06:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

From the Manual of Style: "Avoid links within headings. Instead repeat the word or phrase in the first sentence and wikify there." {{Main}} is also acceptable, given its prevalence. Nifboy 07:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Normy132 08:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Plot summaries

I'm not a member, but does anyone have a good suggestion for the length of a plot summary for some of the VG articles?

I can't see anything in the style guidelines (in fact, I notice that section is absent in your guide), but is there anything else that you could point me to?--Toffile 20:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Computer and video games/Featured articles has a list of all the Good and Featured Articles. Those would be where to look first. Thunderbrand 22:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed category

I was thinking it would be nice to the Computer and video games themes category along the lines of "Prehistoric life computer and video games." It would include all the games under the Dino Crisis, Turok, Jurassic Park and Primal Rage IPs, plus whatever else we can think of. Is this a good idea and is that the best name to use? Ace of Sevens 01:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why not. The category name sounds OK, but it needs to be "Prehistoric life in computer and video games". Thunderbrand 02:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, I'd vote for "Prehistoric life video games." But I'm one of the few that thinks the whole "Computer and video games" thing is unweildly (and should just be changed to video games with computer games and console games a subset of video game). — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Frecklefoot on the title format. All the other subcategories in Category:Computer and video game themes are titled that way. ~ Hibana 15:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
What about Category:Feudal Japan computer and video games? Ace of Sevens 17:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
It's apparent to me that Hibana doesn't understand what I'm refererring to. I'm referring to a discussion we had quite some time back here about changing the name of "video games" to "console games" and making "computer games" and "console games" subsets of "video game." It didn't fly (for various reasons, though I'm still in favor of doing it someday). But this is OT for this section. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Compilations, etc in infoboxes

If a game is later released as part of a collection, should that go in the infobox and if so, how should it be formatted? Example: Sonic the Hedgehog has been repackaged in lots of collections. Should the platforms the collection appeared on be listed in the infobox for the main game article? If so, should the name of the collection go there as well? Ace of Sevens 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

In a related issue, what if a game is released as an unlockable, a bonus or a minigame in a later game, such as Metroid in Metroid Prime, Donkey Kong (arcade game) in Donkey Kong 64 or Quake II in Quake IV for Xbox? Should those be listed in the infobox of the original game or just the article? Ace of Sevens 17:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that the original box should go in the infobox of re-released games. From looking around, that seems to be the consensus. Also, if a game is included as an unlockable, it seems best to be mentioned in the article. Thunderbrand 00:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about the image. I'm talking about the platform listing. If Sonic the Hedgehog is in Sonic Mega Collection Plus for Xbox, do we list Xbox in the platforms section for Sonic the Hedgehog? What about Flicky, which is also in this collection, but is locked until you play Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine a bunch of times? SHould Xbox be listed in its platform section?Ace of Sevens 02:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Most articles I've seen list the re-releases in the infobox, such as Metroid and Sonic the Hedgehog. Thunderbrand 02:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps in retrospect, the field should probably be "Original platforms" or something to that effect because there are a number of issues that crop up like what you're talking about (I'm not advocating this change either - more of a 'rule of thumb' to its use). Emulation, collections, etc. It's bound to only get worse once Nintendo rolls out its VC, not to mention what is possible on Xbox Live, and whatever Sony is doing - then think of future generations because this is no doubt going to be successful. Here's an interesting question: technically speaking if Sonic the Hedgehog is a Wii game, which is how it's currently listed, then by that logic isn't Halo technically a Xbox 360 game? Afterall I can play it on Xbox 360 which is an intended use (i.e., not like I'm emulating Super Mario Bros. on Dreamcast, which is possible). You see what I'm saying here? I have no problem with stating it can be played on those systems or is included in certain collections in the article or maybe a category or something, but what we have currently going on at Sonic is rather misleading, however true. For whatever that was worth - regardless of what is decided upon it will never be consistent across all articles; with all the different ways to legally obtain and play games these days, anyway. K1Bond007 08:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. Backward compatibility isn't the same as virtual console as virtual console requires a rerelease of the game. The stard I've been using is that the platform for virtual console games is Virtual Console (Wii), not Wii. E-Reader games are e-Reader, not Game Boy Advance and Xbox Live Aracde games are Xbox Live Arcade, not Xbox 360. Ace of Sevens 17:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
That's not what is listed at Sonic the Hedgehog, though. The point is, what should be listed in that field. Where do you draw the line. I honestly don't know. I don't think listing the VC and whatever else in there is all that important and for games like Sonic, it's clutter. K1Bond007 18:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I fixed that. People make errors on everything. The fact one was amde here is irrelevant to what the standards shoudl be. I think this is very important. What's the point of listing available platforms if you arbitraily decide some don't count? The Virtual Console is a release of a game and should be listed. Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit), Mortal Kombat (arcade game) and other games with lots of releases for different platforms are going to have lots of entires under platforms. That's just a consequence of there being a lot of data, not clutter. Ace of Sevens 19:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Gameplay sections of articles

I just completed a gameplay section for Chrono Cross, as the previous incarnation of the article didn't cover it at all. However, in an attempt to explain it all for a non video-gamer (to satisfy Featured Article requirements), the section bloated up to four paragraphs. Is it too large? What can be done if it is to shorten it? Thanks.--Zeality 22:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Two things: One, there's an awful lot of "fluff" in there; "The main character, Serge, must explore the tropical archipelago of El Nido by foot and boat" is both non-descript and should be written in such a manner that connects "The player" and "Serge". Second, there's a couple references to "the X button". STAB THESE IN THE FACE. *cough*. Nifboy 00:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Screenshots

So is it perfectly alright to take a screenshot of a game and license it under the video game screenshot license and then put it in articles relating to the screenshot or is it more complicated than that? Jam01 00:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Using a screenshot to illustrate the article abotu the game seems like pretty straight-forward fair use to me. Ace of Sevens 00:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox VG + Mac OS

Perhaps we should think of something for Template:Infobox_CVG regarding the fact that there are different types of Mac OS. For example, Sim City 2000 was released for the pre-X Mac OS systems, but can be run via Classic; it does not run on the new Intel iMacs. Yet, it's noted to run on "Mac OS". This is very unclear. This might need a recategorization of a whole lot of games, though... —Michiel Sikma (Kijken maar niet aanraken) 19:03, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The Mac OS games should then be divided up into Mac OS Classic and Mac OS X, shouldn't they? --elias.hc 21:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, how much detail do we want? There are several epochs for MacOS. MacOS Classic can be broken up into System 6.x and before, and System 7.0 - 9.x (or 68K and PowerPC; the division is basically the same), and MacOS X can be broken up into PPC and Intel (all PPC apps will run on Intel systems, but eventually there will be Intel-only programs that won't run on PPC systems).

Personally, I think it may be worth specifying. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Sony Serial numbers

I would like to add the serial numbers to each of the ps1 and ps2 games released as their is no definitive index of them. Each region has their own serial number SLES and SCES for European releases, SLUS and SCUS for American, etc. Could this optional serial number feature please be added to Template:Infobox_CVG. It could also make use of the flags like the release dates and would make my job a whole lot easier. incog 18:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we need to have the serial numbers for each game. How is that encyclopedic? Thunderbrand 19:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
It makes searching much easier as the wikipedia search alg sucks, it is simply additional information and would be completely optional. incog 21:10, 3 July 2006 (UTC)