Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 25

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A list of articles that need work

Here is a list of articles that are in serious need of work:

  • Spore (video game): the game isn't out, and the article is massive. I don't even want to think of how big the article will be when the game actually is released. Splitting into other articles is possible: but copyediting and other things to condense this should be done first. It shouldn't be a complete case of "it's too big, let's just split it". It's a massive game, but that certainly doesn't mean the article has to be massive.
  • Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone (video game): This (along with most other Harry Potter games) are cluttered lists, and not much else. I've asked at the Harry Potter project for help on this one (not many responses there yet).
  • Tony Hawk's (series): Just about every game listed on the series page, suffers from massive, bad formatted and cluttered lists as well.

I think that's about it, but feel free to add others. RobJ1981 00:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Raw material for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time article

Hi all. Months ago, I tried my hand at revamping the Ocarina of Time article without actually submitting my results. I'm not active at Wikipedia anymore, but I thought some of the material could be used to better the article. The material is located in my sandbox: User:Tristam/sandbox. If it looks like a huge wall of text, it's because it's a combination of what I wrote, what other Wikipedia users wrote, and material from other sources; I never organized it or weeded any of it out. There's probably also a lot of shorthand (such as reminders to myself about what to write) and other nonsense only I would understand. However, there are more than a few complete paragraphs in there that would really help the article (e.g., introduction, first paragraph of the plot, the first three paragraphs of the "gameplay" section, and others). Hope this helps out. --Tristam

SSX 3 Update

I'm pretty new here, but I've been looking around pages I know about to see if I can improve them (mostly typos :D) Anyway, looking at the SSX 3 page, there is LOADS of bad info and missing info, which I'll try to add within the next two weeks. If no-one minds, I'll also split each character's data into seperate pages, like Tricky's Kaori Nishidake and Elise Riggs.

P.S. Some tips would be appreciated, in my talk page is probably easiest :D

At0m1Ca 14 14:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

If they are one time characters, a page for each them isn't necessary. I'm no expert on SSX, so I can't be of much help here. RobJ1981 18:51, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually I've had a change of heart. Seeing as I have 3 of 5 games and a strong knowledge of the series, I will go back to my original idea of a page per character, And put in all the information from each game they appear in. I can do bio's and info from Tricky to On Tour, and the rest as well as unlockables I can find by walkthroughs. I think that'll be sufficient data :D I'll try to do it within a month :D At0m1Ca 14 08:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid my project will be delayed a bit, I got Guitar Hero 2 yesterday and.... well, it's good. Very good. Very VERY good. You know :D I'll still try to do it... eventually At0m1Ca 14 13:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Current GCOTW

Kirby Super Star - Please give a hand, honeys! - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Devil May Cry Task Force

Okay me and a group of users decided to organize a task force to keep the DMC articles in top shape, it was originally proposed as a WikiProject but we ultimately decided to be a task force and to work under this project, just letting you know, any comments you have please contact me or leave a message at the Task Force's talk page. Cheers! -DDF

Compromise reached on Soul Calibur character articles

Bethereds has agreed to leave the katakana in the leads as long as it is at the end. I think this is a reasonable enough compromise and so I've edited the remaining articles for consistency. Whether the entire thing should be moved to the bottom as a footnote is something else that might be considered. I've also reverted the name on the Mitsurugi article. Thank you everyone for your assistance in the dispute. Articles in question: Hwang Seong-gyeong, Seong Mi-na, Hong Yun-seong, Seong Han Myeong -- Exitmoose 03:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

List of characters in Rayman

I'm starting a list for characters pertaining to the Rayman series of games. Any help is appreciated. — Canderous Ordo 10:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Done some tidying, mainly removing overlinking and fixing italics. --Oscarthecat 10:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Change to cvgproj template

Made some changes to the {{cvgproj}} template. The parameter |tf=Name of task force will indicate that an article is supported by Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Name of task force, which currently means Capcom, Devil May Cry, Konami, Sega, and Tycoon games. I would suggest that any new task forces must first be proposed on this talk page first, though. Also, the images task force is up and running, and can be tagged to an article by using |screenshot=yes and |cover=yes. See Template talk:Cvgproj for a full description. JACOPLANE • 2007-03-27 19:21


Hi i would like to join this wikiProject. Where do i sign up? Thanks - Cocopopz2005 03:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Here. And welcome, sir! ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 05:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Adding your name there is all you need to do, and even that is optional. Wikiprojects are informal collaborations, so if you want to improve video game articles, you're already a member of the project. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

SVG version of Nuvola apps package games.png

Hi, I've made an SVG designed to supercede Image:Nuvola apps package games.png, which can be found here. I hope this is useful and I apologise if this topic has been incorrectly placed. Rubberkeith 16:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Did you make this from scratch? While I appreciate your efforts, it isn't quite the same. Personally I prefer the original as it has brighter colours and flatter buttons. Wikimedians can be very picky about SVGs being identical to the images they are superseding, and I think there may even be some obscure rule about this somewhere. GarrettTalk 10:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Same here, it's appreciated, but the svg one is flatter and duller. If we're going to replace an image used on 16000 talk pages, it needs to be the same/better than what we have. --PresN 03:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:Video game flops

Category:Video game flops... does this have any value at all? --- RockMFR 03:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion it doesn't. What exactly defines a flop? A game that was hyped/advertising alot, then sold bad? A game in general that just sold bad? A game that failed to live up to expections? A CFD is in order (and if there is a list page: afd that as well). RobJ1981 05:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree, seems pretty subjective, and on a similar note, List of video games by genre seems pretty subjective too...♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah... that needs to go (as soon as everything is properly categorized, if not already). --- RockMFR 14:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Any Help Is Appreciated!

Hey there--I've begun working on a list of Comparison of Wii Games which complements the current List of Wii games and List of Untitled Wii Projects to create some sort of Triforce of Wii Game Lists. I'm hoping to merge the current List of widescreen Wii games and List of Wii Wi-Fi games into one comprehensive list.

It's quite a bit of work for just one editor to work on, and as such this is a call for help. It's nothing really difficult, so if anyone can help out, even a little, that would be great. -Digiwrld1 08:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll be happy to help! Exactly what do you need done? NiGHTS into Dreams... 01:59, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Video game people

Hello, I am a visitor from Wikiproject Categorization. I've been frustrated on a number of occasions in finding the proper category for a video game developer, programmer, artist, and I realized that this category lacks what most high level categories have which is Category:Video game people. So, I created it and copied Video game designers and video game artists. Now I would like to propose some additional work that will make your category easier for the unfamiliar user (such as me). There are now a number of occupations, including occupations by nationality (e.g. Category:Japanese video game designers), all of which fall under video game designers. I would suggest that now that there is a video game people category, you create Category:Video game people by occupation and Video game people by nationality and if you really need it then Video game people by occupation and nationality (yes, this is common). And then under these categories, move/copy all the profession related categories under them. I feel confident that others will need the video game people category, so I was WP:BOLD but didn't want to be too presumptuous and storm through your area. I am happy to do the work if I get a nod that this makes sense. Note: as of now, the categorization in this section has not been disturbed, I have just created a new layer of Video game people and copied artists, designers and directors into it (and most occupations now fall under designers) Scarykitty 19:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

A comment about Wii Points on several Nintendo articles

I made a comment here: Talk:List of Virtual Console games (North America)#Wii Points doesn.27t need to be listed. But I thought I would get some extra input here. Basically to sum it up (if you didn't read my post on that talk page): how much Wii Points the Virtual Console games cost, doesn't needed to be listed. They are downloads, but look at just about any video game article: no prices are listed. I would've removed it, but I'm sure people would've reverted it. This same thing applies to the Wii Points and Virtual Console article, and the other country lists for VC games as well. Maybe someone can think of a reason to keep it on: but I highly doubt listing prices is encyclopedic. It's helpful, but this is an encyclopedia: not a guide to prices. I can understand keeping the prices of the Wii points cards in general: but not game prices. If they are kept, then people might as welll list on every article the game cost $50 or whatever. A download shouldn't make it an exception to the rule, period. In other examples: movie articles don't have prices, nor do CD articles. In comparision to other actual downloads: I haven't checked that, but I'm sure a mass listing of prices doesn't exist on the articles. I've also posted this on the Nintendo project talk page, to get more responses. RobJ1981 19:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Also there is the price lists at Xbox Live Arcade. I really would like to know, why exactly are download prices more notable than regular game prices? It should be both or none at all: I prefer none, seeing as how many older games prices will be hard to find, and it's just un-needed fan adding. If people really want to find prices: they can go to the official source, Wikipedia shouldn't be the place for this. Since when did Wikipedia become a guide to prices? I think a lot of this isn't needed, as this isn't a guide to prices (as I stated above). RobJ1981 19:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this. Aside from the fact that price listing for games isn't really encyclopedic material. There's the issue of upkeep. Prices of games change a lot and the effort spent up keeping prices could better be spent improving more important things. If someone is really caught up in listing prices, they should rather work on an article about pricing in video games (the history of prices of games, how pricing changed based on different media formats, the pricing structure of PC games Vs. console games, etc.). I think that could make a good article. —Mitaphane ?|! 00:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Anyone else care to comment? As of now, not many have commented (at any of the talk pages I posted this at). The talk page at the list page has several responses: but only by a few people overall. WP:ILIKEIT is what this leaning towards, in my opinion. RobJ1981 17:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Game prices for direct downloads such as this are more notable because they're fixed by the distribution service. An MSRP is just that, a "suggested retail price", which declines over the life of the title until one can no longer find a non-used copy at all. In contrast, the games on services such as Xbox Live Arcade will continue to be there indefinitely at their original price, unless Microsoft does some sort of clean-up and retires old titles. Thus, the price is quite notable, since this is the price that one will always pay, and in fact, the price (in points) is the same regardless of region, so it's always accurate and doesn't require any sort of upkeep or maintenance. Merchants can't discount it, and one can't get the title at a higher or lower price at all. -- Slordak 18:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
That's true, but it still brings up the matter of this is an encyclopedia. Since when did Wikipedia become a guide to prices? Wikipedia certainly shouldn't be made into a download price guide, due to the price not changing. RobJ1981 18:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The information is readily available, accurate (without requiring further maintenance), and in no way jeopardizes the informative content. Why not include it, at least in the Xbox Live Arcade / Wii Virtual Console game list, even if not in the article itself? It is something that people care about. As a counter-example, I don't personally think it's notable for every PS3 game article to say that the game "Media" is a "Blu-ray Disc", since this seems to go without saying, but people put it there, and it's not particularly problematic, so why not? --Slordak 18:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

Following the suggestions of various Wikipedians, I've created a Comparison of Wii Games to complement the current List of Wii games. It allows for additional details to be listed that could not have been fit into the current list, such as Controllers used, Number of Players, and any features.

I believe that one comprehensive list is superior to 3 separate lists for both readers wanting to know more about Wii games as well as editors wanting to contribute and collaborate. As such I am proposing that the List of Wii Wi-Fi Connection games, the List of widescreen Wii games, and the List of Wii games using Miis be merged into the Comparison of Wii Games.

I would really appreciate it if you could leave your comments and votes at the Comparison of Wii Games Talk Page.Digiwrld1 19:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Game Guide definitions

I had been in discussion with another editor about at what point a description of in-game items (in the example, powerups) goes from 'description', worthy of inclusion, to 'game guide', and properly the province of a site devoted to them. I cannot say I have seen any articles that would violate this rule in my opinion, but I would like to know what the main concensus is in this: what is the main defining difference between the two, as far as describing gameplay elements in general (scoring IF ATYPICAL FOR GENRE, powerups, basic controls)? IL-Kuma 07:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

  • I've read articles that I've thought are way too detailed for anyone but players of the game, but different people have different thresholds for what kind material is suited for a "game guide". The whole no game guide thing come from WP:NOT#IINFO under instruction manuals. Keeping that in mind, I'd say the point starts where you start describing, in detail, how the item is used, why its used, and such. In general, I'd say it's when you start describing things that would only be relevant to instructing a player of the game: stuff that isn't useful for someone who will never play the game. —Mitaphane ?|! 07:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  • If I find myself reading something that outlines the item's statistics and/or how that item is used, that's game guide material. --Scottie_theNerd 08:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The threshold suggested on our guidelines states "if the content only has value to people actually playing the game, it's unsuitable." I've recently begun to think of it in two phases:
  1. A basic description, for context (no more than a couple paragraphs)
  2. Things which are relevant to how reviewers see the game (if you cite a reviewer for criticising features X, Y, and Z, it is certainly worthwhile to describe such features in the gameplay section)
I think the above approach works particularly well when we talking about controls or other such sections that should discussed be in some games but not others. Nifboy 09:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Per game guide, a game guide is a strategy guide, a walkthrough or hint collection. Basically, discussing game mechanics does not make something a game guide, but telling people how to beat the game does. --tjstrf talk 09:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't think it's as clear cut as that. FAQs (such as those found on GameFAQs) are often not game guides, but do explain the mechanics of games. Many editors have used to game guide definition, which only covers - as you mention - how to beat the game. A list of weapons outlining their statistics won't help a gamer directly, but it would contain a lot of technical information that would be of no use to non-players. Does this fall within our guidelines? --Scottie_theNerd 11:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to ammend video games to Naming conventions (use English)

here! - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Founder of Project

Who actually founded this Wikiproject? Bowsy (review me!) 14:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Greyengine5 created the main project page. --- RockMFR 17:33, 1 April 2007 (UTC)



I just noticed that we have our very own Qxz-ad.. JACOPLANE • 2007-04-2 09:49

Heh, that is pretty cool! Thunderbrand 13:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I've added it to the project page. JACOPLANE • 2007-04-2 13:49

What makes a game notable

I'm trying to make the article Marble Blast Gold notable, after it's been marked as not notable. Have added a couple of favourable reviews. Is this sufficient to make the game notable? Would be a shame to lose this article, it's a cracker of a game and its successor Marble Blast Ultra was similarly outstanding. --Oscarthecat 17:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You can't "make" the subject notable, what you do is "prove" that it's notable. The way you do this is find multiple reliable outside sources that mention it. Incidentally, GameRankings is not a reviewer, they pull various reviews together to get an average, so quoting them means nothing, you need to get the review that the quote was pulled from. --PresN 17:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
This should be merged with Marble Blast Ultra as, the way I understand it, Ultra is just an updated version as Gold was in turn an update of the original Marble Blast. By covering the series as a whole you decrease notability concerns. GarrettTalk 00:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I think the notability guidelines are entirely overused. There's no reason that Wikipedia can't support an article for every subject anyone would feasibly look up. -- Exitmoose 01:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

New navboxes proposal, AMiB out of here

Hmm, it seems that User:A Man In Black has gotten so pissed over the navboxes debate that he has decided to quit Wikipedia altogether. Now some users are trying to introduce a new guideline that is radically different from what we've had for some time now. I think it's important that all CVG members contribute to that discussion so that perhaps we can finally settle this once and for all (wouldn't that be nice).. Please comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Navboxes so that we don't get splintered discussions again. JACOPLANE • 2007-04-2 17:48

For what it's worth, it wasn't that that caused me to lose my appetite for Wikipedia.
There was some productive discussion going on at Template talk:Tekken series#Expectations; someone may want to follow up on it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Wii games Peer Review

The List of Wii games is getting ready for Featured status and is currently undergoing a Peer Review. Please take a moment to look over the article and add your suggestions/comments for improvement here. It would be really helpful and prepare the article for FL candidacy.

(Also, there is a proposal to Merge the List of widescreen Wii games, List of Wii games using Miis, and List of Wii Wi-Fi Connection games into the Comparison of Wii Games. Please take a moment to look at the comments and add in your thoughts at the Talk Page.)

Thanks! Digiwrld1 22:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Does it have a chance? That page is going to be changing a lot, with new announcements and changed dates and cancelled games and all that. I'm not sure if it's stable enough for Featured list status (in comparsion other featured lists are are of defunct systems, like the N64 and VB). hbdragon88 01:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
A valid concern, to which I can only answer that we shall see. I have not been a contributor for very long, but I realize that a list such as this will be an interesting one to send to FLC. According to the FL Criteria, however, Dynamic Lists are allowed to be submitted, and as such this list is tagged with that category. Though it is relatively early in the lifecycle, the list is relatively stable and is not undergoing any major edit war; nor is there new games added every day. Rather, every few dsys a couple of games are added to the list, and articles (stubs at the least) are crated for them relatively quickly. For these reasons I believe that the list can be submitted to FLC. Digiwrld1 22:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Category:DS-only games

Is this category really necessary when there's already Category:Nintendo DS games? Kariteh 21:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I never liked these "only" games categories. I guess since the other game systems have them, they all have to. Thunderbrand 22:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I find this category to be quite frustrating, if for no other reason than so many editors seem to see it as mutually exclusive to Category:Nintendo DS games. Please, if you add Category:DS-only games, don't erase the "DS games" tag. -- Exitmoose 00:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I believe the rule is that you're in fact NOT supposed to have an article in both a subcatagory and parant. WP:CAT says Articles should not usually be in both a category and its subcategory.", though WP:SUBCAT says that "When an article is put into a subcategory based on an attribute that is not the first thing most people would think of to categorise it, it should be left in the parent category as well." I dunno. I can KINDA see the use/need to the -only catagories, but then again it almost seems like so-called cruft...♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Seems like a pretty clear case of that second condition, I think. It's a lot more notable that something is a DS game than it is to say that it's a DS-only game. I can only wonder why, besides the random argument about which system is best (yawn), one would look up DS-only games in any case. -- Exitmoose 00:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I've never rated the -only categories, they're redundant. You know that a game is a system exclusive if it's only in one Game system category. However, without any kind of Metadata searching, this can't be done, and the -only category system is purely a hack around this. I personally would prefer to see List of Nintendo DS exclusive games instead. - hahnchen 01:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the only categories are fine, and obviously a game shouldn't be in both the regular cat and "only" cat. Why overcategorize? If something is only for one system (or handheld): it should be categorized in the "only" cat, not the regular one. I don't see a list replacing the categories: because if it did happen, every exclusive game for DS (or any system) would probably need a link to the list. Otherwise, how would people even know an "exclusive" games list exists (besides searching the main cat of DS or whatever). As the old saying goes: if it's not broken, don't fix it. RobJ1981 05:01, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
There are other problems, however. For instance see Category:Xbox 360 games. The sub-category can't even be seen because it begins with an "X" and so is on the next page. Perhaps, a standard needs to be adopted where "-only" subcategories are placed under "*" instead of under their respective letter. -- Exitmoose 06:31, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
The whole -only thing is redundant. For example, Category:Nintendo DS games should show up every available game for the DS in one category, not split into subcategories such as DS only. If you want to see if a game is DS exclusive, it'll be obvious in the article itself as there is only one Game system category. The List of exclusives could be prominently linked from the Category:Nintendo DS games along with the other Lists of DS games which currently exist. - hahnchen 09:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Furthurmore, "every exclusive game for DS (or any system) would probably need a link to the list." is not really an issue. After all, every game needs to have the catagory added in the first place. Hell, certainly a bot could do the work if needed (not that there are THAT many in each system that three or four people couldn't run through in short order per list). The only problem with a list might be that there's no real good annotation for them... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, this discussion makes me wonder about stuff like Category:Falling block puzzle games -- there are subcatagories for Tetris and Puyo-Puyo, but most of the games in those series are also part of the main catagory. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

clean-up required

anyone want to take a run at cleaning up this as it falls under the remit of this special interest group? --Fredrick day 22:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What about Command & Conquer?

Anybody here that has played Command & Conquer has to admit it was a great strategy game. It should be a wikiproject category. Xsoldier 17:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject groups are formed by teams of committed editors, not by how great a series is. --Scottie_theNerd 17:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
There's also the question of scope. Does a single game series have enough notability to mandate an entire WikiProject? Probably not; probably just an article for each game, one for the series, and maybe a few more for things related to the game. This falls firmly under the scope of the existing Video game WikiProject, and doesn't need its own. -- Slordak 17:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this is too small of a scope, but a taskforce Westwood studios or Taskforce EA games would not surprise me at all.--Clyde (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Those articles certainly need it. There are a ton of great sources out there that could be used to polish them up, and Frank Klepacki's article can offer anything one needs for soundtrack sections. There's also some in-universe stuff floating around... --Zeality 16:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion over the inclusion of Brain Age in the Sudoku article.

Particularly, to have it be mentioned as one of the more notable video games to feature Sudoku. Please discuss here. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Virtua Fighter Characters

I really only started editing the wiki because I thought that the Tekken characters needed a navbar. They did, I made it, it's useful. However, recently I made on for the Virtua Fighter characters. Still useful, but I noticed one thing about their pages. They're god-awful. Many of them don't have pictures, they say only a little bit about their story and nothing about their gameplay-

Needless to say, it was a shock after editing Tekken articles. Regardless, these articles are in desperate need of cleanup and further information. I know I can't do it by myself, so I decided to come here and ask for help. I'll do what I can, but it'd be nice to know I've got some help before I start. - Sharpevil 19:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

List of "Sideways DS" Games

I'd like to report the creation of this new article List of "Sideways DS" Games. Is it really necessary? Kariteh 09:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont think its nececary, and even if it is, the title is not very good.Mattyatty 18:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Not necessary at all, this could be put under DS functionality or something of that nature. guitarhero777777 00:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

No, it is a very indiscriminate way of sorting information. I've prodded it. Would have warned the creator, but he's been blocked and the user talk page protected. hbdragon88 23:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Just tom let you know. The Prod was removed so you should consider taking this to AFD. -- 04:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for letting me know, sent to AFD. hbdragon88 08:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Since nobody seemed to notice my merge suggestion, I thought I'd ask here, is there some reason the information shouldn't be merged to List of Nintendo DS games? It'd be simple to add a [SW] tag to the games where it is relevant, so the information wouldn't be lost, and I'd say it's roughly comparable to the Wi-Fi tag. Also, I don't think anybody noticed the numerous other video game lists that focus on functionality similar to using the microphone. I'm not even sure if that wouldn't be viable information for the list. Does every game use the Microphone, or just some in particular? FrozenPurpleCube 16:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Grand Theft Auto characters

Hi there,

I'm thinking of creating several articles with the GTA characters on, one page for one character, as I feel it would be easier to get to. In effect, I would also propose the deletion of the List of characters in Grand Theft Auto: Vice City Stories page along with all the other character list pages assosiate with GTA. I think we coulsd delete the list of gangs page for GTA, and create individual pages for the gangs. Opinions?:- Davnel03 10:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

The gangs themselves don't have much much notability. Brief summaries in a list seems more appropriate. --Scottie_theNerd 11:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
What I was thinking of is:
  • DELETE all of the character lists for GTA
  • CREATE a page for each individual character

I think this is better, as you can say all about the character in one page, and you can at least say if anything is unknown. I really think this is a better way of doing it, maybe not for the gangs, but for the people. I'm going to start creating a few pages (not many!!) to give an idea of what I mean. Davnel03 13:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I dont think the characters are notable enough to have a page each.Mattyatty 14:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
terrible idea - minor characters do not need a seperate page each. --Fredrick day 14:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. These characters are simply not notable enough on their own. Our general trend is to try and collapse this information into one larger page, since this allows us to capture the information but avoids having to try and defend many small pages full of fan-cruft and unsourced junk. Since there are apparently already unified lists, there's no need to create anything additional. -- Slordak 17:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. The only possible result of this would be an excessive amount of pages containing a minimal amount of information that could be considered encyclopedic and not cruft. The Kinslayer 17:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Merging into one large article is better - lots of stubs are simply not useful and increase the amount of maintenance and work needed, plus it adds a ton of new pages to the already large backlog of stub class WP:VG articles. However, do create redirects to the list from all list items. I bolded the word oppose in the above two comments for clarity and continuity. --User:Krator (t c) 17:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Strong oppose — characters need to be merged into so-called "lists"; not only does it strengthen content by weeding out the excess, it allows notability to be established on the whole by providing creation, merchandise, and criticism information, which is infinitely easier to do with the entire cast. Not to mention the GFDL violation if any of that list content is merged into the individual articles, or the numerous policy and guideline violations. See Characters of Final Fantasy VIII. — Deckiller 02:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - As per above. The characters don't have enough notability by themselves and most likely lack third-party sources. Wikipedia is not a GTA Wiki. --Scottie_theNerd 06:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Uhhh, excuse me if it was out of place to do so, but I went ahead and just redirected them into the list of characters of the first game they appeared in. I did that before I was aware of this vote per, basically, everybody's arguments here. That being said, you all can do whatever you feel is necessary, if what I did won't suffice. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 06:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, good edits. --User:Krator (t c) 08:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Mjolnir battle armor

MJOLNIR battle armor needs serious clean-up to make it look something like a wikipedia article. --Fredrick day 17:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violation of
I removed most of the article. --User:Krator (t c) 08:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this even necessary? I find it to be too detailed for the apparent role it plays in the series. hbdragon88 23:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

new handheld video games sub-categories

I recently removed a link to a suggested list page for "book-style" Nintendo DS games[1] (which currently doesn't exist), and thought it would be better to create some of categories for handheld games with the option to play with the system held sideways, which includes games for PSP, Wonderswan, Game Boy Adance, and the Atari Lynx, and probably others. Any thoughts on the best way to approach this, such as naming or organization? Dancter 18:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this already being discussed above, under List of "Sideways DS" Games? --Slordak 18:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
My apologies. I should've checked first. Dancter 18:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I think I want to keep this discussion separate. In my experience, in discussions concerning list pages, proposals to use categories as an alternative are usually ignored. Frankly, I don't want the decision over a list page to affect what I'm trying to do, which can happen independently. Dancter 19:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, a lot of times suggestions like yours are ignored. I don't oppose the category, and I favor including the information on the main Nintendo DS page. In fact, I suggested that when I removed the prod, but it doesn't seem to even be considered. FrozenPurpleCube 21:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Silent Hill Task force?

Anyone interested in a Silent Hill task force?--Neur0tikX .talk 22:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not that involved with the VG project right now, as far as this talk page is concerned, and I haven't played a lot of the Silent Hill games, but I'll help, if I can. Like I said, I ain't that involved but, if you wish, I can help however I can. ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 22:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I may be up for it; I've played through Silent Hill 2 and am interested in the general vibe of the whole series; have made a few edits to Silent Hill: Origins over the past month. Marasmusine 07:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, if we make the Task Force, one of the first things that needs looking at is Silent Hill influences and trivia; it's horrible. Marasmusine 07:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Great. I'll work on setting up a task force page, along with checking around and getting what needs to be done in terms of Silent Hill related articles organized. One thing to look out for is symbolism, I've noticed in a lot of SH articles that people will give their own input on plot symbols and ideas on connections between various characters/monsters (such as "It's plausible that Pyramid Head was linked to...."). A while back there was a whole section on the SH movie page about symbolism which was pretty much an entire collection of fan theories and possible relations between certain game and movie elements unconfirmed by Konami. Anyway, I'll get working, glad to see that people are up for the task force. --Neur0tikX .talk 14:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Requested articles

The list of requested articles is getting rather large. I'll make a stab at some of them, but quite a lot simply aren't going to be notable enough. Can we prune these out? Marasmusine 07:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, feel free to cull anything you think would definitely be deleted anyway. If it turns out it was a notable game someone's bound to create it or add it again anyway. If you're unsure just leave it for someone else to assess. You can also check Special:Log; some will have been deleted before which means you can see the reason and/or the Afd and all that. GarrettTalk 10:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Marasmusine 14:58, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Equal Opinion

I was just discovering this project today, and I noticed that in the recomended lists, that it was mostly Nintendo. I'm not saying that Nintendo isn't that great. I am even planning on getting a Wii to go next to my Playstation 3. I just thought that there should be more diversity including Sony and Microsoft stuff, even if I am not the biggist Microsoft fan in the world.Playstationdude 21:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

What prevents you from creating them? --User:Krator (t c) 21:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
If you really want to and people will join it, I'd suggest making a task force. To do this, make a page and add it to the list of the other taskforces in our wikiproject box. If you are bound and determined to make a wikiproject, go here to see if anyone else is.--Clyde (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Units Sold

Does anyone have any idea or is there any reliable place to get the statistics of number of units sold for games? Most of the games I work on are not extremely well known, and I've had considerable trouble finding any stats for them.--Clyde (talk) 22:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Checking the references of List of best-selling video games might be worth it - check these among others: [2] [3] [4]. For not well known games, it will be hard to find statistics, because games not selling well generally don't mention them in reviews and such. --User:Krator (t c) 22:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I found it.--Clyde (talk) 14:19, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Thunderbrand has left.... :(

OK, so Thunderbrand has decided to leave Wikipedia for now... I will take up the task of maintaining the WP:GCOTW (If I don't do as good a job as Thunderbrand feel free to lend me a hand :), which Dan has done since October 2004... This WikiProject owes a lot to his contributions but I'm sure others will step up to the plate.. I for one wish Thunderbrand all the best and hope he returns one day... JACOPLANE • 2007-04-13 23:37

Damn, first AMIB now Thunderbrand. Two brilliant users (both admins, too) packing it in. – Steel 23:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't you two leave now. :-/ hbdragon88 00:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


We have made a new project for Playstation products. To view click here.Playstationdude 02:04, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Counter-Strike maps (2nd nomination)

Just a note to direct you to the above discussion, as the article is part of your WikiProject. Best regards, -- 15:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

In the future, you can just list the article according to the directions on the main page, seen here. Dancter 15:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Free main page images?

Seems the board caved in to the paranoids, so we can no longer use copyrighted images on the main page. I'm really hoping that's not what holding any of my articles from the main page, but at any rate, I guess we might start exploring free alternatives. That's the issue, though -- I can't think of a single one. What could one use for Chrono Trigger? Everything's copyrighted, right down to a picture of the cartridge. --Zeality 03:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

That's the inherent problem with completely eliminating fair use for everything. Films, video games, albums, etc. usually have no free images, while other areas like the US military and the sciences have a wide range of pictures to choose from. In some cases we might be able to substitute something - i.e. if Nintendogs was featured, I imagine that we could use a general picture of a dog, kind of like how the recently featured Scooby-Doo FA had a picture of a dog. hbdragon88 04:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Fan art? Kariteh 11:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Fan art would most likely be considered derivative works, and unauthorized ones at that. — TKD::Talk 20:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Then how about a photo of a Play! concert? Kariteh 22:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
If you focus on any screenshots shown, that'd be a no-no. If you don't, then the relevance of the picture wouldn't be immediately obvious unless it were in a section that specifically describes the concert. — TKD::Talk 01:16, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, what could be considered "free alternatives?" ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 22:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
For video games, not much, unfortunetly. Even a picture of a screenshot on a TV is bogglingly not considered free. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 22:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, this only goes for the main page, right? I mean, we can still put pictures in the articles under fair use, right? ♣ Klptyzm Chat wit' me § Contributions ♣ 22:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is yes, given that there is no other feasible way to illustrate anything about a video game until its copyright expires. — TKD::Talk 01:17, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
How is that "mind boggling"? They spent the money to buy the broadcasting equipment, they have the rights to whatever footage they air. Likewise, if you went to that same event and took your own picture, you have rights to that picture, too. Would you want that stripped away? hbdragon88 04:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
A photo of Mitsuda or one of the developers? Kariteh 07:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking that might work, but the hard part is getting a free photo of one of them considering not many exist. The only shots of Masato Kato I've found are all from official SE publications. Maybe something could be found for a high profile guy, like Hironobu Sakaguchi. Or, we could just carve "Chrono Trigger" into the side of a potato and get it featured status on the Wikimedia Commons. At any rate, I plan on improving FF Chronicles to Good status soon and submitting "Chrono Series" as a featured topic with Judg. --Zeality 16:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hiromichi Tanaka seems to be the easiest to find, but that would only work for Chrono Cross of course. [5] Kariteh 16:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Asking for outsite comments on Gyakuten Saiban 3/Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Trials and Tribulations merger debate

There's a debate whether or not should Gyakuten Saiban 3 and Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Trials and Tribulations should be merged to the latter. Dicussion is here. The debate seems to be whether the games are the same or not, barring localization and platform factors. As both games have the same 'first' copyright date (2004) I hold the view that the games are the same and thus should have only one article. 23:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually the main argument agianst merging states that states that since we cannont prove that the plot of Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Trials and Tribulations will not be sufficently different Gyakuten Saiban 3 placing the plot and character info from the GS3 article into the the trials and tribulation artice is a violation of WP:OR. Maybe trying a discussion on that page is a better idea since a consensus on whether OR applies in this case would probably be helpful. -- 01:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Regions, Ratings, and Release dates (RRR)

  • In infoboxes for various games, at least eight lines are always occupied by ratings and release dates. That is bad: avoid redundancy.
Kittens like clear infoboxes

A clear infobox is paramount for a good article. The infobox is the first thing any reader will see and read, and a bad infobox could make a reader turn away from the article, whether by introducing new questions or getting in the way of reading. New questions such as "What the hell is USK" are not productive when all the reader wants is to read about a game. Infoboxes often extend well into the first or second section, and almost always below the table of contents. Reducing the size of the infobox is good. There is a lot of information that could be left out of the infobox, but for now I will only address the redundant release dates and ratings.

Currently, infoboxes can contain any number of release dates, though a number between two (AOE3) and five (FFX) is most common. Ratings always include ESRB and a European agency (usually USK, ELSPA, BBFC or PEGI) at minimum, and when including Australia (OFLC) and Japan (CERO), this makes for a maximum of seven ratings. Rating collectors might include all 12 ratings in the relevant category.

An example, from the article I am currently working on:

Release date(s) Rating(s)

ESRB: E10+
PEGI: 12+
USK: 12
OFLC (Australia): M

The current practice ("include some") is a compromise - some argue for including every single country, because doing anything else would be geographical bias. It is true that Indian or Chinese ratings, together more than a third of the world population, are rarely included. However, is this a bad thing? Sixteen million people from the Netherlands know no other rating than Kijkwijzer, should it be included too because of that?

Guitar Hero XXX surprisingly features Kiss

It is indeed good to know when a game will be released in one's country. However, I think a better place for details like that is in the article itself, perhaps in the Development section or in the Lead section. One of those sections usually repeats the information in the infobox now anyway. In the above example from Supreme Commander, all dates are within one week. Are these few days of difference worth listing in the infobox? If changed to, for example, February 2007, no information is lost to most readers. When more than a few weeks apart, this could be Q1 2007, or even 2007 if Brunei releases the game in November. The specific dates should be in the article. It must be noted that when the release date itself is notable, an exception should be made. For example, if Chinese censors surprisingly agree to allow Guitar Hero XXX: megapr0n version in China three years after the release of the game, and the New York Times writes about it, the Chinese release date could be included.

Ratings are even more redundant than the release dates, because they are never far apart, except in very special circumstances which would warrant multiple ratings. If every rating organisation rates a game as "Teen" or the local equivalent, why list it as "T" "Teen" "12+" "12+" "12-year" "K-11" "MA-13" "12" - if "Teen" would do? If one rating organisation rates the game differently (such as 14+ or 16, or even XXX), it should be explained in the Reception section. An article like Motion picture rating system could be made to explain the local ratings when a game is rated "Teen", or better - such information could be integrated into Motion picture rating system.

Concluding, a better infobox would be:

Release date(s)

February 2007



This has become more of an essay than a small note — apologies for that. I propose changing the infobox description once there is consensus for a policy change on this subject.

--User:Krator (t c) 14:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I firmly agree with what has been proposed here. Most game articles don't have that problem mainly due to the lack of editors collecting such information, but for more popular, widespread games this can lead to bloated infoboxes containing release dates from countries some people haven't even heard of. I agree that most release dates are more less the same if not a few weeks apart, with some uncommon exceptions that can easily be covered within the article itself, either in the Development section or, if the release dates are staggered enough, a separate Release section. The idea of summarising data like this makes for an easier reading experience instead of being flooded with lots of geographically exclusive data. Readers who are interested in specific pieces of data such as release dates can find out on specialist sites, such as GameFAQs or MobyGames. --Scottie_theNerd 15:20, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide an example of this in action? --Teggles 00:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I have edited the rating part of the infobox of Supreme Commander to reflect the highest (12) and lowest (10) ratings, linking to a table comparing to what ratings those ages have in different countries. The article Video game content rating system could use a lot of work - see my first edit summary there. before after --User:Krator (t c) 21:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for this guide! My kitten was getting confused by the infobox and started batting at it. My kitten wonders if there should be an info box template with fields to fill in that would give a common look between game articles (also the reader would not become confused having to decode different layouts). Meow. DJ Barney 19:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I've actually already seen release sections in articles which can be anything from comparing different versions of the game to talking about notbale updates (is that even possible?). Perhaps the specific release dates have a place in these sections. It would certainly be better than the mosh pit of info we have now.--Clyde (talk) 23:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Audio clips

I'm not sure what license NFPlaceholder.png should come under. There are templates for "Screenshot from a videogame" and "Music clip", but this isn't either of those. It is essentially the audio equivalent of a screenshot but I haven't been able to find any other examples of such clips. I've asked this on the helpdesk and Image Copyright Tags pages, but there haven't been any responses. Does anyone know of any other game articles that have audio clips, so I could see what licenses have been used? Arganoid 19:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see a generic category tag, so I'd use {{Fair use in}}. You might also add it to Category:Fair use sounds. Pagrashtak 18:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Grand Theft Auto task force?

I was thinking about creating a Grand Theft Auto task force. Is anyone interested? .:Alex:. 16:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Scope of task forces

It seems that the current task forces that are focused on a company, like the Capcom, Sega, and Konami taskforces, are pretty inactive. On the other hand, the Devil May Cry task force seems more focused and has been doing good things. The video game images task force has also a clear objective and has been filling the relevant categories and finding images, and adding fair use. Perhaps we should retire some of the inactive task forces and from now on focus on creating task forces with a more limited scope. Any objections? If not I'll go ahead with removing them from the {{WPCVG Sidebar}} and removing the links on the talk pages. JACOPLANE • 2007-04-19 17:06

You could tag them with {{Inactive}} and see if it stays. If so, I'd have no problem with removing their links. Pagrashtak 18:07, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll do that. BTW, I redesigned the sidebar the other day. Does anyone have any suggestions for further improvement? JACOPLANE • 2007-04-19 18:19

I honestly question the need for company-level WikiProjects/task forces. Like WP:NES vs. WP:PCP. PCP is well-focused and has much discussion, while Nintendo seems a bit dead. Okay, it's not that dead, still some talk page topics, but it's not nearly as active as PCP. Of course, when you become too specfiic, that's no good either. I remember the Nintendo Wars WikiProject, for instance. hbdragon88 19:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

In the case of Nintendo, it probably should just go (as it's pretty inactive). Some posts doesn't seem like much to keep it around. Also, if people can: keep on eye on Wikipedia:WikiProject PlayStation. I can imagine it will go the way of many of these taskforces and projects: inactive. Sometimes I wonder why people want taskforces (or whole projects), then when it's made: it has activity for a bit, then nothing. In my opinion: just post the article issues here, and a much wider group of people can help out. Why seperate them, just because they have alot of articles of their own? The video games project is for everything. So it makes more sense just to post here, asking for help and so on. Much more people can help in one project, rather than just splitting into other projects and/or task forces. RobJ1981 20:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I think that the Wikipedia:WikiProject Final Fantasy has demonstrated that a focused group of editors can achieve a great deal. The problem with this WikiProject is that it's almost too generic and therefore has little participation in spite of the large number of participants. Look at the GCOTW: usually less than 10 editors contribute in any given week. Besides, academic studies in business schools have demonstrated that teamwork is usually most efficient in a groupd of 10-20 people.[citation needed] We have over 700 participants here, and those are only the people who have bothered to indicate their participation on their userpage. JACOPLANE • 2007-04-19 20:14
True, our Final Fantasy articles are in great shape, generally. But to be fair, how much of this shall we attribute to the WikiProject, and how much shall we dedicate to the zeal and skill of individual contributors? I'm inclined to think that the latter is by far the important factor here. Large projects like WPVG here are beneficial, in my opinion, in mostly cross-article tasks. We help standardize video game article elements such as the infobox, offer video game-specific style information, etc. Now consider a narrow project like WP:ZELDA, which has around 60 listed participants. That's over four editors per Zelda game in the main series, yet only two of those are featured articles, both of which predate the project (I believe - correct me if I'm wrong). The third Zelda featured article about Link also predates the project. A group with that narrow a focus cannot offer much beyond individual contributions. There is (and should not be) Zelda-specific style guidelines — anything of this nature should cover all video games, and thus come from this project. This, incidentally, is why I have not joined the Zelda project, despite it being my main VG interest. Pagrashtak 05:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

One of the biggest uses of a WikiProject is like a noticeboard, such as WP:CVG/D. I wouldn't necessarily count the usefulness of the said project purely in terms of FAs. For instance, issues on the notability of some character comes up, and people from the WPFF argue about it until something comes out. It's a centralized discussion that can be much more easily followed on one WikiProject talk page instead of a few scattered talk pages. hbdragon88 22:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking at that noticeboard, there is no day with over three entries. Why would each task force need their own deletion noticeboard when they could simply look there? The driving force behind any WikiProject or task force (with the possible exception of projects like the WikiProject Council that do not focus on the article space) should be article improvement. In fact, one could make the argument that a project that shows no discernible impact on improving articles but has editors come out en masse in deletion discussions has an overall negative impact. Pagrashtak 23:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
hbdragon88 was not advocating that every task force should have their own deletion noticeboard. He was trying to point out that within the context of the CVG community, there is a benefit to listing all relevant entries in one central place rather than expecting CVG contributors to go through the AFD entries for every day. I agree that there are a lot of tasks that have very little to do with taking articles to FA that would benefit from more centralised discussion. The images task force is a good example of this. JACOPLANE • 2007-04-24 00:44
I know. The deletion noticeboard is useful for this WikiProject — I was explaining that such boards, if made more specific, would not be so useful for our subprojects or task forces. Pagrashtak 04:03, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

A new big task

Anyone care to help me tackle this big task? The Infobox needed tag is no longer for the talk page, and it belongs on the article (so people can see it, and fix it sooner). A full list is here: Category:Talk pages with misplaced main page templates. While it's not all video games, there is quite a few video game articles that need this change. I believe the category contains a few other misplaced templates: but overall it's for infobox needed. Also, you could just put in the infobox when you can, which would also help out this massive infobox task. RobJ1981 18:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fucksake, this is just a load of work for very little payoff and will make articles even uglier than they are. We have enough article banners already, and a ridiculously ugly "No photo here" image too. This is really going to ugly up a lot of articles for a long time. It's not a big deal either unlike say NPOV and unsourced (which readers should be warned about), but some backroom consistency worry. Do you guys really think it's a good idea? I don't, and there hasn't been much discussion either. I might take this to VP or AN or something. - hahnchen 23:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Chill Rooster :) I tend to agree with you, but no need to get all worked up. Like you said, there hasn't been much discussion yet, so let's have the discussion before we take this to AN/I (in any case most admins who give a shit are watching this page anyway). JACOPLANE • 2007-04-20 23:53
Creating one infobox is better than moving ten templates, if you ask me. So if anyone wants to help out with this task, why not make a few infoboxes rather than moving a bunch of templates? Pagrashtak 06:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)